Forgiving Pitino
The buzz around the Big Blue Nation the last few days has been all about a long-time equipment manager tragically departed and a former coach who went to Kentucky's #1 rival.
What a strange story. It is the story of a humble man who labored, for the most part, in anonymity far behind the scenes at Kentucky basketball. Eventually, his longevity in the position led to him being recognized for what he truly was, despite the blue-collar nature of his employment -- an integral and critical part of the Kentucky program, and a major contributor to its success.
But it is also the story of a brash New Yorker who stormed into Lexington to be crowned the King of the Bluegrass, and even after the nadir of Kentucky's Shame made the seemingly impudent promise, "We will win, and we will win right away." When Kentucky did win right away, despite being left with a team that might not have been able to win at most Division II schools, a legend was born. This young New Yorker was also an indispensable part of Kentucky's resurrection and success, delivering one championship banner to Rupp Arena's hallowed rafters and nearly delivering a second the very next year. That same cocky young man left the Kentucky job eight years later to chase the siren's song of earning millions restoring one of the NBA's great programs, only this time he did not succeed. His failure lead him back to Kentucky, to take over the main rival of the Wildcats, be branded a traitor, and earn the visceral loathing of many UK fans.
Thursday, Rick Pitino gave a requiem for Bill Keightley. If you haven't seen it at Kentucky Sports Radio (or others), the UK website has a transcript here. It was moving and elicited strong emotions from the Big Blue Faithful. It was also a fitting tribute to Keightley from a man Coach Pitino always considered a friend, even after he took over the reigns of a basketball team Mr. Keightley transparently detested (in the competitive sense only, I'm sure). Coach Pitino's commentary was completely fitting for the moment, and drew accolades around the state from Kentucky fans and media types alike, as well as calls for fans of the Big Blue to forgive Rick Pitino the unforgivable transgression he made against Kentucky fans -- leading our most bitter rival into battle against us.
While Mr. Keightley's passing was the occasion, this article is not about that. I have said my goodbyes to Mr. Wildcat, and I will never watch another Kentucky game that I do not see him there at the head of the bench. This story is about the rift between Rick Pitino and the Big Blue Nation, and an examination of the love/hate relationship that has developed there. It is fitting and right that we look at this issue, because Bill Keightley had to face it much more often and more forcefully than any of us did, and thus his passing presents the perfect opportunity for commentary. Here was a man who's undisguised loathing of the Cardinals was legendary, yet who's affection for the coach of that program was able to withstand even that most deadly of insults. Mr. Keightley came to terms with the fact that his friend had, in a way, betrayed the team he loved and dedicated most of his adult life to. The term "betrayal" is certainly a bit strong to describe the relationship in question, since coaching a rival team is certainly not on par, in a real sense, with what we generally consider "betrayal" to mean. But when we consider the extraordinary passion this state has for basketball, "betrayal" is as apt a description as any.
Personally, I have no animus toward Rick Pitino. He is a fine coach and a good man, as far as I know. I have listened to his talks, and he is an outstanding motivational speaker. Of all the coaches Kentucky has had in my life, he is by far the most eloquent and persuasive, and loves to get in front of a crowd. He has no fear of words, and no fear of failure before thousands or even millions. I have no doubt whatever that Pitino meant every word he spoke about Bill Keightley, and that every single emotion expressed in his speech was completely heartfelt and genuine. Keightley and Pitino were friends, and that friendship did not end when they became members of a rivalry as bitter as any in sports.
I have also not forgotten that Rick Pitino coached Kentucky to a national championship in 1996, and to the national finals the following year. But for an unfortunate injury to Derrick Anderson, I believe Pitino would have delivered two national championship banners to Rupp Arena's rafters instead of just one. He was and is a great coach, and despite protestations to the contrary, represents the archetype for most Kentucky fans of what the UK coach should be -- fast-paced basketball, eloquent off the court, great recruiter and nationally respected. The fact that he now coaches a team almost universally despised by Kentucky fans is an intolerable provocation, and it is entirely understandable that many Kentucky fans have come to detest Pitino almost as much as the program he coaches.
So unlike John Clay, whom I deeply respect, Matt Jones and other well-intended calls for everyone to let bygones be bygones, I will not join them. Bill Keightley was a personal friend of Pitino, and friendships mean a lot more than fan-coach relationships. It is laudable and entirely praiseworthy that Mr. Wildcat was able to overcome his partisanship, but it is another thing to ask a fan, who knew Pitino only by his coaching and public utterances, to do so. Even though I admire Coach Pitino's accomplishments as a coach and a man, and am duly impressed with his wonderful remarks for Bill Keightley, I have no lens of personal friendship through which to view him. While I am pleased and thankful for his contribution to the Big Blue Nation's mourning of Mr. Wildcat's passing, Pitino didn't make his remarks for me, or for any other Kentucky fans -- he made them for his friend, Bill Keightley. That is right, and just, and as it should be.
In the final analysis, I appreciate the warm feelings many have for Coach Pitino's comments at Mr. Wildcat's memorial. The words were moving, and touching, and delivered with complete honesty. But what Rick Pitino represents to Kentucky fans is anathema -- a former beloved Kentucky coach who is helping a bitter rival to the detriment of the Wildcats. Make no mistake, those two things are completely intertwined -- anything that raises Louisville men's basketball up also drags Kentucky men's basketball down -- that is how rivalries work. They work that way in recruiting, and in national perception, and in competition for championships and games. Should we give Pitino some love because of his wonderful comments about Mr. Wildcat? You bet, and I have and will continue to do so. But will I cheer for Rick Pitino, or his Cardinal team? Well, look at it this way: in my ledger of equities, we have one moment of kindness toward a dear friend plus eight years of successfully coaching Kentucky to set against leaving Kentucky for greed, glory and eventual failure plus resurfacing in the college ranks to coach at Kentucky's most bitter rival.
On my balance sheet, the numbers come up red every time.
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125 comments
Comments
Forgiving Pitino
by westh on Apr 5, 2008 2:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I can appreciate that ...
But he is the Louisville coach. I have no more love for him in that capacity than I do for the entire Louisville program. I'm sorry if that bothers you, but that's the way I feel.
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 5, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forgiving Pitino
by String Music on Apr 5, 2008 3:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Louisville and Pitino
by oldkentucky on Apr 5, 2008 3:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Strongly Disagree
Not really. When UL makes the Elite 8 and UK loses in the first round it only highlights the chasm that exists in the health of each program.
UL being good just adds another school UK has to recruit against to get the best athletes. Take a look at the two football programs; since UK has enjoyed success the last few years they have become a recruiting force in Jefferson County, as well as having near carte blanche throughout the state.
In my opinion, the idea that the "attention" UL brings to the state is good for UK is flawed in every conceivable way.
The absolute best thing that could happen for UK is that UL drops basketball and football. I know that will never happen, so the next best thing is for the Cards to stink up the joint on a yearly basis.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm afraid ...
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 5, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I believe that Louisville doing well is an
by bluegrassgal on Apr 5, 2008 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great comment ...
I really appreciate posters who respectfully disagree. That is what this blog is all about.
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 5, 2008 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Louisville
Not the same for Louisville. It does not benefit us whatsoever if they are good. As many others have posted, it hurts us for recruiting and it takes attention from UK and places it on UofL. The argument has not logic. Do you think Alabama football fans are happy that Auburn is a good team and has beaten them the last 5 meetings. Living in AL right now, I can mot assuredly say that is not true. Do you think Tennessee is cheering Memphis right now? My guess is no. I could go on.
I will say that I respect everyone's opinion, and if you claim to have equal love for UK & UofL, then so be it. I think you are misguided, but I have nothing against you.
by jug on Apr 6, 2008 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NC
NC hates Duke
It will always be a war between them. Collectively the state gets attention and their collective brands make one large recruiting bug zapper. Once they hit the state, the two can go to war to get them to sign.
I see the same in Kentucky. We will always hate them and they us BUT collectively it is huge is both are good. The Game is bigger each year and more kids watch it.
Recently we have only tussled a few times for recruits really as Pitino heads a little more north and BCG is going west more and more.
I hate the whole state of NC (basketball. Actually love the state)and Puke and NC getting all the love. I want it focused here. UK, UL, WKU. Screw NC.
by wilson452 on Apr 7, 2008 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He seems to regret it
It's one thing coaching for Louisville and turning your nose down at Kentucky. It's another thing to miss the place you used to call home and regret leaving. When Pitino first took the Louisville job, I think it was the former. Now, after some time I am sure he regrets it and misses UK.
Believing that, I can't be mad at him any more than I can be mad at Pelphrey for coaching Arkansas. I think either of them would be coaching the Wildcats if they could, so I can't slight them because they're not.
I do think Mr. Keightly taught us a lesson though, we should appreciate Pitino for what he did here. Despite making some bad choices, he did us proud enough to hang his "jersey" in Rupp, so he's a member of the Kentucky family in my book, and we should treat him as such.
by EEWildcat on Apr 5, 2008 3:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
When he is no longer the Louisville coach ...
:-)
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 5, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't Agree More!
by MartinGolf9 on Apr 7, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lasting impressions
He also is not a native from Kentucky and I think he was of the mistaken impression that Louisville as a school "is in Kentucky". I think he underestimated his own feelings and connection to Kentucky.
I give him credit for his appearance and his comments to his old friend. Sorry....he stays on my list.
by CAWebb on Apr 5, 2008 5:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Michigan and Vegas were....
I've read numersous articles that stated that he was ready to take the Michigan job, but Jurich called.
I've also read that his wife is the one who told him he was crazy for not taking the UL job because of the anticipated reaction of the UK fans. Paraphrasing here; you're going to not take the UL job because once every two years you have to visit Rupp Arena?
If I remember correctly he wasn't super interested in the UNLV opening because he wasn't crazy about living in Las Vegas.
Personally, I feel he made the right career call. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, or him.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 5:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ken, I totally agree
"Personally, I feel he made the right career call. But that doesn't mean I have to like it, or him."
I don't begrudge him his choice to go to Louisville, and even find it rather flattering that he liked Kentucky so much that he couldn't stay away. But that doesn't mean I have to like him...in a "rivalry" sense. It isn't personal. I by no means dislike the man personally--how could I, I don't even know him--but I don't buy that it somehow makes UK fans vindictive that they root against him extra-hard now. He's too smart a man not to have known what he was doing when he took the Louisville job. He knew better than anyone how passionate we are about basketball, and how we'd view him taking up with our biggest rival. He had a decision to make and he made it, and I also believe it was likely the RIGHT decision--he did what he felt was best for his career and for his family, and had to take the consequence of knowing that Kentucky fans will forevermore call him "traitor" and boo him at every opportunity.
Rivalry is just part of sport--and a FUN part to boot!--and I don't see how it's in any way "mean" for UK fans to root against Pitino/U of L. Are Red Sox fans "mean" by booing Johnny Damon? I don't think so. Damon gets paid millions, and surely is man enough to take that booing as the part of the job that it is. If there were no hated rivalries, sport would be far less interesting. Pitino's a big boy, I'm pretty sure he doesn't spend a lot of time curled up weeping over the fact that, gasp, sometimes people boo him!
He was a great, great coach for us for sure, but I also don't buy that we are obligated to be "grateful" to him for winning here. I certainly appreciate the way he did his job, but that's what it was--a JOB for which he was incredibly well compensated, both in money and in adoration. It wasn't a charity mission he did out of the goodness of his heart. And neither was it a one-way street--UK was pretty damn good for Rick Pitino too.
So, yes, I really did appreciate hearing Pitino's rather moving comments at Mr. Keightley's service. And yes, it is laudable that Mr. Keightley kept his close relationship with his friend even after he took the Louisville position. And no, I don't hold any hard feelings against Pitino the person. But Pitino the basketball coach? HIM I will continue to root against because it's a RIVALRY.
One more thing: like bluegrassgal, I also believe that Lousivlle being good does not hurt, and actually ultimately helps Kentucky basketball. God knows I never actually want them to win any specific game, but I do believe that in theory, the stronger we both are, the more Kentucky (the state) can hold down our rightful spot among the top basketball hotbeds in the country. Think of Duke and Carolina: to me, they have a symbiotic relationship. The success of one only elevates the success of the other, as they're so joined together in the public eye. Their rivalry, so trumpeted by ESPN as it is, is interesting only because both are strong, and it benefits BOTH of them to have such a well-publicized clash. People who barely know anything about basketball have heard of their their rivalry and watch their games against each other. Certainly, it's sickening when Louisville is markedly better than we are, as was the case this past year. But in the big picture, I think it does both programs a world of good to be part of a healthy, competitive, headline-garnering rivalry--and that only happens when both programs are strong.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
blue kentucky girl
by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 9:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't have to like him..
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino should be praised...
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 5:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Uh oh....
by BigSkyCat on Apr 5, 2008 6:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe so..
I have been a UK fan nearly 30 years and it is things like the "Pitino hate" that embarass me as a UK fan. I wouldn't blame Pitino for shouting out, "UK, I delivered you championships, recruited the best players, handed a championship to Tubby and led UK's program with dignity and honor. If that is not enough, than you can kiss my cardnial red arse!" Get over it my Big Blue brethren, Pitino EARNED our praise. Sutton and Tubby certainly did not.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 7:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Don't Hate Pitino
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 8:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I love Tubby
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 8:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1990-97 Or 1998-2007
UK had 4th Most W and 4th Most NCAA W in 1998-2007 timeframe. Duke, Kansas, UConn had more W. Duke, UConn, Mich St had more NCAA W.
2nd, 4th or 4th, 4th.
Both seem pretty near the top to me.
The facts:
KEEPING ELITE COMPANY
Top (men's) Div I college basketball programs during the last 10 years (1998 thru 2007) are:
- Duke 302-53 and 28-9 NCAA
- Kansas 276-72 and 20-10 NCAA
- Connecticut 264-78 and 25-6 NCAA
- Kentucky 263-83 and 23-9 NCAA
- Gonzaga 263-69 and 12-9 NCAA
- Illinois 249-90 and 16-9 NCAA
- Florida 248-86 and 22-7 NCAA
- Syracuse 248-92 and 13-7 NCAA
- Arizona 246-80 and 18-10 NCAA
- Michigan St. 245-92 and 24-9 NCAA
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 8:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So?
Comparing Tubby to Pitino is like comparing Switzer to Jimmy Johnson, it is laughable.
Here is how meaningless your stats are; Gonzaga is ranked higher than Florida yet we all know that they pale in comparison to Florida. # of wins in a season is the most meaningless statistic in sports.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 8:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Florida Excelled In 2006 And 2007
I showed 2 stats. You ignored NCAA W.
Duke 28, UCOnn 25, Mich St 24, UK 23, Fla 22 (NCAA W) in those 10 seasons.
Tubby averages 72% career and 69% NCAA games.
Pitino averages 73% career and 74% NCAA games.
Tubby has 9 career Sweet 16 appearances.
Pitino has 8 career Sweet 16 appearances.
Each has 1 NCAA title.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 8:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but...
To compare his time here and Pitino's time here strictly by the numbers like this surely doesn't begin to tell the whole story, as the program was in truly awful shape when Pitino arrived, and was in great shape when Tubby came. It is impossible for me, the Smith fan that I am, to see how his reign could be considered as successful as Pitino's.
At the same time...as illogical as it seems, Pitino probably DID have the more beneficial position to enter--to come in when expectations were much lower, and then to exceed them wildly. He could do no wrong after that. The position Tubby walked into was unenviable and nearly no-win: to come in when the program was on a historic high and expectations were through the roof--it was inevitable that it would slip eventually to some degree, no matter who was coaching, Pitino, Tubby, or whoever.
Bottom line, in my opinion both are fine coaches who did well by our program, but it is difficult indeed to make a convincing case that Tubby was as successful as Pitino was.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2008 8:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Didn't Do That
Compared 1998-2007 UK/Tubby with all other Div I teams. (4th most W, 4th most NCAA W)
Compared Pitino/Tubby career (not just UK) records overall and NCAA tourney results.
Adolph Rupp never came close to his 1948, 49, 51 results (3 NCAA titles in 4 years) the next 20 years at UK.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 9:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
blue kentucky girl
by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 9:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK Coaches
Hall won SEC in 1st year and made FF in 3rd year but NC in 6th year.
Sutton won SEC in 1st year. Elite 8 in 1st year.
Pitino "won" SEC (best W-L record but ineligible) in 2nd year. Won SECT in 3rd year and made FF in 4th year but NC in 7th year.
Tubby won SEC, SECT, made FF, and won NC in 1st year.
All 5 prior UK coaches had great success within 3 years. Pitino did what they did, in a similar timeframe.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Meaningful statistics..
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 6, 2008 8:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby Beat Pitino 4 Of 6 (From 2002 Through 2007)
Pitino's team left in 1996 and 1997. No full-time starters remained. No All-SEC players remained. No double digit (10+ ppg) scorers remained. 6 of the 1998 Wildcats did play college basketball AT ALL in 1997.
Tubby has 29 W in NCAA and 9 career Sweet 16.
Pitino has 35 W in NCAA and 8 career Sweet 16.
Pitino had 22 NCAA W and 17 SECT W at UK.
Tubby had 23 NCAA W and 20 SECT W at UK.
Pitino has won 73% of his career games.
Tubby has won 72% of his career games.
Both have won 1 NCAA title. Tubby has won 7 conference titles. Pitino has won 4 conference titles.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 8:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
true
by UKWildCatFanatic on Apr 6, 2008 11:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK In 1996 & 97 Than 2006 & 2007
Pitino 81% overall and 81% NCAA.
Tubby 76% overall and 72% NCAA.
UK 76% all-time and 69% NCAA.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby...
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 8:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
pitino got a program in probation, while tubby got a team coming off two straight championship appearances.
and since you just listed data, and added nothing else, let's see if i get this right. you're saying tubby was a better recruiter than pitino, since we had two top 15 classes to end the tubby era and two NR classes to end the pitino era.
the thing is that i'm sure at some point you've posted numbers that show that how high your recruiting rank is doesn't always mean success. just take a look at UK's '04s...weren't they the #1 class? so your numbers here mean very little.
by UKWildCatFanatic on Apr 7, 2008 10:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Typical..
To try to equate the success of a coach who has taken THREE different programs to the Final Four to a coach who in 20 years has never taken a team he recruited to the Final Four is absurd.
Pitino is a superstar, hall-of-fame coach who Tubby owes his fame,success and the millions of $ he stole from UK to.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Alright ...
Keep the discussion respectful, please. Let's not brand Smith a thief or start assailing others as apologists. Everyone has a right to his/her opinion, and of course others have a right to disagree.
But let's keep the discussion respectful of each other's person and opinions.
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 7, 2008 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting...
Hell, it is your blog, so you can do as you want with it, but that come across very hypocritical.
I will never be respectful of lies.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lie? Hypocrisy?
Are his figures wrong? If so, correct him, but lies require a deliberate attempt to deceive. I don't see that. Something can be factually incorrect without being a lie.
But even if what you said was literally true instead of just a difference of opinion, he didn't suggest Pitino was a thief or a liar or or anything else. You called Smith a thief and now you are calling 40yr a liar. Those are not the kind of words one uses in polite disagreement.
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 7, 2008 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nailed it shut and danced on the lid
In fairness to 40, I think he is defining "success" strictly by the numbers. As you say, the numbers don't tell the whole story - like the unreal streak of bad luck Tubby had in recent years, or the NBA-jumpers, etc.
Funny how some people can spew such hateful stuff and then claim to respect the person they just crapped all over - and the team that person represented so well for so long.
Well reasoned and well written! thanks!
by Way2blue4SorryFairWeatherFew on Apr 7, 2008 8:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The golden era...
I miss him on the sideline and a part of me was hurt that he was in the building and not our coach. He's a great spinner and he deserves the approbation of Slick Rick but then there is the part of him he shares with all of us who frequent the page; he also has a passion for the game, nearly an obsession and it is there that the Yankee from the big city and the rest of us in Kentucky can find a common ground.
He brought us our second Golden Era, those of us who weren't old enough for Rupp will be telling our kids of sitting in Rupp Arena and watching the '93 or '96 team. He is responsible for that bit of joy and for that I will never begrudge him for taking the Louisville job. We may never see another Golden Era in our lifetime but we do have the memories of his teams.
by trich on Apr 5, 2008 6:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Way off base Truzenzuzex..
Also, to say Pitino "leaving Kentucky for greed, glory and eventual failure" is again absurd. He was already wealthy, he reached the pinacle of college basketball coaching and positioned UK as the dominate program. There was no better time to leave UK. You should thank Pitino for the way he left UK. I hope he NEVER wins a championship at UL, but I thank him for being UK's white night.
This whole hate Pitino, despise Pitino, calling him traitor Pitno is childish.. time to get over it and time to move on Big Blue Nation.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 7:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Interesting point of view
I couldn't agree more....but UK already has plenty of competition in UT, Florida, Arkansas Miss. St. and the other SEC teams. Along with Duke, UNC, Kansas, and UCLA. Surely that's enough competition for anyone without adding the Weak Sisters of the Poor down I-64.
You wrote: "Pitino at UL has actually brought excitement to a rivalry UK was dominating and that had become very stale."
If "stale" means UK continues to dominate the rivalry, then give me "stale" every day of week and twice on Sunday. I have no interest in the game even being competitve, much less exciting.
You wrote: That it is "absurd" to opine that Pitino left UK because of "greed...".
You wrote: "He was already wealthy."
Pitino is on record as saying he saw the Boston situation as a chance to secure his families financial security...forever. You are right, he was already wealthy, so how much money does one guy need? I would be interested to know if towards the end of his tenure at Boston when he looked pale, and emaciated, if he thought the extra jingle in his pocket was worth the nightmare he lived through.
I think though, tha he left mostly because it was his dream to coach in the NBA, and he was presented with a plan in which he had total control. Surely, very tempting indeed. But of course, it was the "total control" that in the end, tightened the noose around his neck.
I don't blame Pitino for leaving UK, and there are many more who feel as I do. I do though have a real problem with him returning to coach UL. In case you haven't been paying attention, the UK/UL rivalry is one of the most heated and hate filled in all of sports. To expect UK fans to forgive and forget is to underestimate the passion said fans hold for the Program.
At the same time, I do not begrudge folks such as yourself who hold no ill will towards Pitino. It is certainly an issue that reasonable people can disagree. So I would appreciate it if you would keep your invectives to yourself. I'm not trying to persuade anyone on this issue, but if you feel the need to refer to me as "childish" and urge me to "move on" bring on the Atlas Van and sippy cup.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 9:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think ...
There is nothing absurd about my comment that Pitino left for greed and glory. I'm not casting aspersions on either motivation, particularly. Every man has a right to his motivation, and I am not necessarily of the opinion that either greed or glory are bad things, but neither are they particularly noble. Pitino flirted with the NBA every single year he was her except his first one or two. He couldn't wait for a job to come along in the NBA where he could make himself a coaching legend, and parlay that into tens of millions.
I agree with you that Rick Pitino resurrected our program in record time from probation, and I will always admire him for that. But that does not change the fact that Pitino used Kentucky like a hammer to get what he wanted in the NBA. I personally believe it was his intention from about his fifth year on, and maybe before. That speculation does not change the good things he did here, nor taint his tenure. But it doesn't make me feel good about how he treated us in the end.
And I agree that hating and despising Pitino is not really all that mature, but never fear, I have neither in my heart for him. But I see Louisville as the opposition, and as long as Pitino coaches the opposition, he is one of them. So my appreciation is necessarily, and I believe quite reasonably, mitigated and on hold.
The Big Blue Nation is not of one opinion on Rick Pitino. Many, like me, oppose him strongly because of his implicit abandonment of UK by coaching it's most bitter rival. It does not undo the good he did, but as long as he is in that position, he will hear no cheers from me.
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 6, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He will hear cheers from me..
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 6, 2008 8:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's Right Down I-64
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 8:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Two NC?
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1998
It is ok 40yroldcatfan.. Tubby is a good coach. You cannot have all those 20 win seasons and not be a good coach. But, you cannot be a great coach and be incapable of taking YOUR team (at least one in 20 years of coaching) to a Final Four.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree strong UL = bad
Louisville just needs to be good enough to win a few games in the Big East, but bad enough that they only beat Kentucky AT MOST every 1 out of 6 years or so. Otherwise, it can affect recruiting. Consider a player the caliber of Rajon Rondo, who actually wanted to go to Louisville to play for Pitino (but Pitino was after Sebastian Telfair, so UK got a Chris Lofton-style Rondo commit, heh). Even for those of who you don't like Rondo's UK career, you have to admit he's doing pretty well for himself in the NBA. Rondo or no, UK needs to have first dibs on all the top recruits in the state (and out of the state, for that matter!).
I believe Pitino has remorse and for that I don't dislike him anymore. However, I'm still not for a strong UofL at all. Our ACC home-and-home series is tough enough (Maryland when they were great, and now UNC) We also have enough strong teams to play in UNC, Duke, UCLA, and Kansas who are good every year, hopefully we only meet one of them in the tournament. We don't need any more tough teams to play, we need to be the toughest so we can get back to our rightful place of dominating the SEC and ultimately hang up some NCAA banners.
And forget parity, give me blowout city any day of the week.
by EEWildcat on Apr 6, 2008 9:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
U of L Was Strong In 1970's And 1980's
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/careersteals.html Double Rondo's 2-year numbers for 4-year comparison. RR would be #1 in Steals.
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/careerassists.html Again double 2-year to get 4-year comparison. RR would be #2 in Assists.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
1970s & 1980s: 1 National Championship for UK, 0 (I think!) runners-up.
Weak UofL:
1990s: 2 national Championships, 1 runner-up.
(even though UofL beat UK in 1998, they didn't make the field of 64)
That's 2 times the National Championships in 1/2 the time, so 4x as successful.
I'm not willing to look up any Duke and UNC records. 8')
I agree about Rondo, he was a great talent, helped the team, and put up some great numbers. It's a shame the 2005-2006 (and 2007 for those of you who think Rondo might have stayed another year if he was happier) teams underachieved.
by EEWildcat on Apr 6, 2008 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK In 1970's And 1980's
Top 10 program in 80's with 1 FF but tailed off the latter half of 80's.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino is a slick one...
Personally, I don't care if it's rec league kiddies tossing the roundball or a battle between the Chinese National Team and the Zimbabwe Heat (not a real team, but there should be one.)
Coach P knew that when his time at Boston was coming to a bad end no matter what kind of spin he put on it, he had to go somewhere where everyone would know his name. (sorry, bad Cheers & Boston reference) Voila! UofL has a new AD who is ready to lose their famous but recently unsuccessful coach. Being a new AD he was kinda insured against job loss, i.e. fans burning flags in effigy with the firing (release?) of Crum.
What better way to get instant name recognition than to go back to the state where his name means something. See, here's the bit where the psychology of PR comes in handy. It doesn't matter what emotion you arise from a populace necessarily, you just need to get them to feel strongly enough about something to ACT.
By going to Louisville Coach P has successfully enabled himself to stay a household commodity in the community he loves most. He managed to send a shiver down the spine of the entire Big Blue Nation and wake the Cardinal faithful from a long sleep like Snow White. Not only does Coach P get to coach basketball in the state where basketball is king but he also gets to dabble in his hobby, horeseracing.
You know he wasn't going to tell Tubby to take a hike and thanks for keeping his seat warm. Going to another school was never an option. He wouldn't get as much recognition or stay in the limelight as much as he did by coaching at Louisville. Jurich could also be mentioned as having a good idea what the move would do to the state and both teams.
I was saddened to see Pitino go, didn't understand why he wanted to go back to the NBA when his first go around sucked. Sure it was the Knicks but come-on, is the UK head coaching job too big for even HIS ego? If you love the game of basketball so much how could you leave a program that has such a passionate fanbase the state government shuts down if there is an "important game" on? How could you leave a program that you brought back to life and ?
I don't think he planned it that way, obviously he would've liked to have gotten a few NBA Championships before returning to the college game, maybe even an attaboy from Big Red. I seem to think it was a matter of timing and true PR genius at work.
Love him or hate him he knew what he was doing when he came back to Kentucky to coach Louisville. He's got his limelight. Or in this case ultravioletlight.
I just want UK to beat him everytime to remind him of the legacy he lost.
by bluecrip on Apr 5, 2008 7:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pitino with the Knicks
The year before he took over they won only 24 games. Pitino's second year they won their division.
If my memory is correct, he left the Knicks because he did not get along with the GM.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 11:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 Stints With NY Knicks
Head coach there in 1988 and 89. Patrick Ewing in his prime. Kenny Walker, too.
90-82 those 2 seasons. Decent, not more.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 11:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino/Knicks
A bit better than decent, don't you think?
by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 11:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
By the way....
Put into context: NY had won 23 and 24 games the two years prior to Pitino becoming head coach. They then won 38 and 52 games with him. After he left they won 45 and then 39 games.
Also a huge reason he went from 38 to 52 wins was the trade of Bill Cartwright for Charles Oakley.
I love Sky, but he was never anything more than a role player in the Association.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 6, 2008 12:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
95-82 Counting Playoffs (My Bad, 95 W Not 90)
But 5-8 in playoffs.
The team's luck changed in the 1987-88 season with the selection of point guard Mark Jackson in the draft. Combined with Ewing's consistently stellar play, the Knicks made the playoffs with a record of 38-44, where they lost to the Celtics in the first round. The team would do better the next season as the team traded backup C Bill Cartwright for PF Charles Oakley before the season started and then posted a 52-30 record. In the playoffs, they defeated the 76ers in the 1st round before losing to the Chicago Bulls in the Eastern Conference semi-finals.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 12:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And Bill Cartwright Helped Bulls Win 3 Titles
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 12:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cartwright
by UKWildCatFanatic on Apr 6, 2008 1:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh, Yes, He Did
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Need Edit Feature
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
trade
by UKWildCatFanatic on Apr 6, 2008 11:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not a big deal, but....
The playoff series win versus the Sixers in '89 was the Knicks first series win since the '83-'84 season.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 6, 2008 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My Math Error
Decent, not more.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dave DeBusschere
by Ken Howlett on Apr 6, 2008 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't forget the Human Victory Cigar
by Way2blue4SorryFairWeatherFew on Apr 7, 2008 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spring 2001
Didn't happen but almost did.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 8:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That is not true..
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 5, 2008 8:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Look ...
I see all kinds of people who claim to know things. I may not agree with them, and they may be wrong, but that doesn't necessarily make it a lie.
If you have knowledge to the contrary, I would love to see it. If you know something is inaccurate, correct it and provide support, or insist that he provide support for his assertion.
I myself don't take his statement at face value, but I can't prove otherwise. That doesn't make him a liar or me a fool, it just means that I am not convinced that his statement is accurate. If he wants to back it up with proof, fine, but absent that, I choose to believe he is likely to be mistaken in this case.
But being mistaken is not the same thing as lying. Calling people liars is a strong accusation that should not be made lightly. Proof is required, not just of inaccuracy, but of deliberate, willful deception. Unless you have that proof, don't use that word.
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 7, 2008 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's Absolutely True
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 9:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Re: FortyYear
Hell, when Bobby Petrino met with Auburn officials only 3 or 4 people knew about it, and one of them was Petrino himself, but it was splashed all over the front of the CJ for a week.
Secrets such as that are nearly impossible to keep out of print.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 5, 2008 11:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It Happened
Believe it or don't, up 2 U.
It WAS in print (in early 2001).
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was in print?
by Ken Howlett on Apr 6, 2008 2:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll See If I Can Google It Up
That's where the golf course meeting took place. Pitino, Ivy, and 10 or 15 Big $ UK boosters.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 6:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Laughable...
Being a major booster to UK and having.. let's say a working relationship with Pitino.. I can say with certainty that what 40yrcatfan is saying is not true.. but the internet and open blog sites allow people to lie and spread rumors..
south florida newspaper.. hahahahahahahahahaha
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 6, 2008 8:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It Absolutely IS True
Without ANY doubt. I personally know 3 people who were there.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 8:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This week on Mutual of Omaha's Wild Kingom...
*goes to get some popcorn*
by EEWildcat on Apr 6, 2008 9:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hilarious
by UKWildCatFanatic on Apr 7, 2008 12:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
awards
If Tru gave out some sort of ASoB posting awards,--best, worst, funniest, most statistical, most endearing.....you get the idea, this one would surely get my vote for the funniest!
by BigSkyCat on Apr 7, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Glad everyone is amused!
Foresaw this one getting a bit nasty and thought I'd try some levity to defuse it. For my next trick I'll stop a charging caribou using only my pinkie.
by EEWildcat on Apr 7, 2008 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone Amused!
Thanks!
by kykat51 on Apr 7, 2008 2:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon now.
10+ boosters? Seriously, how could that many people, especially boosters, many of which like to throw their weight around and impress with their "inside knowledge", keep something like this quiet for 7 years?
So a "south Florida" newspaper ran a story about this, yet no Kentucky newspaper picked up on it? Are you serious? Every sports section in Kentucky would have had it splashed across the front pages in big, bold type: PITINO AND IVY ATTEMPT LARCENY!
Now, would I believe that a few boosters got together and talked about this happening? Yes. I can definetly fathom that, but not a concerted, organized effort involving Larry Ivy and Rick Pitino.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 7, 2008 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Send Me An E-Mail
It ultimately got Ivy fired by UK. Thankfully.
Ivy, Pitino, and 10+ boosters (about 15). Yes.
Pitino was part of the plan. Yes.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 6:59 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
FortyYear
I welcome any info you might be able to offer.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 7, 2008 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Will Do
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 6:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ken, it is obvious..
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Apr 7, 2008 8:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just Stating Facts
Thankfully so.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I forgave Rick
by cardsfan84 on Apr 5, 2008 10:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
More Fun To Beat Him (At Louisville)
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 5, 2008 10:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pitino
by UKats on Apr 6, 2008 12:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pelphrey
by Ken Howlett on Apr 6, 2008 12:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amazing
When he took the Louisville job he did not turn down the UK job. That would be a huge difference. This is sick.
by modcpa on Apr 6, 2008 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Who doesn't understand
Rooting against him on the court is not the same as not respecting him as a coach and a person. It's just sports, dang! Rivalries are a big part of what makes it fun.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 6, 2008 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK Did An Incredible Job For Pitino Also
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haven't Read ANYONE Saying P Didn't Do Well 4 UK
I can't think of one.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 10:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jumping to Football...
by sleepytimetea on Apr 6, 2008 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nick Saban?
I don't think so.
Tay Baker coached UC then XU but he's not an icon.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 6, 2008 6:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
i don't know how we determine exactly what an...
by sleepytimetea on Apr 6, 2008 8:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Spurrier...
by bluenva on Apr 6, 2008 9:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"they're" instead of "their"
by sleepytimetea on Apr 6, 2008 10:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus,
by sleepytimetea on Apr 7, 2008 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mike Montgomery
Montgomery's journey to Stanfords hated rival is nearly identical to Pitino's to UL.
by Ken Howlett on Apr 7, 2008 12:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My thoughts on Pitino...
It was a betrayal of sorts to come back to UofL. I agree with you, but I also think it says a lot about the Commonwealth of KY. It adds a bit more of a twist in the rivalry, and makes it all the sweeter if we beat Louisville, but I'm pretty much over him going there.
He is no longer our coach and although I wish him nothing but long life and good health, on the hardwood, he is an enemy.
by jug on Apr 6, 2008 12:56 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
From all the accountants...
by cpacat on Apr 7, 2008 1:49 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of balance sheets ...
Yech. Too many debits where there should be credits, and vice versa.
:-)
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 7, 2008 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ridiculous
I'm not trying to completely throw anyone under the bus but between the guy who "knows Bobby Perry" and someone who along with an obscure Fla newspaper has first hand knowledge of an attempt to oust Tubby by RP and some boosters, this stuff is getting out of hand.
As far as how people should feel towards Rick Pitino, to each his own. The author isn't trying to say if you like UK, you should only feel this way. He is simply stating his feelings about RP and giving the whats and whys of how he came to see it that way. Draw your own damn conclusions after that but for god sakes refrain from crucifing someone else for having an opinion that differs from yours.
As for me, as previously stated, I HATED when the guy ran out on Kentucky. I honestly feel he is the only coach that could have got the program up off the mat in as short a time as he did. That being said, he bolted, no one forced him out and it's undeniable that in doing so, he burned bridges with a large portion of the fanbase. He then compounded the problem by taking up the reigns at UK's INSTATE rival. Does anyone here think coach k would ever take a position with unc or d. smith would have ever jumped ship to go to duke. I don't think so either.
Think whatever you want about the man, Lord knows everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I hold no hatred for him on a personal level, but I will never root for him to be sucessful as the head coach of the louisville cardinals.
by wldcatsfreak on Apr 7, 2008 3:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Followed this thread too
Hate?...anyone or anything? I thought at one time in my life I hated my ex-husband because of his abuse to me and my chidren...and then I thought the same about my ex-son-in-law because he tried to kill my daughter...but in the long run, hate is a very strong emotion, and if one has ever experienced true love with another spouse, family, friends...hate ceases to exist.
That is all I want to say.
by kykat51 on Apr 7, 2008 7:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WOW
Way to put things in perspective. Much respect!
by wldcatsfreak on Apr 7, 2008 7:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kansas, Cincinnati (To Name 2 Examples)
UC was on Tony Yates NCAA probation in 1989 but Huggins soon had them in their first FF in 30 years.
I didn't hate Pitino, then or now. Only a fool would turn down $40 million from the Celtics in 1997. Pitino is no fool.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 7:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am tired of this
And I hope Tru will shut down this thread...I for one am out of here!
by kykat51 on Apr 7, 2008 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rupp, Hall, Sutton, And Tubby
The South Florida incident occurred. Larry Ivy got fired (ultimately) as a result of it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 7, 2008 6:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Got yer back, 40
BTW, the silly arguments about 1998 are just laughable. Everyone knows Rick would not have won it all in 1998. No way. I still don't know how he had no answer for silly Simon in 1997. If nothing else, stick the Enforcer Magloire on him. Still think someone may have been paid to throw that game to Arizona. Ivy? Good riddance, too.
by Way2blue4SorryFairWeatherFew on Apr 7, 2008 8:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I've had enuf!
Please keep it to your e-mail.
by kykat51 on Apr 7, 2008 9:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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