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Kentucky Basketball 2007-08: The End of the Line

I decided to give myself an evening before putting my fingers back on the keyboard to talk about this year's version of the Wildcats, who fell to Marquette University yesterday 74-66.  It may seem routine, but to me, the end of a basketball season is a momentous thing.  Around the Bluegrass, we live and breathe this sport, so when most of our rooting interest is suddenly taken from us, it is a bit like I imagine withdrawal from a mild drug addiction would be.  Suddenly, it is the post-season for your team, and there are no more games to play and no more brass rings to grasp.

As usual, the very first thing I want to do is congratulate the Marquette Golden Eagles on an outstanding ball game.  I was very impressed with their effort and their heady play, and Tom Crean had a great game plan for beating Kentucky, which was aggressive defense of our two senor guards and relentlessly attacking the basket.  For the most part, the Marquette team executed that game plan to perfection, and they shot the basketball very well from everywhere.  Combine good execution with vastly superior depth and somewhat superior talent, and it was just too much for the tough-minded Wildcats to overcome.  Well done, Golden Eagles.  Fairly and nobly won.

I still feel a little numb from the loss, as I usually do for a day or so after Kentucky is excused from the tournament.  I try to reflect on the season, but usually at this point, my mind just feels a little like oatmeal.  By the time we are well into the weekend, I will probably have an even more sound perspective.  I have not availed myself of anyone else's observations, and to this point I have not read a thing that has been written about Kentucky's game yesterday.  I do that for a reason, and the reason is that I want to make sure what I am writing down are my own thoughts, and not combined with those of others into an amalgam.  Even though that latter often provides more clarity and insight, it seems to me that when I write a post-NCAA tournament article, it should be all mine.

As the Big Blue Nation begins to move from partisan to more or less neutral interest in the NCAA tournament, the first thing that comes to my mind is how happy I was that the Wildcats actually made it.  Back during the dark days of December, I was sure that this season would end ignominiously -- instead, it ended gloriously.  No, we didn't win even one game in the NCAA, and most years that would be considered abject failure.  But not this year.  Most years, an 11(!) seed would be cause for serious consternation and significant fan anger at the coaching staff.  Not this year.  Most years, losing the first game we played in the SEC tournament and in the NCAA tournament would create mini-revolutions throughout the on-line community, and harsh arguments among bickering fans.  Not this year.  This year is different.  This year, we celebrate beating any team.  This year, "moral victories" actually happened.  This year, tough losses were both bemoaned and celebrated.  This year, an 11-seed was cause for an almost giddy pleasure.  This year, Kentucky was almost mid-major-like it its expectations.  One thing, however, remains a constant -- this year, as in all other years immemorial, losing in the NCAA tournament is a big disappointment.  That is good, and right, and as it should be.

So what made this year different from others in so many respects?  Well there are many things, as most of you are aware -- the injuries, player defections, a new coaching staff, lots of young players struggling to learn a new system.  What made all that special was an amazing, mid-season turnaround that saw the Cats will themselves into an NCAA tournament team after digging themselves into an almost insurmountable hole.  But what really grabbed the savage heart of the Big Blue Nation was the remarkable transformation of Ramel Bradley and Joe Crawford, our two graduating seniors.  After being much-maligned and largely written off as highly-touted players who failed to sniff their potential, both Bradley and Crawford suddenly emerged in the SEC portion of the season as not only the leaders of this team, but the heart of the team.  They both earned all-SEC honors, and our coach shared Coach of the Year in the SEC.  When our great freshman Patrick Patterson went down with injury, these two young men refused to let the team implode, and took them on their backs.  Their determined, relentless play inspired the younger players, and we got bigger and bigger contributions out of Perry Stevenson, Derrick Jasper and Ramon Harris as well as others including A.J. Stewart and Michael Porter.

But if there was one player most responsible for providing the vehicle for the turnaround of this Kentucky team, it was Patrick Patterson.  Patterson was amazing all year long.  Even when the rest of the team was ineffective, Patterson was dominant.  He was the linchpin around which this team was able to recreate itself, and without him, Coach Gillispie would not have had a fulcrum for the lever he used to move this team out of its rut and into one of the great turn-arounds in Kentucky (or for that matter, college basketball) history.  Despite the cruel late-season injury that sidelined him, Patrick Patterson represents the future of Kentucky basketball, and that future is very bright, indeed.

It has been a long time since a Wildcat team captured Kentucky fans' hearts like this one has.  No, this team will not be celebrated like the Unforgettables, but these Alley Cats will be remembered, perhaps in the same cognitive moment.  Whenever we think of what "heart" looks like in a Kentucky team, this team will instantly spring to mind, perhaps along with others and perhaps not.  Future Kentucky teams are hereby placed on notice -- we know what heart looks like, and determination, and relentlessness.  We have in our minds a picture of a real life team, this 2008 team, and its scrappy, leave-it-all-on-the-floor determination.  We will notice if you do not deliver.  More talent you may have, more skill and more strength.  But to capture the imagination of the Faithful, it requires much more, and we know exactly what that "more" looks like.  This 2008 Kentucky team has raised new standards of determination and effort, and we will want to see you, the future Wildcat teams, embrace and defend those standards.

I'd be remiss if I didn't mention the amazing year Coach Gillispie had.  From the depths of being heartily wished elsewhere to the heights of being fully embraced by the most engaged fans in the nation, Gillispie has experienced in one year the full measure of what it is like to coach here for many years.  It took previous coaches as long as ten years to get that full experience from love to disgust, and very few have made it back from disgust.  Gillispie managed it, and did so with a lot of class.  I think I should give Mitch Barnhart some credit here, too, for sticking with Gillispie when it would have been easy to abandon him in the face of ridiculous rumors and inexplicably bad basketball.  This has been a year unlike any other in my memory, and that memory stretches back to the last years of Adolph Rupp.

But today, we mourn the passing of the 2008 season even as we celebrate the remarkable team that rebuilt itself, Transformer-like, from the wreckage and spare parts of the pre-conference season.  Marc Maggard's site is asking for Wildcat fans to welcome the team home tonight, as they arrive at 6 PM this evening at Bluegrass Airport.  I recommend this to all fans who can make it, as this team has much earned a "Welcome home," not as conquering heroes, but of valiant warriors who fell in battle defending the honor of our great tradition.  Our two great seniors deserve all we can muster up for them.

Great season, gentlemen.  Well done to all.  Joe, Ramel -- we will really miss you and wish you had another year.  For the rest, next season begins tomorrow, lace 'em up.  Basketball never ends in the Bluegrass, and in the new season, our expectations are going up.  Are you up to the challenge?

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Next Year
UK finished 18-13 for its first sub 60% (W-L % record) year since 1990 season. Lots of reasons for that. Morris to NBA. Lucas to Florida instead of UK. Legion transferring to Illinois. Meeks injured most of year. Jasper injured early in year. Patterson injured late in year. All-in-all, not a bad year.

UK was 131-40 the prior 5 years. 263-83 the prior 10 years. Neither is fair standard for Gillispie. Nor is it fair to compare him to Rupp years (876-190 in 41 seasons over 42 years).

What IS fair is to compare him to the Post Rupp, Frosh Eligibility, Expanded NCAA years (1973 to 2007) before he arrived at UK. Or maybe (if not IS). That's my view anyway...

869 W and 273 L (76%) overall. 70 W and 26 L (73%) in NCAA games. Over 35 year timeframe.

Gillispie is 18-13 (58%) overall and 0-1 in NCAA now. After 5 years, I'll expect him to be above 70% overall and above 60% in NCAA games. After 10 years, I'll expect him to be above 75% overall and above 70% in NCAA games. Those are my criteria for judging Gillispie at UK.

Next year depends on spring recruiting and summer recovery from injuries. What Meeks and Patterson MUST DO is rest. R-E-S-T. Presuming both recover satisfactorily, next year maybe:

WF Miller (25 mins) starts, Harris (15 mins) as back-up
PF Patterson (30 mins) starts, Stewart (10 mins) as back-up
C Stevenson (25 mins) starts, RECRUIT (15 mins) as back-up
WG Meeks (25 mins) starts, RECRUIT (15 mins) as back-up
PG Jasper (25 mins) starts, Liggins (15 mins) as back-up

That's 10 solid players in rotation. I can see 10+ W in OOC and 10+ W in SEC for 20+ W in regular season play. I can see 2+ W in SECT and 1 or 2 W in NCAA postseason play. That's 23 or 24 W (+) next season from where I type.

We'll C what happens...

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 9:59 AM EDT   0 recs

"RECRUIT"
Those are still some pretty big holes that you are penciling in as "RECRUIT."

I agree that those are the standards Gillispie must reach.  I don't know if the incoming players he currently has will be enough to fill the gap left by Joe and Ramel.  I'm thinking it may be the year after next when we finally field a team with a true 10 man rotation.

by chirop1 on Mar 21, 2008 10:11 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Can't Replace Joe And Ramel
They take 2800 career points with them.

I think Meeks and Jasper will fill their spots in the lineup but not replace them (per se).

RECRUIT at SG could be Hopson or JuCo.

RECRUIT at C could be JuCo.

I think we get 30 quality back-up minutes (15 each) from those 2 RECRUITS whomever they are.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 11:07 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Juco
Kevin Galloway??

by johnr on Mar 21, 2008 5:20 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

If He Qualifies Academically
He didn't at Fresno St (after his frosh year at USC) so he went JuCo instead.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 5:35 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Posted in Diaries too....
As hard as our CATS battled and worked this year and as much emotion that Joe and Ramel showed (Joe in particular) at the conclusion of yesterday's game....does anyone plan on going to the Airport today to greet them (or to Wildcat Lodge)? Just curious. I think it would be great to have a good number of people to show this team that the Fans are proud of what they did over the entire year even with a 1st round loss!

On a related note...I know they get back today, but does anyone know what time?

C....A....T....S CATS CATS CATS

by MartinGolf9 on Mar 21, 2008 10:10 AM EDT   0 recs

6 PM ...
Didn't read my piece, didja?

:-)

by Truzenzuzex on Mar 21, 2008 10:23 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

La La Land
I did....but for some reason I missed that whole sentence at the bottom....I found myself pondering rather than reading in the last bit of it....Thanks Tru
C....A....T....S CATS CATS CATS

by MartinGolf9 on Mar 21, 2008 10:29 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes
I am taking my daughter. It is a HUGE lesson that winning is NOT all there is. Doing it the right way and with heart is powerful.

Wins are the easy measurement for a team or an individual in competition. For observers, the ability to see beyond wins is as much a statement on their own character as the competitor who played with it. If all you see are W's and L's, well, I am sorry.

The SEC commercial that lists the numbers of student athletes who will become pros in non-sports fields speaks volumes. The following type of statement is in the official "Coaches Handbook on Post-Game Pressers" and all say it, but as BCG choked up talking about years from now when Joe and Ramel have sick kids and jobs not going well and they think they cannot go on, they can always look back to what they did and learned this year, I almost cried myself. We got yet another "counter-Hitler-the-boozer" look into who BCG really is.

As we can have only one coach, I am very happy with who we have. If mad-science was real and we could create Billy Smith or Tubby G, there would be cause for alarm in the bone of all coaches and teams. The best motivation, game plans, in-game adjustments and talent anyone would have ever seen. But again, we have only one coach.

It is natural for the partisanship in the first year. However, it is over. There is no changing the past for it is the past. I hope next year we can all focus on OUR coach and OUR team as we only have one and he is Billy The Clyde.

Tough games, weeks, months, tournaments, recruiting battles, injuries and transfers are all still in the cards but after witnessing these Ally Cats and this coach, I can honestly say...

...We are Kentucky and it is all OK!

by wilson452 on Mar 21, 2008 10:45 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

First Year To Second Year
Hall 20-8, then 13-13.

Sutton 32-4, then 18-11.

Pitino 14-14, then 22-6.

Tubby 35-4, then 28-9.

Gillispie 18-13, then ??? but I think more like Pitino (+7 or +8 W) than the others.

We'll C.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 11:10 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I am with you
I may think a little closer to +5 when all is said and done but we will see an uptick.

I just feel like the air is cleaner now and everyone is starting to calm down and realize we will be fine.

2 years from now, look out NCAA's

by wilson452 on Mar 21, 2008 12:08 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

3rd Year
Rupp's 3rd year = UK was 21-3 (first ever 20 W season) and Helms Trophy awarded as NC that year.

Hall's 3rd year = UK was 26-5 and NCAA runner-up.

Sutton's 3rd year = UK was 27-6 and Sweet 16.

Pitino's 3rd year = UK was 29-7 and Elite 8.

3rd year has been kind to UK coaches in the past.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 12:21 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Next year's difference
Next year - I think there will be an uptick. I still think we will have issues in the non-conference against UNC, Indiana, and Lousisville. Those games aren't necessarily losses, but they could go either way. In conference, I see us performing similar to this year, within a game or two either way.

The difference will be that I don't see us losing to teams like Gardner Webb and San Diego (though I say that hestitantly - SD is beating Connecticut as I write this). Take this season, add W's for GW, SD, UAB, and Houston, and we finish with 22 wins. Add an NCAA tourny win or two, another SEC tournament win or two, and 24-26 wins is very possible.

Florida will likely be better next year than this, but Tennessee and Vanderbilt won't be as tough I don't think. I think 10-12 SEC wins is very possible, if not more. We'll see.

The point - I don't see UK absolutely dominating next year, but if PP and Meeks are 100%, and Liggins is cleared to play academically, and Stephenson continues to mature, they will be a very tough team - easily top 20 all year. They just need to keep the heart this year's team had. . .

by blbskue on Mar 21, 2008 4:24 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My Goal = 25 W For UK Next Season
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/teamslist.html

UK first won 25+ games in 1946. In 62 seasons (no games played in 1953) from 1946 thru 2008, UK has 25+ W in 28 of them.

In the post Rupp era (1973 thru 2008), UK has never gone 4 straight years without 25+ W season.

Twice before now, UK went 3 straight years (1981-82-83 and 2000-01-02) without getting 25+ W.

Let's NOT set a new record next season...

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 4:36 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

25 wins
Do you consider 25 wins a rebuilding season?

I ask because on another thread we were discussing UK's prospects for next year and you stated that "2009 will be a rebuilding season like 2008 was."

You seem to have made a U-Turn.

by Ken Howlett on Mar 21, 2008 10:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Goal = 25 W
Reality is yet to happen.

I had the same 25 W goal this season.

The last 2 yielded 22 W apiece. It seemed to me that Patterson, Legion, Stewart, Williams would replace Morris, Perry, Thomas, Obrzut just fine.

It seemed to me that the returning players would improve.

25 W was my goal in 2008.

Didn't happen that way.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 10:15 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I Believe I Did
(1) 25 W is my goal for UK next season, this season, last season, every season.

(2) UK will still be rebuilding in 2009. Regardless 25 W is the goal for the team.

UK averages about 25 W per season in the Post Rupp era (1973 thru 2008).

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 11:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

25 Wins
I'm sure the team will take to heart your goal for them.

Yes, finally with your "(2)" you answered my question.

25 wins = rebuilding. Talk about your high standards.

Two more questions; was 25 wins your goal for the '96 team? How have you come to that particular number being your "every year" goal?

by Ken Howlett on Mar 22, 2008 12:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Yes
25 W is a successful season at UK. Success is my goal for UK.

(For example) Tubby set a goal of 25 W for Minnesota this season, coming off 9-22 last year. They didn't make it but they did make 20 W. Without high goals, they wouldn't have made 20.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2008 12:48 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

25 W Average (1973 Thru 2008)
Why not make your AVERAGE as a goal every year?

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2008 12:49 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

With all due respect....
....setting a numerical goal which is the same every year is not necessarily representitive of the team composition.

BEFORE the season started this year I thought if this team could win 20 that would be a great year. Next year 20 wins would be a bit of a disappointment, in my view.

A coach setting a goal for his team is very different than a fans expectations. A myriad of motives could be behind a coaches victory goal.

Of course goals are very subjective, and each fan is certainly entitled to have his/her own thoughts on the matter.

I have gone down this road with you because on another thread I wrote that next year would be UK's best chance, in the last 3 years, at making the FF.(I probably should have written that next years team should be the BEST UK team in the last 3 years) You wrote that you thought next year would be a "rebuilding year", then today you wrote that your goal for next year was 25 wins. Well, rebuilding, and 25 wins are strange bedfellows indeed. Even for a UK fan. But I think I understand where you are coming from now.

by Ken Howlett on Mar 22, 2008 1:09 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My Expectations NEXT YEAR (Not Goal)
I spelled them out earlier.

10+ W from OOC schedule. Why not?

10+ W from SEC schedule. Why not?

2 or 3 W in SECT. Why not?

1 or 2 W in NCAA. Why not?

That's 23 to 25 W (+).

Goals are OBJECTIVE. Doable, measurable, tangible.

I actually think the 2007 UK team was very good despite its 22-12 record. They showed it by going 15-3 to start, then faded to 7-9 the rest of it.

http://www.kenpom.com/rpi.php?y=2007 #13 RPI, 14 W vs Top 100 RPI teams, #1 SOS overall, #2 SOS in OOC play.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2008 9:40 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Is it just me?
Maybe it's just me, but how many wins we have in a season isn't a big deal to me.  The true benchmark for me is NCAA tournament penetration, with the ultimate goal being hanging some more banners in Rupp.

At least the next 2 years are going to be rebuilding years, so maybe the Sweet 16 is a good goal.  But 4 or 5 years in to the Gillispie tenure, we should have a goal of reaching the Final Four at a minimum every year.

The number of wins we have will in large part be guided by how good the SEC and the teams in our OOC schedule are that year.  NCAA tournament penetration is a better metric because it shows how consistently good our team can be against the NCAA's best teams.

Yeah, it's nice to keep the "most wins" record that we have, but I'd trade that for a few more championships anyday.

by EEWildcat on Mar 22, 2008 12:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Sweet 16
UK made Sweet 16 every time in Rupp era. (NCAA only took 8 to 16 teams most years back then) So 20 of 20 if you count those (and I would).

UK made Sweet 16 in 8 of 10 NCAA under Hall.

UK made Sweet 16 in 2 of 3 NCAA under Sutton.

UK made Sweet 16 in 5 of 6 NCAA under Pitino.

UK made Sweet 16 in 6 of 10 NCAA under Tubby.

UK failed to make Sweet 16 in 1st year of BCG.

That's 41 Sweet 16 of 50 NCAA trips.

UK missed Sweet 16 in 1981, 1982, 1987, 1994, 2000, 2004, 2006, 2007, and 2008.

Some rebuilding years, some not.

My goal would be 1 or 2 W in NCAA in 2009.

FF every year? No one has ever done that. UK has made 13 FF in 70 years of NCAA tourney (or 50 NCAA appearances, if you prefer). 1 FF every 4 or 5 years is more like it for UK.

13 / 50 = 1 @ 4 years, or 13 / 70 = 1 @ 5 years.

BCG has 1 Sweet 16 in 4 NCAA appearances.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2008 1:05 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Expectations vs. goals
Yeah, obviously, it's definitely not to be expected, but I think it's a good goal.  I think UK should be in contention for a final four every year.

I feel like UNC (minus the Doghtery years) has been in contention for the final four every year.  Also UCLA is in contention for it every year now that they have Howland.  Duke is in contention for it most years.  Same with Kansas.  I think it is reasonable to expect UK to be on the same tier with those schools, on average.

Maybe that's a high expectation, but I think it was a reasonable goal for the UK teams when they were in high gear in the Rupp/Hall/Pitino/Smith eras.

And let me also say, I would be more than thrilled to trade with Florida's results over the past 3 years.  I would be fine with not being in contention for a final four after just winning 2 national championships back-to-back.  Totally understandable.

by EEWildcat on Mar 22, 2008 1:43 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

No Team Since UCLA
Bruins made FF in 1962, 1964 & 65, 1967 thru 1976 for 13 FF in 15 years.

Not since then has any team been FF every year.

If you say Top 10 = FF contention, UK has met that standard in 39 years of the 60 that AP poll has existed (1949 thru 2008).

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 22, 2008 2:10 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Re: EEWildcat
I agree with you, except that I feel UK will be much improved next year, and the year after they should be a legitimate challenger for the FF.

I have the same Tourney goals as most UK fans I suppose, but I don't judge a team solely on their Tournament success. In a one-and-done format so many things can happen such as bad matchups, bad shooting game etc., that can cause a team to lose earlier than expected. The media have put so much emphasis on the Big Dnace that sometimes I feel we lose sight of the successes of a team because they did not make the FF.

I'm with you on the all-time win record. I'd gladly swap that record for a couple more championships....and I am sure Gillispie would do the same.

by Ken Howlett on Mar 22, 2008 5:18 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

2010 Cats
Very solid Sr class that year = Meeks, Jasper, Stevenson, Porter, Harris, Coury, and JuCo recruit(s) this year. As many as 7 or 8 Seniors in 2010 bodes well for a strong team.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 12:52 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm with you on hope
for 2010, but it is so hard to predict.  In the fall of '04 it looked like either the 2007 or 2008 tournaments would be very good chances for the CATS to win it all - and we didn't even make a sweet sixteen.

by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 23, 2008 1:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Strong SR Classes
1975 = FF and NCAA R/U.

1978 = NCAA title.

1984 = FF.

1988 = Sweet 16.

1992 = Elite 8.

1996 = NCAA title.

Just a few examples.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 8:01 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Very Promising
2010 is going to be very promising.  Meeks, Jasper, and Stevenson are going to be just awesome as seniors.  We'll still be kinda thin at the 4/5 slot (rimshot) but I think Darius Miller will be able to play some 4 if he grows as expected.  And I believe we also get K.C. Ross-Miller and Dakotah Euton that year?  If by some miracle Patterson stays through his junior year and Meeks is healthy, we'll be a juggernaut.

by EEWildcat on Mar 23, 2008 8:41 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Patterson
His parents told me (firsthand, my own ears) that PP will stay at UK for 4 years.

So the 4/5 spots in 2010 will be Patterson (4), Stevenson (5), Coury, Stewart, and recruit(s) to come, either in 2008 or 2009 classes.

Keep an eye out for Josh Harrellson (JuCo) as one possibility. He's very promising as a post player and possible UK recruit.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 9:13 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

With due respect ...
that is what parents always say.  And in the case of top players, they are wrong 75% of the time.

It's not that I don't believe the Pattersons.  I am sure that is their intention.  But their son has a say in it, as well, and if he were to become a lottery pick, staying in school simply makes no economic sense.  The Pattersons are no so wealthy that they can gamble millions of dollars on a career-ending injury.

I do respect their desire to see their son get an education, but common sense and plain reality must intrude.  Patrick is going to make millions playing basketball if he stays healthy.  There is no education available that can produce that kind of income, except in a very long term.  He can always get his degree later, as many others have.

Next year will surely tell the tale.  If he is not a lottery pick or high first rounder, I expect he will stay until he is or until he graduates, whichever comes first.  But the former is much more likely than the latter.

by Truzenzuzex on Mar 23, 2008 10:20 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

More Than That
A good friend of mine (grew up with him in N Ky, he is UK Law School grad) is friend of the P's from WV. Their sons competed against each other in HS basketball.

They told him the same thing. I believe the P's are a little different than many families with star basketball players.

You may be right, we'll C what happens.

Payne, Chapman, Mashburn, Walker, Mercer, Nazr, Rondo, Morris. Those are the only 8 UK players EVER to leave early for the NBA.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 10:38 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I hope you're right!
Like Tru says, 20 year-olds don't always do what their parents want.  However, Patrick does seem like a different kind of young man than a lot of the early departures, though, so you may be right.  If he stays four years and stays healthy, I think we will be in great shape in 2010.

And, Patrick will be a UK legend, one of those guys they talk about like Kenny Walker.

by EEWildcat on Mar 23, 2008 10:57 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

2003 and 2008 are good examples
I agree that the NCAA record doesn't tell the whole story.

The 2003 "Suffocats" were probably my favorite non-championship team.  Going undefeated in the SEC was a huge accomplishment.  It was awesome to watch them just totally shut down and frustrate teams.  And we all know that if Bogans hadn't hurt his leg, we would have been going to the Final Four (and likely hang a championship banner) and Dwyane Wade couldn't have done anything about it.

Sometimes you do everything right and just have bad, horrible, luck.  We've seen our share of that this year.

And I think the 2008 team met their goal.  For them, with the roster situation (injuries and only 1 playable big-man by the end of the season), I think a good goal was just to make the tournament.  And they showed a lot of heart and did it!

But other than that, I think NCAA success is a good metric.  Of course there are going to be some aberrations, but if you have a quality team, you are going to be robust to an off shooting night.  You are going to be consistent.  You are going to be able to put together a lineup and a strategy to match up with anyone.  You are going to have more than two 4/5 players so that if one gets in early foul trouble, you don't have poor Derrick Jasper playing the post against a 6'9" guy.  And if you're Kentucky (as opposed to Duke or Syracuse) you are going to need to be better enough to withstand a handful of bad calls and still win. 8')

by EEWildcat on Mar 23, 2008 9:00 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

NCAA Success And Luck
Coach A = 30-18 (63%) in NCAA.

Coach B = 20-9 (69%) in NCAA.

Coach C = 23-9 (72%) in NCAA.

Which coach is the best of those?

I'd offer that Coach A is better than B or C.

Coach A is Adolph Rupp, who was 30-18 in NCAA.

Coach B is Joe Hall. Coach C is Tubby Smith.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 9:16 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

A little unfair
Didn't you say earlier that during Rupp's tenure, the NCAA started at the field of 16 (not 64)?  That is before my time, so I really don't know.  So if you're comparing Rupp, wouldn't it be more fair to compare records of sweet 16 and onwards?

Also, maybe a stock performance analogy would be better for coaches.  Basketball programs have a lot of inertia.  What was the NCAA record when the coach took over, and what was it when they left?  And what dividends (NCAA final fours, semi's, and championships) got paid?  And what SEC violation penalties (probation) did you have to pay?  Looking at it that way, you have Rupp and Pitino at the top, and Sutton at the rock bottom, with Hall and Smith in between, which I think is pretty fair.

I think the numbers for B and C are not a terrible comparison though.  I think Hall and Smith were overall similarly skilled (with Smith being slightly better) and both had a tough act to follow.

by EEWildcat on Mar 23, 2008 11:12 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hall And Tubby
Hall 3 FF, 2 NC games, 1 NCAA title in 10 NCAA.
Tubby 1 FF, 1 NC game, 1 NCAA title in 10 NCAA.

Most would give NCAA edge to Hall despite lower W-L % overall (75% to 76% and 69% in NCAA games to 72%).

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 11:44 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Hall
Hall certainly had more success than Smith by my metric, which you listed.  And while I'm no expert on the Hall administration, I think Smith may have been slightly (but not significantly) better of a coach.  My justification of this is, I think the whole field is just tougher now, with a lot more parity, which makes it harder for any one coach to have a lot of success, statistically.  You are just going to get beat by the UABs of the world more often, statistically.  There just isn't going to be another era like the the 70s when UCLA had those crazy teams.  And of course the "bad luck" in 2003 may have made it quite closer.  Of course Hall probably has some bad beat stories to tell too.  It's just hard to compare two coaches from different eras.

I was only born shortly after Hall took over so obviously I don't have a good feel for his tenure.  So I'm really not qualified to evaluate him, anyway.  He probably does deserve the edge.  Certainly by my metric, he gets it.

by EEWildcat on Mar 23, 2008 1:39 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

My Sister Dated One Of Hall's Players In Mid 70's
So I have a pretty close awareness of Joe B Hall.

He was a tremendous coach and recruiter. No one has ever succeeded a legend and even lasted 13 years, much less with all the success Joe Hall had.

Rupp >>>>> Pitino > Hall > Smith >>> Sutton IMO.

UK suffered Good Luck in 1975 (Scott May injury) and 1984 (Home Cookin' at Rupp Arena) to get to FF.

UK suffered Bad Luck in 2003 (Bogans injury) and 2005 (Sparks WAS fouled but it wasn't called).

Had their Luck been reversed, Hall has 1 FF (and 1 NC) and Tubby has 3 FF (etc).

Luck is part of EVERY sport.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 1:58 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

UK NCAA Record In 1997, 2007, And Today
UK was 77-35 (68.8%) in 1997.

UK was 100-44 (69.4%) in 2007.

UK is 100-45 (69%) today.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 11:47 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Short-term record
I probably should have said "short term NCAA record" because obviously, as more games are played, the harder it is to effect the record, so you don't get much of a measurement.

So let's say, without me looking up any stats, the NCAA record for the last 4 years before the coach took over?  That's a decent amount of inertia...

How to calculate the record...  I think 1 championship and 3 first round losses (6-3 = 67%) is way better than 4 sweet 16's (8-4 = 67%) and equally way better than even 4 elite 8's (12-4=75%).

So maybe say you get 5 points for each championship, 2 points for a runner-up, and 1 for a final four, and then add your average winning percentage (.68 or whatever) to that.  That's your "momentary value" representing the current hotness of the program.  Oh yeah, and this number is "0" for the end of your tenure if you get put on probation, and if you start with probation, this number gets multiplied by say 1/2 for your starting...  What do you think?

Then you can compare the value before your tenure, and your last 4 years.  And of course you get some dividends from championships/semis/final fours too before you evaluate the coach.  Say double the above numbers.  Now we're getting pretty complicated!

by EEWildcat on Mar 23, 2008 2:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

6-4 In NCAA From 2004 Through 2007
UK was 99-31 (76%) those 4 seasons, 6-4 (60%) in NCAA. SEC champions in 2005, SECT champs in 2004.

Compare those results to 1980 to 1983, for EG.

UK was 96-28 (77%) those 4 seasons but only 3-4 (43%) in NCAA. Never SECT champs but SEC co-champs in 82 and SEC champs in 83.

Then UK goes on a 2 year run of 6-2 (75%) in NCAA games (FF in 84, Sweet 16 in 85) but 47-18 (72%) overall. SEC and SECT champs in 84 only.

Which was better? 1980-83 or 1984 and 85? Depends on whether you value NCAA results or overall results.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 23, 2008 8:34 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm Going
I will be at the airport this evening and also plan on taking my one year old son.  It is never too early to start learing what it really means to be a Wildcat.

by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 21, 2008 1:01 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

lol!
We should make A Sea Of Blue signs or something. I am leaving the house in about 30-40 minutes! See you there! :D

by blueninja on Mar 21, 2008 5:03 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I WISH I could have been there!
Living out of state is the only reason I wasn't there!  I was there in spirit.  

TMG

by tmgukcatfan on Mar 21, 2008 9:32 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Honoring Joe and Ramel
In the last few months, as we have all done a 180 in our feelings about the heart and hustle of Joe and Ramel, there has occasionally been mention of how we would like to see their jerseys retired in Rupp. Do we as fans have any input on that? Who makes that decision and how can we influence it?

And on an unrelated note, has anyone else thought that PPatterson's injury may benefit next years Cats tremendously, in that Perry and Ramon and perhaps even AJ discovered that they had more to give, and the ability to give it, than they realized back when they were depending on Patterson?

by cat woman on Mar 21, 2008 10:31 AM EDT   0 recs

On the first ...
I have no idea.

On the second, I agree.  I am positive Perry Stevenson's development was accelerated by Patterson's injury, and maybe others as well.  We'll have to see, but perhaps there is a silver lining to the cloud of Patrick's injury.

by Truzenzuzex on Mar 21, 2008 10:33 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Jerseys in the Rafters
Does anyone know how we can voice our desire to see their jerseys hanging in Rupp?

As much as Ramel and Joe have given us, it seems that we should at least make our collective voices heard.

by cat woman on Mar 21, 2008 10:39 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Meeks
I just wanted to quickly say something about Jodie Meeks.  I really feel for the young man, I am sure at the end of last year he was really looking ahead to a spectacular sophomore season. Being a bench cheerleader is certainly not why he came UK.  

After his initial injury I would wait each week to hear BCG'S weekly report on the wounded, but as time went on I found myself forgetting about poor Jodie.  I wish him a  fast & full recovery!
(I am not even sure I know what his injury is-groin pull, hip??)

Anyway, here's to Jodie and a GREAT junior season.  He provides offense, offense is needed.

by BigSkyCat on Mar 21, 2008 11:15 AM EDT   0 recs

Slow Recovery Better
Meeks needs to REST and let his injury heal.

The next practice is October. The next game is November.

His injury needs rest or it will stay injured.

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 12:02 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

OK
Slow, Fast, whatever....

I just meant that I hope Jodie heals and can make up for this year with an extraordinary year for himself next year.  :)

by BigSkyCat on Mar 22, 2008 12:14 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Thanks....
to both the players and coaching staff on the 2008 version of Kentucky basketball.  Thank you for playing/coaching basketball with passion and fire, playing for eachother and your school rather than for your own individual glory and thank you for reigniting a fanbase that, has at times forgotten that we watch UK for what it stands for (tradition, pride, and honor) and not just for some lofty expectation of yearly championships.  

To Joe and Ramel, I can't say enough about the men you have become.  The two of you played your way into the hearts of Kentucky fans everywhere.  Where once many felt you would never understand the values we cherish in those who play for UK, you now stand as prime examples of everthing BBN hold dear in anyone who wears the name Kentucky on their jersey.  You gave us so much this year and words cannot express how much you will be missed by the majority of Kentucky faithful.

On a personal note the day UK plays its last game each season (excluding 78, 96 and 98 of course) is easily one of the worst days of the year for me.  This is no exageration, friends and family pretty much know to give me a day or two to kinda decompress before calling with condolences.  I know its sorta pathetic but I get the feeling most of you on this site can relate.  Sadly, this year is no different in regards to the numbness I am feeling knowing there's no more games until the Big Blue Madness scrimmage.  However, having been witness to everything that took place this season, there is so much promise on the horizon that you almost can't help getting giddy about next fall even though it seems so far away.  So to Patrick and Jody, get well ASAP, Derrick keep working on that jumper; Perry, Micheal, and A.J. keep building on the growth you had this year, and to any recruits heading our way; know that you have huge shoes to fill with our beloved seniors leaving.  

And to Kentucky fans everywhere, it's been amazing to see most of the nastiness put aside and have the passion we all feel actually come out in a positive way as the season progressed.  We truely have the best fans in the land!

by wldcatsfreak on Mar 21, 2008 11:26 AM EDT   0 recs

Airport
I will almost certainly be meeting my dad at the airport tonight!  I don't know how many of y'all are from around Lex, but I want to further encourage everyone to go if they can.

GO BIG BLUE

by blueninja on Mar 21, 2008 11:43 AM EDT   0 recs

I created this account for my Dad
Who has been a UK fan for almost 60 years! I am a Alabama fan and to see yalls passion reminds of our passion over at RollBamaRoll.

I have always followed UK basketball and i would say that the future looks bright for the Cats. You have a good coach, young players with a lot of playing experience and fan base that won't quit.

If i could give you guys some advice it would be this: BE PATIENT. This is one thing Bama nation is not known for and it has caused a lot of problems in the past. Give your coach time to develop his players and system. Just because you are Kentucky, doesn't mean you will be given the top players and have a 20 win season. If anything its harder because you ARE Kentucky. There is nothing wrong with rebuilding.

From one crazy fan to another i wish you guys luck and happy winning!

by BigCat on Mar 21, 2008 12:39 PM EDT   0 recs

Thanks ...
for stopping by.

And thanks for your advice.  I think it is very sound.

by Truzenzuzex on Mar 21, 2008 11:53 PM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Patience. . .
. . . is for suckers.  I don't mean to be the steoreotypical "Kentucky fan", but people - we are KENTUCKY!!  Yes, if things are going in the right direction, we should let it run to its conclusion, but we have earned the right to have high expectations.  I want BCG to know that we EXPECT championships - yes, it won't happen every year, but that is the goal - not making the tournament, not getting to the second round, not the Sweet Sixteen - CHAMPIONSHIPS!  That doesn't mean that every season that ends short of that goal is a failure (this season, for example), but "moral victories" should be the aberration, not the norm.  I fully believe in what BCG is trying to establish here, but he well knows that winning is what we expect and require.

And as for "rebuilding" - yes, BigCat, there is a lot wrong with it.  This year was rebuilding, and it is not something I wish to experience very often.  From now on, we reload.  Just because we don't win all the time shouldn't mean we don't expect it.  I'll just quote BCG here:  "I can't stand non-believers."

GO CATS!!

C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!

by NYCCats on Mar 22, 2008 12:14 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Gillispie...
...expects the same results as fans.

He gets it.

If he were 98, instead of 48, I would say he invented it.

That's why he is perfect for the job, in my opinion.

by Ken Howlett on Mar 22, 2008 12:18 AM EDT to parent up   0 recs

Couple Auburn Jokes For Ya
AUBURN stands for Alabama Usually Beats Us 'Round November.

What do the Auburn Tigers and a white sandy beach have in common?

Both look good 'til the Tide rolls in!

by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2008 1:48 PM EDT   0 recs