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OPEN SHOT: Is UK the fifth "dirtiest" football program?

It is according to Pete Holiday of AOL FanHouse.

Full disclosure -- cognitive dissonance warning:  Pete and I had a bit of a run-in via email over a post of mine earlier.  Therefore, my neutrality on this subject may be legitimately called into question.

Essentially, Pete's argument is the whole Claude Bassett thing made UK the "5th dirtiest" football program in the nation.  You can read his arguments for yourself, and I won't dispute any of his facts -- they seem to comport with my understanding.

But is Pete really telling us that this one incident makes us the 5th dirtiest football program of the last 20 years?  I'm sorry, but I just don't quite get that.  There have been many football programs placed on probation over and over again for NCAA violations, yet this one incident somehow elevates UK above all but four of those worthies?

Well, color me skeptical.  I suspect a bit of animus toward UK on Pete's part, and I say that because of the aforesaid previous conversation.  Of course, AOL Fanhouse disclaims all this with the following:

Using its own calculus, FanHouse ranks the 10 Dirtiest Programs of the last 20 years.

The link to their "calculus" is here, if you are interested.

I notice another qualifier they use is "The last 20 years".  It's anyone's guess why this matters, but since Pete is doing the math, it matters to him.

Others have recently come up with similar top ten lists that make a lot more sense to me, like Mike Freeman of Sportsline, but of course Pete, who's motto appears to be "I'm not being rude, you're just insignificant" has created his list as a response to that of Freeman.

Holiday even decides to call us out in particular, which I suppose shouldn't surprise me given our earlier conversation:

So, in other words, they thought they could make it all go away by sweeping it under the rug. It does seems to suggest that Mumme didn't know the things were going on. This seems highly unlikely, and we think the folks over at the Kentucky blog A Sea of Blue would agree. After all, if Stoops and company couldn't have missed two kids getting paid for doing nothing, how could Mumme miss such widespread and overt violations by one of his own employees?

For one thing, we're glad Pete has read A Sea of Blue more than the one time we linked him.  He is referring to this post of mine where I questioned Oklahoma's veracity.  What Pete doesn't address is why it is easier for two kids working at an automotive dealership (a profession known to often be a conduit for illicit funds to recruits) owned by a known booster to hide from their coaches than it is for a grown man, evidently with bad intentions, to essentially deceive his boss.  Call me crazy, but my money would be on the grown man deceiving his boss.

Finally, Pete thoughtfully reminds us of 1988, and our failure in the basketball program.  Well, I guess when you are talking about UK, "Kentucky's Shame" is always fair game.  No doubt our basketball program could justifiably rank in the top 10 dirtiest, given our history with NCAA sanctions.  However, our football program has no such comparable history, which is, I suppose, what makes this choice so curious.

Anyway, I'm not going to try to debunk him for two reasons -- number one is, I am convinced, rightly or wrongly, that he conformed his metrics to produce an outcome that not only allows him to place an imprimatur of mathmatical credibility on his conclusions, but also to produce a result that achieves his other objective of showing up Freeman.  

Also, his metrics and assignment of values seem pretty arbitrary to me.  For example, "lack of institutional control" is considered a much more serious violation than "failure to monitor", yet Pete assigns them the same point value.  

He also doesn't seem to assign any points for repeat offenders vs. occasional ones.  His explanation of excluding recruiting seems dubious -- not every recruiting violation is a result of an outside party which he uses as his rationale for excluding recruiting.

Number two, I don't think enough of Pete's reasoning to spend the time required to debunk him.  I suppose, therefore, I am objecting to his conclusion purely on a combination of partisanship and what I see as common sense, but your mileage may vary on the latter.

So, if any of you out there want to take on Pete, please do.  I will elevate it to the font page if it is well reasoned.  This is a community site, after all, and our readers are more than capable, if maybe not willing.

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Kentucky
Foxsports's 119 teams in 119 days dropped the Kentucky preview for football season on the 23. Just letting you know.

It's surprisingly optimistic. Our season will be a success if we win 9 games (including the bowl) according to them. I would call the season a success at 7-5 and maybe 6-6.

by davw83 on Jul 25, 2007 6:29 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

9-3 a success?
I would call 9-3 a miracle.

Unless, of course, the league for some reason is just down. That's happened unexpectedly before. At this point there's no reason to think the SEC East, and Kentucky, especially, won't be better than last year.

But that's why they play the games, isn't it, now.

by catlanta91 on Jul 26, 2007 11:49 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Here we go again; the press just can't believe....
that we at the U of Kentucky can win in football without cheating.

That false perception of exactly that was what got us put on probation in the 1st place.  Hal Mumme evidently didn't think we could win without cheating.  He disrespected U of Kentucky big time and bought into that lie 100 percent certain.  He felt we had to cheat.  No wonder why I can't stand that man long since he's been gone.

Coach Brooks on the other hand never, never cheats.  While I have been one of his sharpest critics in the past he is always brutally honest with us UK fans even to the point of telling us when we think we're wrong and always is willing to take the heat for his mistakes 100 percent of the time.  

While I do disagree with Coach Brooks at times and have usually disagreed with him more often than not until last year he is a tough ol' coot who is always willing to take responsibility and tell us the honest truth whether it's good or bad.

He led U of Kentucky to win a bowl game without even one hint of cheating.  Hal Mumme on the other hand didn't win except for one season even when he did cheat and I think we were something like 2-9 or 3-8 even with Mumme doing that in his last season for us even with all those "supposedly" good players.

I love a brave and courageous man like Coach Brooks who has nerves of steel and is willing to lay it all in the line even when he knows he will be blasted by the press and by us U of Kentucky fans as well...

Oh, by the way, Coach Brooks has done this without even a hint of even one single NCAA violation.  Not one.  He has proved that U of Kentucky Football teams can be competitive without cheating.  Just more reason to love him and his coaching....

Heck Brooks wins without cheating and Mumme loses even when he does cheat.  Can't get any more simpler than that....

by ukcatfan191 on Jul 26, 2007 8:14 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

A little late to the table here...
Pete is one of my fellow SEC bloggers, and in fact my quick and dirty one-off of Freeman's article inspired him to write this series.

One thing you have to understand (well, you don't have to, you can disregard it if you wish) is that Pete went about this in a truly dispassionate way.  He actually explained why he chose 1987 as a starting point in his first article in the series, then explained his reasoning to the AOL sports bloggers group.  Overall we thought it was about as good as you could get without turning it into a career -- it takes a long time to research this stuff and come up with a conclusion.

Pete had no motivation to skew the results one way or another.  He is an alumnus of Alabama and that school came in as a Top 5 cheater, and he presented the facts coolly and rationally (in my opinion.)  What is distressing for all of us as SEC fans is that three SEC schools made it into the Top 10.  At least the Big 12 one-upped us (they have three in the TOP 3!)

We all pretty much knew that every school that was listed in the Top 10 would have a group of fans up in arms about the call.  Curiously Miami fans bitched the most despite coming in at #10, which is far lower than most of us would expect.  Kentucky at #5 is a surprise but that is what you get when you convert facts and figures into a numerical total.  Kentucky ended up at #5.

We also knew that everyone would blame the formula as inaccurate.  To a large extent, it is.  It's impossible to convert the violations found by the NCAA over the years into a numerical representation which everyone will agree upon.  But I thought Pete did a pretty good job throwing out things which are unquantifiable (off-field arrests, etc.) and sticking to only the NCAA findings.  And I also believe his scoring system is reasonably good.  What more do you want?

And so Kentucky came in at #5, which surprised me as well, but don't for a minute think this could be the target of some scheme to discredit Kentucky.  Being involved with it as I was, including a group of others, I can tell you for a fact that it just wasn't done that way.  It'd be too hard, frankly, to skew this against one school without affecting the rest.

At the end of the day, it's just an entertaining and refreshingly objective look at the schools who've caused the most mischief for themselves in the past 20 years.

Orange & Blue Hue http://www.orangeandbluehue.com

by Gatorpilot on Jul 28, 2007 12:21 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well ...
I didn't mean to imply that he was picking on us.  Pete and I have had a very, very long discussion via email of this situation, primarily over methodology.

Long story short, I figured if I can criticize Pete's work, I at least owed him the effort to come up with a "better system" (I use the quotes, because in all honesty, I don't know if it is any better).

When I finish my analysis, I'll be sending all the data and results to Pete for his analysis and comment.  I may or may not publish the results, it just depends upon how defensible I think it is.

We may not agree on how objective Pete's analysis actually was, but I'll tell you this -- I believe after our discussion that he was trying to be objective, and really, that's what matters.

by Truzenzuzex on Jul 29, 2007 9:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

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