Chris Diggs of the Courier-Journal: Wanna Talk Elite Program, Gators?

by Truzenzuzex on May 19, 2007 9:41 AM EDT in Media Comment 15 comments

A few people here an elsewhere have ridiculed Chris Diggs at the UK fan blog. I have consistently linked him because he writes extremely well and gives a true fan perspective on the game. He may not be a recruiting guru like Jody Demling or Matt Jones, but he does a great job with commentary and analysis -- like most of us, though he isn't always consistent.

Well this morning, Chris is brilliant. He lays down an in-your-face response to Gator fans who have been trying (understandably and with considerable justification) to elevate themselves to the status of "Kentucky Rival", a coveted, program-validating title that many aspire to but very few programs actually achieve.

Chris' article is a must-read. It demonstrates, in clear and simple English even Gator fans with a superiority complex can understand, the difference between the two programs without diminishing the brilliance of Florida basketball over the last two seasons. It is a great piece of blogging, and the C-J have done themselves proud with guys like Demling and Diggs.

For once, I am feeling the love for the C-J, and they deserve a little.

Jody Demling thinks Dakotah Euton, a top 10 2010 prospect, could get an offer soon.

Jerry Meyers at Rivals looks at the Cactus Classic Day 1. Some familiar names, like Brandon Jennings, are there.

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I agree ...

His stuff is OK. Better exists on most posts at Cats Pause, personally.

To his point, Kentucky fans want to pretend that no one can ever touch us. On this particular Florida beef, we need to accept that until they aren't the two-time defending champs, we got little to go on.

The Online home of Big Blue Nation ...

by JL Blue on May 19, 2007 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately ...

there is truth in that.

I think Diggs is making the point not that no one can every touch us, but two years of recent success does not somehow rise to the level of the decades of excellence Kentucky has enjoyed, as many Florida fans want to insist. Florida would like to forget about the last 100 years and focus on the last 10, but you just cannot do that with any credibility.

Florida has earned a place among the SEC's elite, certainly for now and eventually, maybe forever. Let's face it -- 30 years ago, Duke wasn't even considered in the same breath and Kentucky, UCLA, North Carolina, etc. Look at them now.

Florida could very well follow the Duke path to the elite of college basketball. They could also follow the flameouts of UNLV and Arkansas, although Arkansas had some previous success before the Richardson years.

We will have to wait and see if Florida is UNLV or the new Duke. But we don't have to minimize their success to conclude that they aren't a legendary program after back-to-back titles.

by Truzenzuzex on May 19, 2007 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think you are right ...

that we will be able to tell much more about Florida as a program after Donovan leaves, and I also agree with you that Donovan will not last more than a couple more years there.

And I further agree (and made this same point to Gatorpilot) that Florida's back-to-back was not as impressive as UK's 1996-1998.

by Truzenzuzex on May 19, 2007 5:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Did you read the article?

After looking at your comments, I'm betting no.

It's facile to suggest that Florida is no more than another Arkansas or UNLV. It may turn out to be true, but there is more than a hint of cognitive dissonance in such an assertion. Donovan has proven that he can succeed against Kentucky and the SEC with a great team, but he has yet to prove that he can do so with a not-so-great team, as Tubby Smith and others have done. That doesn't mean he never will.

But minimizing Florida's accomplishments isn't necessary. Diggs' argument, quite rightly in my view, is that one needn't minimize them to understand that it is impossible for Florida to rise to the level of Kentucky in two years of excellence, especially since Kentucky has maintained excellence over decades. You said:

No, Florida basketball is further from UK than many want to give credit. He should have referred to UNLV and Arkansas. Is Donovan Nolan Richardson or is he Larry Brown? This is a valid question.

No, it isn't. Donovan is clearly neither. His career so far more closely mirrors that of Mike Krzyzewski of Duke than either of the worthies you mention.

By the way, "Florida basketball is further away from UK than many want to give credit" is precisely the point Diggs is making, which further suggests you either stopped half way through, or you haven't had your coffee yet. Comparing your comment to his post, there simply isn't any significant difference. And you point to his article as an example of inconsistency?

by Truzenzuzex on May 19, 2007 11:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

"Ignorant", is it?

This is what Diggs said:

Florida basketball is closer to Kentucky than many want to give credit, but Florida has a long way to go in matching any kind of success the Cats have garnered.

It's one thing to have success over a decade, but it's completely another to have success over decades!

It is impossible to reasonably argue that Diggs is wrong here. So it appears you have either failed to read carefully yourself, or you simply jerked his comment directly out of its intended context.

It is a very valid question to ask if Donovan is the next Nolan Richardson or Larry Brown.

Only to you, perhaps. I think it is more instructive to look at a coach who's career looks remarkably like Donovan's -- that of Mike Krzyzewski. Neither comparison is necessarily inapt, I just don't think yours reflect reality.

Truz, you like to argue and thow in "cognitive dissonance" (which I am sure most readers laugh at you when you post those words) when you find an opportunity. Next time, read more carefully and do a better job if you are going to disagree. Are you drunk today?

I might consider asking the same question if it weren't so incredibly rude.

I can't imagine that "most readers laugh at" me when I talk about cognitive dissonance -- it is something that we all live with every day when it comes to objectivity. I'm not quite sure why you find that funny, but opinions vary.

Finally, I really hope you get your tendency to resort to nasty insults under control. It is not one of your more endearing qualities.

by Truzenzuzex on May 19, 2007 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Alright Matta....

that's enough.

by bluebloodtoo on May 19, 2007 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why do you overlook the context?

You said:

what part of Digg's statement that "Florida basketball is closer to Kentucky than many want to give credit" do you not understand. I give up, you just don't get it.

He didn't make that statement in isolation. He qualified it in the context of a time frame. What is it about that fact that escapes your notice?

With respect to the Dovovan/Richardson/Brown thing, I get your point, I just think it is facile and ill conceived, because there is a third possibility -- he may succeed and continue to coach at Florida, something that you apparently discount. I don't necessarily think that will happen, but it might. Coach K famously flirted with the NBA several times, but never jumped.

If you want to disagree with me, fine, lots of people do. But keep in mind, just because you make a comment doesn't mean it is well reasoned or correct, and it is subject to my commentary and that of others. Your tendency to become abusive of others when inconsistencies in your reasoning are brought to light is unfortunate and unwelcome.

If my "arrogance" is too much for you to tolerate without being discourteous, there are lots of places on the Internet where rude and angry discourse is both expected and the norm. If you want to engage in debate along those lines, perhaps you should consider reading them and not me -- or you could get your own blog and run it the way you want.

Finally, you could just do what I do -- when you get mad at somebody, write an angry response, then delete it before you hit "post" and write something more reasonable. :-)

by Truzenzuzex on May 20, 2007 8:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh.

You don't get mad. OK. These were words used in your post:

"arrogant"
"usually illogical"
"feeble attempt"
"ignorant and wrong"
"amusing"
"irrelevant"
"boorish"
"ignoring you"
"your poor writing"
"your ignorance"
"arrogance"
"your 'abuse'"

We all get heated when talking passionately. But don't think you're mad? Look at that language.

The Online home of Big Blue Nation ...

by JL Blue on May 21, 2007 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

IMO....

The article would have done much better by trying to define "dynasty", then making a case for both teams. Also, his closing statement gives UF way too much credit. You can't say that they have had a successfull decade. They a successful team, and that's it. The same team won the tournament twice in a row. Having one great team that sticks around an extra year to make themselves and their coach look better than they are is just that, a great team. At this point UF has nothing better than a great team. If gator fans want to say they had a great team, I will wholeheartedly(with a bit of jealousy) support them. A great program; not until they prove it!

by bluebloodtoo on May 19, 2007 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't think that is quite fair ...

Florida certainly has had a successful decade. Two national championships and 3 final fours is unquestionably excellent, especially by Florida standards, but certainly by national standards as well.

But the fact remains that it is common for teams to have great runs in a ten-year span who have not been particularly successful before. That's why it's important to put their success in a broader context. It is one thing to be successful in a ten-year span. It is quite another to do it over 80 years.

You make good points in that Florida won two championships with essentially the same team, but let's be honest -- that is only of marginal importance. Very few teams ever achieve that kind of success, and Florida deserves credit for it -- they have most assuredly earned it.

by Truzenzuzex on May 20, 2007 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

2000 team

UF also had the 2000 team that made the national championship game. Three final fours and two championships in a decade. Sounds successfull to me and I hate Florida with every fiber of my being.Not saying UF is on par with UK by any means but it kinda reminds me of a certain team in the 90's that had three final fours and 2 national championships. Can they keep it up? Who know? but dont try to pretend that Florida hasn't had a more successfull decade in the past 10 years than. I would totally trade the 3 #1 seeds and no final four appearances for all of UF's early flame outs and 2 national championships.

by davw83 on May 19, 2007 12:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The problem with your numbers...

is that you are including two final fours that are included with the nat'l championships. The correct summation would be 1 final four and 2 nat'l champs. That is considerably different than 3 ff and 2 champs.

by bluebloodtoo on May 19, 2007 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Post script...

Also, I don't believe I was comparing decade vs decade. To say that UK was more successful than UF over the past 10 years would be as assanine as it would be to assume that I meant that from reading the previous post.

by bluebloodtoo on May 19, 2007 10:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

More Gatorhating, eh?

Well, I must say I'm laughing myself silly at the notion (whether it was Tru or the C-J article) that the Gators have been "trying to elevate themselves" to the "coveted status" of a "Kentucky rival."

No, we've just been trying to win national championships, and succeeding. You people really are in your own warped universe if you think that Florida is trying to do anything other than win basketball games. Maybe if your program had this same lack of focus it would explain why the results have been so poor over the last decade.

By the way, Florida has been to 4 Final Fours, advanced to the championship game three times, and won two of them. And that was all in the last 13 years.

The only poster in this thread who has been willing to say the truth is davw83. I don't know why the rest of you remain stuck in the endless loop this discussion invariably takes, which always involved a look back into Kentucky's distant past rather than the future.

Orange & Blue Hue http://www.orangeandbluehue.com

by Gatorpilot on May 20, 2007 2:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

C'mon now, GP ...

we are just trying to give you guys the credit you are due -- not the credit you think you deserve.

I think it is the fans, not the team, that are trying to elevate themselves to the status of "rival" for Kentucky. The Gators have had a nice run, and I have no idea if it is over or not. We shall surely see.

But, if you want to compare statistics over the last 13 years, let's do by all means:

UK 1994-present
National Championships - 2
Final Game - 3
Final 4 - 3
Final 8 - 6
Sweet 16 - 9
Second round 13
First round flameouts - 0
Missed tourney - 0
SEC champions/Co champions: 7
SEC Tournament Champions: 8

Now, my recollection is that in the first 3 categories, you guys are right there with us. The only statistic that you actually lead in is final fours, and if you go back one more year to 1993, you don't even lead that one.

The rest of the statistics are disproportionately in our favor, even during the best stretch of basketball success Florida has enjoyed in its history. And just one more thing - UK has had 3 or 4 such stretches in it's history. How many has Florida had? I think just this one.

Nope, no Gator-hating here. In fact, this is probably as close to Gator love as you are ever going to see on a UK fan site. :-)

by Truzenzuzex on May 20, 2007 9:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs