Kentucky Vs. Louisville: Do Statistics Make Duke/UNC Better?
by Glenn Logan on Aug 22, 2011 5:39 PM EDT
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PrintMack Perkins makes the argument today on Nation of Blue that the Kentucky/Louisville rivalry is inferior to several others, including Indiana/Purdue and Duke/UNC. Of course, the answer to the question of who has the better rivalry, like so many questions in sports, is largely subjective. Here is Mack's argument:
The first to be eliminated sadly will be the UK Louisville rivalry. While this heated battle is physically intense and nerve racking for all those watching and playing, statistically it doesn’t stack up against the rest. The 2 teams have only played each other 42 times. This is attributed to playing only once a year (out of conference foes) and because the rivalry died during the years 1922-1948 and 1960-1983. While we all enjoy a Demarcus Cousins non intentional elbow to the face and a good ol’ fashioned chicken bucket beatdown (and other numerous great memories), nationally and historically it’s probably not "the greatest".
As you can see, Mack is essentially answering the question statistically, and to be more precise, is relying most on the number of times the teams have played each other. As you might suppose, I am going to disagree, but let's be clear at the outset that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with Mack's argument.
My dissent will largely be based on two factors: Fan intensity and, well, the inverse of Mack's position. As I said earlier, this is largely a subjective argument, but the rivalry between Kentucky and Louisville is one of the most bitter in sport, and I would contend that in college sports, there are only a very few rivalries that even come close: Auburn/Alabama, Michigan/Ohio State and Texas/Oklahoma. Of these, to me, the most bitter is Auburn/Alabama for the same reason as UK/Louisville -- they are in-state foes, and being in-state matters.
Part of the reason these rivalries are so acrimonious is that it often comes down to internecine warfare among families and neighbors. Of course, that is also true of Duke/UNC and Indiana/Purdue, but the difference is that both these rivalries play each other multiple times per year, one of the reasons Mack finds them better. However, much like a football rivalry, Kentucky and Louisville have exactly one game in each sport to get it right, and if they come up on the short end, they must suffer the fans of the opposing team's schadenfreude for an entire year. The other two rivalries so highly thought of by Perkins only have to wait a few games. Only in the rare instance of a sweep is truly similar suffering among the others.
So my position is that contra Perkins, it is the relative lack of games that makes the rivalry better, more intense and therefore "better" by my definition of the term. To me, the Auburn/Alabama rivalry is truly the gold standard. Thankfully, UK and Louisville fans are not so overtaken by mutual loathing that they destroy each other's objects of reverence, but the rivalry here in the Commonwealth is only slightly less intense.
So what say you, Big Blue Nation? When you think of what makes a better rivalry, which argument seems more persuasive to you?
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I don't think UK-Lousiville is necessarily a better rivalry --
but I think being out of conference helps. Playing too much seems to water it down. Let’s face it – Duke and UNC play 3 times some years. Too much.
What makes Alabama-Auburn the most intense is two things (1) nothing else to live for among most of its fans (kidding – sort of); and (2) it is a one time a year game. And I mean that since the fans could not care less about what happens in basketball.
Subjective is right
I suppose for a fan the most heated rivalry is the school you most hate to lose to. In Kentucky, that has varied over the years based on the geography of the fan. Before the Louisville series resumed in the early 1980s, fans on the north end of KY hated to lose to IU worse than any other. Those on the southern end of the state hated Tenn. with a passion. Some of us simply hated them both! Today, I imagine there are still those UK fans who hate to lose to Tenn. worse than to Louisville.
Furthermore
most of us would hate to lose to Duke worse than to UL or UT, and we don’t even play Duke except in the event of late round pairings in the NCAA tourney every once in a Big Blue moon.
I think that kind of supports my point.
The less often you play, up to a point, the more you’d hate to lose.
For me, a rivalry needs to have at least one game per year, though, to be a real rivalry. Considering Duke a “rival” is kind of a stretch.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I agree with you
Not my intention to suggest Duke was a traditional rival. I was sort of arguing against my own point.
I can see both sides of the playing issue
On the one hand, Glenn’s point about each season only allowing one shot at your rival is a good one. It gives that game a level of focus and importance by fans that can’t be equaled by the in-conference rivalries which might play as many as 3 times in a season (or even 4 in rare occasions).
On the other hand, in-conference rivalries have the added incentive of winning the conference title (regular season and tournament) at the expense of your rival or denying them a title even if you yourself don’t have a chance at it. The increased stakes give an edge to those games which a non-conference rivalry can’t match.
That’s just one component of course, and much like the question of “best rivalry” is entirely subjective, I don’t think either of these situations is demonstrably “better” than the other.
Age is always advancing. And I believe it's up to no good. - Harry Dresden
"... a Demarcus Cousins non intentional (sic) elbow ..."
Mr. Perkins might be giving us all a wink with that line, but if not, I have some great ocean front land I’d like to sell him.
I think Glenn is being kind here. Perkins’ “argument,” based on how many times two teams have played determining how good a rivalry is, is, I don’t know, weak.
I don't think it's weak, maybe just mis-stated
I think we can all agree that in order to have a good rivalry, two teams need to play each other consistently. It’s that consistency that I think he was going for by using the total games count. It might have been better to use “total seasons” instead, but it would amount to the same thing.
And it’s not an outlandish tie-breaker. Given two rivalries that are otherwise equal, if one of them has involved over 200 games and the other around 50, doesn’t that count for something?
Age is always advancing. And I believe it's up to no good. - Harry Dresden
To be honest, I don't think so, and here's why.
Male vs. Manual has been a rivalry since before 1900, but does that make it a bigger/better rivalry than St. X vs. Trinity (which didn’t even exist until after Male/Manual had played 50 or 60 times) or possibly even Male vs. Ballard.
I think once you get past a certain number of games played, it’s all moot.
I just scored
season tickets for basketball this year. As much as I am into the UL/UK rivalry, being from Louisville and all, if I had to choose between the UL game or UNC, I would be taking my seat to watch the Tarheels. UL needs to get their program back up to top ten level and that will make the rivalry even better.
I do believe that one of the great points of the UL rivalry is that it covers two sports and that is great. Some years we get to brag twice.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
I don't see how college would be that much different than the pros in this regard
and rivalries like Red Sox vs Yankees, Lakers vs Celtics and (Steelers + Officials) vs (Everyone Else in the NFL) are some of the most famous rivalries in sports. So, I don’t think meeting more than once a year hurts anything- in the NBA rivals can play 7 games in a single series.
That said, I do think our rivalry with UofL may be a little down- but that is only because they haven’t beaten us for a while… they need to step it up and hold up their end…
.
"I watch (UK) every night... I am going to support them for the rest of my life. I'm a Wildcat for the rest of my life." -- JWall, 2/8/11
the fans determine what is a rivalry. numbers
Mean nothing. We play Florida every year in football, is it a rivalry? The media and now the internet feed the fires that only take a small spark to start.
Pittsburgh Steelers fans hate Cincinnati. Vice versa. Check the numbers on that one.
It’s a statistically correct misrepresentation of facts………how’s that for an oxymoron?
UK/UL is beyond numbers. It’s in the breeding. It’s steak vs. Tofu. Good vs.Evil. The Superfriends vs. The Legion of Doom
I tried for two weeks to get out of a training seminar a few years ago just because it was held in Louisville. And then before I went, I went and bought a new UK Plate for the car, and stickers for the Windows. I word blue all week, and on Friday my best UK hat was part of my wardrobe on casual day. That’s a rivalry.
I don’t even like buying Wayne County Cardinals clothes to support my kids school. And I refuse to put anything red on the car.
My boat is the Wet Wildcat.
That’s a rivalry.
I am now and shall forever be the Cat in The Hat, The Artist Formerly Known As ABC!!!
by Greg Alan Edwards on Aug 22, 2011 10:55 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
At first blush I agreed with Mack, but
then I started thinking about the fans involved. After all, the rivalry is carried closest to the heart by the fan. Now, compare the fan bases.
UNC vs Duke
UNC – I’d rate their fan base pretty high. They’ve been a power in basketball for decades and they’re a state university. That alone builds a good fan base. Generations attend and support the Tar Heels. Due to their history they have developed a basketball fan base across generations.
Duke – They can put together 300 blue painted students that didn’t even know what a basketball was three years ago, make them look like thousands since their gym (which quit being “quaint” forty years ago) is so small there’s no place to go that you shouldn’t. Basketball bloodlines? 86% of their students are from out of state.
UK vs UL
No explanation necessary – two rabid, knowledgeable, proud, contentious fan bases. Hands down – best rivalry.
Don't take life too seriously; no one gets out alive.
I think UNC and Duke have great fans.
Like you, I just feel the intensity of the Kentucky/Louisville contests is higher, and to me, that matters more than how many times they have played.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
For overall intensity...
Among the rivalries mentioned and unmentioned you have some like UM and Ohio State, which is very intense when it comes to football. The outcome of that game can save a coach’s job, even if it were otherwise disappointing, and the season could be stellar, but if you lost that game…pffft. And living within listening distance of both Ohio and Michigan radio stations, as I do, the sports stations are full of nothing else prior and after the football games. And the phone in shows have plenty of crossover calls from the “other guys”. But in basketball the teams are not both consistently that competitive to render the same level of passion.
Texas vs. TA&M is good, but the competitive level is kind of lop sided.
UNC vs. Duke is full of vitriol, but they really don’t have that much in football, but in basketball it is there in every meeting, and in trumps.
USC and UCLA defintely in football, etc.
But the venom in the UK vs. UL games transcends the sports involve. There was a long period when it dead, why should a top tier school play a MAC team and give them a boost to their program, after all? Well it is strong and growing. Doubt the importance, go over to the UL posts, they hate anything Blue! Many Cat fans would rather wear orange, rather than red. And it is in both of the major sports.
UK – UL may not be the greatest rivalry, but it is surely right up there.IMHO YMMV
For football (non-SEC) I'd have to go with:
OSU vs Mich; Texas vs Okla; USC vs UCLA and, of course, Slippery Rock vs Mercyhurst.
Don't take life too seriously; no one gets out alive.
I mean maybe I'm crazy, but...
I come from a split household. My father is a UofL fan and I’ve been raised by my mother (and every single other member of my family) as a UK fan. When I left for Miami (please refrain from any stupid infraction comments, please and thank you) my blood still ran blue. That being said, I hate no other school more that I do than Florida. After that comes Duke and then Tennessee. I mean obviously I don’t want to lose to Louisville, but seriously, what does it matter if we do? Sure a tiny percentage of our state will have bragging rights, but honestly come March, who will be more happy? Yep…those wearing blue….
Go Cats and Go Canes!
I confess ...
… living in Louisville might have colored my thinking just a little bit. Sometimes I forget that not everybody lives in enemy territory. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
What hurts the UK-UL rivalry
at least in the national perception, is that often the stakes aren’t that high. Rarely do the teams meet with anything on the line beyond bragging rights – no conference titles, no tournament advancement (since ’83, I think), no #1 rankings. Duke-UNC, Alabama-Auburn, Michigan-Ohio State often has that sort of backdrop to take it to the next level.
Braggin rights are clearly important, so I don’t mean to diminish the series at all. But it does take it down a notch.
Lately, you are right.
Back when the rivalry first restarted, there was always a national ranking on the line.
This year, I expect some of that gloss will return.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Like Real Estate And Politics
Location, location, location. All politics is local. Same with rivalries. Any attempt to nationalize college sports rivalries falls to a dilution of passion and is limited to attempts at bloodless statistical analysis as per Perkins.
"Statistics are no substitute for judgment" — Henry Clay (my namesake)
I think that's pretty true.
It always looks more like a rivalry from within than from without.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Mark Bradley in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution said it best.
If Alabama or Auburn ever gets nuclear capability, Tennessee will be on the Gulf of Mexico.
Slogan for the NCAA: If it ain't broke, break it.
by UKCat on Aug 23, 2011 1:08 PM EDT reply actions 3 recs
I think that Auburn is now checking into chemical options, due to recent activity by Bama Fans.
LOL
I lived down there for about three years……it gets almost as ugly as a red hat in a Wildcat bar down there regularly.
I am now and shall forever be the Cat in The Hat, The Artist Formerly Known As ABC!!!
by Greg Alan Edwards on Aug 23, 2011 1:15 PM EDT up reply actions
This is already the case in one sport
India beat Pakistan in the Cricket World Cup this year. Now that’s a rivalry.
Age is always advancing. And I believe it's up to no good. - Harry Dresden
I read where Mike Rutherford of Card Chronicle
is becoming the new College basketball guy for SBN, I think it’s great for Mike, but maybe they should have gotten someone who is used to covering a better grade of basketball????…..lol…..Congrats Mike
That should keep the home fires burning for a while……..lol
I am now and shall forever be the Cat in The Hat, The Artist Formerly Known As ABC!!!
by Greg Alan Edwards on Aug 23, 2011 1:20 PM EDT reply actions
UL-UK Rivalry
While our rivalry is pretty intense, I must admit that there are other rivalries that carry a lot more weight. WE may match with intensity, but after the game is over we are both left with nothing but state bragging rights.
The Duke – NC rivalry has huge implications in their league standings. They play twice within a two week period in February, and then there is always the possibility of an ACC Tournament matchup a few weeks later.
Can you even Imagine what the state of Kentucky would be like if we played each other TWICE within one month?
Each rivalry has its own personality and place in college lore. So far, our rivalry hasn’t reached the heights or history of many others.
"...nothing but state bragging rights.?
Growing up in Kentucky and going to school there state I always feel bragging rights are pretty high on the ladder. We’re talking about bragging rights of Kentucky, not somewhere like Delaware or Iowa. It’s also what makes the Kentucky Derby not the Florida Derby.
I think it’s in the water.
Don't take life too seriously; no one gets out alive.
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