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Bobby Knight's Son: Rules, Schmules, Let My Dad Help Me Recruit

This was posted in the Fanshots by Acdixon and I am just getting around to waxing all indignant about it.  It seems that good old Bobby Knight violated NCAA bylaws by contacted players his son Pat, now the Lamar University head basketball coach, was recruiting:

Bob Knight, according to a report in the Indianapolis Star, spoke to high school prospects Jason Smith and Donnell Minton during their recruitment by Lamar coach Pat Knight. [link to Star story added by me]

This is indeed a secondary violation, and could have more than just slap-on-the-wrist implications depending upon when the violation occurred.  If it happened during the July recruiting period, it could cost Pat Knight and Lamar four recruiting contacts next year, as penalties are heightened during the July period.

Star-divide

The particular rule in question is this one:

13.1.2 Permissible Recruiters.
13.1.2.1 General Rule. All in-person, on- and off-campus recruiting contacts with a prospective student-athlete or the prospective student-athlete’s relatives or legal guardians shall be made only by authorized institutional staff members. Such contact, as well as correspondence and telephone calls, by representatives of an institution’s athletics interests is prohibited except as otherwise permitted in this section. Violations of this bylaw involving individuals other than a representative of an institution’s athletics interests shall be considered institutional violations per Constitution 2.8.1; however, such violations shall not affect the prospective student-athlete’s eligibility. (Revised: 8/5/04)

... and, more specifically ...

13.1.3.4 Permissible Callers.
13.1.3.4.1 Institutional Coaching Staff Members—General Rule. All telephone calls made to and received from a prospective student-athlete (or the prospective student-athlete’s parents, legal guardians or coaches) must be made and received by the head coach or one or more of the assistant coaches who count toward the numerical limitations in Bylaw 11.7.4 (see Bylaw 11.7.1.2). In bowl subdivision football and women’s rowing, such telephone calls also may be made and received by a graduate assistant coach, provided the coach has successfully completed the coaches’ certification examination per Bylaw 11.5.1.1. (Revised: 1/10/95, 1/9/96 effective 8/1/96, 1/12/04 effective 8/1/04, 4/27/06 effective 8/1/06, 5/26/06, 12/12/06, 12/15/06)

13.1.2.2 lists a number of exceptions, none of which include the father of the head basketball coach unless he is an "authorized institutional staff member," which Bob Knight is apparently not.

Of course, Pat Knight says this is all [expletive deleted]:

"At least I'm not paying them," Pat Knight continued. "The NCAA should look into guys that are paying players and not worry about guys that are doing it the right way. ... I don't care if my dad is a celebrity or not. I think it's (expletive), honestly. The guy is my dad. If he wants to say hello to a recruit, he can. If we get reprimanded, fine. They need to check into guys that are outright cheating instead of nickel-dime stuff like that."

Well, Pat, let's examine that logic for a moment.  How many basketball coaches in America would love to have a Hall of Fame former coach at their beck and call to help entice recruits to their school?  You see where I'm going here, Pat?  You see why this is a problem?  Please tell me you aren't as demagogic and blind to reality as your famous father.

Both father and son should be well aware of this rule, and since Bob Knight allegedly ran a clean program wherever he coached, it's hard to imagine that he did so without an understanding of the rules he was so stringently upholding.  This same rule, by the way, is what causes schools to have to report secondary violations when boosters contact recruits even without their knowledge.  How much more egregious is it when a storied former coach, renowned for his strict rules compliance, does it?

I think both father and son have some explaining to do, and expletive-laced rants about which rules are important and which aren't don't cut it in my opinion.

What do you think?

Comment 35 comments  |  0 recs  | 

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Not only a HOF coach

but also a current ESPN commentator. Seems either could influence a kid.

The Knights know better. Like many, they are simply angry they got caught.

by jdogblue on Oct 21, 2011 8:08 AM EDT reply actions  

Great point about the ESPN commentator.

I didn’t think of that, but you’re right, that could easily be seen as and advantage.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 21, 2011 8:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

Karma is a bitch Bob Knight

Cheater…..

Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun

@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Oct 21, 2011 8:24 AM EDT reply actions  

You know, I wonder

Is Bob Knight really much of an asset? To the recruit’s parents and to most of us, we know him as the hall of fame coach. But to most 18 year olds? He’s just the asshat that chokes players and couldn’t cut it at Texas Tech. If I were a recruit, I’d probably be terrified he’d sit in on practice one day and scream at me for no reason.

by NYCCats on Oct 21, 2011 8:27 AM EDT reply actions  

Fixed this for you
Is Bob Knight really much of an asset?

Why yes, yes he is.

Dayman, Fighter of the Nightman, Champion of the Sun

@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Oct 21, 2011 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, no kidding.

Dude didn’t or couldn’t recruit the best of the best when he was at TT, what makes his son think he can do it for him now? If kids and their parents didn’t want the real Knight, I’d highly doubt they are going to be clamoring to play for his sloppy seconds, his son.

Also, Pat obviously doesn’t have all that much confidence in his own recruiting abilities. You know, since he’s looking to his old man for assistance.

by BigSkyCat on Oct 21, 2011 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Heh. +1

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 21, 2011 8:48 AM EDT up reply actions  

LOVE IT!!!

"Every sweet has it's sour, every evil it's good."
Ralph Waldo Emerson

by KYCatwoman on Oct 22, 2011 8:52 AM EDT up reply actions  

Five bucks says Knight claims he didn't know about the rule.

Either Knight.

The honest truth is that while it is indeed a valid rule and must be followed, it is a stupid rule. I am not going to start another round of the NCAA debate, just simply chalking this up as another notch in the post for my side of the argument. As much as I hate to agree with Knight or his son about anything.

That should be the litmus test for when something has become completely useless. When both the good guys AND the bad guys start uniting against it.

Us being the good guys of course…..;-)

I am now and shall forever be the Cat in The Hat, The Artist Formerly Known As ABC!!!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Oct 21, 2011 9:37 AM EDT reply actions  

Stupid? maybe ...

Or maybe not. Let’s suppose that there isn’t any such rule. Now, imagine this scenario:

Kentucky starts having Lebron, John Wall and company call recruits hawking the KY program. Seems like that might be a serious advantage for UK; and make it impossible for most schools to compete at all.

Or carry it one step further …. a school pays someone (influential) to contact recruits. Okay, so maybe you can prohibit cash payments, but there are oodles of ways to make arrangements that are of the “scratch my back, I’ll scratch yours” variety.

It would clearly be the intent of the NCAA regs to provide a more level playing field in recruitment so that all schools have a shot.

by jeffy on Oct 21, 2011 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

Very good points, Jeffy.

People claim that this rule is stupid, but it’s not stupid at all.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 21, 2011 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions  

I have to agree

with jeffy. I can see the validity of this rule a lot more than most NCAA rules. It’s one thing for Calipari to be able to tell a kid, yeah, I’ve coached Derrick Rose and John Wall, who are both in the NBA, so you should come play for me. It’s another thing for John Wall to call the kid up and tout UK’s program.

You can put it on the board....YES.

by twocee on Oct 21, 2011 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions  

well I think it's a stupid rule.....

nah nah nah nah nah nahhhhhhhhh……lol

I am now and shall forever be the Cat in The Hat, The Artist Formerly Known As ABC!!!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Oct 21, 2011 9:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

Stupid is as stupid does. :)

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Oct 21, 2011 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

lol......

I am now and shall forever be the Cat in The Hat, The Artist Formerly Known As ABC!!!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Oct 21, 2011 11:33 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paying players

If pat Knight knows of so many people paying players, he should come forward with that also or he is equally guilty.

Or maybe he just believes his father and assumes “select other” schools do that. Either way they broke a secondary rule and tried to divert it as “not as bad as everyone else”.

by ANGx01 on Oct 21, 2011 10:06 AM EDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

Welcome to A Sea of Blue.

I agree.

It would be nice if these coaches quit making claims about other coaches and either produced evidence to support their accusations, or shut the hell up.

Just sayin’

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 21, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

Got caught speeding ...

The Knights remind me of the classic speeder caught by the police whose complaint is: “Shouldn’t you guys be out looking for criminals?”

Your typical speeder knows he broke the rule. But his violation isn’t ‘serious’. Now he might be able to convince me that speeding isn’t a serious violation (but he’ll have a hard time doing so); the truth is that he isn’t worried about the severity of the offense, he just thinks that he doesn’t deserve to be penalized.

by jeffy on Oct 21, 2011 10:10 AM EDT reply actions  

Pat is right!

The NCAA needs to “check into guys that are outright cheating instead of nickel-dime stuff” like the police agencies need to check into felonies instead of all that misdemeanor stuff.

by tyler cottrell on Oct 21, 2011 11:15 AM EDT reply actions  

Pat is wrong.

See Jeffy’s comment above.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 21, 2011 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

The apple doesn't fall far from the tree

Bob Knight was one of the all time great coaches, but has always been a horse’s behind. It seems clear Pat Knight will never be a great coach but is well on his way towards being a first-class horse’s behind.

by chicagoblues on Oct 21, 2011 12:10 PM EDT reply actions  

John Wall contacts

It seems I’ve read about John Wall being “good friends” with Shabazz Muhammad and “talking all the time”…at least according to Muhammad.

I hear reports of former alumni in the NBA of many schools talking and visiting with top recruits all the time. The schools can’t control this and neither can the NCAA.

I agree with Jeffy’s point but the reality seems to me to be in direct conflict with this rule.

by MTCAT on Oct 21, 2011 12:21 PM EDT reply actions  

John Wall

Reportedly escorted some UK recruits at BBM to Keeneland the day before BBM. If so, that would also be a violation. Read this in KY media last week, don’t know if accurate or not.

Only UK coaches, players, and staff can escort players on recruiting visits.

by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 21, 2011 3:07 PM EDT up reply actions  

You would think Sandy Bell would have had to clear such a trip.

I can’t believe that would have slipped through their fingers with all the NBA players there and the potential for violations so high. In fact, I don’t believe it did.

There must be something more to that.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 21, 2011 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I Can't Say For Sure

Read it in KY media so not 100% accurate there.

But Wall cannot help UK recruit now.

by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 21, 2011 7:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

KSR Reported It (With Photo) On October 14th But Removed The Photo Since Then

Apparently, you can’t post pics of recruits on visits, so we took down the picture that originally accompanied this post. Sorry!

An astute KSR reader reports that DaJuan Coleman, Shabazz Muhammad, Archie Goodwin, Alex Poythress, and Willie Cauley were at Keeneland today. Their tour guides? John Wall and Doron Lamb. Rest assured, they are having a blast:

by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 22, 2011 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

They could have been with them and still not acting as "tour guides."

Wall has plausible deniability, especially since Lamb was there.

I see no problem here.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 22, 2011 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

You do have to be recruiting.

It isn’t illegal for a non-staff member to have a conversation with a recruit. It is a rules violation to

recruit
him.

If you read the article above, it looks for all the world like Knight the Elder was recruiting. Perhaps the NCAA will see it otherwise, but I’m not sure how.

This is a rule the NCAA largely enforces by media. When the media reports such a contact, like in this case, that’s when it gets enforced. Rarely would the NCAA investigate something like that on their own.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 21, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oops. Hit the blockquote button and not the bold button.

But you get the idea. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Oct 21, 2011 3:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

PIYF. '-)

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Oct 21, 2011 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

I'd love to-

Call Knight a CHEATER to his face, because of all the times he called UK a cheater… Even though it probably did not help his son much,to have an old, washed up, non-revelant, quitter recruit for him…

"You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't"

by iam4ukintn on Oct 21, 2011 1:39 PM EDT reply actions  

The Knight family

has apparently decided that the rules apply to everyone else. The pontificating, sanctimonious a-hole factor runs deep in their genes. Rules, stupid or not, and this one is a little of both, are enforced by a governing body when broken (unless it’s Duke) I used to like Bobby until he became a parody of himself. As stated above, the apple didn’t fall too far from the petrified tree it originated in.

by blupride on Oct 21, 2011 2:10 PM EDT reply actions  

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