Defensive Score Sheet: Kentucky Wildcats at South Carolina
If you haven't already, make sure you read Glenn's piece below where he discusses the outstanding defensive effort the Cats put on the floor against South Carolina. Also scroll down for the Big Blue Links.
One of the great voids in basketball is the lack of accounting for the defensive contributions by players during a game. Box scores only keep track of three defensive plays: blocks, steals, and defensive rebounds. It doesn't take long to see that there is a lot more to good defense than those three things, yet because they are the only defensive measures available they tend to dominate the conversation when talking about great defenders. To put it another way, we all know that Liggins is a fantastic defender, but if you haven't watched many UK games you probably are unaware of just how good he is. On the other hand, you don't have to watch many games to know that Jared Sullinger is a really good offensive player or that Doron Lamb is an outstanding shooter. Watching the games helps you appreciate how good those guys are, but it's also pretty easy to see based on their offensive numbers.
Enter Dean Oliver, author of the book Basketball on Paper. Oliver now works for the Denver Nuggets, but several years ago he was a consultant for the Charlotte Sting of the WNBA and as part of that job organized an effort to collect better information about the defensive side of the ball during league games. Oliver did this by enlisting the aid of a host of volunteers who would attend games and track defensive plays using a special score sheet. The effort was aptly named Project Defensive Score Sheet and Oliver wrote about it in the afore mentioned book.
When I read about this last fall I was very intrigued. I've been working to gain a better appreciation for defense for several years now and this concept appealed to me as a way to continue that effort. I thought about making these sheets for UK games this season but didn't follow through for a variety of reasons (general laziness mostly). As it turns out, David Hess had the same idea except that he actually went out and did it and has been posting his score sheets on his Audacity of Hoops blog.
That was enough to get me off my lazy behind so I tracked the defensive possessions for UK's game against South Carolina. Follow the jump to see the results as well as a bit more detail about what actually gets tracked.
The charts are below, but here is what you will find in them along with a brief explanation where appropriate:From the official box score:
- minutes played (Min)
- defensive rebounds (Def Rb)
- Blocks (Blks)
- Steals (Stls)
What I track during the game for Player X:
- forced missed shots (F. Miss): field goal attempts that are missed when Player X defends the shot
- defended made shots (Def FGM): field goal attempts that are made when Player X defends the shot
- missed Free Throws (FT Miss): free throws that are missed when Player X commits a foul
- made Free Throws (Def FTM): free throws that are made when Player X commits a foul
- forced turnovers (F.TO): turnovers forced by the defense of Player X (not just steals)
- deflections (Defl.): basically anytime Player X does something to deflect the ball, but doesn't result in a turnover or missed shot. I would also add jump balls that don't change the possession here.
Deflections are not in Oliver's original score sheet, but I added them because they are something I've heard/read that many coaches like to chart during games as a way of gauging how active their players are on defense and hey- I'm keeping track of this kind of thing already so why not?
What gets calculated for each individual player:
- Stops: The number of times Player X does something to end the opponent's possession and get the ball back for his team without giving up any points (grab a defensive rebound, force a turnover, etc)
- Stop Percentage (Stop%): The percentage of personal possessions used that Player X forces a stop (as opposed to the opponent scoring)
- Percentage of Team Defensive Possessions Used (%TmDPoss): The percentage of a team's defensive possessions that Player X uses. You can think of this as the percentage of time that Player X is the one defending the ball (that's not completely accurate but will give you the general idea).
- Individual Defensive Rating (Def Rtg): How efficient the opposing offense was at scoring while being defended by Player X. Lower is better, but keep in mind that this in particular is judgment-neutral. That is, just because a player has a high Defensive Rating it doesn't necessarily mean he played poor defense - it could mean that he was guarding a very good offensive player.
I'm going to refer you to the book for the specifics in calculating these things because otherwise this is going to be about four times as long.
Basically how this works is that when a shot is attempted, I mark down which player - if any - is defending it and the appropriate category gets marked for the result of the play. If two or more defenders are involved on a play then credit gets divided evenly between them. For example, if Knight and Lamb put a double team on the ball handler and he travels, Knight and Lamb would each get a 0.5 F.TO. Finally, if an offensive player isn't guarded then the result gets marked down in a "Team" category. There are some other ways that plays can get listed in the Team category and I'll discuss one of those after the charts.
Obviously a lot of this is subjective and depends on the attentiveness and experience of the observer, but I think overall most people will arrive at largely the same results. Enough with the talk though - here are the defensive score sheets for UK's victory over South Carolina.
| Kentucky | Shot Defense | Ball Handling | Calculations | |||||||||||
| Name | Min | Def Rb | Blks | F.Miss | Def FGM | FT Miss | Def FTM | Stls | F.TO | Defl | Stops | Stop% | %TmDPoss | Def Rtg |
| Terrence Jones | 37 | 6 | 2 | 8 | 3.5 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 3.83 | 1 | 9.5 | 0.68 | 0.21 | 83.9 |
| Josh Harrellson | 26 | 3 | 2 | 5.5 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 0 | 0.5 | 0 | 3.7 | 0.31 | 0.18 | 99.1 |
| Darius Miller | 39 | 4 | 2 | 8.5 | 0 | 2 | 2 | 0 | 0.5 | 0 | 5.1 | 0.85 | 0.09 | 82.9 |
| Brandon Knight | 35 | 6 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2.33 | 0 | 7.3 | 0.83 | 0.13 | 81.1 |
| Doron Lamb | 16 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.5 | 0.14 | 0.06 | 93.6 |
| DeAndre Liggins | 36 | 6 | 0 | 9 | 0.5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1.33 | 3 | 7.6 | 0.84 | 0.14 | 80.5 |
| Jon Hood | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.5 | 0 | 0.5 | 1.00 | 0.01 | 87.2 |
| Eloy Vargas | 4 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0.00 | 0.02 | 89.9 |
| Jarrod Polson | 3 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.0 | 0.00 | 0.00 | 87.9 |
| TEAM | 0 | 1 | 0 | 3 | 5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 1 | 5.3 | 0.51 | 0.16 | 90.7 |
| Tracked Totals | 40 | 18 | 9 | 17 | 13 | 5 | 39.5 | 0.61 | 1.0 | 85.7 | ||||
| BoxScore | 26 | 6 | 38 | 19 | 9 | 17 | 5 | 13 | 39.1 | 0.59 | 1.0 | 87.9 | ||
| South Carolina | Shot Defense | Ball Handling | Calculations | |||||||||||
| Name | Min | Def Rb | Blks | F.Miss | Def FGM | FT Miss | Def FTM | Stls | F.TO | Defl | Stops | Stop% | %TmDPoss | Def Rtg |
| Damontre Harris | 22 | 0 | 0 | 3 | 1.5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0.5 | 0 | 1.4 | 0.49 | 0.04 | 101.9 |
| Lakeem Jackson | 26 | 4 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 1 | 0 | 3.6 | 1.00 | 0.05 | 96.0 |
| Sam Muldrow | 36 | 8 | 3 | 7.5 | 3.5 | 1 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 0 | 10.0 | 0.67 | 0.23 | 94.6 |
| Brian Richardson | 27 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 3.4 | 0.44 | 0.12 | 103.9 |
| Bruce Ellington | 24 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 0.5 | 0 | 2.0 | 0.52 | 0.06 | 101.7 |
| Eric Smith | 20 | 0 | 0 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0.5 | 0 | 1.2 | 0.29 | 0.06 | 104.9 |
| Ramon Galloway | 22 | 4 | 0 | 2 | 1.5 | 0 | 6 | 2 | 3 | 0 | 5.9 | 0.58 | 0.15 | 99.8 |
| Malik Cooke | 19 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1.5 | 2 | 4 | 0 | 0.5 | 0 | 0.7 | 0.18 | 0.06 | 106.2 |
| RJ Slawson | 4 | 0 | 1 | 0.5 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1.2 | 1.00 | 0.02 | 99.7 |
| TEAM | 0 | 1 | 0 | 5 | 6 | 1 | 4 | 0 | 4 | 0 | 6.2 | 0.44 | 0.21 | 105.7 |
| Tracked Totals | 26 | 20 | 5 | 24 | 15 | 2 | 35.6 | 0.54 | 1.0 | 100.9 | ||||
| BoxScore | 21 | 5 | 27 | 20 | 5 | 24 | 5 | 14 | 34.9 | 0.53 | 1.0 | 101.5 | ||
I've included the official box score totals so you can compare what I came up with against the official record. I highlighted a few areas that caught my eye, but since this is already getting long I'll only make a couple of brief comments:
- You'll notice that Jones, Knight, and Liggins have a ".03" in their forced TO count. This comes from a play in the second half when Knight and Liggins double teamed the SC ball handler (I don't remember who it was) who picked up his dribble. The play occurred near the baseline and the SC guy was under a lot of pressure. When he tried to pass out of the double team to get the ball back out, Jones was there to pick it off. In the box score, Jones gets the steal, but Liggins and Knight were critically important for making that play work, so they split the credit and each got 0.33 of a Forced Turnover for that play.
- Slawson's block came in the first half when he blocked Miller's shot attempt off Darius for a turnover. On that play, Muldrow came over and got between Miller and the basket which gave Slawson the chance for the block, so Muldrow and Slawson split the credit for the miss and Slawson got full credit for the turnover. I think this play is indicative of the value of these score sheets as otherwise Muldrow's contribution to that play would exist only in the memory of the people who actually noticed it. This is also why Slawson has a block but only 0.5 of a Forced Miss.
- There was a play in the second half where Jones bit on a Muldrow ball fake and Muldrow drove past him and scored over Harrellson. I split the Def FGM between Josh and Terrence because Josh wasn't able to stop the score but it was Terrence's mistake that put him (Josh) in that position.
- There are 5 free throw attempts listed for SC's Team category. These were UK's free throws in the last 41 seconds of the game where it was clear that the fouls were being committed by the "closest guy available" and were not a reflection of the particular defense played by the individual but rather by that particular team strategy.
- You'll see there are some discrepancies between my counts and the official box score. Frankly, I'm surprised there weren't more given that this was my first try at this sort of thing. I don't know exactly where in my sheets they occurred so I just left them in, but if you compare the calculations from my tracked totals to those from the official box score you'll see that they didn't cause a huge change.
Whew! That's a lot of words. I plan to continue doing these for the rest of the season as my television viewing allows. I have some ideas for how I can make them more accurate as well as more detailed (such as dividing shot attempts into 2's and 3's). If anyone out there is interested in having a go at this I'll happily email you the sheets I used.
Update (2-07-2011): I discovered a mistake in the calculations portion of the tables. Posted below are the correct tables.
| Kentucky | Shot Defense | Ball Handling | Calculations | |||||||||||||
| Name | Min | Def Rb | Blks | F.Miss | Def FGM | FT Miss | Def FTM | Stls | F.TO | Defl | Stops | DScPoss | DPoss | Stop% | %TmDPoss | Def Rtg |
| Terrence Jones | 37 | 6 | 2 | 8 | 3.5 | 2 | 3 | 3.83 | 1 | 9.4 | 4.4 | 13.76 | 0.68 | 0.23 | 83.77 | |
| Josh Harrellson | 26 | 3 | 2 | 5.5 | 6 | 1 | 5 | 0.5 | 3.8 | 8.3 | 12.03 | 0.31 | 0.28 | 105.1 | ||
| Darius Miller | 39 | 4 | 2 | 8.5 | 2 | 2 | 0.5 | 5.3 | 0.9 | 6.16 | 0.85 | 0.1 | 82.52 | |||
| Brandon Knight | 35 | 6 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2.33 | 6.9 | 1.5 | 8.3 | 0.83 | 0.14 | 80.73 | ||
| Doron Lamb | 16 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 5 | 0.7 | 3.3 | 3.9 | 0.17 | 0.15 | 101.69 | |||||
| DeAndre Liggins | 36 | 6 | 9 | 0.5 | 4 | 2 | 1 | 1.33 | 3 | 7.5 | 1.4 | 8.94 | 0.84 | 0.15 | 79.8 | |
| Jon Hood | 4 | 0.5 | 0.5 | 0.0 | 0.5 | 1 | 0.08 | 81.24 | ||||||||
| Eloy Vargas | 4 | 1 | 0.0 | 1.0 | 1 | 0 | 0.15 | 107.56 | ||||||||
| Jarrod Polson | 3 | 0.0 | 0.0 | 0 | 0 | 87.9 | ||||||||||
| TEAM | 40 | 1 | 3 | 5 | 4 | 1 | 5.4 | 5.0 | 10.38 | 0.52 | 0.16 | 90.56 | ||||
| Tracked Totals | 200 | 26 | 6 | 40 | 18 | 9 | 17 | 5 | 13 | 5 | 39.33 | 25.65 | 64.98 | 0.61 | 0.2 | 87.51 |
| BoxScore | 200 | 26 | 6 | 38 | 19 | 9 | 17 | 5 | 13 | 38.8 | 26.7 | 65.44 | 0.59 | 0.2 | 88.04 | |
| South Carolina | Shot Defense | Ball Handling | Calculations | |||||||||||||
| Name | Min | Def Rb | Blks | F.Miss | Def FGM | FT Miss | Def FTM | Stls | F.TO | Defl | Stops | DScPoss | DPoss | Stop% | %TmDPoss | Def Rtg |
| Damontre Harris | 22 | 3 | 1.5 | 0.5 | 1.9 | 1.5 | 3.43 | 0.56 | 0.05 | 101.16 | ||||||
| Lakeem Jackson | 26 | 4 | 1 | 1 | 1 | 2.8 | 0.0 | 2.84 | 1 | 0.04 | 97.14 | |||||
| Sam Muldrow | 36 | 8 | 3 | 7.5 | 3.5 | 1 | 3 | 3 | 9.4 | 4.9 | 14.25 | 0.66 | 0.22 | 95.57 | ||
| Brian Richardson | 27 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 3 | 0 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 2 | 3.6 | 4.4 | 7.94 | 0.45 | 0.12 | 103.62 |
| Bruce Ellington | 24 | 2 | 1 | 4 | 0.5 | 1.7 | 1.8 | 3.46 | 0.48 | 0.05 | 102.12 | |||||
| Eric Smith | 20 | 2 | 3 | 1 | 0.5 | 1.6 | 3.0 | 4.56 | 0.34 | 0.07 | 104.38 | |||||
| Ramon Galloway | 22 | 4 | 2 | 1.5 | 6 | 2 | 3 | 5.3 | 4.2 | 9.51 | 0.56 | 0.14 | 100.71 | |||
| Malik Cooke | 19 | 1.5 | 2 | 4 | 0.5 | 0.7 | 3.3 | 4 | 0.18 | 0.06 | 106.23 | |||||
| RJ Slawson | 4 | 1 | 0.5 | 1 | 1.2 | 0.0 | 1.24 | 1 | 0.02 | 99.59 | ||||||
| TEAM | 40 | 1 | 5 | 6 | 1 | 4 | 4 | 6.8 | 7.8 | 14.63 | 0.47 | 0.22 | 104.71 | |||
| Tracked Totals | 200 | 21 | 5 | 26 | 20 | 5 | 24 | 5 | 15 | 2 | 35.06 | 30.8 | 65.86 | 0.53 | 1 | 101.73 |
| BoxScore | 200 | 21 | 5 | 27 | 20 | 5 | 24 | 5 | 14 | 34.5 | 30.8 | 65.34 | 0.53 | 0.99 | 102.53 | |
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What a terric post!
I wish I had the patience to do something like this. It’s confirmation of some of the things we thought, and a revelation in other ways. In particular, who would have thought that Jones’ defense was that good. I think we all suspected Miller had a good defensive game, but it’s nice to see statistically.
I suppose that the converse of your comment in the last bullet point explaining the calculated ratings is also true — that just because a player has a high defensive rating doesn’t necessarily mean they played good defense, but rather they could have been defending a poor offensive player. I suppose we could make some general conclusions about that, but clearly, Liggins is getting the best offensive player on the team every time out, so we really don’t have to make many guesses there.
Knight’s prowess surprises me a little, and gives me some hope. He had been doing a relatively poor job, in my subjective opinion, up until around the time conference play began. He really stepped it up in the Louisville game, though, and has been tough on defense ever since. Nice to see that reflected in here.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Assignments
Your point on low Def Rtg is correct. I tried to keep track of who was guarding who (whom was guarding whom?) on the UK side, but gave up pretty early. From what I recall though, Jones was guarding Muldrow for the most part and Liggins was defending Ellington and Richardson.
I have a few ideas on how to record things so that I can go back and match up the defender with the shooter, but it might be a few games before I get all the kinks worked out.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
If Jones was guarding Muldrow...
I’m not sure how you can reconcile his good rating with Muldrow’s scoring. It looks like he didn’t get the “blame” for a lot of Muldrow’s baskets.
I don't know how much of the game time he defended Muldrow for
I’m going off of memory which is not always a good idea ;-) It’s entirely possible that I’m only remembering a handful of possessions when Jones was defending him and forgetting all the others when he wasn’t.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Ha...
My memory was the same as yours but, according to your ratings, Jorts was likely the main person guarding Muldrow. It would be interesting to go back to the game and check that out – if Muldrow was mostly TJ’s responsibility, then there’s some kind of defensive breakdown occurring that isn’t showing up in the ratings (my guess would be that Jorts ends up trying to guard Muldrow after offensive rebounds or potentially gets the blame for Muldrow’s put-backs). To add a little to this theory – if you recall Cal’s presser, he made a comment about showing a higlight reel of TJ getting dunked on, so I doubt he would agree with the rating for TJ.
Yep
Harrellson “guarded” Muldrow most of the game.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 24, 2011 1:18 PM EST up reply actions
I watched the defense
and I, too, remember seeing Jones on Muldrow often. I do remember Harrelson on him some (on switches), but I also remember Jones on him often.
No One Guarded Him Very Well
Muldrow got open pretty much. He was too quick for Harrellson.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 25, 2011 10:12 AM EST up reply actions
This is why I love advanced stats
You are able to quantify just how good Liggins is defensively.
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71
Glad you liked it!
I don’t know how “advanced” any of this is, it’s mostly just the opposite side of a typical box score, but it’s always nice when the results match what we see with our eyes.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
It's no wOBA or xFIP
Like you said, these are not seen in a box score…so I label them advanced.
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71
Yup
I’ll be interested to see what happens after a few more games and we get a better sense of what constitutes a “typical” defensive performance by each player.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
They play good defense....
and they don’t foul very often which is a must because of the lack of depth. I would think it would be really hard to play consistent defense with so much pressure on them not to foul especially late in games when fatigue is a factor.
by maysvilleblue on Jan 24, 2011 11:08 AM EST up reply actions
Very good news
He had a heck of a game Saturday. Hope we see more of that.
by maysvilleblue on Jan 24, 2011 2:08 PM EST up reply actions
Is the lower
the number the better? I don’t know how to interpret the data.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
For Def Rtg, yes
lower = fewer points scored. The others should be more intuitive, stops are good for a defense as are misses and turnovers, etc.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Thanks,
I couldn’t see how you could average all data since high is good in some categories and low is good in others.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
yeah, the details of the calculation aren't shown
They are in the book and Oliver tested them against what actually happened in the games so i think they are fairly solid, but they are complicated enough that I don’t it’s possible to figure it out just by looking at the chart.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Thanks,
I was pretty good at math but this was baffling me. I am not a huge fan of using stats to predict future outcomes but this set of stats seems more reliable than offensive numbers because defensive effort tends to be steadier than offensive.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
Prof., what's the thinking behind ...
free throws that are missed or made when Player X commits a foul? Not to state the obvious, but you can’t defend someone who’s shooting free throws. How does that reflect on the defender’s effort?
When Harrellson fouls someone, I rightly complain. But when the opponent misses the FT, I joke: “Good foul! Good foul!” Or when we see after the game that the other team shot poorly from the line, I sometimes joke with my wife that our FT defense was excellent.
Which is my way of saying we didn’t have a whole lot to do with it.
It's part of the accounting for defensive plays
Keep in mind that the numbers themselves are value-neutral. They are not making any statements about how good or bad a defender is based on whether they foul guys who score from the line, only that it is something that happened in the game and hence gets recorded.
Those free throws count for the score, so the fouling player bears some responsibility for them. Over the course of several games we might start to see that some players “know who to foul” by only fouling guys who are poor shooters, but that would be an interpretation, not something the results themselves will tell us.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
If you want to see if guys know "who to foul"
I would look at their season FT rates not whether they make the two that follow the foul. Even Jones occasionally hits his FTs :)
Either way I do like trying to figure out if a defender is just fouling willy nilly in bad situations or if he is only fouling when it can’t be avoided.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
True
But, for example, Liggins above had three fouls that resulted in 6 FTA, 4 of which were missed. That could be a 1 game thing, but over the next several games, if he continues to put up those kinds of results it might be worth watching to see if he is doing something – like only fouling poor shooters – that might help get those results.
Or he might not, but at least it’s something to pay a bit more attention to.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
He might be frustrating them so much
with his defense that they can’t regain their focus enough to make the FTs.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
I like that oldcat - thats what happened to their little guard
A man is nothing more than a summation of his scars!
I can see that now
opposing player: “Man, that DeAndre Liggins, I hate him man – why can’t he go make someone else’s life miserable!”
>misses free throw<
opposing player: “Crap! Now look what he made me do!”
>misses second free throw<
>Liggins grabs defensive rebound<
opposing player: ’Grrrrrr!!!"
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Liggins needs to get a little offense going, or his man will ignore him and double down on someone else.
Liggins scares me...
whenever he has the ball in his hands.
by maysvilleblue on Jan 25, 2011 10:29 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm...
I would think that Liggins stats would vary more than other people as far as who he fouls based on the fact that he is always assigned the other teams best player. I’m sure that doesn’t always equate to a good free throw shooter, but I bet more often than not he has to guard a higher percentage FT shooter.
by Clint Phelps on Jan 25, 2011 10:57 AM EST up reply actions
I think I see what you mean.
No one could predict that Eric Smith, a 53% FT shooter, would knock down all three of his attempts with the game on the line. But he did, and it was Lamb’s foul that created the possibility.
So even though the outcome was on the tail end of Smith’s FT distribution curve – I like to picture distribution curves above the players’ heads – Lamb is held responsible for any outcome that Smith’s probability-generating mechanism might have produced at the line. (You can see I put my Classical Civilization major to good use …)
Hm. I need to reconcile the premise of "value-neutral" numbers with the idea of assigning them to someone because they "bear some responsibility" for what happened. The two seem a bit at odds. My gut tells me the numbers don’t have to be neutral, that there’s nothing dirty about subjectivity in this exercise. We’re not pretending that the results are anything other than imperfect expressions of what we already sense from simply watching the game. But work beckons.
That's an excellent explanation
I might borrow that – I like the idea of those distribution curves over heads.
In terms of the value-neutral aspect, I think it helps to relate it to things we are already comfortable with. For example, the box score shows that Jones went 5-13 from the field. It doesn’t tell you whether it was a good idea for Jones to take those shots or whether he should have shot less, just that Jones attempted 13 field goals and only made 5 of them.
The value judgment comes from having watched the game and deciding whether Jones took good shots and just had a bad game or whether he was forcing shots when he should have been passing or somewhere in between. Different people might arrive at different conclusions.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
You might be able to get at the FT issue....
by examining the FT result on the basis of standard deviation from the mean using those individual distributions you’ve got floating overhead. That of course adds another dimension to the statistics and ratchets up the workload by another order of magnitude. If you decide to give it a shot, you might try one of the statistic packages that generate non-parametric results because we don’t really know what the distribution looks like.
Outstanding job, JLeverenz.
Yeah, have fun with that ;-)
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Polson's Def Rtg
Some of you might notice that Jarrod Polson has a def rtg despite not having any defensive stats. That is a result of how the rating is computed because it starts with the overall team rating and then adds/deducts based on the defensive results for the player.
In this case, we might think of Polson as having played “average UK team defense” for the 3 minutes he was in the game.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
I can't z through the comments.....
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71
Happens to me sometimes too
Seems one post every once in awhile the comments break, I can’t use any shortcuts and the only way to mark as read is to refresh the page. I haven’t tested to see if I even get the popup about new comments but I assume it is something to do with my IE mishandling the background script since I have never noticed it at home on FF.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Interesting read
And a lot of work. Great job! I can remember Rick Pitino charting deflections when he was at UK. He used to quote deflection numbers in post game interviews.
I think that was the first time I had heard a coach doing that
And since then I’ve heard or read passing comments by coaches, players, and writers about other people doing the same.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Nice work JLev
I was looking at the non-scoring modified tendex ratings (by minute) the other day and was a bit surprised that Eloy scored second after all the anti-Eloy comments. Josh was first. These are the little things players contribute, points removed. High scorers typically do poorly in this rating which currently has TJ and Darius in the middle and Brandon is last.
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
My Eyes
Liggins played the best defense for UK.
Muldrow played the best D for USC.
Not sure if the numbers agree with my eyes.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 24, 2011 10:54 AM EST reply actions
I think they do
Liggins and Muldrow had the best Def. Rtgs for their respective teams and both forced a lot of missed shots.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Excellent work
Great job putting this together and translating it into something comprehensible. It’s nice to be able to track this sort of thing and evaluate the real importance of someone like Liggins, who is a tremendous defensive stopper.
Well done!
by wildcatfaninexile on Jan 24, 2011 11:45 AM EST reply actions
Great work, JLeverenz
.
Very interesting, and will be to see how it progresses over the rest of the season. I even think it could be helpful if the coaching staff got a peek at it.
-- Tim
Lexington
I bet they already do something similar
They might not break it down into table format this way, but I bet when they go back over the coaches tape they mark down good and bad defensive possessions and what various players were doing that was good and what needs to be improved.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
I'm sure they do, as well
.
But since your work is both time consuming (going beyond ‘naked eye’ impressions, and noting multiple players on a single event) and also a little bit subjective, they will not already have something exactly like it.
Once you have a growing collection of games logged, it is no doubt going to have some really good value to it.
As a side note: you have 8 months or so to also tweak something for the gridiron Cats. :-)
-- Tim
Lexington
Someone else can do football
I watch football, but I don’t pretend to understand what’s going on beyond “catching the ball = good, dropping it = bad” ;-)
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Not trying to be negative
but statistics are only as good as the data collection. I imagine that the data points you need are not that easy to collect when one is emotionally involved in the game.
That's true
but I think it can be done consistently enough. Especially since he isn’t trying to record all of that during the game- relying on replays, instead.
As long as none of these data are ever multiplied by a “Bogus Call by the Ref Against the Cats!” factor, I’ll be willing to trust it fair enough… :-)
-- Tim
Lexington
I've gotten to the point where I can watch without getting (too) emotionally involved
Particularly if I’ve got something like this to focus on. A few years ago I wouldn’t have been able to stick with it through a full game and it’s quite possible that there will be games in the future that I’ll get too wrapped up in to finish – but even in that case I’ll probably be able to watch it on ESPN3 to get the parts I missed.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Interesting work, JL.
Liggins and Miller are no surprise at all based on my memory of the game – Knight, even. I’m still a bit unsure on the rating for Jones combined with the rating for Jorts, though that may simply be a poor memory of the game.
Thanks
Jones defended on a several missed shots which helps his cause. His low rating could also has something to with whomever he was guarding at the time.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Thats a good point.
Jorts numbers do show few missed FG when he was guarding and, according to Forty, he was on Muldrow – who was the only guy getting things done for SC on offense.
I am not even going to pretend I understand any of this but...
T. Jones did have 3 steals, 2 blocks, and 7 defensive rebounds. So I would say that helped his rating.
JLeverenz, you are a true Basketball Jones!!!
Thanks Scott
I agree that it’s a bit overwhelming to look at this stuff and try to make sense of it. I’m going to see if I can find some way to present some of it in a way that is more eye-friendly.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
purdy colors - check
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Very interesting post JL
For sure one thing that stats are not needed for is to gauge Liggin’s defensive performance. He is always outstanding. For the others it would be interesting to see how these stats played out over several games. My mind stats are telling me that Knight and TJ are number two and three while the rest fluctuate in ranking.
A man is nothing more than a summation of his scars!
One of the advantages Liggins uses
is that he “gets into the head” of the man he is guarding. I think that shows in the LSU player (or was it an Auburn player) who got upset when Liggins stripped the ball from his hands after the ref had called traveling on him. Another example was the SC guard throwing the ball at Liggins; I’m betting this action was not unprovoked.
Any way to develop a stat for this?
Thanks
A bit of work on the front end, but the actual collection process mainly takes concentration and a good tv screen.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Hey, I'm no Bobby Knight here!
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Is it possible...
That we can find a good center midseason? I really think that is are Achilles’ heel. I don’t know how college basketball is, but it would be nice!
http://www.JohnWallWear.com
Seems there needs to be some calculation for the differential between the opposing team’s offensive rebounding average on the season and the opposing team’s actual offensive rebounds for the game. This calculus would indicate something about the efficiency of the Cats’ defensive rebounding for the game. It might be too complex to assign a numerical value to individual players for this (a team numerical value would be simple), but I suppose it could be done by considering who they guard or the player-position number. For example. if Jorts plays the #5 spot, then the differential could be calculated (addition or subtraction) between the seasonal average of the opposing team’s offensive boards at the #5 spot and the actual offensive rebounds for the game by the opposing #5 spot.
by leedurhamstone on Jan 24, 2011 10:25 PM EST reply actions
One defensive stat I didn't notice
is ball denial. Defense on the ball is critical buy defense denying the ball to an important scorer for the other team is very important as well.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
Agreed
That stuck out to me as one major thing that is missing in this analysis. Just as a “shut down” corner in the NFL doesn’t have many picks because the QB never throws to the receiver he is covering, a truly great defender wouldn’t necessarily have many blocks, missed FG attempts, or steals to chart since his guy never got the ball in the first place (or had to pass it immediately because he couldn’t do anything with it). The only way I can think of to do this would be to compare number of touches to an average number of touches that player typically gets (per minute). But that would require an inordinate amount of additional data, so is probably not practical.
Regardless, I think this analysis is fantastic. One further question/comment: it might be interesting to transform the defensive efficiency ratings into a “score equivalent.” For example, if Liggins scores an 80.5, that means that if UK’s entire team were clones of Liggins, and Liggins’s man (men) were clones of that guy, UK would give up 80.5 points over the course of the game. Given that the ratings are all pretty high, I’m assuming that is not what they are currently saying. But it might be more intuitive if it were normalized as such.
Rec’d.
The defensive ratings use 100 possessions played
Mostly to make them look nice and because 100 is a nice round number. Basically, if you could have Liggins playing defense like he did against SC for 100 possessions, you would expect the offense to score 80.5 points on average.
For comparison, the UK/SC game had ~66 possessions.
You can think of it along the lines of how a pitcher’s ERA uses 9 innings, even if the pitcher doesn’t actually go that long.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Very true
But I think you would need more than one pair of eyes to get that. Also, I think ball denial can often be a subtle thing. Sometimes it’s pretty obvious that a team is trying to get the ball to a specific player, but without knowing the offensive game plan it might not always be clear when a pass to a player is part of the offense and when it is made because it’s the second or third option.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
more on ball denial
One way that ball denial might sneak into the ratings is with guys who play a lot of minutes but don’t have a lot of the defensive numbers that I do list. That might (and I stress the might) indicate that they are doing a good job of keeping the ball away from their man.
That would then be something to watch for specifically during games to see if it is in fact the case or if something else is going on.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
I think that's a good point kywineman.
Though it may be hard to quantify objectively.
One other stat of note that could be interesting would be offensive rebounds allowed – find out who does a good job of blocking out their man.
Guys and Gals
I’ve read through this all and am really impressed at the work involved. That said I couldn’t enjoy the game if I was thinking about all the ins and outs envolved in charting it. I have never been a stat guy and mainly because they are after the fact. The game is over and they may never happen again. Have fun and I’ll keep reading!
Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!
Perfectly okay
I wouldn’t have been able to watch games this way either a few years ago. In some ways there is an indirect Cal-effect here. I feel comfortable about the season-long prospects for these teams that I can concentrate on some small aspects such as defense during games.
Thanks for reading!
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
This is really awesome!
It is really neat to be able to see the stats that are swept under the rug. Glad to see someone thought up a way to better record defensive effort. Thanks for the post and keep up the good work.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
I am starting to believe...
That if this UK team keeps improving on defense and can hit their free throws, this team could win a NC. They are not one of the favorites and will not be at the end of the season. But after watching alot games this year, it seems to be somewhat wide open. Especially after watching ND beat PItt at Pitt. That was an impressive win. UK beat ND by 14 pts. Than you look at the way Fla. St. beat Duke, after getting beat by Auburn. UK beat Auburn by 24pts. It just shows that any team can beat any team on a given day. So it is possible.
Also, if Cal takes this team to the final four, shouldn’t he be in consideration for coach of the year? A team that only goes 6 deep, with 3 of them being freshman, making it to the final 4 is pretty impressive. Just something to think about.

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