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Izzo Still Pondering & Wooden Quotes

For the latest on Michigan State head coach Tom Izzo's deliberation concerning the Cleveland Cavaliers opening, ESPN has a rather comprehensive report ...

... and for a laundry list of somewhat clever John Wooden quotes ... now we know what Wooden was doing while Sam Gilbert was lavishing his players with all manner of extra benefits.

Oops.  Did I just write that?

Comment 200 comments  |  1 recs  | 

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ZZIINNGG

Great zinger Ken! One man’s “Lack of Institutional Control” is another man’s “Wizardry”

by cpacat on Jun 12, 2010 6:10 PM EDT reply actions   1 recs

This One slipped By Me

No news, no promotion, no comments on KY-IN HS All-Star game. Hoosiers comeback to defeat out-talented but not out-fought KY 100-97.

"There is a rank due to the United States, among nations, which will be withheld, if not absolutely lost, by the reputation of weakness." --George Washington

by Wild Weasel on Jun 12, 2010 8:49 PM EDT reply actions  

It's a minor miracle they lost by less than 30

Only 2,200 or so in attendance.

The girls also gave the Hoosiers a game, losing by 10 … once again, a minor miracle.

by Ken Howlett on Jun 12, 2010 9:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ken

Just want to give a shout out to the lady greyhounds softball team from Reidland High School. This is their third state tittle in recent years. This is my alma mater and will cease to exist when McCracken Central is built in 2012. Go Hounds!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 13, 2010 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

Saw that

Yes indeed, a hearty congratulations to the young ladies of Reidland!!

by Ken Howlett on Jun 13, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perfect quote for Calipari and UK

“I’d rather have a lot of talent and a little experience than a lot of experience and a little talent.”

by wingke6 on Jun 12, 2010 9:38 PM EDT reply actions  

They Call Me Coach (Book)

I’ll paraphrase but one of my favorite Wooden quotes is that No Coach Can Succeed Over The Long Run Without Acquiring Talent.

by FortyYearCatFan on Jun 13, 2010 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

What He Meant Was

He was the same coach (more or less) from 1949 to 1963 (15 years of limited success) that he was from 1964 to 1975.

The difference was that he had MUCH MORE TALENT in the latter dozen years.

by FortyYearCatFan on Jun 13, 2010 8:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Once again,

not meaning to be a smart aleck, but that is also obvious:) Just another peculiar thing about Wooden’s tenure at UCLA: He coaches there for 14-15 years with Pac 10 success, but little national acclaim, then suddenly, out of nowhere, he’s getting elite level players, and winning championships. Kind of makes a person go, hmmm …

by Ken Howlett on Jun 13, 2010 8:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Read His Book

What he said makes perfect sense.

TALENT determines the perception of coaching ability.

by FortyYearCatFan on Jun 14, 2010 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions  

The acquisition of talent,

therein lies the rub!

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Jun 13, 2010 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

kywineman

Alas! To be or not to be, that is the rub. LOL

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 13, 2010 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wooden was definitely a wizard.

You must know about coaching to win like that. But the most basic coach in the world could have won a couple of those NC’s with the talent he had. I don’t condemn the man for it. But I do understand why he had the players he had. And to be honest, I would have loved to have them as well. But Wooden was truly a great teacher about the game of life. And he was loved by his players just like every great motivator and coach is.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 13, 2010 3:55 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

wingke6

Horns on the same goat. LOL

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 13, 2010 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hoosiers Sweep KY Boys, But

IN All-Stars 81- KY 69. So much for A Kentucky Team From Kentucky.

KY girls avoid sweep 94-87.

"There is a rank due to the United States, among nations, which will be withheld, if not absolutely lost, by the reputation of weakness." --George Washington

by Wild Weasel on Jun 13, 2010 2:43 PM EDT reply actions  

Wild Weasel

Doth Creature have some kind of “cyber space” disease? Surely he recieveth an abundance
of criticism.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 13, 2010 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

That deserves a rec Ken

Well done

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 13, 2010 2:48 PM EDT reply actions  

John Wooden

A day or so after Wooden’s death,I was listening to Larry Glover Live on News Talk 590. I guess the day before he had brought up Wooden’s connection with Sam Gilbert and how UCLA was the biggest violator in college basketball yet the NCAA refused to look into any allegations. The night I was listening,Glover was lambasted by callers who couldn’t believe he would trample Wooden’s reputation the day after his death. I had always heard the rumors about how UCLA was dirty during their glory years but never heard of Gilbert. To me,Glover was just providing some information and telling both sides of the Wooden story as opposed to all the glory that was being heaped upon his memory by just about everybody else. And I found it ironic because of all the finger pointing that has been done at Coach Cal for things that first of all was none of his doing and secondly was in no comparison to what went on at UCLA under Wooden’s watch. Another example of the NCAA being unfair to some.

by maysvilleblue on Jun 13, 2010 2:59 PM EDT reply actions  

Even though I despise UCLA

and their “recipe” to get all those championships, I came to highly respect the person of Coach Wooden. His quotations are timeless and his execution of life impeccable.

by hoboat33 on Jun 13, 2010 4:13 PM EDT reply actions  

Ken, I'm surprised, especially of you who holds a sense of decency in his columns

Its good to see that even in a man’s death, we, the fans of the imfamous Emory Express package, and one that had to shut down for a year due to a gambling scandal, can find dirt.
But, hey, done in the name of ASOB and the Kentucky Wildcats, certainly makes it all right.

Blast my butt all you want but at the time of a man’s demise I would expect more of everyone.

I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.

by ParisGuy on Jun 13, 2010 9:12 PM EDT reply actions  

What irks me

is that UK and its fans paid for their sins, but UCLA and Wooden did not.

by Ken Howlett on Jun 13, 2010 9:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ken

Did you mark through part of you post?

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 13, 2010 10:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ken

This has always been a bone of contention with me, Ken. I was aware that something was
“Rotten In Denmark” way back in the’60s. Look at all of the blue chip players he signed.
Year in and year out. Wasn’t Kosher.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 1:29 AM EDT up reply actions  

'CatFan

True. But those other teams didn’t have 10 NCAA titles.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

ParisGuy

Oh look! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Naw, that’s just PG pooping on the earth again. LOL

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 1:07 AM EDT up reply actions  

Paris

Even death can’t escape the truth! In life the man was treated like a saint. The truth has always been out there. These facts are part of his life story just like all the wins.

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 13, 2010 9:35 PM EDT reply actions  

Don't be asking for cards when someone is ill if life and death mean so little as you have displayed

I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.

by ParisGuy on Jun 13, 2010 9:40 PM EDT reply actions  

Apples and orangesq

and if you disrespect me is such a manner again, I’ll banish you from this site forever.

by Ken Howlett on Jun 13, 2010 9:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

are you disprespecting Coach Wooden with this post?

I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.

by ParisGuy on Jun 13, 2010 10:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paris, you are being disrespectful, and I won't tolerate it.

The fact of Sam Gilbert’s acts and Wooden’s lack of response is documented. It is what it is.

Wooden was a great man in many ways, but just as flawed as the rest of us. He did not run a clean program at UCLA, and everyone who knows anything about him understands this. Many choose to look the other way because he did a great number of good things. He was a fine gentleman, a great coach, and a human being who puts his pants on just like Adolph Rupp and Eddie Sutton, and his flaws were similar to theirs.

Ken is not trying to draw a moral equivalence, but point out that the reality of Wooden is an abnegation of the myth. You do not have the right, nor the moral authority, to make this kind of comment to Ken. Do it again at your peril.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 13, 2010 10:16 PM EDT up reply actions  

Glenn, this is wrong.

No I don’t have the right to be a moral authority but I do have the right to post when I feel some one is being disrespectful to a man who just passed away.
I don’t care who you are, your title, or standing, there is time to be respectful to others, and bring up something that apparently wasn’t proven at the time of his death was wrong.
Don’t we hear all the time that nothing was proven against Calipari? And its hammered in to use almost daily.
Sorry, maybe I raised differently that you guys but this is not the time to go after Wooden.
I think I defended Gillispie when it seemed quite the way to go after his addiction. And I commented that alcoholism isn’t a subject to make light of..
Sports is sports. There is a hell a lot more to a person that whether he is respected by Kentucky fans or not.

I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.

by ParisGuy on Jun 13, 2010 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is where you are wrong

Ken wasn’t making fun of Wooden. If anything, he was making fun of the NCAA for doing nothing.

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 13, 2010 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

btcoop71

Absolutely.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 1:14 AM EDT up reply actions  

There is nothing disrespectful in the truth, Paris.

Nothing.

The truth is the truth. Death does not disguise it. It doesn’t hide it. And a person’s death is not an excuse to run away from the truth, or put it off limits.

It is not speaking ill of Wooden to point out the reality of his time was not perfect, not Camelot, not a fair representation of the truth.

Never, ever accuse someone of disrespect who utters the truth. That is wrong.

There is a double standard applied to Wooden. It is considered fair to represent Rupp as a racist, but unfair to represent Wooden as a man who allowed NCAA violations to occur in his program without taking action against it, and to reap the benefits of those violations. That Wooden’s players received unfair benefits that would have been NCAA violations is undisputed even by most Bruin fans.

Truth is truth. It cannot be bargained with, or reasoned with. It doesn’t feel pity, or remorse. It can be ignored, but it cannot be changed. Acknowledging a man’s flaws is not disrespect. Ignoring them in the name of respect for the dead is dishonest.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 13, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

truth /\

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 13, 2010 10:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

hmmmm....

I’m bookmarking this for future reference.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions  

Troll

It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.

by kentuckygirl0724 on Jun 14, 2010 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

as if we gave a damn........

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 1:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

She just can't stay away!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

We now have three pseudo-intelligent viewpoints being brought to the surface

almost daily. Although I hesitate to put Paris in Hoze and sddbaker’s ilk because Paris is just unhappy with the current state of affairs in UK Sports, whereas the other two are lost somewhere between envy, hatred, malcontentedness, and loathing for all things UK. On second thought calling those two pseudo-intelligent is a stretch.

note to self: start anti-uk hate site for profit………invite two particular individuals to blog for it.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Pseudo-intelligent? Really? That seems a little much to me.

And for the record, I find Hoze and his opinions to be just fine. Do I always agree with them? Well, no, of course not, and sometimes I do think that he could do a better job with the delivery as his sensitivity is a bit lacking (but, then again, what man’s isn’t?), but he does bring something to the table that wouldn’t otherwise be here.

Different personalities for different people, I suppose and what one person finds pseudo-intelligent, another person, that would be me, at least in Hoze’s case the majority of the time, finds refreshing and an addition to what would otherwise just be a bunch of UK homers only patting themselves on the back and talking about how fabulous their favorite team is. That would get a tad boring after a while, IMO.

Btw — This reply really wasn’t meant to put you on the spot, Hoze. I only commented the way I did because I’m fairly certain that you are a big boy and won’t go off crying in the corner or throw a fit about being offended by my remarks. Hopefully. : )

by BigSkyCat on Jun 14, 2010 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, I will defer to Tru and his comments as to the veracity of Hoze's claims concerning our coach, our program and our fans.

Seems to me here are a whole lot more here besides myself these BSC who find his “opinions” to be less than informed.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

+1,000

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 6:31 PM EDT up reply actions  

Whatever.

Call my opinions what you may wish, but you can’t fairly call them less than informed. Sure go ahead and disagree but I’ll stack my basketball knowledge, and yes, UK basketball knowledge up against most anyone.

Lastly, most sites are dominated numberwise by the silent few who don’t feel the need to reply to every post, nor whine about others and beg for them to be banned.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 7:41 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Well I am sucking my thumb...

….with great sensitivity, however. :)
Appreciate the comments.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 7:00 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Uh? Sorry?

I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings wineman. My apologies. I broke a cardinal rule and totally generalized, didn’t I?

So, so bad. Obviously, I didn’t mean you. No, never you. You are as sensitive as the day is long, I’m sure of it. ; )

by BigSkyCat on Jun 14, 2010 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

BSC

In your first paragraph, “(but, then again, what man’s isn’t?”)
Is that sort of, almost, close to being biased? LOL

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 10:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

Tru

No more definitive way of expressing it. Good response and “true.”

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 1:23 AM EDT up reply actions  

In the thread “The Big Blue Daily Mail — Farewell to Coach Wooden Edition”, when one poster commented that, contrary to numerous reports in the media that Wooden had an unequaled winning percentage, Rupp actually had a better record, you responded with:

Maybe…
… Not the best time to point this out, though.

Interesting isn’t it? There are clear facts that can be pointed out regarding coaching records, but on that day it wasn’t the best time to point it out.

Looks like you had the same sentiment a week ago that Paris has echoed in this thread. There is a question of respect. And it strikes me as very unseemly to choose to raise the specter of perceived improprieties immediately upon the demise of an individual.

The truth is the truth. Absolutely. But, there is a question of wisdom: just because something is true does not mean that it is proper or right to say it at any time.

I could give lots of interesting analogies. But, if you stop and ponder for a moment, I’m sure that you can see them yourself.

by jeffy on Jun 14, 2010 9:35 AM EDT up reply actions  

Response:

Looks like you had the same sentiment a week ago that Paris has echoed in this thread. There is a question of respect. And it strikes me as very unseemly to choose to raise the specter of perceived improprieties immediately upon the demise of an individual.

My sentiment was more along the lines that it looked like a gloat rather than pointing out an error, and I think gloating is not a good thing, particularly on the very day he passed.

I admit that I was not clear on that point, so your criticism is fair. So to clarify, I was objecting to the tone, not the facts.

When is it proper to say something that is an inconvenient truth? Maybe not the day of the sad occasion, but thereafter I think it is largely a matter of taste. Many others have had similar opinions much sooner, so I think Ken’s was as appropriate as any. Your mileage may vary, but that does not entitle one to excoriate someone else on such a subjective matter.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions  

Common decency allows for a time of bereavement for fans as well as family in the case of a lost life.

The day the man died is no time to bring up his shortcomings, on or off the court. The truth can be brought to light in a number of ways. In passing as a footnote, blazed across headlines as a representation of the sum total of a person or situation, or addressed in context with the rest of a lifetime of work, and the body of it thereof. Making the truth more or less than what it is in the fabric of one man’s 99+ years on this planet is not only the wrong thing to do, it undermines the basic fundamental truth that we hold dear as civilized people.

Once you allow for that, give proper respect and condolences to all parties involved, making an in-depth analysis of subject matter which has been thoroughly discussed here time and time again is not only prudent, it is expected. Paris made an ill-fated and ill-timed attempt at trying to posture on his view of what is right and what is wrong. He holds a place in his heart near and dear for those of a by-gone era. The Wooden’s, Knight’s, Rupp’s, etc. all have their place in history. But to cannonize someone here whose very existence as a legend proves the NCAA’s pathetic unwillingness to be “fair and balanced” to steal from a current day news outlet, is as Tru said, dishonest. I heard Wooden himself discuss the Gilbert situation on more than one occasion. He knew what had happened, if not during, then after the fact, and he does not dispute it himself.

Paris and I go back and forth on practically every subject for one reason only. He refuses to let go of the past, and his “jaded” view of today’s athletic situations. I too love what the past represents, but only in it’s contaxt with today and even tomorrow. The past teaches us the lessons we need to learn, if we will only choose to embrace that. Our problem in sports as well as many aspects of life is that we are not only enthralled by a romanticized view of the past, we are usually doomed to repeat it.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

jeffy

Coach Wooden was a man. Not a Greek god. For Pete’s sake.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions  

Not Greek

Nope he was a Roman God ;)

Now, what I don’t understand is what I wrote that could have been interpreted as me deifying John Wooden.

Seems to me that I was talking (with Tru) about something along a different track.

by jeffy on Jun 14, 2010 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions  

jeffy

Forget it. I don’t have the time or inclination to go into it any further.

As for you talking to Tru, that’s OK and I concede your right to do that.
However this is a public forum and I was under the impression that
any post is open to response.

If I’m wrong on this assumption then no one ought to comment on any posts’.

I made a comment and must have offended you. Please accept my apology in all sincerity.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 11:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

Paris Guy

There’s an old R&B song from the early forties. Goes something like this:

Yuh bettah straighten up an’ fly right,
Yuh bettah straighten up an’ fly right,
Yuh bettah straighten up an’ fly right,
Cool down papa doncha blow yo top.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 1:12 AM EDT up reply actions  

Did you see a smillie after my post?

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 13, 2010 10:01 PM EDT reply actions  

Thank You!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 13, 2010 10:06 PM EDT reply actions  

See above post!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 13, 2010 10:16 PM EDT reply actions  

oldcat70

“The skies are Wildcat blue again,
Happy days are here again.”

Great oldcat70

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 1:19 AM EDT up reply actions  

correct and that's my look at the situation.

I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.

by ParisGuy on Jun 13, 2010 10:29 PM EDT reply actions  

Was Wooden ever found guilty of a NCAA vioation?

That’s the standard, right?

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 12:57 AM EDT via mobile reply actions  

HozeKing

Wrong. Right is right. Wrong is wrong. Those blasted absolutes blocking the way again.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's a fair question.

Here’s the way I see it:

Many people have been credibly accused of NCAA violations with a preponderance of evidence supporting that accusation that the NCAA could either never prove to their satisfaction, or chose to ignore.

The Wooden years fall into the latter of those two situations. For likely economic reasons, the NCAA decided to look the other way when UCLA and Sam Gilbert tarnished Wooden’s record, and Wooden allowed it to happen. It is also said that Wooden was not a willing accomplice, and in general, I believe that. But Wooden could have stopped it at any time and chose not to do so.

So I guess the answer has to be, “No.” If a credible accuser and preponderance of the evidence exists that Calipari is a cheater, I think I would have to agree with that.

Can you supply either? Just asking.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 6:15 AM EDT up reply actions  

So now we are saying that commenting on a coach 'cleanliness' is NOT a matter of being found of NCCA violations or not?

Okay. I am good with that subjective determination. Now.

But let’s be consistent how we evaluate the ‘preponderance of the evidence’ and just don’t throw out the facts if it hasn’t met the ‘threshold’. And I’ll admittedly need some help on determining who a credible witness may be. I don’t know how that is done.

Call me critical, but it appears to me that you have admitted to lay down two sets of rules. Sorry for that.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 8:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

I think any such determination ...

… is largely a matter of opinion informed by facts.

Calipari’s critics have been free to suggest that his proximity to violations is all that is necessary. I have been constrained to point out that the NCAA explicitly exonerated him as a “victim” in the first affair, and declined to implicate him in the second.

Don’t we have to have some facts implicating a coach before we indict him? In Calipari’s case, there simply are none other than the fact he was coach.

In Wooden’s case, his own words indict him, as do the observations of others. It it cut and dried that he looked the other way beyond a reasonable doubt? Maybe not, but it is clear from his own comments he knew Gilbert was up to no good.

Put it this way — When Calipari saw Camby with bling and a new ride, he turned him in to the NCAA. When Wooden saw the very same thing, he “trusted” that it was okay.

I have not laid down two sets of rules. It may be unfair to Wooden that the NCAA didn’t investigate UCLA during his time there. They may have exonerated him of wrongdoing, and then I think things would be different.

But I doubt it very much.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions  

I myself would be curious as to the financial fortunes of those who investigated

UCLA back in those days. Assuming there were any investigators.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 10:41 AM EDT up reply actions  

I think Cal...

….and gosh knows who else, largely looked the other way with the Rose test situation and likely the Bledsoe GPA jump. But that’s just my matter of opinion informed by facts.

Seriously, I think that thought process is legit. I find it certainly more credible than automatically dismiss some concerns or facts just because the NCAA hasn’t found someone guilty. I am marking this day as a great moment of epiphany.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 1:48 PM EDT up reply actions  

No Offense Hoze, but your moments of "epiphany" dont get the rest of us as excited

UK did find reasons to be cautious about Bledsoe and did extra background checks, that has all been documented……not much of an “epiphany” if you ask me

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 1:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

You missed it.

The epiphany is a shared one….when we all realize that you can question a coach’s actions based on the facts other than the one where he has been found guilty by the NCAA or not.

It’s refreshing. Embrace it. Don’t run away from it. It’s a good thing.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

What I find is that when it serves your purpose, you can find delight in

anything you read, when it doesnt, you find it to be either intelectually beneath you, or compltetly off-point. One man’s “epiphany” is another man’s yawn, so to speak.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 2:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Glad to know I could help

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 3:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

Welcome.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

ALLBLUCAT

WOW! 20 lashes with a spaghetti cat of nine tails. +1

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

This is an intellectually vapid comment Hoze

You are taking an end result and assuming facts. Essentially taking the “head coach” and “violation” and assuming the stuff in the middle.

In Wooden’s case, there are on the record statements by Walton, Wooden, and others that admit to the relevant facts, including the violations themselves.

If someone were on the record showing that Cal had reason to suspect the testing and wilfully ignored it, you might have a comparable situation. As it is, you are just assuming the facts and calling it evidence.

The Bledsoe GPA jump was investigated at the time, as has already been pointed out. And frankly, it doesn’t look “unusual” to me at all. Assume an unguided student-athlete finally gets guidance on what he needs to do. He needs to be eligible to go to college. He is motivated. He re-takes classes which replace F’s or D’s with A’s or B’s (not uncommon – I saw several friends do that in college). That alone boosts a GPA a lot. And he takes what are probably very easy community college and on-line classes. If the class work was performed by Bledsoe, I see no reason to doubt this scenario. It isn’t hard to boost the GPA with easy classes and replacing low grades with retaken classes.

by JackBluto on Jun 14, 2010 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously.

How many times do we need to reguritate this?

You can have your opinion and I can have mine. See how I can disagree about your position without calling your opinion ‘intellectually vapid’ or something else insulting? I mean I could have called your thoughts ‘intellectually biased or naive’, but I didn’t.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Your "comment" - not you or your opinion - was the modified noun.

You still haven’t cited any evidnece. You haven’t shown any inconsistency in Tru’s position on Wooden v. Cal. If you want to say I am being naive for not assuming Cal knew and approved of all the shenanigans that resulted in the 2 FF being vacated, fine. But don’t comment as though there is evidence supporting your opinion which I chose to ignore. There isn’t. Your criticism is I don’t assume he’s a cheater given he had final fours vacated. You are right. Your opinion however still lacks factual support – all it has is assumptions.

You said you may need help determining who a credible witness is — well who is your witness against Cal? No one. You imply there is someone in your comment that BBN is just discrediting. It isn’t so. There is no witness that says Cal knew and approved of the Camby payouts, or knew and approved of Rose cheating, or knew and approved of any other alleged violation. But you imply there is.

Tru’s standard is easily applied to Cal and UCLA/Wooden. Even without relying on the NCAA, there is no witness or evidence that Cal knew of or condoned or ignored cheating by Camby, Rose or anyone else.

One witness in support of the Gilbert mess is Walton. Is he a disgruntled former player that is mad at Wooden? NO – he praised Wooden his entire life. I truely believe he loved Wooden like a father. Yet it is Walton that has provided some of the clearest statements that admit to the financial payouts and cheating. Wooden himself has made admissions that suggest he knew something was amiss, even if he didn’t know the whole story. So while we can’t say Wooden knew, there is some evidence to support a conclusion of wilfull blindness or naivity, and there is definitely evidnece that the program itself received the benefits of Gilbert’s cheating.

One standard. Easy to apply rules.

I admit to being “biased” as a fan, but I have stood alone at times criticizing Cuz’s early season and Bledsoe’s all season on court conduct, and Billy G’s conduct when he was still coach. I think I’ve earned some objectivity points at least.

by JackBluto on Jun 14, 2010 2:42 PM EDT up reply actions  

How would there be any credible witnesses is Cal 'looked the other way'?

That’s the beauty of it. I’m confident you’ve heard about this tactic. I won’t spell it out for you. See my opinion recognizes that Cal is smarter than he may appear. Call it a compliment, if you’d like.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

backhanded compliments like that are not only unneeded,

they are unwelcome…..

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Easy.

You can’t have a conspiracy with just one person. What usually must happen in those cases is a co-conspirator must come clean.

You see, if Calipari looked the other way, others on his staff would have to know, and his staff has a turnover just like any other.

The problem is, there are no facts to show that Calipari could have looked the other way. He clearly didn’t look the other way at UMass — that is a documented fact. So that leaves Memphis.

What you are alleging is that Calipari knew about the test fraud, and just let it happen. But what you haven’t done is demonstrated how that is even possible. Why would Rose, who would have had to arrange a stand-in, tell Calipari what he did? Would you?

Given the quite reasonable assumption that Rose did not tell him, how was he supposed to know? Who told him, and why?

These are questions that remain unanswered and logically unanswerable. The possibilities are as follows:

  1. Rose told Calipari about his fraud and Cal ignored it;
  2. A co-conspirator told Cal and Cal ignored it;
  3. Rose or a co-conspirator told a third party who told Cal and he ignored it;
  4. Calipari did not know.

Which of the possibilities makes the most sense, especially considering Calipari’s actions in the UMass case (he turned in Camby) and applying the principle of parsimony?

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

First I have never brought up UMass as a case in point.

I think your conclusion is rational in total, but that doesn’t dismiss my conclusion as irrational. Here’s another possibility:

5. Cal strongly suspected the Rose/Bledsoe issues, but chose to ignore it. He didn’t want the risk of knowing the truth.

Like my father once told me when I asked him why he or my mother never put me in a situation where I felt the need to lie as a late teenager? He told me that he told my mother, ‘Never ask a question where you don’t want to hear the answer’.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 3:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

What issues?

Bledsoe had a grade jump that is not that uncommon. It was investigated, first by UK and then by the NCAA. Twice. Happy ending for everyone.

With Rose, what issue was he supposed to be aware of? That he was a poor student? That he took several tries to pass the standardized test?

Look, players get admitted to every university under the sun under those conditions, including places like Duke and North Carolina.

So I ask again — what specific issue that should have caused Calipari to stop recruiting these kids did he ignore? Please be specific. Explain in detail, so that we can be sure we are talking apples and apples here. Convince me.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 3:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

I can't convince you.

I can’t convince creationists about evolution. I can’t convince agnostics that there is a supreme being. Heck, I couldn’t convince many of my friends not to vote for that one guy from Chicago. The facts are all there, but they won’t change their mind. Doesn’t make them necessarily wrong nor intellectually vapid.

Go ahead and believe what you want. I’ll continue to give Cal more credit than most, and wish for better.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 5:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

HozeKing

Man are you watching too many “Tales From The Crypt” again?

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

Surely by now...

you know that’s just the way it goes here. Your comments, if disagreed with, are “intellectually vapid”, because here at ASOB people welcome a variety of ideas, and if he said “that’s stupid” it might sound like he’s not welcoming your divergent viewpoint. Just like mine are “bullshit”, and I’m obviously illiterate. It’s really quite fascinating. Please know that your generally intelligent and pertinent comments are not wasted.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 3:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

We dont find you to be illiterate......we find you to be wrong.

And the two of you ought to get together on any site other than this one and discuss going bowling since you have so much in common…..call it “A SEA OF GREEN”

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions  

Ah yes...

the old “envy” card is played. Does it really make sense to say I’m envious of Kentucky fans? Couldn’t I just decide to be one myself if it seemed so wonderful to me? It’s not like your team preference is assigned to you like the color of your eyes or even forced on you by where you live. I’m not required to be a UT fan or an Atlanta Braves fan — I choose to be. It’s a preference, so it’s just silly to suggest that I am envious.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

So why are you not on their blogs???

And being a Kentucky fan is a gift from God…..and we treat it as such……

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 6:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

Divergent viewpoints ...

… are welcome as long as they make sense. You are arguing that any viewpoint, regardless of its intellectual validity, aught to be treated as though it were rational.

That suggestion, in se, is not rational. A “divergent viewpoint” must have the fairly important quality of defensibility. JackBluto just demonstrated why Hoze Kings argument must fail the test of reason.

I have not seen anyone question your literacy. Only your flawed reasoning and cheap shots.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

No, I'm not arguing that any viewpoint..

ought to be treated as rational. I’m arguing that any viewpoint (if presented in a respectful and straightforward matter, as Hoze presented his) ought not to be treated rudely. As Hoze said, it’s entirely possible to say “I disagree with your comment” without attempting to insult him by saying his comment is “intellectually vapid”. That’s an opinion, which may or may not make sense, or have intellectual validity, or be rational, or pass the test of reason, or be a cheap shot, or bullshit, or be flawed reasoning. Just my opinion, which I’m sure many will be quick to point out, is worth what you paid me for it.

Oh, and this:

Can you read?

seems to be the perfect example of questioning my literacy.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 4:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

yeah, that opening salvo of yours today was really respectful and straightforward....

to quote my favorite wide receiver, “child please”……..

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 5:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe I was speaking about Hoze's comment....

but maybe you didn’t pick up on that. Or maybe you realize I made a valid point, so you must try to change the subject.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

spare me the self-apreciating comments.....you know for a fact you get spanked every time you

show up around here……one would think you got the point by now, but evidently that point was lost on you…..

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

I get what????

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 5:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

spanked, posterized, sent packing, whipped like a red-headed step-child,

given a ticket on the fail-boat, sent home with your tail between your legs, any of those help?

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Nope...

since it does not apply.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

heh......says you.....lol

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 6:36 PM EDT up reply actions  

LOL...

says it all.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 6:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

in this case, it sure does......

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

It's not rude ...

… to say a comment is intellectually vapid, and then explain why. Rudeness is saying it’s intellectually vapid and that’s all.

Look, people’s opinions are not sacrosanct. They sometimes are intellectually vapid or just downright nonsense, and it’s okay to say that as long as you explain yourself. I don’t object to being called a hypocrite or making a flawed argument if someone can demonstrate why. Hoze caught me a few days back making an argument using the fallacy known as “appeal to common practice.” I essentially said one person’s actions were acceptable because everyone did it.

He called me on it and I thanked him for correcting me.

Here is the thing — we cannot be too hasty to take offense to a critical comment when the criticism is carefully explained. That is the form, at least, of constructive criticism.

Jack Bluto’s criticism of Hoze’s comment was completely correct and accurate. Hoze is, and always has, taken two facts and assumed the middle. That’s not an intellectually sound opinion, it is in fact the post hoc logical fallacy — A occurs before B, therefore A causes B. This is the same form as the questionable cause fallacy.

One could make the statement: Calipari has been associated with two programs who have been sanctioned by the NCAA. That is a fact.

One cannot assume, using logic, that Calipari was the cause of those sanctions. The questionable cause fallacy assumes that — since A and B are often associated, A is the cause of B. One could hold that opinion, but the foundation of that opinion is sand, and thus the description, “intellectually vapid.”

So in this case, a logical fallacy makes his conclusion invalid. And opinions with glaring logical problems and no foundation are little more than libelous utterances when they amount to allegations of wrongdoing.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 6:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

That is not rude???

Wow….you must hold unbelievably mean parties at your house. I mean isn’t that how we are supposed to behave? It’s like a house party, right?

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 7:07 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

Of course it's rude.

Logical, but still rude.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 7:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

No problem with his manners...

just his definition of the word “rude”.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

A really smart man once told me that how correct you are in defining something

was directly dependent on what part of the country you were standing in when you tried to define it. I think the same thing goes for blogs.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 9:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

It takes a special comment to be declared "vapid" by me.
Cal … and gosh knows who else, largely looked the other way with the Rose test situation and likely the Bledsoe GPA jump. But that’s just my matter of opinion informed by facts.


That lovely comment, followed by no facts. None. Not even when invited by Tru to provide such facts. There is nothing upon which to make an inference. Only an assumption he “must have known.” Why? Because he was living in the same time zone at Rose.

Seriously. A viewpoint is fine. A conclusion based on nothing is also fine – just don’t pretend that you have a factual basis for it when you don’t. Give us something other than “cause I said so.”

by JackBluto on Jun 15, 2010 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions  

Your opinion is not informed by facts ...

… but by speculation. You should know the difference.

But that would be inconvenient, I guess.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 3:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

ALLBLUCAT

Come on! That’s really far out.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Perhaps the only difference

between John Wooden and Eddie Sutton is no envelopes fell open under Wooden’s watch.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Jun 14, 2010 9:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yeah, that's the standard...

…except when it’s not.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions  

Should the conditions of posting here become too much of a burden to your sensibilities,

feel free to post elsewhere. We wouldnt want to you compromise any of your morals or ethics by hanging out around here in the Big Blue.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions  

That's her "thing" ABC.

Swear off ever coming back again, then show up and make random negative sniping comments, then go back to RTT and cry about how mean everyone is to her over here.

Rinse and repeat.

It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.

by kentuckygirl0724 on Jun 14, 2010 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

She's like a jilted lover or something

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

or a bad penny

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 7:12 PM EDT up reply actions  

Enlighten us, then.

What should the standard be?

Apparently, you have an opinion on the matter. Don’t come in and be a smarty-pants.

Hold forth, and dazzle us with brilliance. Or baffle us with bullshit. But say something other than a one-line snark.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions   1 recs

This gets a rec
Or baffle us with bullshit.

Well played sir, you have made my coworkers look oddly at me for laughing so loud.

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 12:56 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, seems pretty simple....

but, then, I’m not a philosopher or anything like that.

A double standard seems to be in effect here. If anyone expresses the opinion that Calipari is a cheater, they are accused of slander and/or libel because he’s never been found guilty of cheating, so there is no “proof”. If someone accuses Wooden of being a cheater (even as thousands are mourning his death, no less), despite the fact that he’s never been found guilty of cheating, that person is merely boldly proclaiming the truth, and any detractors should be threatened with being banned.

Is this no longer in effect? :


I want you …
… to provide evidence of cheating before you make accusations.
We don’t libel other coaches here, and I insist that you either show the same courtesy, or provide proof. In fact, I demand it.
A Sea of Blue — Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on May 29, 2010 10:14 PM CDT up reply actions

Perhaps his death removes him from this limitation? Sort of the opposite of the old adage about not speaking ill of the dead, maybe? Instead, it’s now open season.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 2:19 PM EDT up reply actions  

Can you read?

Note that a finding of guilt by the NCAA is not the standard you quoted above. The standard was “… provide evidence of cheating before you make accusation.”

What is your evidence of cheating for Cal? Nothing. Your evidnece is a finding of a violation by the NCAA (which clears him) and he was coach. That isn’t evidence. That is assumption at best.

Now, with UCLA under Wooden, there is “evidence of cheating” with the program (see statements on the record by Walton, Wooden, etc.). Wooden’s own statements are also part of the record.

Thus, the standard applied is consistent here.

Try again.

by JackBluto on Jun 14, 2010 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

I realized of course...

that no matter what I said, it would be deemed incorrect here. I was asked to respond, and I did. In your opinion, I need to “try again”. In my opinion, that is not necessary.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions  

Seriously dude (or dudette)

Apples and Oranges. Sam Gilbert was well known at the time, and it was also well known that, at the time, the NCAA was affraid to bring down UCLA.

I’d suggest reading this, it is a very good read. I mean, Bill Walton admitted he was on the take and the NCAA did nothing.

Wooden was a great man, no doubt. But just like you can’t hear about Adolph Rupp without people talking about point shaving or that he was the biggest racist ever (rolls eyes), you can’t talk about Wooden without talking about Sam Gilbert.

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

And yes, you can't talk about Cal without talking about UMASS and Rose

That is just how it is. Right or wrong.

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

Gotta give you props for that...

because that’s exactly what my first thought was. I’m not saying Wooden was a saint and I agree he may have cheated. I’m saying it’s ridiculous to be accused of “libeling” Calipari if I say he may have cheated, that’s all.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions  

You can talk about it, sure

Just know you need to back it up

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well, to be consistent...

those who accuse Wooden of cheating should be able to back it up with hard evidence, not heresay …. if you don’t want to have a double standard.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

So Bill Walton's admission isn't good enough?

Just asking……

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions  

Here is another good article

http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1153

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

And Walton isn't the only one who has gone on record either

John Wooden upon being asked about Sam Gilbert:

“Maybe I had tunnel vision,” Wooden once said.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions  

No.

If Derrick Rose wrote a book and said Calipari helped him cheat on his test, would it be okay to call him a cheater?

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 4:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Derrick Rose did that, then could back that statement up, or it could be corroborated by another person, then yes.

So you now question the veracity of Bill Walton??? Walton tells the truth even when it is painful to all around him……including himself

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions  

Fine...

as long as you’re consistent, I have no problem.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 6:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Yes

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 14, 2010 10:20 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who in here has accused Wooden of cheating?

I have not. Wooden looked the other way, and there is evidence to support that conclusion.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Few have accused Wooden of cheating.

UCLA benefited from the cheating, as did Wooden as it gave him the talent he used to win.

In this scenario, Hoze would say that because he expects a lot of Wooden, he would assume that he knew or intentionally looked the other way.

by JackBluto on Jun 15, 2010 11:51 AM EDT up reply actions  

The two things are entirely different.

Accusing anyone of cheating requires evidence, not just opinion. There is evidence that Wooden knew and did nothing.

The only evidence in Calipari’s record is that when he discovered cheating, he reported it.

How are these two things similar?

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 3:52 PM EDT up reply actions  

Who accused Wooden of anything?

The only comments that were made were that there was evidence of Sam Gilbert and players “cheating” if that is how you want to label it at UCLA in the late 60’s and 70’s. The charges were documented time and time again. Wooden himself admitted to things going on that he was not aware of, and to quote him “maybe should have been aware of”. No one is claiming that Wooden broke any rules personally. Looking the other way is a different story. Being the recipient of multiple NCAA championships with players who may or may not have been eligible under the light of investigation is a different story. This “discussion” is in no way intending to demean the man, simply to put things in perspective. No one on here has been demeaning. Ken made a lighthearted reference to something that someone else said and you and your highly refined morality took offense. Sorry. Maybe staying closer to home will be more palatable to you in the future.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 2:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

I like this one better:
I’m not welcome no matter what. So I will well and truly stay away. So long…..

“It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone.” A. Bartlett Giamatti
by sddbaker on Apr 6, 2010 6:03 PM EDT up reply actions

It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.

by kentuckygirl0724 on Jun 14, 2010 3:44 PM EDT up reply actions  

ahhhh.....but for the broken promises of youthful exuberance......

there would be no regrets for tomorrow.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

You know...

you missed me…..

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions  

...like a hole in the head.

It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.

by kentuckygirl0724 on Jun 14, 2010 6:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

Response:
A double standard seems to be in effect here. If anyone expresses the opinion that Calipari is a cheater, they are accused of slander and/or libel because he’s never been found guilty of cheating, so there is no "proof".

Look, there is overwhelming evidence that UCLA was providing illegal benefits during Wooden’s tenure. Overwhelming to the point that even Bill Walton, who loved Wooden like a father, admitted as much. It is not rationally disputable. What is rationally disputable is that Wooden was complicit. That part has never been proven, but there is a lot of evidence, including words out of his own mouth, that suggest he was, at least to the extent of looking the other way.

Is there anything comparable in Calipari’s case? No! Nothing even close. The NCAA exonerated Calipari in the UMass case, and found no evidence at all that he had any knowledge of Rose’s alleged cheating at Memphis.

Perhaps if the NCAA had investigated UCLA, they would have exonerated Wooden as well. Who knows? But it seems very unlikely, given that Wooden has admitted being uncomfortable about Gilbert and warning his players to stay clear, even as they were driving new cars around campus in fancy clothes.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

Overwhelming evidence does not equal proof. You even say that it is rationally disputable that Wooden was complicit. All I’m saying is that if you insist that no one even suggest that Calipari might be a cheater or may know about irregularities going on around him without proof, then it is inconsistent to not insist on the same standard for other coaches.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 4:29 PM EDT up reply actions  

What is proof, then?

Seriously.

We put people to death by a standard of reasonable doubt. Not all doubt, reasonable doubt.

So what does it take to prove something to you? If you have multiple witnesses and an independent third party investigation, including the NCAA investigation that uncovered 15 years of violations, what more proof do you need? What standard are you applying? Do you need stone tablets engraved by the finger of God?

I don’t demand proof, but I do demand demand evidence of wrongdoing. In the UCLA case, there is overwhelming evidence of wrongdoing and evidence, albeit not overwhelming, that Wooden was aware of it.

In Calipari’s case, there is no evidence whatever that he was aware of any violations, even after an NCAA investigation.

Don’t you think that’s important? One of these things is not like the other.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 6:23 PM EDT up reply actions  

I disagree.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 6:25 PM EDT up reply actions  

Based on what?

You can’t just “disagree.” You have to support that disagreement.

Otherwise, it’s simply faith in something you can’t prove and have no evidence of.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 6:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

So...

as I asked somewhere else, if I had a statement from Derrick Rose that Calipari knew that he was letting someone else take his test for him, would that be sufficient “evidence of wrongdoing”?…. because that would be consistent with saying that there is evidence that Wooden knew what was going on, based on Bill Walton’s statements.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 6:37 PM EDT up reply actions  

If Derrick Rose made such an accusation ...

… I would take it very seriously, no question about it. It would be strong evidence of wrongdoing, and Calipari would have a lot of explaining to do. Probably more than he is capable of.

But this question does not resolve “I disagree.” Rose has made no such statement. So I ask again — on what basis do you disagree?

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 6:49 PM EDT up reply actions  

she aint got one.......;-)

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 6:59 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just that ...

…the two things were not alike, at least in some ways. Sorry I didn’t finish the thought. I really understand your point, I suppose I just don’t agree that there is enough difference between the two cases for there to be a difference in how they are treated…thus my belief that it is a double standard. Again, my opinion.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 7:01 PM EDT up reply actions  

Lady!

The first story on your belovedRTT is about Wooden and his CHEATING! You might visit there some time!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 7:09 PM EDT up reply actions  

oh they have no problem with pointing it out over there, she just seems to be living on some

Tennessee version of Fantasy Island where Coach Wooden’s right hand man is a “little person” holding an orange and white pom pom. The way she is going on you would think we insulted Phil Fulmer or Johnny Majors!

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 7:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

ABC

I don’t know this Fulmer and Majors. Have we insulted them?

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 7:22 PM EDT up reply actions  

Icons in the world of Rocky Top......

no where else mind you….but there they are beloved.

I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 14, 2010 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions  

I believe...

the “story” on RTT that you seem to be referring to is actually a link to a SBNation.com article, not anything written by anyone who is a member there. However, if every poster on RTT was calling Wooden a crooked, cheating SOB, there would be no hypocrisy involved, because over there there is no one insisting there that our own coach cannot be so labeled as well.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 7:34 PM EDT up reply actions  

As far

as your coaches-sometimes the truth hurts!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 11:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

Well ...

… let’s be fair.

Her objection is with a perception of two separate standards in the treatment of Wooden and Calipari.

Don’t obfuscate the issue by throwing up a strawman. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 8:13 PM EDT up reply actions  

actions

Yo guy. Why couldn’t you just have said confuse
instead of “obfuscate.” Same amount of wind.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 11:35 PM EDT up reply actions  

I think I've made it pretty clear...

that the issue is not whether he “cheated” or not. I really don’t care one way or the other. The point being debated is whether or not it’s hypocritical to call Wooden a cheater but insist that no such aspersions be thrown at Calipari. You might want to read the entire thread before getting so agitated.

"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti

by sddbaker on Jun 14, 2010 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions  

The problem is ...

… the difference is substantial, and clear. One has evidence, even significant evidence.

The other has none.

Seriously, this is not that difficult. I know you may not want to admit it. I believe you have tried and convicted Calipari with zero evidence to support the allegation, which is what I have objected to here many times.

Bottom line, whether or not you perceive a double standard, there indisputably isn’t one. No fact, extrapolation of fact or reasonable theory can create one.

It seems to me that you have made up your mind to accuse me of a double standard whether or not it exists.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 8:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

sddbaker

Fellow, if you were a prosecutor in a court of law, the judge would put on trial. LOL

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 11:24 PM EDT up reply actions  

blue

it is a woman!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 11:27 PM EDT up reply actions  

oldcat70

OK. Woman if you were a prosecutor in a court of law, the judge would put you on trial. LOL

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 11:38 PM EDT up reply actions  

Just so ...

… nobody forgets.

Strange, isn’t it? We sports writers are quick to call out the cheaters and alleged cheaters, from Jim Calhoun to John Calipari to Barry Bonds and Bill Belichick — Belicheat, we labeled him — but when it came time to size up John Wooden’s basketball dynasty at UCLA, most of us surrendered to the myth.

The country’s most-decorated sports columnists, upon Wooden’s death June 4, copied the NCAA’s move from some four decades earlier and ignored a terribly inconvenient truth: UCLA cheated.

Even UCLA fans understand this and accept it, by and large. That doesn’t mean that John Wooden was not a great man and a great basketball coach. He was unquestionably both. But he was imperfect, and remembering only the great parts is as unfair to him as it is to Adolph Rupp. It creates a myth that dishonors both his memory and those who, for whatever reason, have chosen to ignore reality in order to avoid tarnishing the pedestal they place him on.

No Kentucky fan would argue that Rupp was worthy of sainthood. Neither should any college basketball fan portray Wooden that way.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Jun 14, 2010 6:24 AM EDT reply actions  

To all of us.

Including myself. Let’s face it; objectivity is not one of the better human traits. I find myself agreeing with part or all of the subject matter about Coach Wooden.

But let’s be honest. The only gods who exist among mankind are those we create in our
own minds. This is not intended to crticize or offend anyone. It is a basic truth though as proven by history.

Big Dan Issel......The Best there is.

by alwaysblue on Jun 14, 2010 10:51 AM EDT reply actions  

Wow.....stay away a few days and look at all the fun you can miss!!

Don’t think after reading every word of this post that Ken meant to imply that Wooden cheated. I think he’s very much like me and many knowledgeable sports fans who see the famous “media bias” being applied heavily to Coach Wooden.

Maybe UK fans are a little sensitive about this because we have a Hall of Fame Coach who the media tries to portray as a racist and our program as the face of NCAA cheating. Seeing Wooden protrayed as a saint with no flaws and UCLA as the angelic example of all that’s good with NCAA basketball can be a little tough to swollow sometimes especially with all the info out there regarding Sam Gilbert and his ties to UCLA.

Coach Wooden was obviously a good man and no one one here will dispute that but……….not a saint anymore than anyone else is.

Btw……for our UT friend………letting Ernie intentionally take freethrows for Bernie WAS CHEATING!!!!!

You can't fix "stupid"!

by UKlvrJM on Jun 14, 2010 4:38 PM EDT reply actions  

O lord

Another futboler!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions  

I love a sport

where you watch for 80 minutes and maybe get to yell that once.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Jun 14, 2010 10:57 PM EDT up reply actions  

Wineman

I Guess we may be in the minority. I don’t like any sport that can end in a tie!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 11:05 PM EDT up reply actions  

I guess you hate the NFL then. Or thoroughbred racing.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 11:11 PM EDT up reply actions  

Get it right. It's 90 minutes.

See? In order to critic something properly, you need to know what you are talking about.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 14, 2010 11:10 PM EDT up reply actions  

I was referring to the Slovenian game

the other night where I believe the goal was scored 80 minutes in. In order to properly criticize me you might want to know what I’m talking about before making assumptions.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Jun 14, 2010 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions  

Oh yea.

Like those 8 1/3 inning baseball games. Silly me.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 15, 2010 6:57 AM EDT up reply actions  

If you enjoy

watching people run back and forth almost scoring for the first 80 minutes of a 90 minute game, fine. Not my cup of tea. I say enlarge the goal and let them use hands like volleyball.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Jun 15, 2010 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions  

Good idea.

We can also lower the goal and widen the hoop in basketball. Let’s make football fields 60 yds long. Let’s shorten the baseball paths to 50 feet. Gosh, the possibilites are endless.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 15, 2010 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions  

Watching soccer,

in its current form, is almost as exciting as watching paint dry.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Jun 15, 2010 10:54 PM EDT up reply actions  

Hoze

I hate the NFL! And don’t remember a horse race being tied!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 11:15 PM EDT up reply actions  

You broke you own rule

About criticizing without knowing what your talking about!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 14, 2010 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions  

Read it. View it. Learn it. I'll take an apology now. Thank you.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 15, 2010 6:55 AM EDT up reply actions  

Big Red X?

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...

by btcoop71 on Jun 15, 2010 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions  

Try this then.

http://www.sports-photos.com/catalog/images/TripleDeadHeatBW.tif.jpg

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 15, 2010 9:08 AM EDT up reply actions  

Technically correct.

Comparing the very rare tied horse race to the constantly, commonly, excrutiatingly boringly tied world cup match is a stretch though. But technically correct – a horse race can end in a tie.

by JackBluto on Jun 15, 2010 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions  

Good for you.

Consider yourself part of the worldly minority. Congratulations.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jun 16, 2010 9:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions  

"Worldly Minority"

Man you are full of yourself!

Happy Days are here again! Wildcat's have #1 recruiting class again!

by oldcat73 on Jun 16, 2010 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions  

I knew what you meant - though not with reference to the exact game.

My position is that nearly every goal in world cup play is either a penalty kick or a corner kick. The Slovenia goal is but one example.

It would be like watching a basketball game where every point was a free throw or an out of bounds play.

Soccer is a great sport for people who like to watch cross country running with an occassional kick to the shin. I will give soccer this – the players have perfected the penalty drawing flop even better than a Duke point guard.

by JackBluto on Jun 15, 2010 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions  

As a former UK cross country runner,

I can tell you that it is overrated as a spectator sport.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Jun 15, 2010 10:58 PM EDT up reply actions  

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