Is an NBA championship more desirable than an NCAA basketball title?
by Truzenzuzex on May 15, 2010 1:17 PM EDT
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78 comments
I have seen several people comment that John Calipari's tweet that he will be at Kentucky next year, now supplemented by this Lexy audio where you can hear him say it in his own words, with his own voice, is essentially a deception. That's what you mean when you say you don't believe a person when they make an unequivocal statement like Calipari did.
Of course, the Big Blue Nation is now used to this, and instead of jumping into the breach and defending the Kentucky coach from his detractors again, I am going to ask this question -- is winning an NBA championship more impressive than winning an NCAA national championship? Is it a more worthy life goal for a coach?
The answer, I suspect, is largely dependent upon where the person answering the question's fanhood lies. NBA fans who are only casual fans of college basketball would surely answer in the affirmative. College basketball fans who think the NBA game is less worthy would likely think the negative. There is really no right or wrong answer, I suppose, but the reason it is worthy of discussion is that you would think it would figure into any decision Calipari might have to make, depending on what the ultimate outcome of the Summer of Lebron is.
The NBA championship has officially been around since 1947, three years as the Basketball Association of America and the rest as the NBA. During the nearly 63 years of the NBA championship series, there have been a total of 17 different teams winning the title. Currently, there are 30 NBA franchises, and of those 30, only 12 of the currently active franchises have won championships under their original names (although six winners have changed cities). Four of the franchises have been renamed, and one championship winner no longer exists (the Baltimore Bullets).
There have been five NBA coaches who have won four titles or more -- Phil Jackson (10), Red Auerbach (9), Pat Riley (5), Ray Kundla (5), and Greg Popovich (4). Of these, I would venture that only Jackson, Auerbach and Riley are actually household names. Popovich is certainly known to anyone who has watched the NBA in recent times, but hardly leaps to the tongue. Ray Kundla, who lead the Lakers (then in Minneapolis) to 5 titles, is the answer to a trivia question. NBA coaches who have won four titles or less are known only to fans of the league and the fans of their respective programs.
College basketball has been around much, much longer than the NBA -- almost twice as long. The NCAA Championship has only been around since 1939, but even so, that's 12 years longer than the NBA Championship. During the history of the tournament, 35 teams out of the now 347 division I colleges fielding teams (note: this has changed substantially over the yeas) have claimed championships.
Household name coaches in NCAA basketball for their work done on the floor include John Wooden, Adolph Rupp, Dean Smith, Mike Krzyzewski and Bobby Knight (although Knight is at least as well known for his antics as his victories). Fans of the college sport, and even casual fans from other sports would also recognize names like Bill Self, Jim Calhoun, Jim Boeheim, Lute Olson, Rick Pitino and John Calipari.
What the NBA has going for it are larger team fan bases, more player name recognition, more marketing and apparel tie-ins and even more media exposure as an institution than the NCAA championship. I can't say for sure, but I would guess that there are substantially more casual NBA fans worldwide than of college basketball. The NBA also unquestionably has the best players, since only the cream of the college crop ever make it in the Association.
What the NCAA has going for it are arguably more passionate and dedicated fans. Fans of college basketball tend to be less "fair weather" and more likely to follow the team even in down years. The NCAA tournament is also unquestionably more difficult for a given team to win, even considering only the historically best teams. This is due largely to the single-elimination design of the NCAA tournament versus the series format of the NBA.
The NBA and NCAA also present distinctly different challenges to coaches. The NBA season is much longer requiring many long trips to faraway cities. Coaching in the NBA is more an exercise in business management than actual coaching, since the players are often employed more like financial assets in a Monopoly game. The NBA requires a coach to manage personalities more than anything else, as he is coaching mostly full-grown men making six and seven figure salaries per year. There are no NCAA violations to worry about, no grades to manage, and virtually no job security whatever. There is very little actual teaching of basketball done in the pros -- mostly just skills refinement for which the players are primarily responsible.
The NBA coach has a much shorter season with many fewer games and less time on the road. He has to teach his charges everything from fundamentals to the speed of the game. The coach must manage his players in every detail from grades to rules compliance to media appearances to matters of discipline. He must constantly recruit replacements due to a high turnover in addition to his coaching duties, and the most time he can ever get out of a player is four years. Job security is better than the NCAA, but far from tenure. His public relations responsibilities in jobs like Kentucky and North Carolina are substantial. Overall, even though he is gone from his home town less, he is arguably away from the house even more.
In the end, I see no practical difference between the value of winning an NBA or NCAA championship as a coach. I would, in fact, be inclined to argue that the NCAA coach is more meritorious in terms of pure basketball coaching, but others may rationally disagree. Overall, though, I have a hard time with the default idea that an opportunity to coach LeBron James to an NBA title is so tempting that no college coach could turn down the opportunity. I find such opinions entirely suspect to say the least, even though I can't reasonably reject them completely.
I still insist that no matter what LeBron does, absent kidnapping or blackmail, will convince Calipari to leave this year. Your mileage may vary on this view.
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Interesting
I noticed all the coaches you listed, I believe have won a national championship. With one exception.
Are we to understand that individual should be counted in those victors when coaches like Bob Huggins and others wouldn’t gualify to be mentioned as quality coaches who might have choose to remain in the college game?
How many of those coaches you mentioned ‘took the leap’ and found they or some one for them, found they didn’t fit?
And Bobby Knight, the hated, seems to always draw an added comment.
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
Tis But An Opinion
Benjamin Franklin:
Beauty, like supreme dominion Is but supported by opinion
David Hume:
Beauty in things exists merely in the mind which contemplates them.
So it is with your question, so with that in mind I would suggest asking the only man who has won both: Lawrence Harvey Brown — as far as I can tell he’s never compared the two.
"There are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." --James Madison
Indeed.
My feeling is he values them about equally, but then again, who knows.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I don’t know about the stay in the NBA for coaches being longer than the coaches at universities. Truly I don’t.
That would be an interesting study for someone to do.
I don’t follow pro basketball. Never did.
I enjoy college sports were young men are striving to get to the next level. Playing with, we hope, intensity, and for the sake of winning.
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
Well ...
… the money isn’t necessarily bigger in the NBA. Very many NBA coaches make less than Cal does now.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I think that makes sense.
At least to me. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
VARGAS JUST COMMITTED TO UK
WOW… this is great news.
by Shootmeibleedblue on May 15, 2010 3:30 PM EDT reply actions
In the NBA ...
a team can be built. Players are selected, not recruited, you can get experienced players right away with no need for development, and holes can be filled in the cases of injury or need during the season. You also have key players for as long as you want to pay what they demand, no one and dones or graduating seniors to worry about.
But how much control does the coach have to build that team in the NBA?
Player choices in the NBA are motivated by money as much, if not more, than the talent needs of the team. Key players can be gone in as little as a season due to free agency or the whims of management. NBA coaches (unless they’re Phil Jackson) have almost no control over who they get as players.
I’d also disagree with the idea that the NBA has much more talented players. I think that the concept of the one-and-done college player will do as much harm to the NBA talent pool as it is to the NCAA talent pool. Consider that many people acknowledge that NBA players are not “coached,” but are simply managed. Tru states (and I agree) that there is very little teaching of basketball in the NBA. But if a kid has only had limited (or no) college experience, where are they going to learn the type of basketball acumen that the pros demand? Natural talent of the Kobe or Labron kind is rare. Most of these kids need more than one year of college to learn enough basketball knowledge to make it in the pros. So I think as more and more kids go one-and-done due to inflated draft expectations, the NBA talent itself will start to become watered down, as kids who simply need more coaching than the NBA will provide won’t flourish.
You can put it on the board....YES.
Good point...
in the NBA the coach just becomes another piece of the puzzle. So maybe comparing the two, NCAA vs. NBA is the classic “apples and oranges”.
Can't recall on NBA coach wanting to coach college.
There are plenty of college coaches that would ‘kill’ for a chance to coach the big leagues. Question settled.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 15, 2010 5:51 PM EDT via mobile reply actions
thats because NBA coaches dont want to have to deal with NCAA violations.....keeping up with the money and where it is spent
and a lot of the mundane things an NCAA coach has to do. Most coaches, just want to coach………in college you cannot do that. And it is the only place that you cannot do that. Administrators keep up with grades and problems at the high school level. Pros only have to show up at practices and games, and keep the firearms out of their hands, as well as themselves out of places they dont belong. Question is not as easily “settled” as you might think. There is a mindset for each level…..that is the most important thing to have. Some coaches can change their mindset for the players they have to deal with, some cannot. College coaches must motivate, pro coaches must manage (but this line blurs more and more every year).
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
There have been many.
Larry Brown, Rick Pitino, Tim Floyd among others.
But as usual, your fallacy is one of generalization. Most of the coaches who would “kill” to coach in the NBA would also kill to coach at Kentucky, North Carolina, or UCLA.
I don’t see Ben Howland, Roy Williams, or Coach K clamoring to move on. Billy Donovan backed out of an NBA job after it was his.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Puuuuleese
Your less than a handful of examples does not make a case. Floyd was an abject failure in the NBA and had nowhere else to go. The same can be said of Pitino. The NCAA is the ‘refuge’ of failed NBA coaches…Cal being an example.
So your few examples do not make a case neither.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 15, 2010 7:38 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well ...
… how about you cite some examples then. You said you know of “plenty.”
So who are they, exactly. Try to stick to bigger-name schools, so we can compare apples to apples.
I rest my case. You have no point, only speculation.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
You want me to give examples of NBA coaches that DON'T want to coach NCAA?
You want me to prove a negative? Big challenge but here it goes. UNC begged George Karl. UK likely asked Dan Issel. UK probably begged Pat Riley. That’s all I got, because the NBA coaches don’t want to step down to college.
Simple really. You just need to open your mind to see others’ opinions. I rest my case.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 15, 2010 9:20 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No.
I asked you to provide a list of college coaches from big schools that do want to coach in the NBA.
All you had to do is read my comment.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on May 16, 2010 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions
Heck. Who knows?
I always said that I didn’t like long-legged, good looking blondes. It was easy to say and even send Tweets (if they would have had them then), because none of them seem to be interested. I sure would have changed my tune back in the day, if one had asked me out.
That’s the point. Nobody can really answer your question. As you commonly say….it’s all speculation. Right?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 16, 2010 8:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
So you're saying ...
… that you really have no idea what you’re talking about when you say:
There are plenty of college coaches that would ‘kill’ for a chance to coach the big leagues. Question settled.
Thank you for confirming my suspicion.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
You are being down-right silly.
Do actually expect that college coaches will Tweet (that’s the preferred formal, un-deniably true means of communication, right), they want to coach in the pros? Seriously? You think that there are names lined up to go to the pros? Get real. Reality is a beutiful thing. Embrace it.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
No ...
… But you do have to back up your claim with something. And what you have provided is less than nothing.
You couldn’t find reality with both hands if it was attached to your backside. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Just for grins...let's look at football.
There are MANY more that have gone to the pros and not vice versa. Spurrier, Carroll, Hultz, Saban. I can’t recall one established NFL coach stepping down to college.
Either basketball or football, the pros is where it’s at from a coaching standpoint. To think otherwise is somewhat foolish and kind of small-town. Sorry.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 15, 2010 9:36 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Football is very different.
In very many ways.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on May 16, 2010 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Sure. It's easy to be dismissive.
Especially if it counters one’s position. I think it as very similar….in many ways. More similar than not.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 16, 2010 8:05 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well ...
… once again, you have no idea what you are talking about. By that I mean, you are just trying to compare any remotely similar situations to prove a point, even using different sports.
I would note that every one of them (except Hultz, whom I don’t know) wound up in college. Which also shows that while football has the examples of coaches of major universities going to the pros, basketball has almost none.
Do you really think you’re making headway here? Can you really blame me for being dismissive of such an obvious logical disconnect?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
No, not really on the headway. You are much too stubborn. :-)
Wow…I have no idea what I am talking about. How ugly. Whatever, I’ll continue to keep ‘voicing’ my opinions without directly insulting others. I mean my opinion is valid. You welcomed views in the post. My opinion not offensive. Why must you be?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
here's ten of the most known
borrowed from
The Lost LettermeTop 10 Biggest NCAA-To-NBA Coaching Bombs
105
diggs
digg ShareKentucky’s Big Blue Nation can breath easy as John Calipari just announced on Twitter that he will be returning to Lexington next season. It’s a smart move considering he’s now royalty in the Bluegrass State and went just 72-112 during his stint with the Nets in the late ‘90s, ranking him among the Top 10 Biggest NCAA-To-NBA Coaching Bombs of all time based on how far they fell short of expectations. The lesson here kids? Stay in school.
10. Clair Bee
From 1931 to 1951, Bee’s Long Island University squads won an unheard of 95 percent of their games and won two NITs. He jumped to the NBA in 1952 where his winning percentage wasn’t quite as good. In two seasons with the Baltimore Bullets, he went 32-107 and never coached an NBA game again. But his mark on the game remains, as he’s responsible for the 1-3-1 zone defense, the three-second rule and the 24-second shot clock.
.
9. John Calipari
Calipari’s final five season prior to jumping for the NBA were just as impressive as Rick Pitino’s prior to his jump. His UMass teams dominated the A-10, winning the conference regular season and tournament titles all five seasons. In the last two years, he reached the Elite Eight and Final Four (well, technically this Final Four appearance no longer exist). So Calipari left to save the moribund Nets in 1996. After a disastrous first season, he did manage to reach the NBA Playoffs as a No. 8 seed in year two. But he couldn’t carry the momentum, beginning the next season 3-17 before being canned. So much for refusing to lose.
.
……
8. Jerry Tarkanian
Looming NCAA investigations into his program at UNLV essentially forced Tarkanian out of his job with the Runnin’ Rebels. But after coaching arguably the greatest college basketball team ever (NCAA violations be damned), the Spurs gave him a shot in the pro ranks in 1992. What Tarkanian wanted more than the job, however, was a point guard, something owner Red McCombs disagreed with. The rift between the two only got bigger until McCombs canned Tarkanian after a 9-11 start. Said McCombs: "I have a hard time with my coach telling me three times a day, seven days a week that we can’t compete with top teams." The Shark was axed after just 20 games.
.
7. Reggie Theus
Theus coached just two seasons at New Mexico State but he didn’t waste any time turning the program into a winner. After a good 16-14 record, the team exploded to 25-9 and a 2007 NCAA appearance in year two. But Theus’ magic only worked in college. He went 38-44 in his first season with Sacramento and then got off to a 6-18 start in his second season before getting the boot. Unfortunately we don’t have his stats during his tenure as head coach of the Deering High School Tornadoes in "Hang Time." We’re sure they were good though.
.
……..
6. Paul Westhead
Westhead is an interesting case because he had brief professional success with the Lakers before landing at Loyola Marymount. It was there he perfected "The System" run by Hank Gathers and Bo Kimble which eventually led to the emotional Elite Eight run in 1990. Westhead took another shot at the professional ranks, installing his run-and-gun offense in Denver. Despite scoring a league best 119.9 points a game, they gave up the most points in the league (130.8). People even referred to the team as the Enver Nuggets (as in no "D"). He was fired after two seasons and a 44-120 record.
.
5. P.J. Carlesimo
Carlesimo is responsible for making Seton Hall basketball, getting the program to its first NCAA Tournament appearance in 1988 and finishing as national runners up in 1989. In all, he took the Pirates to six NCAA Tournaments and was named Big East Coach of the Year twice. Carlesimo made the jump to the NBA in 1994 and went to the playoffs his first three seasons – but keep in mind this team was used to being at the top of the Western Conference with Clyde Drexler and Co. He never got out of the first round and was whacked after three seasons. His stop at Golden State did not go as well – and that’s not even including being choked by Latrell Sprewell. He coached Oklahoma City last season but was fired after a 1-12 start. In all, Carlesimo’s NBA winning percentage is a paltry 41 percent.
.
4. Lon Kruger
Not counting his first head coaching gig, Kruger was very successful in college. At Kansas State, Florida and Illinois, he made the NCAA Tournament in 12 of those 14 years and reached the Final Four once. So it’s no surprise he was a confident man. So confident, in fact, that as coach of the Atlanta Hawks in 2002, he guaranteed fans a $125 refund if the Hawks didn’t reach the playoffs. Kruger didn’t even reach the end of the season before he was fired. The team finished 35-47 and, sadly, no one got their money.
.
3. Leonard Hamilton
In the 40 seasons before Hamilton came to the University of Miami in 1991, the Hurricanes reached the postseason four times. From 1991-2000, Hamilton took Miami to the Big Dance five times. As is the case with a lot of these coaches, the ability to turnaround a program is a big lure for NBA GMs, and in 2000 the Washington Wizards came calling. But the only thing Hamilton turned around were people’s lunches after a 19-63 record.
.
……..
2. Tim Floyd
He was called "Timothy The Great" at Iowa State after leading the Cyclones to three NCAA Tournaments and one basket away from the 1997 Elite Eight. Floyd’s arrival in Chi-town was a recipe for disaster, replacing Phil Jackson and having a standoff with "His Airness," who refused to play for Floyd. But no one expected Floyd to go just 49-190 – the worst winning percentage of any coach with 200 games under his belt. Marinate on that for a second. He redeemed himself slightly in 2003 by going 41-41 with the New Orleans Hornets – only to get fired at the end of the year despite making the playoffs.
.
1. Rick Pitino
What makes Pitino the biggest bomb is the expectations that came with his arrival in Boston. Pitino had brought Lexington its first national title in 18 years. His final six seasons saw two Elite Eight finishes, three Final Four appearances and a national championship. There was reason to believe he would succeed in Bean Town after a successful stint with the New York Knicks. He was expected to bring the Celtics back to glory and was given total control of the team as coach, GM, CEO and President.
But his time with the Celtics was an epic failure. It appeared jinxed from the beginning when, despite the worst record in the league, the Celtics didn’t win the lottery and the Spurs got Tim Duncan instead. The height of his frustration culminated in an epic rant that included the classic, "Larry Bird is not walking through that door, fans" line. Pitino walked out the door in 2001 and back to college basketball with his tail between his legs after a 102-146 record in four seasons in Boston.
Said Pitino afterward: "The University of Kentucky is the Roman Empire, they are Camelot, it was the biggest mistake of my life leaving Lexington." It appears John Calipari took note.
n
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
Here's ten.............
Very good post Paris Guy. I do “personally” disagree with one point though. According to Quinn Buckner, no dummy, the 1996 UK Wildcats was the greatest team to ever take the floor in NCAA history. His remark came just before the tip-off of the championship game against Syracuse in 1996. And Mr. Buckner on his own admission “hated” the University of Kentucky. Proves one thing though, that one can hate an opponent yet make an honest evaluation about them.
by WildcatBlue1930Adolph on May 16, 2010 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions
Everyone is different but in Cal's case it seems obvious
that he wants an NBA Title more
He is seeking to be an NBA coach and that is obvious
There's a reason they call it "the next level"
I believe that for most coaches, that’s how they see it. Not all, but most. It’s a business to Cal. He doesn’t “bleed blue” in the sense that UK fans do. Of course he’s all in in terms of commitment while he’s there. But the UK “branding”, etc, is just smart business. He understands the business of basketball and he backs it up with his M.O. He attracts the recruits that want to “advance” to the next level (NBA) and provides the path through UK.
Since that’s his sales pitch, it only makes sense that’s his belief.
Now, to answer your question on which is better? Personally, it’s even. To Cal, it’s the NBA.
you had me till the end
I agree completely with everything before that. It’s not shocking or scandalous or hurtful to fans to say “it’s a business to Cal,” because, well, duh. I don’t think we fans expect that UK basketball can ever mean quite the same thing to a coach, who comes from elsewhere, has worked for other programs and is paid to do the job, as it does to the fans, for whom Kentucky fandom literally feels like a part of the genetic code. OF course he doesn’t “bleed blue” in the same way that we do. It’s a job to coaches—we get it, it’s cool. You’re right that Calipari demonstrates astute business sense about the job—the work on branding, the marketing of his ability to get players to “the next level.” Again, all this is fine with us—it;s done in the service of making UK basketball better. We get the fact that the elite players don’t come from the hollers of Kentucky where selling only Kentucky’s fine history might be enough to ensure we get the best players and the best possible teams. I WANT a brilliant salesman and business mind in the top spot of the program.
But this? “Since that’s his sales pitch, it only makes sense that’s his belief.” Really? Do you think sales piches always reveal the seller’s true and honest beliefs? You must buy a lot of useless products ; ) And then there’s this: “To Cal, it’s the NBA.” Again, really? I don’t get this reading deep physological insight into people known only in a public sense, but even if you could…marketing NBA dreams to elite h.s. basketball talent as a way to convince them to come to Kentucky is NOT contradictory. Cal (or any other coach, and let’s face it, they all do this) isn’t betraying a preference for the pro game by extolling his ability to get you there—because the pro game and the college game are mutually exclusive. College is a conduit to get to a job for ALL of us. A college business school selling its ability to get you to a Fortune 500 company isn’t being disloyal to the school—they’re marketing the very skills that they give you, and their usefulness in the “real world.” Same with sports coaches, right?
To answer the original question, naturally it’s just a matter of opinion and no one is right or wrong. But speaking as a Kentuckian…well, of COURSE the college title, because there is no sport on earth more important and wonderful than college basketball. : )
by blue kentucky girl on May 16, 2010 9:05 AM EDT up reply actions
bkg: One of the benefits of foreign readership
is that they can look at a situation with fresh, unbiased eyes (at least in this case). This is what I have done here. Coach Cal is doing exactly what he should do as it pertains to his vision of the program, and he’s good at it. I’m also pointing out the fact that the way he is doing things – promoting Kentucky more as a gateway to the NBA rather than as a “whole” University of Kentucky experience that also includes potential NBA benefits – is an indication of his value system. Meaning, he puts more value on getting people through to the “next level” than he does on the broader scope of the college experience as a whole. Fine by me, but that doesn’t necessarily lead to a loving relationship to the “program” as much as the “process” and “results”. The player’s grades, albeit only one year, is another indicator that once the results are achieved (five into the NBA) the rest is less important. Maybe next year he’ll prove me wrong.
Regardless, his actions validate my opinion that his sales pitch is based on his beliefs. And he’s good at selling what many of these kids are buying. But does that mean that he values the head coaching job at UK more than an NBA job? In my opinion, no. If he valued UK and his job as his ultimate position, he would be more immersed in the entire college experience and his pitch would be more to that end. On the contrary, that’s not what he’s selling.
As you stated, I don’t have a psychological insight into John Calipari — NOBODY does! I agree that his actions are not contrary to the love of the position; only to the position as his personal nirvana. I’m not suggesting that he’s evil, or disloyal, doesn’t love his job, or isn’t doing what he feels is best. But if you pit the UK job, arguably the best college basketball job in the country, against the best NBA job in the country, my guess is Cal chooses the latter.
Whatever he does, its working.
He may not use the university experience to recruit but look at what the players say after they leave. They say they will miss and also thank Kentucky and the fans, not Calipari.
'....promoting Kentucky as the gateway to the NBA...'
No way. No how. Cal promotes himself. Kentucky has nothing to do with it. Not necessarily a bad strategy. That works as long as Cal is there.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 16, 2010 8:12 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Well ...
… he is unquestionably promoting Kentucky as well, but I would generally agree that he is promoting himself first.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
you had me............
Wow! What a reply. Ditto here sister. One more thought. Did all of those players that coach
Pitino had at UK just play there because they liked to see the bluegrass sway back and forth in the wind? I think not! LOL
by WildcatBlue1930Adolph on May 16, 2010 11:01 PM EDT up reply actions
It is the next level of basketball, to be sure.
Is it really the next level of coaching? That’s another question that is far more complicated, as I’ve outlined.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on May 16, 2010 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Not necessarily,
but I believe that for Coach Cal, at some point it is. And that’s not a knock on Kentucky. I just don’t think UK is his final destination, and there’s no where else to aspire to in the college ranks.
But why would you think that?
It’s fairly clear that the NBA thing has been tried by Cal. He has been there, done that, got the t-shirt.
This is new to him, something he’s never done — coach a legendary program. His choice, if you believe the rumors, are between coaching a legendary college program (something he has aspired to for years — he could have gone to the NBA any one of a dozen times while at Memphis), or coaching one presumably legendary player — Lebron James.
At best, his run in the NBA would be seven or eight years, and even if he wins a couple of NBA championships in that time, will he be remembered? LeBron will, but not Cal.
On the other hand, if he wins 2 or more national championships at UK, he is a mortal lock for the HOF. His best work, by far, has been done in college, and that’s where his heart seems to be. He uses the interface between the NBA and college for his own purposes, but if you take the fact that he has been waiting FOR YEARS for a shot to coach at a place like Kentucky, it makes no sense that he would want to leave anytime soon.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
That's the question
I’ll admit that I didn’t know he had been waiting for years to coach at a place like Kentucky. That does make a big difference as to when he might leave, and adds something to the “if” argument as well. If true, I agree that to have waited so long for that situation and then up and leave a year or two later makes no sense.
On the other hand, what if he was presented with a reasonably clear path to an NBA championship? That might not have been in the cards before. Timing is everything. You’re 100% right about the fact that he won’t leave UK to coach an average team in a bad market for the sake of coaching in the NBA. I never meant to imply that. However, Coach Cal is a competitor, and I still think he has some unfinished business in the NBA, and he may feel that claiming an NBA championship (the highest level in the world) authenticates his career.
I guess the answer doesn’t lie in so much as what we believe makes sense, but rather in what motivates Calipari to to what he does. Funny, over the past few months I’ve learned more about him and have a different impression of him than I once did. To understand the actions is to understand the man, and you definitely have the upper hand there.
"...reasonably clear path to an NBA championship...?
You mean like the one LeBron and Co. were supposed to have this year?
Betting on “sure things” in basketball is a sure road to ruin. But I do take your point that what motivates Calipari is really the issue. If he finds the prospect of an NBA championship more appealing than becoming a college coaching legend, then I think he may well leave.
I just happen to think that isn’t the case. I could be wrong. It would not be the first time, or the last. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Helllllooooo? McFly??????
You do realize Cal can make millions more in the NBA, right? You do realize money is king with Cal, right?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 17, 2010 5:17 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Is it?
I don’t accept that at all, given what he has said. I choose to believe him until he demonstrates otherwise. Your mileage may vary.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Next level of coaching
That’s a good point, Tru, and I think I would have to go with no on that. College coaches are – IMO – much more important to the team than NBA coaches. The college coach is the captain of the ship, so to speak, the team looks to them for guidance. The college coach is giving the “orders” and the team carries them out. The college coach is definitely “in charge” and is the one with the knowledge and the game plan for the game. The NBA coach as a lot LESS control. It is not uncommon – I would think – for players on the team to make more money than the coach and in the sense of being “in charge” I really feel that the players in the NBA are the ones running the show and coaches can become nothing more than a puppet in a suit on the sideline. As NBA players get bigger and bigger, they control more and more about the team as a whole in many different ways.
Cal doesnt seem to me to be the type to really enjoy that kind of thing. Yes – Cal is known for the “let the players play their game” style of bball, BUT the key word there is “let.” At the college level, Cal is still “the man with the plan.” He gets to stand up at press conferences and say things like, “They are still learning. They are gonna make mistakes.” Etc. Let him try saying something like that about a big NBA superstar. I think Cal much prefers being “the man.” Im not saying that’s good or thats bad, I just think he likes himself out front way too much to be “overshadowed” as far as his contribution to the team and the success.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on May 17, 2010 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions
Your point is well taken
I believe your right. And I would think trying to control a professional basketball player would be much harder that a football player.
Carroll went this year to Seattle. And the ones you mentioned.
Cal is playing Pitino’s games concerning the NBA. And who says he isn’t tell the general manager’s with his statement about staying at Kentucky “its time to but up the big bucks before I’m interested”? I saw someone posted many coaches in the NBA don’t make what he is pulling down at Kentucky.
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
Many pro coaches make less than Calipari.
Of course, no pro team would offer him less than what he is currently making, so in all honesty, that’s not completely relevant.
If Calipari went to the NBA, it would likely only be for a situation that provided control over player personnel (I believe Pitino had that deal) as well as a substantial raise.
I don’t believe that will happen for a number of reasons, not the least of which it has failed every time it has been tried when bringing a coach from the college ranks. That doesn’t prove that it can’t be done, of course, but the terrible history of college coaches moving to the NBA will surely be a factor.
Finally, I don’t think Calipari believes that coaching in the NBA is more useful to his legacy than coaching in college. Many, many people disagree with me on that, though, and I can’t claim they are suffering from more cognitive dissonance than I.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on May 16, 2010 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh, I see this acknowledgement now about money.
There are plenty of teams that would pay. Cal’s talent is all around getting along with players. That’s a large part, if not the biggest part, of a NBA’s coaches needed skill set. You keep writing this ‘legacy’ thing. I don’t know where you come up with that.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on May 17, 2010 5:22 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yes you do. You just want to pretend you don't so you can keep taking shots.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I am NOT taking shots.
I WANT Cal to be the coach of the Bulls…if that means he brings LeBron.
By the way, I just complimented Cal’s ability to get along with players. Having a bad day?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Legacy
What coach does not want to be remembered long after their time on the sidelines has ended? Cal has already begun working on that here at the college level. He is much more likely to acheive that goal at the college level than in the NBA just looking at the time he wants to remain coaching. Based on the amount of years Cal envisions himself still coaching, it is far more likely that he will win enough (conference titles, Final Fours, Championships, 30-win seasons, etc) to be considered one of the best coaches of all time in college rather than the NBA. There is more opportunity to win at the college level, IMO. In order to build the legacy I feel Cal is looking for, he would have to win the NBA championship virtually every year and we all know how likely that is.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on May 17, 2010 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions
Cal didn't value his legacy at Memphis much.
I just think the legacy thing with most coaches is way over-rated.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Memphis
can ahrdly provide the legacy that Kentucky can. I dont think its over-rated at all. You dont think it would matter to Cal at all to one day be thought of in the esteem as Coach Adolph Rupp?
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on May 17, 2010 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
have posted breaking news in fanposts about this.....seems we were all led astray.....
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
It's all about skill set
It takes an entirely different set of skills to be successful in the pros than in college. For example would John Wooden, Adolf Rupp or even Bobboy (sic) Knight have been successful in the pros? With one notable exception winning in both just hasn’t happened because of that. Interestingly enough though Larry Brown is the exception and we all know how Cal feels about Larry.
I think that Cal wants to win at UK before he considers other options since UK gives him the best chance for an NCAA title or titles. Once that happens, I believe he will consider NBA options but not before.
You may be onto something here
Maybe it’s not that Calipari simply values an NBA title more than an NCAA title. Maybe he wants both! If that’s the case, the decision isn’t whether or not he’ll jump to the NBA – he will – but when. If he feels like he can get the college championship easier than an NBA he may look at his current NBA opportunity as his best shot to check that off his list. If not, his best chance at an NCAA title has to be with Kentucky.
Not impossible.
But that is an extraordinarily unlikely scenario. It happened with Larry Brown, but Brown is a gypsy that Calipari is not, and has coached no less than 10 NBA teams, almost 1/3 of the entire league at one time or another.
You never know what he might be thinking, but I consider that quite unlikely. He would be more famous for winning multiple times at UK than for winning one in college and even two in the pros.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Agreed,
if fame is indeed the motivating factor. If it is, he’s not going anywhere. As great as Phil Jackson and Red Auerabach are/were, you still have to look at John Wooden as the most famous coach of all time. There’s just so much more passion in the college game. Love it.
We are all in basic agreement
The most likely (in my mind) scenario is:
Cal wins 3 at UK and takes them to 10 NCAA titles overall to tie UCLA (unless of course UCLA sneaks in another). Remember he talked about 10 wins at UK early on. THEN he goes pro with what he considers the best team with the best ownership at that time to win multiple NBA crowns. Cal does not know how to think small – I mean what other coach takes over an NIT team and encourages his players to believe they can go undefeated before they ever play a game? The man thinks big – I love it!!!
Yep,
Too bad the NCAA was such a timid little baby at the time; the number very well wouldn’t be that high.
Logic vs math
I guess there was a reason I didn’t get my engineering degree!! Had to switch to business.
You are right but then again I always resented Wooden announcing his retirement (and my very unobjective opinion is that we would have won otherwise) the night before they played UK so I don’t want to give them that one!!! Sour grapes I know.
Still think Cal wants multiple wins in both the NCAA and the NBA.
Sorry,.........
Quite right. They got number 11 under that guy who was fired the next season
and UCLA had an investigation into something illegal. Oh yeah, his name was Steve Lavin who now works for ESPN. Of course you never hear about the firing or the investigation. Hmmmmmm. Par for the course. LOL
by WildcatBlue1930Adolph on May 17, 2010 11:30 PM EDT up reply actions
actually Adolph, Lavin is now back in coaching at St Johns........made a play for
a couple of our recruits this year…..
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Fame
I totally believe that is what Cal wants at the end of the day. I say he stays at the college level simply because the gamble of becoming one of those coulda-been great coaches that goes out on a low is more than he is willing to take. He has got as much of a “sure thing” in that area as one could hope for right now.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on May 17, 2010 10:09 AM EDT up reply actions
NBA Championship vs. NCAA Title?
I meant to comment on this feature post yesterday, but I had a million things going on and I’m just now getting back to it. I see that several people have mentioned some things that I was going to say so I apologize if some of this is repetitive, but I really think this is an awesome topic (good job, Tru : )) and especially with the NBA playoffs being in full swing, I also think the timing is rather appropriate, as well.
While I do follow the NBA a bit, I would consider myself a lukewarm NBA fan and on the flipside I would consider myself a scalding hot college basketball fan, so I’m hardly going to be impartial when posed with the feature post question and I think, as others have stated, both arguments (either for college championship or NBA title from a coaching standpoint) have their strong points.
I guess I would just say that it all depends on where a coach is in his professional career and what kind of drive does he have? I would agree that the NBA is probably thought of as a move up in ones basketball coaching career and I suppose a college coach would have to ask himself the question of — has he conquered all he set out to do and now feels the need to go and conquer the next step where there is more money to be made, where the fan bases are larger than in college basketball (and as big and far reaching a fan base that UK has, I would dare say that the historically great (Celtics, Lakers, etc) NBA teams have a considerably greater amount of fans than UK) and are the larger markets that most of what I would consider to be the better NBA jobs (that’s why they are the better NBA jobs, because of the markets they are in, IMO) and what they can offer appeal to him at that particular time in his life?
I have no idea as to the answers, but I will say this, timing is everything and things do change over time. Ones goals, desires, health, and a plethora of other things can change in an individual’s life resulting in a desire for career change.
To think that the college ranks and arguably the best job in college basketball (and that’s not just the UK homer in me talking, either, RhinoDawg says the same thing above : )) well, to think that this is the end of the line for Calipari and it’s all that he aspires for, and I’m not saying anyone here is totally behind that thinking, but to me that is a bit unrealistic.
National titles, John Wall, Washington Bullets, Wizards
First, I have to correct you. It was the Washington Bullets, not the Baltimore Bullets who won the NBA title in ’78. They still exist, they are now the Wizards. In fact, former Kentucky All American Kevin Grevey started on that Bullets championship team:
I should have asked him which he would rather have had, an NCAA title or an NBA title. he lost in the NCAA title game in ’75 to UCLA and the loss still burns him, though he scored 34 points.
Which is better – an NCAA or NBA title? I think they’re equal but judging by the way New Yorkers treated Patrick Ewing, it’s as if they forgot he won a national championship in college.
Speaking of Kentucky players and the Washington Wizards, John Wall should help return the franchise to prominence: http://www.examiner.com/x-37753-DC-Sports-Examiner~y2010m5d18-Lady-Luck-Washington-Wizards-get-top-pick-in-NBA-Draft-Lottery-chance-for-John-Wall-of-Kentucky.
People here in DC are giddy over the chance to get Wall. He’s now part of the city’s big three, along with Alexander Ovechkin and Stephen Strasburg, all number one picks.
Trivia – a couple of other Wildcats played for the Bullets – Mel Turpin and Kenny Sky Walker. I’m sure there are others.
Back to the question, in this area, I’d say the reaction to the Bullets winning the NBA title and Maryland winning the NCAA title in 2002 was about the same.
Finally, the Wizards are going to trade Gilbert Arenas, sign LeBron James, and Calipari will come to Washington.
just kidding about that last sentence!
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