Kentucky Basketball: Big Blue Navel-Gazing
by Glenn Logan on Apr 5, 2010 8:59 AM EDT
in Commentary
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PrintNow that the season is over for the Kentucky Wildcats, we are seeing a good bit of introspection on the part of Wildcat fans everywhere. As introspection is practically our stock in trade here at A Sea of Blue, it's probably time we bit the bullet and joined the party.
Every Kentucky fan had hoped to see an end to the chaos surrounding Lexington after John Calipari made his triumphant pilgrimage to the big office in the Joe Craft Center. But alas, the untidiness of the last four years has merely metastasized -- from who might be leaving the program due to unhappiness to who might be leaving to join the pros. The angst is still there, there are no new NCAA championships (or even a Final Four) to celebrate, and for the second year in a row, one of the programs UK fans least want to be there is in the National Finals.
Add to that Devil's brew a dollop of questions surrounding the cohesion and happiness of a team that fans had been repeatedly told were "having fun," a dash of fear of having only four or five returning players, a pinch of uncertainty about who will be coming to replace the departing and aspiring pros, a little unethical and juvenile fan behavior, and a healthy dose of second-guessing Doctor Calipari's prescription for Kentucky basketball, and you have one foul-smelling plate that the Big Blue Nation is understandably reluctant to taste.
On the flip side, Kentucky has achieved national prominence again, won the SEC regular-season and tournament championships, put "paid" to many old debts in the form of beating teams that have dominated the Wildcats over the last few years, had several All-Americans, a couple of Player of the Year awards, a plethora of positive press coverage, an Elite Eight, attention from every five-star recruit in America and a partridge in a pear tree.
Now that we've seen that there are two sides to every coin, or a silver lining to every cloud (or whatever trite metaphor you prefer), here are a few questions to think about as you contemplate the nature of your belly-button lint while dreading the sight of Duke defecating on the hopes and dreams of college basketball fans everywhere:
- What if Calipari had kept Matt Pilgrim and allowed Daniel Orton to go elsewhere? Pilgrim had a really solid year with the Oklahoma St. Cowboys, and probably could have filled in Orton's spot, who's playing time and usage have been criticized by his father. Calipari could have traded a bit of talent for experience there.
- Based on 1. above, could Calipari have used more of the Dribble Drive Motion? Would that have helped?
- Will John Calipari's teams ever get over the deserved reputation of being lousy from the line? Is this just a stubborn thing that Calipari refuses to address, or is it just "bad luck?"
- Can a Kentucky team starting completely over and be as successful considering the incoming recruiting class will be just as young, and according to knowledgeable experts less talented, than this year's class?
- Is the "recruit the best players, all the time" strategy that Calipari employs likely to succeed? We have seen this year arguably the best freshman-led team in college basketball history, but they managed to fall victim to their youth just short of the finish line. Exception, or trend?
- Is it possible to really recruit at the level Coach Cal is recruiting at and maintain a cohesive team, given that this team appears to be somewhat less "happy" than we were led to believe?
- How much will UK's APR take a hit this year with the departing players? Will it cost Kentucky a scholarship?
- What lessons did Coach Cal learn from this team's success and failure?
- What lessons did Kentucky fans learn about themselves from this season?
- Now that UK is hated almost as badly as Duke, how do you feel, dear Kentucky fan?
Of course, this is all meant mostly in fun, and the answers to these questions don't really exist except in our own obsessed minds. But we here at A Sea of Blue are known for asking questions of the darkness. Who knows, maybe someday soon, the answer will be, "Number Eight."
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Youth
I just do not believe that Kentucky’s youth is what caused them to fall short of the finish line. I believe that this exact same scenerio could have happened with an experienced team as well. Many people have referenced Kansas here. The NCAA tournament has SO MANY variables – it is very hard to win. Anything can happen on a given night. There is nothing to prove that if this Kentucky team were more experienced that the same thing wouldnt have happened. I just dont blame their youth.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 5, 2010 9:29 AM EDT reply actions
I am so with you on this
I really reject the idea that this team’s youth was some sort of fatal flaw that precluded it from winning it all. Just because they DIDN’T win it doesn’t mean they COULDN’T have.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2010 11:03 AM EDT up reply actions
I reject that idea as well.....
now since there are 3 rejections does that mean we have quorum of objections which would in and of itself represent a majority, and thereby no longer require a rejection which could result in a goaltending call…..??
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
and here, i believe we have a catch 22....
i believe the loss was more due to in game coaching decisions – which become more important given the youth on the floor. that being said, we would not have had the talent level (and youth) without the current coach doing the recruiting.
i will take the good with the bad. we are so starved for a final four that we did get ahead of ourselves. cal went to 3 NITs at memphis before moving to the ncaa tourney. he is running on a treadmill of sorts by having to reload every year, but i believe with miller (and if he can keep dodson), he will have some junior and senior leadership to help out. we could also see a lockout (no 2011 draft) and end up with a very talented AND experienced team for 2011-12. i know 2 years out seems like an enternity, but it will take some time to get the shelves restocked….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 5, 2010 11:21 AM EDT up reply actions
everyone has to realize, (myself included) that winning it all in less than a year
would be not only an amazing feat, it was nigh on to impossible…..yes, I wanted it more than most, but we got a good glimpse of what is to come…..I am fine with whatever he has planned next……2011-2012 for another NC???…..fine with me, as long as we are in the mix next year…..I can live with that
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Yeah, it really is a catch 22.
You could go round and round in circles for days debating talent vs. experience, but in the end, well, you would end up nowhere because each one of those things affects another factor, which in turn affects another, and so on and so on.
This year’s talent was desperately needed, IMO, to put UK back on the map, so to speak, and now that that was accomplished (I consider an Elite Eight appearance after an NIT one quite an accomplishment) well, now the team and program building can begin and I fully expect that it will as I’m quite certain that Coach Calipari knows what is the best and most reliable way to compete for a championship every year – a good balance of talent and experience.
You always take talent.
Any coach would tell you the same.
At the same time, you have to wonder where the experience will come from. I’m reasonably sure that we’ll see a smaller exodus next year, but you never know.
The unfortunate thing is that if everything works out in the worst possible way, i.e. both Orton and Bledsoe decide to say in the draft, we’ll be looking at a team next year that makes this one look like a graybeard.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
"You always take talent."
agree 100%, and then, in an ideal world, you hope that that talent will then gain in-game experience by playing for us for a few years. You must start with the talent first, IMO, because, after all, what good is an experienced player without any talent? Not much, IMO.
As far as the question of “where will the experience come from?” and in thinking about next year’s team potentially making the 2009/2010 team look like a greybeard (that’s quite cute, btw) if Orton and Bledsoe move on — well, it does seem that a lot will depend on the darn NBA CBA, won’t it? Gee, I hate being dependent on others, especially the NBA.
but we are NOT an NBA D-league......lol......
it’s damned if you do, damned if you dont…..
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Another issue to consider.
With a young, talented team comes young emotions & egos. I think it’s fair to say that there were some ‘behind the scenes’ issues that worked against this team that no doubt hurt in the long run.
Lastly, although Cal is the best recruiter, he’s not the only good or even great recruiter. It’s not a fait acompli that he can go out and automatically recruit three or four 5-stars every year. Keep your expectations real.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Agree with the first ...
… pretty much can’t agree with the second. His record speaks for itself.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Wow....so you say he can go out an automatically recruit four 5-star players.
I think that’s unfair to Cal and the program at least. At worse, it doesn’t acknowledge his effort or talents in this area. I think that’s too bad either way.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
About your last part...
I think it’s very true and very possible that we won’t be getting the four and 5 star recruits every year, but it’s not just because of Coach Cal.
Sure, it’s true that some kids might not find Coach Cal to be the perfect fit, but it’s also quite plausible that they won’t think UK is their perfect school, either. Maybe they want to stay closer to home, and Kentucky is not close to home. Main point, yes, I think it’s true that not all the top HS players in the country are going to be coming UK and Cal’s way EVERY YEAR, and some years Coach may not have a choice not to recruit the four or 5 stars, but it could be for a number of reasons other than Coach’s recruiting prowess.
Yes exactly.
Cal is not the alpha and the omega for every recruit’s decision. That was supposed to be my point. You can’t nor should expect him to overcome all the factors that are in consideration. He’s not a perfect, all-powerful recruiter. That doesn’t mean he isn’t the best out there.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Yep.
And although it doesn’t answer the above question of "Where will the experience come from?" for the immediate future — in say, two to three years, what we are talking about could certainly be an answer for that question.
UK’s inability to attract the 4 and 5 star players (and please understand, I don’t necessarily think that’s a bad thing) for whatever reason, or on the flipside Coach’s desire not to recruit the 4 and 5 star players, for whatever reason, will result in some lesser-stared players being recruited and signing with UK and that could turn out to be a good thing every other year or so.
Under the current NBA structure (if the structure changes, this whole thought process changes, too, of course) those 2-to-three star players while still highly skilled but due to their talent-level (hence the 2 and 3 stars) are far less likely to have the opportunity to leave for the NBA after one year, and consequently, that’s where we will be getting our experience from. See, Viola. : ) It will all work out.
Catch 22? More like Portnoy's Complaint.
All this self-abuse has got us worried about things that would thrill most fan bases. Make it to the Elite Eight? Only eight teams (sorry) do that. Lose All-Americans? Hate to do it, but Coach Cal is the best recruiter in the land. Youth? Inexperience? Let’s always take talent, ’cause we can get it. (ISS)(Just had to balance Catch 22 with Portnoy)
Now, to how I really feel. We’ve got to have a balance of talent and experience, IMO. BSC’s question, “What good is experience without talent?” isn’t a simple dichotomy. There are varying levels and types of talent. Ali F+11 from N. Iowa isn’t super fast, nor tall, but he shot OK when it counted. Michael Porter was a great scorer in HS, but wasn’t the ball-handler UK needed at the point.
As to my main “point”, a mix of one-and-doners with some guys on the next rung down that might provide experience could be just the ticket. Even if our worst scenario plays out, we already have three to four guys who can help provide the experience (even if one of them just got garbage minutes) for next year’s team. The mix Coach Cal brings in with the new class will determine the shape of things two and three years down the road. Let’s hope he gets it right. I, for one, think he will. I think he got it pretty right this year, but Bledsoe and Orton have let the money and potential CBA situation cloud their decision-making. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
Portnoy’s Complaint, huh?
I will admit that I was not familiar with that reference and had to look it up. And, once I did I realized why I wasn’t familiar, it’s not a classic by definition and both the novel and movie were quite a bit before my time. ; ) But, in reading a quick plot synopsis, yes, I can see how that might be an accurate comparison to what we are discussing here.
Talent vs. Experience is a tough one, you are right, and there really isn’t an easy and absolutely correct answer as to which one is more valuable as they both do have their moments, but that’s just it, the moments in which talent is needed far outweigh the moments in which is experience is needed, IMO, and that’s why I would go with the talent first.
I will agree that experience, and this year’s tourney is a pretty good indication of that, well, I will agree that experience can definitely win games in March. It’s not all that is needed, but like you mentioned with Ali F (I have no idea how to pronounce or spell his last name, but with a name like that he may very well be related to Portnoy, if you get my drift : )) — well, yes, he shot OK when it counted, but then again, if he had more talent, they might have won the next game, also? His experience didn’t get them the grand prize, just like our talent didn’t do it for us. So see, we really could go round and round for days debating talent vs. experience, couldn’t we? And the fact that there is no easy and absolutely correct answer is why.
I agree that a good mix of talent vs. experience in a basketball team is the magical potion and most dependable way to complete for NC every year, and I believe Coach Cal believes it too. He hasn’t gotten this far by being a basketball novice and I’m sure he’s aware of what it takes. You want a good mix, I want a good mix, and I don’t know about you, but I get what I want a pretty good portion of the time. : )
F+11 will do, BSC. Didn't mean that we didn't need talent,
just that there are varying degrees of talent, and sometimes in different areas. Obviously, we didn’t have enough in the “3-shooting” area in the last game, or didn’t have it in at the right time.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
No.
I get the only vote that counts. :-)
Just kidding.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Perhaps
but I heard a sportscaster saying something like the zone that WVA provided to the Cats is a very frustrating zone. Experienced players would not have gotten exasperated as our Cats did. I am not sure that our Cats were exasperated but I do agree that experience helps you get through the tough circumstances but really our guys were so unique that I had really come to the conculsion that they could fight through anything. I just think that it was WVU night……..but still say that give this team one more year and I would be willing to bet that they could go undefeated.
Only 1 variable...
There is only one variable that will never change and it doesn’t matter if you are a freshman, soph. junior or senior… it is called making shots…these kids never got beat by a better team all year… they didn’t get beat because of youth… plain, pure and simple they got outscored because they didn’t make the shots when they counted… forget the freshman…. did any of the upperclassmen show up (except Patterson) and concistently hit the big shots and make the FTs when needed. Yeah Miller had a couple of good games, so did Dodsen, so did…., so did…., but, when they got outscored, someone of the other teams made the big shots when they counted… and, that is not just youth…
people, people, people
our loss to WV was about shooting……………..they did, we didnt……they were lights out from 3, we were somewhere south of lousy……both 3s and FT…………the TO didnt help either
by bigbill992001 on Apr 6, 2010 5:35 AM EDT up reply actions
Cornell
was a veteran team that lived by the three but couldn’t get it done against UK’s youth. The youth argument is getting old.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
like I said
depends on what the team brings. That zone is hard for veterans to figure out much less freshman.
I agree...with a caveat
Patrick Patterson was basically ignored in the WV game…and being that he is from WV, he should have been involved late in the first half on…Cousins was getting mugged by triple teams and Pat was settling for outside shots…but FT shooting cost us that game…and that’s on the coaching staff…regardless of the teams age…especially in the tournament (and coming off two games where we didn’t hit FT’s very well and still won…Wake and Cornell…)…still, I think it was a great season…the question is, can UK do it again…sure…why not…recruit the best
I think the youth thing is overrated
But to be as young as we will be next year with less talent (except we must hope at 3-pointers) will be tough. How we can continue to make ourselves feel good over another elite eight meltdown (didn’t we perfect that under Tubby?) with 5 first round NBA picks is beyong me. Any objective measure of that talent suggests underachievement and disappointment. For goodness sakes, the team that beat us in the elite eight lost by 20 (again).
I don't know.
I think you can make an argument either way — against youth by saying “nobody has ever done it” and for youth by saying, “but that doesn’t mean it can’t be done.”
In the end, I think we need a better mix of youth and experience than we had this year.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Maybe not next year but will eventually get a better mix
A better mix of youth/experience will surely help. I just see this year as more of an anomaly. First, the talent in the previous year was significantly down so the new guys did not have much to overcome to get into the main rotation. Two, as good a recruiter as Cal is, he is not getting 4 one-and-done, NBA First Round picks each year (btw, I am not sold on Orton being a 1st round pick but that is another point for another day).
If Dodson and Orton return along with Miller and Liggons, you have a great nucleus to support the freshmen. If not, next year may be bumpy. We will eventually get that right mix. It won’t always be this way.
This year was an anomaly, as I've already said.
I agree that Orton is not likely to be a first round pick. It could happen — teams do take fliers — but the odds are not in favor of it, and the suggestion that his father made that Orton could go top five is too absurd to contemplate.
I do think Bledsoe has a shot at the late first round. In the end, I don’t expect either of them to come back. I don’t think Bledsoe likes school that much and I think Orton has issues with Coach Cal that have poisoned that well.
That’s just my opinion.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
One More Ingredent Into the Mix
Talent – Experience & Chemistry. That’s the makeup of a championship team!
okay, this is *another* thing I really reject : )
…the fan attitude (and I’m not saying you necessarily have it, Jack, but it seems to be going in that direction) of, I have invested my hopes in a bunch of 19 year old kids I’ve never met, and then feel personally affronted when they fail to produce sufficient glory for me to bask in the reflection of.
Any my other thing, regarding this: “How we can continue to make ourselves feel good over another elite eight meltdown…” What is the alternative?! Feeling impotent rage about something we have absolutely no control over?
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2010 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
yeah, exactly
I just don’t feel like the team OWES us anything.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2010 9:12 PM EDT up reply actions
just
their hearts but they gave us all they had this year. No one can every deny that and if they do…….let me at em!
As my dear Daddy used to say......
“If a frog had wings he wouldnt bump his butt when he hopped, and you couldnt have frog legs for supper”…..
If,If,IF……
1. Pilgrim worked at OK ST….good for him……Cal’s call…..Orton’s upside was far greater…..Advantage: Cal
2. You do not under any circumstances put a Kentucky Thoroughbred behind a plow…..
Advantage: Cal
3.There are always going to be uber-talented guys out there who think that free-throw shooting is not a big deal……Cousins hits 25% more of his FT’s and this isnt in the discussion Advantage: Push
4.Since we do not yet know who this class is…..That cannot be answered…..but I highly doubt that it is a problem that cannot be addressed.
5.Trend…..but too early a trend to yet know what the full effect of itself will be…….and who knows, maybe the NBA’s CBA comes to it’s senses sometime soon? Probably not, but we have only seen one year of this……show me 5 years where we have the most talented team in the country and we fall short…….then we can decide if it is a problem.
6.Who says they were less “happy”? Is this Jerry Tipton talking?? What you have right now is a group of kids who bought into this system all year long…..did what they were asked and fell just short of the mark….are they second guessing themselves??? maybe….but they are allowed to do that right now.Calipari told all 5 guys that he talked to to put their names in the draft…..he told Bledsoe, Patterson, and Orton, NOT to hire agents…..sounds to me like he knows better than we think how to handle this.
7.The APR, may take a hit, then again it may not…..but here we are again crying before we are hurt…..let’s see if it actually happens.
8.Dont call TO’s when the other team has to score…Schedule harder (which he already knew), beat and bang your high strung big men in practice until they learn to control their tempers, and no matter how much good you do, no matter how many people love you, and no matter how many people you help, there is still going to be some moron on TV or the internet telling people youre not what people think you are.
9.They better have learned to control their foul-mouthed, less than intelligent minority, who make dumb statements to players personally, because some nut with too much tech knowledge is going to get us either in hot water with the NCAA, or insult some kid into leaving…..and that, folks is just plain stupid.
10. Let them eat cake…….
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Questions and observations.
- Who are “they” in #9?
- What is #2 supposed to mean?
- What does “advantage” mean in this context? It makes no sense to me.
- For #6, did you follow my link? Maybe you should. Also, recall Calipari’s comments. If things were so rosy this year, why would anything need to be different?
- The last person that used “Let them eat cake” got up close and personal with a guillotine.
:-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
They are the fans......advantage means Calipari did the right thing....Cal didnt actually say things
werent “rosy” did he?
Marie was a bit overdramatic……but the situation fits it…..arent we jumping the gun just a bit here?? No one is yet gone….nothing has been hurt system wise yet, and we are 100000000000% better off than we were last year …..I just think this kind of thing is a bit counter productive when all of these kids have not yet completely decided what they are going to do…..I would think that the nutjob who sent the twit to Orton would be a wake up call for the internet world that we may need to just ease off the accelerator a bit until something actually happens
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
also.....2 means that you dont try to put a square peg into a round hole....
I dont want Shaq to try teaching a FT clinic……or in the DDMO
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
also, I listened to Cal's comments....
The only thing he eluded to was that some things would be “different” , I dont think he eluded to what they were…..
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Others have ...
… specifically, Orton’s father and some notable voices in the media.
You can’t discount that. You have to look at the reality that Orton seems to have been somewhat unhappy with his role on the team, at the very least. It also is beginning to look like he was less than happy with Coach Cal, and there is plenty of evidence to support that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Orton, or his father????
Daniel had one blow up…..Cuz did it as well, and Bledsoe…..one bad response doesnt constitute a problem to me….JMNSHO
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
No ...
… but you have to admit the combination of the blow up, his father’s remarks, and the comments of others close to the program constitute an awful lot of smoke. Plus, the manner of Orton’s leave-taking is very much additional fuel to that fire.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
maybe he's a surfer????
lol……I get it…..I just want the kid to have time to re-evaluate everything with no pressure….from ANYONE……
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
I'm curious Tru
You mention “smoke” here, but in the numerous discussions about Cal and his former schools it seems like you debunk the “smoke” references for actual proof.
I’m just curious what the difference would be.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 5, 2010 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions
hmmmm....
Good question right there; not that I’m disagreeing with Tru on this one.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
I do, usually.
It depends upon where the smoke is coming from, and how it squares from what I’m hearing elsewhere.
I could always be wrong. But I have fairly high confidence in this particular scenario. Your mileage may vary.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
ALRIGHT!!!!!!!!
DAMN. I beginning to like you more all the time~
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
Why is it jumping the gun ...
… to examine these sorts of possibilities. If this is jumping the gun, every time we speculate about where the ‘Cats might be in March, or whatever, is also. We surely don’t have to wait for all the chips to fall to try to make sense of most of what went on this year. There is nothing counterproductive about it. That’s what we do here.
Even if Orton and Bledsoe do come back, next year’s team will have even less experience than this year’s team. That is a fact. It also is becoming clear that Orton was less than happy at Kentucky this year, which is a bit of a revelation to me.
They guy who blasted Orton was a jerk, no doubt.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
In this case, I think making comments about players who may still be in the process of decided whether
or not to stay might be a bit premature…
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Why?
I don’t get that at all.
There’s no reason to hunker down and cross our fingers. Good grief, this is what fans do.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
no, thats not what I mean, I mean that fans just like that trainwreck of a poster,
could sway a kid that is considering returning into leaving anyway, because they dont feel like they are appreciated……
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Oh, yeah.
That guy. Well, he is a douche, but we unfortunately seem to have more than our share of them.
As I said, I wonder how he likes having his name said in vain all over the Big Blue Nation. I’ll bet even his friends are forgetting his phone number right about now … :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Look, I dont think there is anyone here who doesnt believe that Daniel could benefit from another year here
however, having said that, If the kid can get into the first round, then, by all means go for it…..but just to have people out there randomly saying, goodbye and good riddance doesnt do anything but enflame the situation, whatever it may be…..
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
I thought you were talking about something else.
See just above.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Yea, but recruiting is more than just fantasy basketball.
You need to look at personalities, fit, team, etc. Maybe Orton had more upside potential, but I think in retrospect it’s fair to say that Pilgrim would have brought more maturity which would have paid off.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I was just typing something similar
We have no idea if The Beast would have handled coming off the bench any better than Orton.
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel
is just a freight train coming your way.
Yes, he did.
I doubt that would have been a problem. There may have been others, though.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
You don't.
Which is why I wrote ‘…it’s fair to say’’’, instead of using words such as sure, absoulely sure, without a doubt.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
maybe so, but in this case, I think when the call was made for Pilgrim to stay or go
none of that was even part of the consideration…..I think it was strictly about whether or not Pilgrim was the guy Cal wanted, and obviously, he was not
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Pilgrim could have stayed.
I think Cal pushed him away b/c he was hoping X would come. We had an extra scholarship as it was, which Krebs was later given.
Well ...
… my recollection is that X made his commitment long before Pilgrim was advised to look elsewhere.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I think that was the "first" time Tru......didnt he commit, the de-commit, then re-commit???
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Nah.
He DC’d from Memphis, committed to Kansas, and then after that Pilgrim was advised to look elsewhere.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
That was actually my thinking as well.
Pilgrim has been in D1 for three years (counting his year in residence here at UK).
On the flip side of this, Cal could have kept him and not offered Krebs the scholarship. So perhaps there were chemistry issues there that could not be resolved. I don’t know that, though, so I just asked the question in a neutral way.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Then maybe it was held for Meeks.
The scholarship was held for someone that didn’t come (or come back). I was thinking it was X, but it might have been Meeks. I remember people saying since that someone isn’t coming to UK, can we get Pilgrim to come back.
I don't think so.
He didn’t want Pilgrim, for whatever reason. I’m reasonably certain of that, based on the timing. Meeks wasn’t coming back, and that was known long before Pilgrim was encouraged to leave.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Maybe it was just a mistake.
He’s not perfect. He’s not perfect. He’s not perfect.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Careful there...
them’s fightin’ words.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
yet somehow,
when Hoze says them, I’m not the least bit offended? It’s all about the delivery and building a rapport, IMO. : )
Possibly.
In hindsight, maybe. I’m sure it seemed like a good idea at the time.
But it’s such a close call, it’s hard to call it a “mistake.” There is no doubt Orton made a terrific contribution, and it could be convincingly argued that it was the right call.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Okay. I am all 'ears'.
You are welcomed to give it your best shot.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 5, 2010 4:48 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Orton played well.
Statistically, per minute played, as well or better than Pilgrim.
Ipso facto.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Don't forget, age does not equal experience or maturity.
Pilgrim had never played for Kentucky nor had he ever been in the NCAA. His experience was all small conference.
Fair point.
But I look at statistics as part of the equation, not an absolute. One’s statistics will be affected by a multiple of factors such competition, team mates, etc.
Since Edgar Sosa scored .48 pts/min compared to John Wall’s .47 pts/min, I guess in your world that makes Edgar the better player.
It’s always easier to lean on statistical argument if it goes your way. :-)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I'm getting...
…into this Pilgrim conversation a little late, and I don’t really follow OSU basketball all that closely, but I do know that Pilgrim was suspended by Ford for at least one game this year. I’m not totally sure of the reason, but maybe the reason has something to do with the chemistry issues that you alluded to, and Coach Cal was aware of them?
I’m not one to look back, I’m fine with the way it worked out, and have never really thought much about Pilgrim in a UK uniform.
I agree with you there
I never thought it was a mistake. He didn’t even start at OSU.
BUT, had you told me we would lose all but 4 players after this year, I might have had a different attitude.
Remember also, Pilgrim
almost got into a fight with his own teammate (Marshall Moses, I think) during a game against Texas this season.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2010 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions
You think I don't realize that?
Cal has stated more than once that the fault for mistakes lies with him, I just havent seen the “mistake” concerning Orton……Pilgrim was an unproven commodity…..
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
I'm glad we had Daniel and hope he will feel like coming back
If his draft hopes don’t pan out, a la Randolph Morris. Lots of nasty things have been said about him however on certain other message boards than this one. In this regard, ABC’s comment # 9 is right on.
I didn’t get to see enough of Pilgrim to form an impression of him, but I thought very highly of Daniel’s potential and his defensive play this year. Towards the end of the year, I started looking forward to next season and he was always right there in it, with Liggins, Miller, Dodson and possibly Bledsoe or at least another speedy guard. I figured we’d see the DDMO a good deal more next year, and we probably will for sure now.
Practicing those free throws a bit more wouldn’t hurt, would it? Throwing a bouce pass now and again when confronted with a zone defense wouldnt be the worse thing either. We sure seemed to spend an inordinate amount of time against West Va just lobbing the ball over their long guys up top and on the wings…..
Lastly, I doubt we’ll ever have another year where 5 guys try their luck in the draft at the same time.
also glad we had DO...
1. for me is for Cal to con’t to make cohesiveness paramount, 2. of course is to con’t to feed the Cats with the upper TALENT, and 3. is freethrows (get the word FREE, please), now, ABC, i would like to know what the reference to number 9 above is all about…please share …
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please."...Mark Twain.
Look at the front page of Card Chronicle......they are having a field day with it.....
www.kentuckysportsradio.com has it…..it’s a crying shame we have people with that little sense and that much technology…..
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Indeed.
Sad. But how would you like to be that guy, and have your name besmirched all over the Internet.
I hope he enjoys his 15 minutes of fame. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I doubt that he was smart enough to put someone else's pic on his posts, but if I were him
I would consider moving to Florida…….then again….maybe he already lives there…..????…..could be a plant?
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Card Chronicle
They really seem to obsess about UK over there. I swear all season long they have had stories and fanposts about UK – I especially loved the “Ding Dong The Witch Is Dead” fanpost celebrating our loss in the Elite 8.
For people that are so “not worried about UK”, unimpressed (dont care about us, whatever else they say over and over and over) they sure seem to be…well “sweating” us a little bit.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 5, 2010 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
They do. It’s okay, though, being hated enough for the Card fans to obsess over is a badge of honor.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
they are still trying to figure out why we hired Calipari.....lol
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
That is all they've got
I take it as a compliment
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel
is just a freight train coming your way.
I thought that's what you wanted. :)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Maybe....
…there really isn’t a Mark Hamilton. Maybe it was all made up. Just maybe.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Who is Mark Hamilton?
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Thanks ABC
I read it but didn’t even notice his name.
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
A poor slob who dissed Orton (while drunk, by his own admission) and got posted on KSR
http://kentuckysportsradio.com/?p=48848
read the comments. I found this almost surreal
No matter where you're at, there you are
We can only hope
Although, a lot of crap like this is happening now where fans of other teams are spouting off like they are UK fans. Not saying this is the case in this particular situation, but it has been happening.
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel
is just a freight train coming your way.
Oh yeah....
there are lots of Mark Hamiltons…..
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
but arent most of them Vol fans???
just checking…….I seem to remember a video of a guy whizzing on a Lane Kiffin shirt and then setting it on fire?? Or was it the other way around
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Yeah, the Vols handled that Kiffin situation with all class......
/sarcasm
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel
is just a freight train coming your way.
I think that's what she meant, guys : )
You know, that there are plenty of Mark Hamiltons out there, rooting in their embarrassing moronic way, for teams all across the country.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2010 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah....
and thanks for saying so. Just let the boys have their fun, though.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
You know boys.
They can be slow ; )
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2010 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Glad to see so many sensible comments
Agree what many are saying here. I am disappointed the season ended a bit earlier than I was hoping, but what a great year. What was frustrating with the end of the Tubby years and both BCG years was not having an occasional bad season, but never being in the mix with the top teams on a consistent basis. We couldn’t get to the second weekend of the tournament let alone an Elite Eight.
Like the Kentucky Girls said on the first comments, lots of variables to advance in a one-and-done tournament. To make FFs and win championship, you have to regularly be in the mix as one of the top teams. Some breaks go against you, some for you, and over time they even out, but you have to be in position to take advantage of the good luck.
WV played a great game, and they are a tough match-up for UK. Ironically, I think UK matches up very well with Duke but WV doesn’t. Look what happened this weekend. What if WV was the #2 in Duke’s bracket. Things might have been different. Just worked out this way this year.
Even more important than a single FF year or championship banner is the program is going in the right direction in terms of talent and quality of players. In the long run, that is what we need. Great to be a Cat fan these days.
State of the Commonwealths Team
Sorry to see Pilgrim leave but glad Daniel came and played, wish he would return but I wouldn’t turn down the big bucks for doing something I love and neither should he.
as far as starting over, that is the only option we have, live with it and get better, Coach Cal had very few options coming in, he recruited a monster class and took 3 starting freshmen to the Elite 8, this totally exceeded my expectations. Loved every minute of it
Recruit the best, and we will have great exciting teams. add some really good 3 to 4 year players and that would be the recipe for success.
The unhappy player stuff could just be internet garbage, the team looked like they were having fun and played that way. Just cause they looked a little rattled during the WV game is no reason to throw the team under the bus.
Bottom line, this was a great UK team and a great bunch of players to watch. You caint rebuild the Rome Empire in a day, (came darn close) . Let Coach Cal and the players play, we are here to watch and cheer GO BIG BLUE!
I think we did great this year.
Especially for as young as we were.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
well said
UK will eventually have more than one, 3 or 4 year player that can contribute. This year was the beginning. Cal didn’t have those guys this year because , well, quite frankly he inherited an NIT team that didn’t get far in that tournament. Most agree you need veterans to get to the final game. That will come, with UK.
Let’s face it,
1. we are a victim of our own success this year
2. the “looming” NBA lockout may be adding to the exodus
3. Orton did not seem happy with UK.
No matter where you're at, there you are
Folks!
It looks like we are all suffering from 20-20 hindsite! After the season we find that our team was/is not perfect. They didn’t all ways like each other or the coach. We find other people (daddies) having influence both on and off the court. Well so what is new. Been going on since the beginning of time. We will play again next year!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
20-20 hindsight ...
… is what being a fan is all about! If you can’t obsess over every little thing, what good is a blog? :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Now that we are in the offseason
what are we supposed to do?
First few months, speculate about who is leaving, staying and what went wrong.
Next few months, speculate about recruiting for next 3 years and the starting lineup for next year.
Finally, criticize every move and missed layup from the first blue white game onward.
we have to help Paris with the football team Jack......c'mon....
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
and a new coach.....and a new AD....and a blue football field that we can play Boise state on.....
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Apr 5, 2010 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Haha!
Love it!
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 5, 2010 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions
HEY!
SEE, see, see, you guys are making fun of me!
Who do I protest to?
Is the commissioner here?
Folks, we’ve got the mastermind of the 90th something offense this past year and the 109th offense the year before now steering the ship.
How can we not be excited? We are going to improve our passing game. Yep, It going to be better.
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
I'm sorry Paris....couldnt resist......I think we will be fine, but who knows???
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
I think the football team is in fine shape. New coach, well, sort of, new members to the staff. same schedule, new attitude, new enthusium, hew grasee, new, well whatever.
Its going to be a whole different ball game.
Well, aint it?
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
Tru, remember those words.
THEY will come back to haunt!!
(a real big smile)
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
YOU
are against the “what ifs”? Mr. Conspiracy theory himself
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 5, 2010 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions
hey, she backhanded you above there first!!!!!.....;-p.....lol
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
I did not!!
I was really just wondering. Gosh ABC – there you go with the conspiracy stuff again! ;)
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 5, 2010 12:55 PM EDT up reply actions
youre on a roll....go with it!!.....lol.....make him squirm.....no one else can.....lol...
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
hehehe......well, in this case........I just dont see the "smoke" (as you referenced above)the same way as Tru.....
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Blindness ...
… is an excuse, I suppose. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I know idiots who have degrees in "What Ifffing"......never seem to accomplish anything
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Heh. Just so.
If “practicality” were the standard, God knows I would not be doing it. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
ABC
The only difference in this year and most of the last 60(except for a few Nc’s) is the internet lets us talk instead of at work and at the country store.
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
did it at the barber shop today....lol......
with the exception of having to listen to a few of the “cant satisfy em with anything crowd”…..was a pretty good morning at the pole
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Ahhhhhhh....I remember when I had to go to the barber. Those were the days. ;)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I go for the coffee.....lol.....I have to take it myself, but that's why I go.....lol
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Amen
My barber is BIG fan too!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Some other thoughts
I wonder if Bledsoe and Orton have thought about what a huge difference being early and late in the draft would mean in terms of dollars. Derrick Rose makes 2.5 times as much as Rajon Rondo, but has one-third as much time in the league. No, I am not saying Rondo is as good, but he is better than most. Given the weaker nature of the overall incoming class of freshmen, both could easily be lottery picks next year and more than make up the difference in salary.
Uk is on the sidelines because they shot 4 for 32 from 3. Now, I am sure that WVA would like to argue that it was the defense, but UK missed wide open shot after wide open shot. Look how easily Duke dismantled them? You cannot take 32 shots and make 4 from any distance and expect to win, and if they made just 25% of the ones they took, we win by 6 and are not having this discussion right now. I expect Calipari teams to stink from the line, but his Memphis teams could hit the 3.
Your argument is weakened by the CBA issue.
Next year, the salaries are likely lower due to the new CBA, or worse, there is no salary due to a lock out.
You are correct.
I actually had not thought about that.
Rose vs Rondo
I’d take Rondo.
He certainly outplayed Rose in the playoffs head to head last year.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
Yeah
And the thing is that he made about 2 mill this year compared to Rose at 5 mill. Jack (above) makes a good point though that may affect a lot of young players.
Dear Butler,
Please beat Duke.
That is all.
Thanks.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 5, 2010 4:11 PM EDT reply actions
::sigh::
I have such a bad feeling about this.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 5, 2010 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions
Ahhhh. Another Duke fan.
To like Duke is to like anchovies on a pizza, or….well, I can’t think of even a dumb reason to like them.
The reality is that Butler should not beat Duke, but then that could be argued about KState as well.
I especially liked the way Duke was the weakest 1 seed this year and was placed in the weakest region.
Cal calls Duke if they play as they did against WVA.....
they play down to Butler, Butler has a chance with a last second shot…..FWIW
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Can Anomaly Be A Cliche?
Well by definition: any occurrence or object that is strange, unusual, or unique, probably not but the number of times (personally contributed greatly, I did) posted in last week or so on ASoB moves it near that status of banality. Nevertheless one cannot render the necessary blue-hued introspection without considering the altogether anomalous nature of UK BB 2009-10. Attempt to do so and the discussion is constructed on a faulty base. So setting aside or at least agreeing that we’re not apt to witness such a conflation of circumstances again let’s look at some of the other elements worth pondering:
1) Talent and experience: To be precise what is ideally required is talent and talented experience. With 3 seniors this year UK had experience, problem was none of the 3 were talented enough to significantly contribute. Same could be said of Harrellson (remember his best offer out of high school was Western Illinois). Suppose Calipari had chosen to keep Pilgrim and Galloway and was able to convince Porter to play — the experience level would have been substantially higher yet talent level would have been significantly diminished. Fact is previous two coaches left the talent cupboard bare and Calipari faced a virtual Hobson’s choice (an anomaly for UK BB, if you will).
2) As to the future, the late Stephen Jay Gould stated it well:
"The invalid assumption that correlation implies cause is probably among the two or three most serious and common errors of human reasoning."And that is particularly true when the assumption is based on — ah, that word again — an anomaly. To attempt an inferential assessment of the future of UK BB based on the last year is fallacious at best and absurd at worst.
3) Deliberations on other more categorical items need not require such assumptions but yet are not obvious in their conclusions: Is FT shooting doomed to insufficiency? History is not promising. Will Calipari learn from this season and circumstances? If “Bounce Back” is factual the answer would seem to be, yes, likely. As far as we of the BBN are concerned I doubt that we have changed all that much: Follow with a single-mindedness that flies in the face of reason, take the term critical love to new extremes, stratospherically soar with victories and plummet to nether worlds with defeats, lash out at alien criticism and question loyalties of doubters though BBN citizens — all in all we’ll remain the fanatics we’ve always been.
"Perhaps the fact that we have seen millions voting themselves into complete dependence on a tyrant has made our generation understand that to choose one's government is not necessarily to secure freedom" - Hayek
That would be the "post hoc" fallacy, right?
Or more properly, “post hoc, ergo propter hoc” (sp?) Roughly translated: after that, therefore because of that. In the words of my cousin Ronnie, “It don’t mean s___!”
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
I'll see the results
on here later. I refuse to watch Dook!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
35 W
One other team (Duke) can get to 35 W level.
One other UK team (1948) exceeded it with 36 W.
2010 was a remarkable season. UK only had 40 W COMBINED the prior 2 seasons.
Great post-season questions!
1. I have no idea
2. Don’t know
[darn…. off to kind of a slow start here]
3. It needs to be worked on and improved. I don’t think it is just coincidental.
4. All the way back to the Elite 8? That is going to be really tough, and will rely in large measure on the draw. The draw is such a huge factor, and while I wouldn’t go as far as to call the seedings random, they are very difficult to predict. With a favorable draw, a run is possible, but we won’t know until next year’s Selection Sunday.
5. Yes. The best players possible. Always. Although I do think it might be a good idea to reserve one spot every 2 years specifically set aside to go after a sharpshooter like a Ali Farokhmanesh. Even if it doesn’t always pan out, I would applaud the attempt to set aside one specialized spot for a sharpshooter. And those guys will probably have 4 years apiece to find their range.
6. Yes, I think it is possible. Each group will have its own unique dynamics.
7. Don’t know.
8. Don’t know.
9. Cheering for a competitive team is a lot of fun again. Losing in the Elite 8 isn’t.
10. I would still rather be us than them.
11. I am really glad I took the time to appreciate having John Wall on our team while he was here. Every game. I will miss having so many of the other guys on the team, as well.
-- Tim . http://HomeSalesLexington.com/barn
Okay,
1. I don’t know
2. I don’t care
3. Not likely unless some practice time is spent practicing FTs under pressure.
4. Elite Eight will be easier than 35-3.
5. Depends on how talented and what kind of person they are, too.
6. Appearances may be deceiving, as to what “Daddy” says. I didn’t see many problems during the year, only after, and that maybe to boost junior’s draft status.
7. We don’t know yet.
8. Hope he learned to focus some on FT shooting, though I have some doubts.
9. Nothing, we’re too rabid to learn much. All that foaming at the mouth, and everything.
10. Almost is the key word here. Nobody is hated as much as Dook. This is one race I’m glad to be second in. Did I mention we’re also second in NCs? I don’t like that too much, but it’s better than being where Dook is.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
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