Kentucky Basketball: Should John Calipari Adjust His Thinking?
by Glenn Logan on Apr 2, 2010 9:37 AM EDT
in Commentary
Email
PrintWe have seen it all over the Internet -- how Kentucky's young and extremely talented team was not enough to get to the Final Four, and the conclusion that it is the wrong way to build a college basketball team. But is it? Let's review.
Kentucky's problem over the last four years or so, if you ask most UK fans, was a dearth of talent, particularly at the lead guard position, and a lack of quality depth. UK has usually had good talent on its starting lineup (Patrick Patterson, Jodie Meeks, Joe Crawford, Ramel Bradley and Randolph Morris), but has lacked the kind of quality depth that leads to championships.
John Calipari addressed every single one of these shortcomings this year. The 2009-10 version of the Wildcats had NBA lottery picks at three positions on the court and future pros at four positions. Off the bench, it had a future pro (and possibly even a future lottery) pick as well as some solid role players. This team won 35 of 38 games and reached the Elite Eight.
But clearly, expectations based on the above paragraph ought to be a Final Four at least. Or should it? Well, if you don't know the relative youth of the players in question, you might automatically say, "Sure, we should expect more." But as I have maintained all season long right up until the blistering 3-game tournament run that ended in the Elite Eight, I cannot remember a time when a team this young got farther other than the famous Fab Five of Michigan.
Every watcher of college basketball will tell you that it is important to have at least a couple of future, if not present, first-rounders on your team if you expect to be playing on the last weekend of the season. With the possible exception of Butler, who is the anomaly in this year's tournament, you have that on virtually every Final Four team. But most of these players are not suiting up as freshmen, but as sophomores, juniors and seniors.
Which brings us back to the question -- did Kentucky's youth preclude them from a championship, and if so, what should Calipari do about it?
I think the answer to the first part of the question is a qualified "yes." Clearly, the young Wildcats lost their composure a bit against the West Virginia Mountaineers when they had a lid on the basket (which was for most of the game), and that negatively affected both their body language and their concentration on defense. West Virginia uncharacteristically making challenged 3-point shots only added to the young Wildcats' frustration, which boiled over midway through the second half when they repeatedly allowed WVU players to drive in for unopposed layups.
Which brings us to the second part of the question -- what, if anything, should Calipari do about it?
In the first place, Calipari should not stop recruiting talented players, even the most talented players, unless they don't fit UK's system or are a bad risk for some personal reason. You'll notice Coach Cal did not recruit guys like Lance Stephenson and Renardo Sydney, presumably for good reasons. This is not to cast aspersions on these two young men -- Stephenson has done very well at Cincinnati this year and Sydney figures to be a good player if he ever suits up in college.
But it is clear that Calipari doesn't just recruit everybody, and this year's crop of recruits Coach Cal hopes to convince to come to UK include Brandon Knight (an "A" student), Josh Selby, Terrence Jones, C.J. Leslie and Doron Lamb. The upside to this batch versus last years is that none of them looks like a sure-fire lottery pick next year, although Brandon Knight and Josh Selby are certainly capable of getting there.
To me, it doesn't look like Calipari has been dissuaded in any way from going after top talent despite the possibility of a mass exodus this year. On the other hand, the lessons from this year's class will not show up in recruiting for at least one more year, since it is pretty much too late to implement them as far as recruiting is concerned at this point in the process.
I am far from convinced that Calipari should change his philosophy. Perhaps a tweak or two would be in order, but I don't think that involves eschewing a one-and-done if he can get him. After all, Harrison Barnes, arguably the closest this class has to a true one-and-done, is playing for Roy Williams' North Carolina Tar Heels next year. Barnes is also an outstanding student, so it will be interesting to see what happens if UK gets Knight at the end of next year as far as who turns pro and who does not.
In the final analysis, I do think Kentucky needs more experience than they had this year to succeed, and I believe Calipari understands this as well. The 2009 class was unusually skilled, and John Wall is a unique, once-every-ten-year talent in the mold of LeBron James or Kobe Bryant. But no matter who comes this year to Kentucky, they will not have anywhere near the celebrity of John Wall, or even DeMarcus Cousins. UK's recruiting class, even if it winds up the best in the nation, will look ordinary by 2009 standards.
So I guess my conclusion is that what we saw this year was an anomaly, most likely, and not something routine. Kentucky will not likely be as good in 2010-11 unless Wall, Cousins or Patterson makes an unexpected return. Eric Bledsoe and Daniel Orton's return would make another Elite Eight appearance more likely, but my gut tells me that UK is, barring a Duke-like draw in the tournament, Kentucky will have to wait a couple of years before their next appearance in the Final Four. The days of seeing a mass early exit from the Wildcats are likely to be more over than not.
We need to see more experience at Kentucky, and I believe we will going forward. Keep in mind, this is the very first year Coach Cal has been at UK, and what promise he showed us!
211 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
Yes, 2010 is an anomaly
And a major contributing factor is the likelihood of labour strife between the NBA and its players’ union in 2011. Nobody knows what the 2011 draft will look like (or if there will even be one), so everyone with even a slight chance of being drafted will try to get into this one.
conversely
players in the 2011 recruiting class who maybe on-and-dones may have to stay 2 years based on the lockout. so, it is very possible that guys like Knight, Jones, Leslie, and Kanter could be at UK for two season simply because they have nowhere else to play otherwise.
i've been waiting for this moment all my life...but it's not quite right.
Indeed
Also remember that the whole one-and-done phenomenon is a consequence of the CBA (collective bargaining agreement between the NBA and players’ union). It could change or go away entirely. The important point is that no conclusions should be drawn based upon the 2009 class because 2010 and 2011 are going to be entirely different as a consequence of the CBA uncertainty. And anyone who claims they can predict what the landscape beyond that will look like is lying to you.
Anomoly, yes... but
Granted 2010 was a strange year… and, anybody with the talent should be taking a run at the NBA this year, even w/o an agent… the uncertainty is enormous.. but, No one should be questioning whether a 1 and done is the right way to go.. It would absolutely be no anomoly if a 3 here and there would have fallen, or not fallen for the opponent, and we would be staring down the barrel of 40 and 0!!! This team came within a (fill in the blank) of being the greatest college basketball team EVER!!! With 3 FR, 1 Soph and 1 JR…. ah heck, lets just blame it on obama calling b4 usc game, the color orange and shoot and holler sh… bank shot or what ever.. what was really great, we were 35 n 3 with a chance to win every game and almost did.. After what we have been thru the last 5 or 6 years it would not be an anomoly.. It would be EARNED!
trail, I agree with you
A 3 or two either way and we’re not having this conversation.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 2, 2010 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Changing the thought process
I don’t think its necessarily the right move. Remember, when this class was signed; John Wall was the only surefire one and done player. People said Cousins needed one more year and most thought Orton and Bledsoe would be here for at least three years.
You can’t predict how success will turn out. Given the option of going on one date with the prom queen or never having dated her at all… most of us guys would have taken the date.
I just know that for the last 10 years, most fans major knock on Kentucky has been that we weren’t a destination for the best of the best. Its the height of hypocrisy for us to deplore it now.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Apr 2, 2010 10:23 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
Also, I loved “[g]iven the option of going on one date with the prom queen or never having dated her at all … most of us guys would have taken the date.”
Never truer words spoken.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.
I would like to +1 this:
“I just know that for the last 10 years, most fans major knock on Kentucky has been that we weren’t a destination for the best of the best. Its the height of hypocrisy for us to deplore it now.”
Yes, thank you!
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 2, 2010 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
I think
we keep chasing our tails on this one. I for one am not arguing that we should keep away from the John Walls of the basketball world. Far from it. My whole thing is……..Calipari has got to get some kids to stay. That is just as important a coaching job as during the season.
Memphis
This season is clearly an anomaly. In his entire time at Memphis Cal had four one in done players in nine or ten years. In his first year at Kentucky it’s possible he could double that number. That’s not just an anomaly that’s historic. It’s clear that will not be the norm. Once Cal has been here two or three more years I think you will see tough veteran teams with possibly one or two one and dones sprinkled in provided the NBA CBA remains unchanged, which is very unlikely
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Hope
and think that your right……I and think Calipari feels that way too but I am just not seeing that with my Kentcuky bretheren.
Did you stitch the name on the front of John Wall's jersey?
kidding ’-)
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
I think davw is exactly right.
I wouldn’t use this year as the measuring stick as far as players leaving and such. A davw mentioned, and I totally agree, I don’t see this year being the norm going forward and I wouldn’t panic just yet.
When you combine Coach’s first year, the fact that this particular class was way beyond talented and the chances of us seeing the likes of them again are pretty slim, and then throw in the fact that some of our young kids are rushing to declare for the draft when normally there would be no question about them staying another year in college simply because the future of the NBA is uncertain, well, all those things in succession are just not going to happen every year.
Like davw, due to Coach Cal’s history of what has made up his prior teams, I envision of good mix of the remarkably talented players combined with some experienced ones, as well, in order to form the makeup of our teams going forward (starting the year after next, of course) and I do think that Coach will “build a program” as you said earlier, tenken. Don’t panic just yet. : )
Absolutely right chirop
And davw above too – it’s important to maintain some perspective on this year.
I would say it’s unheard of for a team to go through this kind of unexpected roster turnover, but maybe there’s a team out there that I’m not thinking of. And when I say “unexpected” I mean at the beginning of the season. UNC went through a roster overhaul last season to this one, but everyone knew that was going to happen before last season even started. What’s happening to UK right now is a surprise to everyone.
It’s not going to happen again and in the short term it probably hurts UK over the first 3 years or so of Calipari’s tenure because while this year was fantastic, the next two years could be more of a Sweet-16-as-the-upshot type seasons because of the lack of returning experience. That will sort itself out though.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Looking at it from the most general perspective...
…the only team led by a “one & done” to win it all was Syracuse with Carmelo Anthony.
And He Was The Only 1 & Done On That Team
Most of the rest of the ’Cuse players were pretty experienced guys.
UK in 1996 and 1998 had experienced players, too.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 2, 2010 1:37 PM EDT up reply actions
Honestly...
I really felt like this season should have ended at nothing short of a Final Four (an additional banner to hang in the rafters at Rupp). As we all know, our ‘Cats fell a game short of that accomplishment. In retrospect, however, it is clearly a travesty to say that the season (as a whole) was a “disappointment.” UK won 35/38 games and were one late-game burst deficient of advancing to the final weekend in March. Sure, the talent was evident; but who would have thought this team would meld into the machine that it eventually became and win this many games? I’ll be honest—I sure didn’t.
It certainly is upsetting that so many players are planning on leaving. But we, the spectators, have no part in the making of that decision. Fortunately, we have an amazing coach (who knows a thing of two about recruiting, might I add), and I trust he will reload his arsenal before next season begins.
I look at it this way.
I believe this team had enough talent to win it all this year. They didn’t but I have seen a lot of teams that had enought talent to win it all that didn’t as well. One bad game in the tournament and you’re out. I would have trouble thinking of any teams UK has had in the last 10 years that even had a fighting chance to win the NCAA tournament besides this one. In addition I certainly enjoyed to ride this year watching this talented team go for 30plus wins and only 3 losses. It was like reading a good book. It isn’t just the end of the book that makes it enjoyable but the journey along the way.
It's more like reading a ggod book...
….and when nearing the end you’ve found that someone had ripped out the last 20 pages.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 12:40 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yeah, it was like the season was aborted
Ring any bells?
Anybody wanna buy a pair of tickets to the final game?
Yea, Ding-Dong, like last year.
I already wrote how much it sucked witnessing it in person. Are you a slow reader, or what?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 6:42 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
No way Hognose
There weren’t any pages ripped out. The book just didn’t have the ending I expected, but like I said I still enjoyed reading it. I think most UK fans will agree with me in saying they enjoyed watching the cats play this season. Just watching some of the things Mr. Wall can do with a basketball in itself made this season memorable and as I said 35-3 isn’t too shabby a season for any team.
We will be very young again this next year, but so will some other teams.
We are at the leading edge of something here that if not corrected either by the NBA and their CBA, or some random NCAA legislation is going to change the game forever at the college AND pro levels.
Kentucky has always gotten bright talent, but not in truckloads. Along comes JC, and the Pied Piper has brought the droves with him. He is so good at what he does, EVERY kid is at least going to think about playing for Kentucky. Will they all be one and dones??? No. But they will probably have shorter times here than in the past. Calipari can get the top talent here, we have all seen that. If nothing is done to change this situation between the NBA and the NCAA….it will continue to grow, not shrink away.
Having said that, Calipari changes nothing. We were 18 points away from a perfect season folks. A lot of things lined up for us, but a lot of things lined up against us as well. Kansas had a leaderehip filled team this year, and they didnt go as far as we did. Parity is here, and Calipari is our best weapon against that.
What hurt us more than anything, was the fact that our Seniors and Juniors this year were not of upper eschelon quality. Other than Patterson, we had no upperclassman leadership on the whole squad. We had no choice but to have inexperienced freshmen this year, and may have to deal with that for a couple more years, as players come in that are of better caliber. Jon Hood as a Junior or Senior is going to be one hot ticket….you can see it in him, if he will hustle on defense. Liggins is going to be far superior next year, even Jorts should take a step up……let’s allow the man to do what he came here to do, and finish the job he started his way before we start panicking about how young we were this year.
Questions are inevitably going to come up about everything that Cal does, if for no other reason than this is Kentucky. But look around us folks, UCONN sat at home this year, UNC had quite a bit of upperclassmen, and they sat too. Cal said we were now “Darth Vader” to the rest of college basketball……hehehe…..maybe we all need to start having a little more faith in “The Force”……
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
UK was also 18 points from losing another 9 games or so.
I still believe that the real Achilles heel this year was the really weak SOS (wasn’t it like in the mid-60’s?).
A weak schedule limits a coach to teach a young team some ‘lessons’. If you listened close to Cal’s comments earlier in the year he was warning everyone that the team’s record when undefeated was something more like 9-7. I say it hurt their development when dodging a few losses. It hurt Cal’s opportunity to teach.
After the WVU game he was videotaped lamenting that his team either didn’t listen or couldn’t execute going underneath all the high post picks that resulted in easy lay-ups. He probably didn’t have the opportunity to have them ‘abused’ like thi in a regular game and then use it as a teaching experience.
Lastly, one big risk to this current recruiting strategy is it puts the program and Cal under tremendous recruiting pressure year after year. If you have a bad year recruiting, you really are exposed that season. I’m telling you that Cal is a good recruiter but there are also equals. To expect him to repeat every year is expecting too much.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 12:56 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think that's why he doesnt have bad recruiting years, but the comment is duly noted.....
And Cal himself said the schedule wouldnt look like this anymore….but truly, how many years is playing UNC and UCONN a drain on your RPI???
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Yea, I agree entirely that it wasn't UK's fault they had a weak SOS.
It was unfortunate. Although you can thank me for the relative positive contribution from my Cards (owww, I just pulled a muscle). ;)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 4, 2010 12:02 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
hehehe.....hurts dont it??
I am kind of the mind he will put no less than 5 top 20 programs on the schedule every year…..
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
If the NCAA goes to 96 teams...
It will be harder to win the NC. I say this because there will be more of the random upsets, no matter how good your team is. Parity, one-and-done, luck, good and bad will all factor in to the equation. More times than not the best team, or teams don’t even make it to the final four. This year is another example. You could re-play the tournament the same way multiple times and always have different result. There are just too many variables to predict the outcome. Having said that, I’ll take the most talented team to win the greatest amount of games. I think this is, and will continue to be Cal’s thought process on recrutment.
pay the players or expand to "best of 3"
there is only one reason to expand to 96 teams: money. Advertising dollars. So if the NCAA is going to be making more money off the tournament, I say it’s time to start paying the players. After all, the NCAA is making butt loads of cash, and the players are the ones who are trying to keep their grades up, and play athletics at the same time. I say, if the NCAA is that greedy, than the players should become greedy as well.
Ether that, or keep the tournament at 64 teams (yes I said 64, not that ridiculous 65) and turn the Final Four into a best-of-three series.
Were we young? Sure
But I was very impressed with the maturity of our young’uns both on and off the court.
35-3 !! That is only 3 losses, 3333333 !! That looks pretty to me. Remember UK2K ? First !! And of course, last but not least…..FUN !!
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Raise or lower the age limit
If you want to stop one-and-dones, either raise the age limit to 21 or lower it to 18. Why lower it? Because if players are using colleges as just a “proving ground” for the NBA, then fine, let them go, get them out of the way. That way the only players that are left are players who actually WANT to play for a school, rather than HAVE to play in college until they turn a certain age.
I love the group of guys we had this year. But it is a little sickening to think every single year there will be a mass exodus from the esteemed Kentucky basketball program for the NBA.
"The three point line should be moved back. It shouldn't be the same in Division I as it is for eighth-grade girls."
The problem is that the NBA loves the rule the way it is.....
the only way it will be combatted is for the NCAA to institute a 2 yr minimum for all players attending college and playing collegiate athletics, and impose huge penalties for the schools when the player does not complete that 2 yr committment. Make them earn an Associates degree or something like that…..
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
With regards to the 2-yr rule possibility...
I think it needs to come from the NBA, not the NCAA. If a player signs a 2-yr commitment to play college ball, and then leaves after his freshman year to go pro, why should the school be punished? And what good does it do to do so? Ensure that colleges only recruit players who aren’t good enough to go pro, and water down the college talent even further?
If there is a way to hold the player or the NBA accountable, then I’m all for rules that NCAA might try to impose. But if an entire school’s program is held hostage to the whims of a 19-year-old who is chasing the NBA’s millions, I say leave the system the way it is.
You can put it on the board....YES.
I would love to see the NBA do it, but I dont think there is any way for that to happen
Holding the school accountable means they wont recruit the kids unless they know they will get 2 years out of them. It would be a de facto forced 20 yr old rule…..the BEST way for this to be handled would be for the NBA and NCAA to get together and work on this, but I dont see that happening either. Personally I think the NBA’s rule is complete and utter horse manure. If you are old enough to vote, pick up a gun and fight for your country, and hold down any other job in the country, with the exception of the presidency, you should be able to join the NBA, NFL, MLB,NHL, or any other league for that matter…..but that is just one man’s opinion.
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Apr 2, 2010 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Remember ...
… This is the collective bargaining agreement we are talking about. It isn’t as if David Stern came down from on high and instituted this rule by fiat.
This is what the players and the league collectively agreed to, and the only reason it may have difficulty being struck down like it was back in the 1970’s is some Supreme Court precedent or other having to do with labor laws.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Yeah, but I just couldnt resist the soapbox for a moment.....lol
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
Thank you.
You stopped me for posting another unlikey and crazy wish that everyone deserves a new red Ferrari each year.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 1:03 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
It's also worth nothing that
Kansas had both the talent AND the experience to win it all, and they succumed before us. Similarly, while Syracuse was better than originally expected, they also had talent AND experience, and it didn’t work for them either.
Sometime’s it’s just not your year to win it all. It happens.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.
by blbskue on Apr 2, 2010 12:03 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Truth
I’m on my mobile, so I don’t have that little gear thing or else I’d rec this post.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Apr 2, 2010 12:24 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Yup
Sometimes a gang of bricklayers hits a bunch of off-balance, contested, eyes-closed 3s (and nothing else for an entire half), and all you can do is shake your head and go home. And try not to be too disgusted by the inevitable return to form by said gang of bricklayers the following week.
I think...
that’s selling West Virginia just a tad short, don’t you?
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
by sddbaker on Apr 2, 2010 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes, and deliberately so
Just bracing myself for the likelihood that they’ll roll out the time-honoured “We beat Kentucky to get here, now watch us FAIL” playbook on Saturday.
I
hope not. I surely hope not but I do think they got lucky on the threes and that is why they are where they are……….I do think Duke will kill em.
Wow...is that ever wrong.
Lucky on the threes? Seriously? Did you watch the game? To me there were two primary reasons UK lost the game: 1) Their inability to attack or handle the zone…they settled for 3’s. 2) Their defense was awful….for whatever reason. JW played a very bad defensive game. It was his man, a backup who average <3 pts/game to lead their team in scoring that game. Of course it wasn’t his fault that he played 39 minutes, was totally exhausted, and forced to play man-to-man.
Finally I’ll remind you that WVU won the Big East, seeded #2, and many argued should have been a top seed. I hardly think the outcome was based on luck. They won’t need to rely on ‘luck’ to beat Duke.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 7:13 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
true
but you can’t COUNT on winning a title no matter HOW perfect your team seems. Just ask Kansas ;)
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 2, 2010 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions
No
argument there……its a rare perfect storm…….aka North Carolina last year whose two top players came back just to get to the title game………..If all came back next year……I would already tell sevenrings to change his name to eightrings. Cause just like NC last year…we would be unstoppable.
thats it in a nutshell
let me ask all our fans………which team in the tourney would you have traded out team for when the tourney began? Talk about an anomoly, that WV game qualifies.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 2, 2010 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions
And sometimes you just get out coached.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 1:05 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
HK
I’ll be the 1st to admit that i’m not smart enuf to say if Cal got outcoached or not. But, I DO think that if UK goes 8-32 from 3, 25%, then we’re not having this conversation and nobody questions his coaching.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 4:02 AM EDT up reply actions
No coach is perfect.
I could ask why a coach would allow his team to continue to shoot those threes. I could ask why defensive changes were not made on a team that was running a simple high post pick that resulted in lay up after lay up; an offensive set that most highschool coaches learned to defend in the ‘50s. I could ask why a coach would not full court press or ball press a team with a hurt starting point guard, the backup on the bench, behind, and time running down. I could ask why UK just didn’t attack a 1-3-1 better on a team that had played that defense earlier in the year.
I know it’s blasphemy on this site to criticize Cal, but I think in this game he deserves a large portion of the blame. I think one can admit that, without calling for his firing.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 6:57 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
like I said
I’m not a coach so I wont say he did or didnt do a good job of game management. But I DO know that the best coach on the planet didnt shoot 4-32. And WV shot lights out for most of the game. If you want to say Cal blew it, fine. But I watched the whole game and I didnt see him take ONE shot. The basketball gods just werent with us that night. And, I take nothing away from WV.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions
I think you need to look deeper than the shooting stats.
Ask yourself this: Why DID Kentucky shoot so many 3’s, especially since they were obviously having a poor shooting night?
My answer: The team kept on jacking up 3’s because they didn’t know how to attack the 1-3-1 zone. They didn’t know how to attack the zone because they weren’t coached successfully how to do it. There is a reason why this type of zone is not used often….it is fairly easy to defeat it. For most coaches, that is.
Besides if you need to really know something to offer an opinion, I’d be the only one on this board. ;)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 9:39 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Kentucky ...
… shot more threes for one simple reason — because they were supposed to.
If you listened to Calipari at all this year, he always told his team to take open shots. That is a fundamental principle of his offensive system. Not every shot, but good, open looks. Most of Kentucky’s threes were just that — good, open looks. A few were challenged, but most were not.
So you are wrong about why they did it. But you are right that the proper way to attack a 1-3-1 is not to shoot threes, but to get the ball into the short corners for jump shots. UK did that too, but they uncharacteristically missed them. They had made them all year.
So the team panicked a bit. But Calipari has preached, repeatedly, that the team was to always take open shots from three. Failing to do so gets you pulled. That’s been his strategy for instilling confidence in the team. It worked all year long except for this game.
So if “being outcoached” means that your strategy failed, well, then yes, he was. But he stuck to his principles, and I laud him for it. He did make adjustments, but all offensive adjustments are predicated on making open shots. UK simply had a lid on the basket. It happens.
UK broke down defensively in the middle of the second half. That was nothing more than a young team getting that “deer in the headlights” look when the breaks are all going against them. Their body language went south, and their concentration quickly followed. That’s where experience would have really helped.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I mostly agree with that.
In regards to your last paragraph, experience would have certainly helped. However, I also think it speaks to my ‘root cause’ theorgy that the team’s growth was hurt by their week schedule. That’s nobody’s fault.
It’s one think to be principled. I like people with principles. I think I am highly principled. However, if one is too rigid to his coaching principles, it may work against him. Some coaches out there believe in man-to-man…all the time regardless if it benefits the team (remember?). Call it principled if you want, and I don’t know what my breaking point would be, but if I saw my team going 0-10, or 0-15, or 0-20, or 0-25, I would think I’d consider a change in game strategy.
Another issue that I saw as the game progressed (of course I may be wrong and I am sure you will confidently point that out), is that the zone expanded. The Cats kept on firing 3-pointers and they may have been opened but they were from +22 feet. No wonder they kept missing those open shots.
Besides, he’s not to daggone principled. Given the strenght inside of the team this year, he rightly chose not to shove down the DDMO down his team’s throat. That was a good thing. I would just suggest that the outcome may have been a little different if he showed the same sort of flexibility or open mindesss if you will against your belief of him sticking to his principles.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I agree we were hurt by the weak schedule.
No doubt in my mind. West Virgina was battle-tested and tough, and Kentucky just hadn’t been through enough tough games to understand what to do when things went really wrong.
I guess we’ll agree to disagree about how the game was played. No harm there. I thought that generally UK stuck with what got them there, and the shots just were not falling. I think it is a legitimate argument to blame that on Coach Cal, but my perception is that he did as much as could rationally be expected. But that’s just my opinion.
At the end of the day, most of the shots UK got were good ones — they just didn’t fall. And not just the 3’s either. My feeling is that when shots don’t fall, you are likely to lose. The 1-3-1 is designed to surrender shots in both corners with good ball movement, but UK simply could not make them.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
One last comment.
I don’t mean to come across as just blamingCal, or point the finger that he actually caused the loss. As usual…as always actually…there are multiple factors to winning or losing the game. I just think the coaching played a role. That’s all.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I think most of us
agree with you, Hoze. Calipari has many unbelievably impressive strengths—I would not place in-game strategy as one of them.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 3, 2010 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
he was outcoached.....
because he did not get his guys to do what they were suppose to do – pound it inside. either you blame him or the kids. i blame him…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 3, 2010 11:39 PM EDT up reply actions
but i also give him FULL credit...
for making us relevant again…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 3, 2010 11:40 PM EDT up reply actions
the zone
messed them up and the lack of the three hurt us. The only mistake I thought he made was not guarding the permieter the way that he was able to get them to guard Cornell.
my view was that we did guard the perimeter as well.
i believe cornell did get off just as many uncontested (and contested) 3’s as wva – if a few of the cornell 3’s had gone in or a few less of the wva 3’s had gone in, both games would have been different stories. call it luck or whatever, but i do not believe our defense in the 1h of the wva game was significantly different than our defense versus cornell. wva only hit 2 3’s in the 2h and none in the last 16 or 17 mins of the game – i believe we tried to defend the 3 and ended up giving up the drives. i almost would have dared them to keep hitting the 3 – but hindsight is 20/20
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 3, 2010 11:56 PM EDT up reply actions
tru
you say it better than I do. Just couldnt make shots, and deja vu re: ’92 when someone went 10-10 from the field and 10-10 from the line. I wont mention any names.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions
See the little smiley face with a wink?
That means it was a joke. Let me know if I needd to actually spell it out next time.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
opinions
Offer your opinions, fine..not your spelling..not so good.
Neither is your sentence structure.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
No grammar Nazis in the comments, please. :-)
Comments are non-editable, so we want to avoid making commentary about people’s spelling (and sentence structure, Hoze), because they are a distraction and have nothing to do with the subject under discussion.
Thanks for your understanding.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Cal changed
with the obvious strength of our front-court,the DDM was not really used as often this season.I think that will change and we will start to see a “true” DDM system put into place.With that being said,you need to recruit players with that type of skill level,which I would rate at high.Although teams can try to copy this system,it will be hard for most teams to recruit at a high level to make the DDM effective.Cal is smart enough to blend in the 4* talent along with the 5* players.We had a great season,but I truly believe that the future is much brighter for what lies down the road.
2011
Aside from the big names we hope to add in this year’s recruiting class (Knight, Lamb etc) is there any word about who else we may be adding? We could conceivably need to fill 7-9 roster spots.
Need to save some scholarships for next year
Harrelson will be the only senior, and with the CBA uncertainty looming you have to protect for the possibility of zero early departures.
We won't need to save any spots.
If Cal gets the players he is after the hardest (Knight and Leslie for example), he will have a couple of more one and dones. They are going to get so much playing time next year that their progression and stats will be better than the usual freshman.
There are always some good players ...
… that shake loose due to coaching changes and other unpredictable things. I think we’ll get all the players we need.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
as a last resort
Cal could fill in a couple jucos
by bigbill992001 on Apr 2, 2010 9:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
There is at least one, Eloy Vargas, that has had some mutual interest.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Yes, this was
was an anomaly due to sooooo much young talent on one team and even with a blockbuster recruiting class we won’t be back at the 2009 level. This next class, instead of one-and-done may be more of two-and-skidoo.
This shouldn’t be taken as a comment of dissatisfaction or even discomfort with how Cal recruits, I like both the players and the national attention it brings to Kentucky. The national press may bitch and moan but potential recruits see it as a beacon for advancement. Of the 64 teams that made it to the tourney, there’s not a one I would have rather been backing. We got hit by lightning, it happens.
The experience everyone talks about was likely our downfall but Cal can hardly be blamed for that deficiency. Sure, he could have encouraged some of those that left the program to stay but they still wouldn’t have made a difference. We were a young team – starting three freshmen, a sophomore and a junior then at the end of the season the first ones off the bench were freshman (Orton), sophomore (Liggins) and sophomore (Dodson).
Next year the influx of freshmen will have the benefit of playing with a other players that have had a year with Cal (and each other) and also a year wiser. If Miller, Liggins and Dodson had been juniors this year, I don’t think we would have seen the aimless panic of the WVU game.
Comments
floating around re:Orton…this was in Chattanooga paper today…opinion, false comment or quote?
By: Mark Wiedmer
(Contact) ARTICLE TOOLS E-mail story
A couple of days ago, Kentucky freshman big man Daniel Orton explained why he was exploring the NBA draft.
“More than anything, it’s money,” the seasonlong substitute said. “In this world there’s only one color that matters, and that’s green.”
sad
the sad thing is, more than anything, it’s the players families that pressure these young kids to go pro, rather than the players themselves. Families that care more about the money, than their kids’ future and well-being. Not saying that’s the case with Orton, just saying it’s the case in general.
yes, but.........
you got to remember where most of these kids come from, thier family situations, i mean. Most are very poor and the lure of NBA money makes their heads spin. I’d be hardpressed to say no, too. We’re talking MILLIONS of dollars here folks. People would KILL for that kind of money.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 2, 2010 9:39 PM EDT up reply actions
there arent many Marqius Estills out there.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 2, 2010 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I don't understand this post.
People go to college in order to get the skills they need to get the job they want. A college education IS ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. I don’t know of one person that I knew in undergrad or graduate school that went to college for the “experience”. Everyone went so that they could get a good job when they got out. IF Orton can be a first round pick this year, he should go. Simple as that.
ok dog
If you could make MILLIONS..thats with an M………….and not even go to college would you still feel the same way? Or if you could go to college for only one yr?
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 2:27 AM EDT up reply actions
Yea, I suspect that many that argue that players should stay..
….have never seen the inside of a college classroom themselves.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 7:18 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
HK you're probably right
And they certainly havent been offered millions of dollars for playing a game. Its like if you won the lottery the 1st time you played and said “I dont want the money ’coz this is the 1st time I played and its not right to win already”
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 8:30 AM EDT up reply actions
hmmmmmmmmm
maybe not a great analogy…………lol
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 8:31 AM EDT up reply actions
How about this analogy:
It’s like some people complaining and griping about doctors making too much money and that they should really work hard from the goodness of their heart.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 9:43 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Thank you ...
… for making the point that almost nobody seems to get.
Nobody would go to college if they could make six figures out of high school. You go to college for one of two reasons — to increase your earning potential or altruism.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
silly part is that he seems to have developed a bad case of forest disease.......
12 months more and he would be worth twice what he is right now with a really good season under him. If Charles Barkley can see it, doesnt Orton think other people will be able to as well??
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
well..
Agree with you that Orton, given one or two more years, could be a beast.
My guess is he is listening to all those around him. Wall going pro, Cousins going pro, and Orton is thinking, “hey, I played with those guys, maybe I’m ready as well”. Add to that family members who would benefit by Orton going pro, and that he’s an impressionable 19 year old, and you’ve got the mix.
Here’s an off handed question: how many of those considering going pro are on scholarship, and how many are paying their own way?
Are you asking...
if any of the are walk-ons?
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
no, scholarships
how many players (Wall, Cousins, whoever) are on a free ride, how many players are paying their own way through loans or what not. Might be an indicator of who is more tempted to go pro or not.
If they are paying their own way, they are walk-ons. If not, they are on scholarship. All those guys are on scholarship.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
5/7 rule
Doesn’t the NCAA have a rule that states that no more than 7 players on any team can be on scholarship, and no more than 5 scholarships can be awarded to one class (freshman, sophomore, etc.)? I could be very very wrong about that, tho.
Yep...they did
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
13 scholarships for basketball.
Not sure about class limit. All UK players this year were on scholarships.
I agree with almost everything you said except
I would say that Butler has a future NBA player on their team—Gordon Hayward. In fact, he might be the best player in the Final Four.
Butler not a fluke
Butler was the only team in the nation that went undefeated in conference play.
like I said
I think they’re a lot better team than people give them credit for. I had them in the Elite 8 on my bracket.
Butler was preseason Top 10 in coaches poll back in November 2009
So were Duke, West Va, and Mich St.
Coaches got it right way back then.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 3, 2010 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions
None of the final four are flukes
All were in the preseason top 10 (except Butler was #11 in one poll).
Yeah ...
… But probably only one. Usually, you need at least two.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I don't
feel like I am getting my point across. I wish that oldcat(who played at Kentucky) would give us some perspective. I have had only high school experience not college in playing so I cannot give enough credit to what I am meaning. All I know is that my veterans were the ones we looked to for guidance especially in game tight situations. I don’t know what I would have done without them. My sophomore year we had a brand new coach and juinor Stacey Reed who was in the top twenty in the country. Had a great year and great talent but it took us one more year to win the title…(which I had moved away by this time)…..I really wish oldcat would post in on this.
ppat was the veteran leadership...
could not have asked for anything better – senior or junior…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 2, 2010 11:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Okay, I'll bite.
While you “can’t coach quickness” and raw talent falls in that same category, you can coach “been there, done that.” And you coach that when you’ve had bad (losing) experiences. Most people learn more from losing than from winning, IMO. This team didn’t have that opportunity, except for two lost games. I think that they, while supremely talented, won a bunch of close games and thought that was the way it was always going to be.
While I hate to admit it, Hoze is right above when he says were probably 18 points from having several more losses. It might have been good in the tournament if we had. The young players might have learned that their talent would need to be supplemented by consistent, game-long effort to make sure they didn’t lose. I think it was a shock to their systems when WV kept taking it to them, and they didn’t have adverse experiences to fall back on.
So, in summary so far, I think experience (and a weak schedule) played a part in the loss.
I am on record as saying that Coach Cal was outcoached in that game. That’s my opinion, and I might be right or wrong. Given the option of letting a spread offense produce layup after layup for the other team or dropping off the perimeter and seeing if they could continue to be hot from three-land, I’ll drop off every time. Of course, I don’t get paid to coach.
As for continually putting up threes. That kind of falls in the same category of finding out if the other team can continue to hit them. If you had an adequate (note I didn’t say great) outside shooting team, wouldn’t you think “surely the odds are going to swing our way eventually?” That said, I would have insisted on some balance between outside shots and taking it inside so our bigs could get fouled.
Oops, that didn’t work either, did it, because we couldn’t hit our butt from the line. That’s another place where I think Coach Cal needs to shift a little emphasis in practice. YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO GIVE UP GAMES BY SHOOTING POORLY FROM THE LINE. I don’t care how damned talented your players are.
As for Patrick Patterson being our experienced leadership. That’s partially right. He has a great attitude and is one of the finest people, IMO, to have worn the blue and white. But the experience needs to be at a guard position when the pressure is on, and we didn’t have that. PPat is a great kid, but he wasn’t handling the ball enough to exert that leadership.
The 1-3-1 has some vulnerable spots, as has been mentioned. One of them is that it doesn’t “breathe” as well as a 2-3. Moving the ball inside-out quickly (!) causes expansion and contraction of the 1-3-1 and creates opportunities for jumpers and even inside shots as the zone is adjusting to ball movement. We didn’t do that too well, either.
Okay, that was all opinion, and here’s another: These kids have too much talent in a way. Less athletic players have to depend on teammates to get open (watch that Butler weave, cut, backdoor pattern, for example). These kids are used to doing it on their own and it comes as a shock to them when they can’t.
Sorry to be so long-winded, but tenken asked for it. :-))
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
I'm not the oldcat
you are talking about but I agree completely ten
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Change
KY and college bball in general needs a total paradigm shift. KY in particular needs to house the good ole boys club of boosters that dictate who we hire as HC, why we hire them
who and how we recruit and lose the “win championships at all costs” mentality. There should be more focus (and not just lip service given) to students getting their degree and developing these kids in their college experience..Otherwise, we simply have a 1 year NBA developmental “camp” for the student/athlete with no respect to the University or an education. If you continue to recruit these kids who only see signing with UK or any other big program as a short jump stop to NBA millions, nothing will change. Butler wins it all..
That will not happen.
For good or ill, the boosters provide the money that runs the machine. You can want in one hand and defecate in the other and see which one fills up first.
Why should there be more focus on students getting their degree? Many of these young men are in college for one reason — to use it as a launch pad for their basketball careers. That is true not just of Kentucky, but of every division I school that has a successful basketball program.
For good or ill, UK and colleges like it are already an NBA development camp. That’s just a fact.
But one thing that a year in college provides that jumping straight to the NBA does not is exposure to the college lifestyle. We have seen that John Wall and Demarcus Cousins, in particular, have become very fond of that, have had a very positive experience, and as a result, are more likely than a “straight to the NBA’er” to come back after their NBA career and finish school. I think that is a net positive, and worth every minute of their “one and done” year.
This line of argumentation is not only shopworn, it’s roots are elitist and quite possibly detrimental to kids who would otherwise not be inclined to give college a try.
I can understand bemoaning a situation where kids come into school and just don’t go to class their second semester. That would be a problem that needs addressing. Colleges have no control over “one and done,” but the can insist that every student playing on scholarship attend and pass their classes every step of the way. And they should.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
right , again, tru
Playing sports and going to college is hard enough, its a load. One can easily get burnedout. Now, add in some NBA/NFL team waving a big, fat check at you.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
Thats fine..
Student athletes are said to commit to their respective schools…maybe we should should make it a L.O.I.I to"try" college..Seems like a double standard when KY strives to be a top university. Elitist? maybe…I think of it as a privilege to be awarded a scholarship to an institution of higher learning..
I agree it is a privilege ...
… but athletic scholarships are only awarded for one year under an LOI.
Let’s be honest, UK uses these kids just as much as they use UK. It is the very definition of a symbiotic relationship.
College is designed to prepare young people to earn a good living. Whether or not we think sports is an honorable profession, it clearly has become an effective curriculum in most colleges.
Frankly, I have trouble understanding why people have a problem with that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Well
looks like we have another overnight expert!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Don't know what you mean..
I may be new to this board but have been a fan for many years..
Coach Cal tied for 5th place in AP COY with 2 votes
Jim Boeheim receives the honor with 38 (39?) votes. Frank Martin receives second place with 8 votes.
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
All I know is
that this was the most fun team we have had to pull for in several years. I am happy to let Cal figure out the recruiting and growing the experience on his team. He indicated throughout the season that he had more experience on all his other teams that went deep into the tournament and he knows what he is doing.
Me I just got back from teaching my seven year old granddaughter how to dribble and throw a crisp bounce pass on the prettiest day this year to date, that is all the coaching and recruiting I am qualified to do. I love the vitality the program has and all the recruiting news, and the way we are in the national press good or bad every day. Good Job Coach.
Go CATS!
OOPs
posted too quickly…
for me at least…this was fun to read.
http://www.sbnation.com/2010/4/2/1398649/duke-final-four-2010-ncaa-tournament
CA...
Why in the world didn’t you link this to a Fanpost/Fanshot?? :-) This is awesome!! Thanks for passing it along…
If your wings don't sweep....
Pretty classic...
Will have to file that one away! Might be able to use a phrase or two out of that for a, errrr, “meaningful encounter” in the future!! :-)
If your wings don't sweep....
So
Duke fans = Chicago Cubs fans.
That actually explains everything. NOW I know why I hate Duke! :-)
You can put it on the board....YES.
omg, so true!
I HATE the Cubs and all their pathetic losing, and their smug fans, and their dump of a ballpark, and now I know why, thank you twocee!
(parenthetically, my husband, the Louisville fan, is also a Cubs fan. ::world weary sigh:: )
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 3, 2010 9:18 AM EDT up reply actions
Keep On Keeping On
Rob Dauster, Beyond The Arc, basically says that Calipari shouldn’t change a thing. Continuing with my earlier comments on The Anomalies, due to the markedly aberrant nature of the 2009-10 season I don’t think Calipari will have the option of not changing his ways,
"Perhaps the fact that we have seen millions voting themselves into complete dependence on a tyrant has made our generation understand that to choose one's government is not necessarily to secure freedom" - Hayek
This can't be good...
Anybody seen anything else about this??
Enes Kanter (a five-star recruit who may very well be facing a suspension next season for playing with professionals in his native Turkey)
If your wings don't sweep....
That has been going on since he commited, I am pretty sure Eagle
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Ran a Google search but didn't come up with anything...
First I’ve heard of this?? Thanks for the input!
If your wings don't sweep....
was known...
probably looking at a few games at start of season.
he played on a european team with paid players. ncaa working on changing the rule. high school ball is not as developed in europe so good players sign with clubs….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 2, 2010 11:20 PM EDT up reply actions
The West Virginia player (Kilickli)...
who had the same situation this year had to sit out the first 20 games. It’s pretty likely, though, that the rule change will be approved before then which will allow him full eligibility with no suspension.
"It breaks your heart. It is designed to break your heart. The game begins in the spring, when everything else begins again, and it blossoms in the summer, filling the afternoons and evenings, and then as soon as the chill rains come, it stops and leaves you to face the fall alone." A. Bartlett Giamatti
I think ...
… there is some new legislation in the NCAA which might mitigate this.
The rule is basically unfair guilt by association. If you play for a team “club” team in another country (they are different from our professional league, but there is still pay for play), even if you don’t take money in order to maintain your amateur status, the NCAA winds up penalizing you for it.
I have to study the rule to comment on it further, but that is my understanding from reading others. It may therefore be wrong. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
wow, just wow
btwn this thread and the last thread, i cannot believe what i am reading. we are less than a week away from a trip to the elite eight – which i remind you is one year away from a sweet sixteen trip to the NIT.
we are getting EXACTLY what we should have expected with a Cal lead basketball program. there are always moving pieces – nothing is every easy. but he does bring talent and exciting basketball.
get used to it. if you really want some agnst, focus on the Nets. Imagine if Cal goes there – how many of those big time recruits do you think UK would sign? they would all sign somewhere else before we even found a coach…then who would the coach sign? (and let me be clear, i do not believe he is going to the nets BUT i do believe the talk will get louder about the possibility before it dies down)
I agree this season is an anomally – Cal never had more than 1 one and done player a year at memphis. things will settle down – as much as they can under Cal.
not saying it is bad, but you have got to know that there is never a dull moment with Cal…Sometimes those moments make you feel great and sometimes they are filled with angst – but at least you are relavent..
Enjoy the ride – it is what it is- because it will end one day, sooner than you want, but later than you think it will…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 2, 2010 11:31 PM EDT reply actions
Thank you memphis
I will take your advise. I was already there (enjoying the ride) anyway, but I feel better about it now.
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
based on your post above...
i thought you were already doing a good job of enjoying the ride. :)
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 2, 2010 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
I {sometimes) feel like the Lone Ranger on the train '-)
Nice to have other passengers enjoying it with me. Life is more fun when we share.
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
You've got a few faithful sidekicks...
You can call me Tonto if you want!! :-)
If your wings don't sweep....
Eagle -
With the UK basketball season being put in the books, I thought you would have already moved on to cricket. ;-)
Getting geared up for Baseball and Cricket...
They both use bats, ya know?? :-)
If your wings don't sweep....
I'm looking forward to football NOW
I have really missed it !!
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Now there is
someone after my heart. Football can’t come soon enough. Beat Tennessee! (and South Carolina)
I'm really interested in the QB outcome...
Based on Joker’s comments, no clear front runner yet. They’ve all got good and bad points, from my understanding, but if I had to pick a favorite it would be ‘Ski. He’s supposedly got a real cannon, but I don’t know about his accuracy?? He’s got 4 years of eligibility left, so that would be something to base a team and an “offensive concept” around. I know, you could say the same thing about Newton, but his accuracy just didn’t impress me last year; tons of high-balls but I don’t if he’s fixed that or not??
Reason I say ‘Ski is this, look at UGA when they went with Stafford… First year wasn’t so good, but they were awfully competitive the next 3. YMMV…
If your wings don't sweep....
Yep
From what I’ve heard and read it seems Mossy has the most upside, followed by Newton then …. well….. there’s Hartline. I think I liked Fidler over Hartline. I just don’t see the leadership by Hartline, but, to be fair, don’t know of the others’ leadership abilities. Questions, questions, questions. It will be interesting to say the least, any everybody’s going to have an opinion. Ain’t it great!
Hmmm... Interesting point about Fidler
I think Fidler and Hartline were a wash, pretty equal in all areas. Thought Fidler should have played over Newton, no doubt. Matter of fact, I remember ABC and I had several friendly goings back and forth about it… I’m rooting for Mossy, so when he succeeds beyond measure or fails miserably, you can blame me! :-)
If your wings don't sweep....
What?!
Somebody is already set to take the blame? Ahhhh, mannnn. You’re takin’ all the fun out of it. ;-)
Oh,
and BTW, I think I’m rooting for Mossy, too. I’ve seen Hartline (nuf said) and Newton had plenty of time to get over his happy feet and high balls; tho, I can see Newton winning the starting job at the beginning due to a little more experience than Mossy, nursing egos and keeping father Newton at bay. We might not have the starter figured out until SEC play begins.
...but
if they dont want to stay and are the best talent available – get them anyway.
(emphasis mine) ;)
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 3, 2010 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions
tenken
it would be nice if we could convince them to stay, one and done kids, i mean. But, here’s their options. Play basletball/football and go to classes………….or………play basketball/football and go to the bank…………in your Rolls.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 10:49 AM EDT up reply actions
to a point
yes…….I think we must understand that rolling in freshman every year that will just leave us….is not a good thing. I don’t care how talented they are. It depletes our roster. A few here and there is fine. Because without those talented guys we had this year we wouldn’t have sniffed at the sweet sixteen. I just worry about the future that is all :)
I think
that as time goes by, we’ll find that we’ll have a few of both. Some one-and-done and also some kids that will stay 2, 3 or even 4 yrs. I’m sure Cal would like to have kids here for 4 yrs to train and get experience. I would think that it would make his job easier. But, if you get a chance to get a JW ot DC, you gotta take it, even for one yr. Afterall, maybe they end up at your rivals for that one yr.
by bigbill992001 on Apr 3, 2010 7:13 PM EDT up reply actions
yes big bill...
we must be patient.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 3, 2010 11:44 PM EDT up reply actions
It just comes down to statistics
Every team has a chance of winning a game they should lose, and losing a game they should win. We were a beneficiary of the former early in the season a few times, and a victim to the latter against West Virginia. I say 8 times out of 10 we beat WVU. This game was just one of those two times. Were our chances higher for losing for being underclassmen and inexperienced? Absolutely. But was it a fatal flaw that prevented us from beating WVU or even being favored to win, even in hindsight? I think not. I strongly believe we make just one of our first 10 three point shots, and we go into halftime ahead – we win that game – even with our inexperience.
Even if we had more experience and composure, or a even a more consistent shooter on the wing (Tony Delk is playing instead of coaching), we win 19 times out of 20 (ok, probably better with Delk, I am being modest). But still there is a chance of losing!!
There are lots of things that can cause you to get upset in addition to the above. Injuries can take you down (see 2003 team – Bogans doesn’t get injured, we win it all that year too). Foul trouble for big men is a huge unpredictable factor. Maybe someone on the team had a family tragedy and can’t focus on the game. Even just inconsistent players – even upperclassmen – can push you over the ledge to a loss. Conversely, some player on the other team going Jodie Meeks and dropping 54 points on you can ruin your day. These are all things that can cause you to get upset. Overconfidence is another. Tournament seeding and matchups can keep you out of the Final Four (Note: this one doesn’t apply to Duke). The NCAA can retroactively take away a player’s eligibility and you lose even when you win (Note: this one also doesn’t apply to above-the-law Duke) Losing your composure due to youth is just another factor.
Point is, the NCAA tournament is still a crap shoot. Some of the greatest teams didn’t win it historically, and this year is no different – only 2 of the top 5 even made it to the final four. It’s not best 2 out of 3, or 4 out of 7 or whatever the NBA and MLB do, which makes the NCAA tournament outcome more unpredictable. And unpredictable is just that – you never know who is going to win. But that’s what makes it exciting. Admit it, you cheered when Kansas lost to Northern Iowa. But Kansas wins that in a 2 out of 3 format.
Is it disappointing not to make the final four given the regular season? Yes. So how you have to look at it is: were we in a position to win it all? I think we were. Sometimes you just have “bad luck” (WVU shooting crazy, contested 3’s at double their average percentage, while we go oh-fer 20) and get upset. It happens.
So I think we were in a good spot in the tournament. In my view, 40% of the time we win the tournament, and I think that is pretty darn good. We just ran into some bad luck and weren’t able to overcome our team’s flaws (unreliable outside shooting and inexperience). We don’t like it, but it happens. I think we were in an AMAZING spot compared to where we were last year, where our percent chance of winning the NCAA tournament was exactly 0% because we didn’t even make it. I take this year’s odds any day.
Plus we had a great regular season, won more SEC titles, took a huge lead in all-time wins, started a great home win streak, and got to enjoy a year of watching Cousins and Wall, two of the greatest players to ever put on the UK uniform. We sent out one of the most beloved players in recent memory, Patrick Patterson, on Senior Day with a degree soon following, saw some amazing Bledsoe dunks and crazy layups the like of which we’ve never seen at UK. I was bummed at our lost at first, but looking back – what an amazing year!
yay!
amazingly correct and well-stated comment ; )
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 3, 2010 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions
UK Played And Coached A Lousy 2nd Half
WVU shot Lights Out from 3-pt FG range in 1st half but led by just 2.
UK players and coaches had brain cramps in the 2nd half somewhat like 1984 FF versus Georgetown.
by FortyYearCatFan on Apr 3, 2010 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Ding-ding-ding.
We have a winner. It had little to do with luck.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Not luck at all.
WVU played better. They deserved to win. No question about it.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Oh, they definitely outplayed and probably outcoached UK and deserved to win.
But I don’t see why the luck of the draw can’t also be considered a factor. Luck is most definitely a big factor in single elimination tourneys, imo. Wake Forest was unlucky to face UK when we were kicking on all cylinders and they got into quick foul trouble. We were unlucky to have drawn the only region where we faced the highest possible seed to reach the Final Four, against the Big East champion, who played a much tougher schedule than we did, who had a legitimate claim to have been a one seed, on a night where they were hitting outside shots with practically unheard-of accuracy. I don’t think it diminishes WV’s amazing effort to say so.
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 3, 2010 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions
I completely agree BKG.
Obviously WV outplayed us that night, but I dont think it diminishes their effort at all to say that there were some elements of luck involved. It just is what it is.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Apr 4, 2010 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions
UK Dominated WVU on defense in the first half
0-16 from 2-point range due to incredible defense. All but a couple of their 3’s were contested. WVU made more than one insanely lucky shot.
We were 0 for 20 from 3-point range, at least half of them uncontested. WVU was lucky we were missing these wide open shots.
Without getting into a discussion about a deterministic universe, what we colloquially call luck absolutely does play a factor in every game. Many basketball games come down to one shot. Think about that famous Nazr Mohommed Vandy shot – he wasn’t even shooting, he just “threw it up there so someone else would get it”. Luck. When I hit a break in pool, and drop a ball, it’s luck. It happens.
For the UK-WVU game, that important shot wasn’t at the end of the game, instead pick any of our 3 point shots in the first half. The rim is a little more or less tight and one of those early shots goes in, we get our confidence back, go into halftime ahead and not so rattled and win the game.
Now I’m not blaming bad luck, rims, or anything like that for the loss, it was our poor response to the bad luck that cased us to lose. To be a great team, you need to be more robust to bad luck, so we absolutely deserved to lose that game. And I’m not taking anything away from WVU, they are a good team, they played hard, and they took advantage of the situation, played clutch in the second half and deserved the win they got. Nothing extraneous gave them the win over us.
But WVU was still lucky UK didn’t bring our A-game on offense. I still think we are the better team and win 8 times out of 10.
Wow...Congratulations
That is absolutely the best effort of both talking out of both sides of your mouth and rationalization that I’ve ever read. You were able to use the word ‘luck’ nine times, while writing ‘…I’m not blaming luck…’ Amazing.
I hope you didn’t hurt yourself.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I'll ignore the ad hominem and break it down for you.
Kentucky lost because of our response to bad luck.
That’s about as simple as I can make it.
Interesting.
I can almost buy into that, if it wasn’t quite so dismissive of a very good WVU team who played a very good game. Often it’s best and more fair to just acknowledge and congratulate the other team.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
"Often it’s best and more fair to just acknowledge and congratulate the other team."
Beautiful sentiment—-if you’re talking to your opponent or a fan or your opponent. Don’t you allow that’s it is okay and really not bad sportsmanship and even perhaps not worth you snapping sarcastically at an individual who was nothing but perfectly pleasant and cordial, for a bunch of fans on a fan blog to even mention the affect of chance on a game in which our team lost? I mean, it’s only basketball, right?
by blue kentucky girl on Apr 3, 2010 6:41 PM EDT up reply actions
WVU is a good team
You’re right. I should have said something like this:
I’m not taking anything away from WVU, they are a good team, they played hard, and they took advantage of the situation, played clutch in the second half and deserved the win they got.
OK I did say it.
… and I meant it. I am really not trying to take anything away from WVU’s excellent play – they played great, congratulations to them, I am cheering for them to win it all and I think they can.
That said, I will repeat what other commentators have said about UK in the tournament. After the Kansas loss, the only team that could beat Kentucky was Kentucky. And guess what, they were right, Kentucky beat Kentucky. Unlike the 1st half, where Kentucky dominated WVU on defense, in the second half Kentucky gave up TONS of open layups and generally fell apart. We just choked in the second half and lost because of it. WVU, to their credit, took advantage like a good team does, and won and deserved to win.
The point of the original post was that UK had a team capable of winning it all. Loading up on one-and-done winners is a valid strategy for winning the NCAA tournament. Inexperience is just another factor that can cause a loss, not a fatal flaw making your chance of winning go to nearly zero.
I agree with your last paragraph.
However you did end your original post with ‘…WVU is lucky we didn’t bring our A-game…’.
I just think WVU had something to do with that. It sure doesn’t seem to be consistent that WVU is deserving…that’s for sure. Hence my comment talking out of both corners.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 7:03 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
yes...
but are you telling me a team hits no 2’s, makes only 3’s and Fts then goes into half time with a lead is not an aberation. luck and aberation are the same thing….
now the 2h i blame on coaching. perhaps if we had been luckier, coaching would not have mattered. sort of a circular argument….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Apr 3, 2010 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions
Aberation? Probably.
I just find it unfair that when a team beats someone by six points, that averaged a 10 pt lead in the second half where the lead was never at risk, is said to have won by luck.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 4, 2010 12:24 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Analogy
I am standing around with my friend and someone I don’t know gives me a $100 bill, and my friend gets nothing. Lucky me, unlucky him.
Through clever entrepreneurship, I turn that $100 into a $1 billion business. Turning the $100 into $1 billion was not the product of luck, it was the product of skill and hard work.
My friend pouts, even though he has $98 in his pocket, and doesn’t do anything.
So, even though I never would have made it without my lucky start, I am deserving of the $1 billion business. My friend could have earned another $2 and been on the same footing as me and made the same $1 billion business, but he was too busy pouting.
To spell it out, the $100 over $98 corresponds WVU’s and UK’s scores at halftime. The $999,999,900 corresponds to WVU’s dominance in the second half.
Kentucky has played like crap earlier in the season and won. But when Kentucky played like crap against WVU, instead of letting us hang in there, WVU capitalized on it by taking advantage of Kentucky’s weakness.
So to be absolutely, 100% perfectly clear, WVU didn’t win by luck. They won because they played a dominant second half and pushed a choking Kentucky team over the edge. But had Kentucky not walked itself to the edge as a reaction to bad luck, WVU couldn’t have pushed them off.
I never
said they were lucky to win…..I said they had lucky threes that helped get them to this weekend and they were very lucky……..Nobody shoots all threes in a half without some luck.
BTW, plese stop your condescending attitude.
I'm a member.
I’ll try to stop my condenscending attitude (whatever that means and however that is demonstrated) if you stop being judgemental and tattle-taling on me. Mommy!!!!
P.S. – Sorry if my differing opinion somehows insults you….I mean, it’s only basketball.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Oh please
you insult people which is in direct violation of this boards policy because they simply disagree with you. It has nothing to do with disagreement. Many people have disagreed with me and others but this is the one and only time I have flagged someone in the three years I have been on this board.
I haven't insulted anyone.
Point out the specific insult. Go ahead. I can take it. I’ll politely wait for your response.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 8:49 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Hey, I take that as a personal insult!
Mommy!?!?! He’s picking on me!!!
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 9:30 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Below is your comment
Yea, Ding-Dong, like last year. I already wrote how much it sucked witnessing it in person. Are you a slow reader, or what?
Some would think...
…that the Ding-Dong response was a clever retort referencing ‘ring a bell’. Others may not be quick enough to catch it.
Most people would take exception to the crass reference to abortion that NYC made, preceding my response. I personally don’t think abortion is anything to make light of or joke about. In fact most people would be insulted. I guess you don’t find it offensive and that’s okay with me. I try not to judge.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 11:13 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I think Hoze is ok.
It’s true that some people’s personality comes through as tactless in their writing, and their grammar doesn’t translate well with everyone, I mean, I have been called rude myself, and unless I feel I am confronted in a non-friendly manner, I am really anything but.
I think it’s just a matter of trying to understand someone’s writing style and then taking their words accordingly, you know? And the longer you get to know someone (i.e. read their words) you get a better understanding of where they are coming from. Yeah, Hoze comes off as crass and sort of rude sometimes, but I think his heart is in the right place and also, I trust in Tru to see a good egg from a bad one (the egg reference is in favor of the Easter Holiday : )) Happy Easter, all. …
Did I insult him?
I don’t think I did. Regardless, I respect NYC as a poster. He commented back and that was good enough for me. We both let it go.
Here’s a suggestion for you since you feel free to dole them out yourself: It’s just not very attractive to butt into other peoples’ business/discussions. Where I come from people say, mind your own business. Not a bad philosophy to live by.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 3, 2010 11:52 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
I feel
that I should be allowed to come on a board that I frequent and not read some person sit there and put down people for their opinions and make it personal. So I will call it like I see it. Its that simple. If you don’t like it then don’t stop by…..that simple. Won’t hurt my feelings……done with this conversation.
Fine
I’ll too go ahead, sit back, criticize your posts, and then tell you how to behave. Well, no I won’t. That would be pompous and rude.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 4, 2010 12:20 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Uh,
don’t make me look like a fool here, please? Be nice, once in awhile, at least, ok? Like, trade off if you must — on even numbered days try your damndest to be nice, and on odd days you can be cantankerous. ; )
Hmmmmm.....
That sounds like a deal I can’t pass up. Besides, I didn’t start this. She did!!
(It’s great sometimes reliving your youth….her name was Annie).
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Apr 4, 2010 12:41 AM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Now I remember
why we never once missed HK for the whole season!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Really can't
I really can’t find an easy answer for the second half of that game..The game certainly was not won in the first half..WVU takes what our suffocating defense gave them and hit more 3’s in a half than they had all season and we were still only down a bucket..The combination of the 1-3-1 and no help on defense, poor free throw shooting, it all played into the loss..Poise can win games..staying focused., offensive patience, those things come with maturity. I can’t see them winning it all, though..Still gonna stick with Butler..The college game is affected by emotion and momentum more than the pro game and the crowd support will be unbelievable.
No Complaints Here
Ideally, I would like to see us always have 4-year players who earn their degrees, but ideal ain’t gonna happen here or anywhere else very often. To vie for the national championship on a regular basis, we must recruit players who have the size, athleticism and skill that make them potential pros. Some years, we will get one or two who will be pro-ready in one or two years. But most of the time, most of our recruits won’t be in that category. Most years — whether we like it or not — we’ll have junior/senior led teams.
This year was a genuine aberration. Before the season started, all of us had high hopes, and many expected John Wall to be great. But few expected Cousins (temper, effort), Orton (injury) and Bledsoe (playing with Wall) to be one-and-dones (including, I suspect, Coach Cal).
Right now, our underclassmen with little prospect of going pro this year are Miller, Liggins, Dodson, Hood and Harrellson. Bledsoe & Orton may or may not have prospects. Coach will have at least 5 and perhaps 7 scholarships to offer. Is he going to get another Wall, another Cuz, four potential one-and-dones in one class? Not likely.
Normalcy will return. Whether we like it or not. In the meantime, we’ve been treated to a wonderful year by a great group of young men.
Have you considered our coach is the problem?
What do teams like West Virginia, and Bulter have in common….they have zero all americans……That is correct, the team that beat us in the NCAA tourney had ZERO nationally ranked players. The same holds true with Bulter who made it to the championship game and almost won. Calipari is a AWESOME salesman and what attracks players to him is $$ MONEY $$, not to become a better player. What makes Calipari different, is he has very tight connections with Worldwide Wes and Lebron James that help him get the recruits. Look at Josh Shelby, who was committed to Tennessee until his mom met with Lebron James and Worldwide Wes…. the morning after their meeting, he de-committed to Tennessee……
We need players that have a passion for basketball, Tyler Hansborogh, Chris Lofton, Evan Turner, etc…..
if you dont think that John Wall and Demarcus Cousins, Daniel Orton and Eric Bledsoe have a passion
for basketball, your perception may need adjusted
I AM THE CAT......The Cat In The Hat!!!
I don't see your point. . .
except for the one on the top of your head. Tubby was a great bench coach and he recruited plenty of players that weren’t all americans. Also your comment about Josh Selby sounds like sour grapes. If Cal has been paying recruits then he must be very good about keeping it secret since no one has caught him at it yet.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Community Guidelines
[UPDATED 01/18/2012]
Related FanPosts on A Sea Of Blue
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
