Patrick Patterson and Senior Day
by tenken on Feb 22, 2010 7:41 AM EST
372 comments
When Tennessee's senior day was coming up last fall, there was a heavy debate on whether Eric Berry would be allowed to do senior activities since he was all but going to the NFL. My stance was NO! He wasn't a senior and shouldn't be allowed to do it.
Okay, now that Patrick Patterson is facing this in two weeks, I want to examine this question. My take on this is yes, Pat is a senior, albeit not a four year senior but a three year senior. To me that means even more. He has forgone many normal young man stuff to get his degree and he will be earning a degree for the university.
I think he should get to do the senior stuff on senior day. Just because he didn't go to UK for four years doesn't mean he should be penalized for it. He is getting a degree and deserves to get the recognition. He has meant a lot to the University of Kentucky. Not many athletes of his caliber even get a degree much less do it in three years. I think he should get to do it. Now of course there is still the question of whether he comes back, but honestly ... he doesn't need to.
[Added by Truzenzuzex]
I think Tenken makes some very good points here, and this subject is worth debating. After the jump, I will lay out the arguments for and against.
Arguments for:
- Patrick Patterson is an academic senior. Is senior day only limited to players with no athletic eligibility left? That would seem passing strange for a university that holds academic achievement allegedly in higher regard than athletic achievement.
- Many players before Patterson have been honored after only three years, back in the years when freshmen were not eligible.
- Jared Carter is one player, and there may have been more, who was acknowledged on Senior Day with at least potential eligibility left. It was theoretically possible for UK to have gained an extra year for Carter merely be asking for it. But significantly, they did not do so and had no intention of doing so. Carter could not have asked for it on his own.
Arguments against:
- There is no support in tradition for honoring players with actual eligibility left on Senior Day.
- Patrick Patterson certainly means no more to this program than Jamal Mashburn, and he was not so honored. The argument for Patterson's importance to the program is non-sequitur, because there have been many important underclassmen (Rex Chapman and Jamal Mashburn just to name two) who have not been honored.
- What if Patterson came back? Would he be asked to sit out of Senior Day, because he already had participated in one, or allowed to stand for two? Awkward.
- Tradition is important, and making exceptions cheapens tradition and makes it less meaningful.
Let the debate begin. Thanks to Tenken for raising the issue.
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I vote YES
he should be recognized, UNLESS he wants to play next year. Which wouldn’t bother me on bit, if that is what he wants to do. :-)
Thing is, he might not have made that decision in two weeks, so how does that affect things?
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Good Morning Ladies!
It would be a shame and a disgrace for Patterson not to be accorded every honor He deserves as a “Senior” member of this team. A lot of times a senior member has been a backup or reserve and still gets his due. This man has been our leader and shows by his actions, both on and off the court that He is a true Wildcat and a gentleman. I wish him well later in life. I’m an avid NBA watcher and would love to have him on my team. Good write tenken, this needs to be on front page!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
I can relate
to this situation. When I retired from my job with the state, I took the early retirement route. At the retirement event, I received a printed thank you for your service while others received clocks with the explanation being I didn’t actually serve my full time. I felt that I had not been recognized equally for the job I had done. I believe that Pat has fulfilled all of the requirements we expect from him except he did it in three years not four. Are all of the actual “Seniors” graduating on time? Give him his due and honor him for his academic dedication and his decision to come back for the team. If he comes back one more year so much the better. Distinguished citizens are often given honorary degrees on graduation day and attend the ceremony. Pat has earned this.
Maybe they could rename it
departing players day?
Define Senior,
I believe technically you are a senior in the eyes of the college based on hours earned not years attended. If you are a senior by definition then why should a 4 year rule apply? I don’t see this as breaking any tradition, just rewarding effort and dedication. Besides, wouldn’t awarding student athletes for their academics be the start of a new and better tradition?
Anytime you start a new tradition, you reject the old one.
That’s what you are advocating. “New and better” is entirely subjective.
I’m not saying you’re wrong or right, I’m just pointing out that whenever you modify something that has been in place a long time, you don’t necessarily make it better.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Apples v Oranges?
Tru, your points re tradition are very well taken, and I tend to agree. However, just to be sure we are comparing apples to apples here, did Mashburn and Chapman earn enough credits to graduate in three years, like Patterson apparently has done? If yes, then I agree with you that—for tradition’s sake—we should treat PPat the same as we did those other fine players. On the other hand, if PPat is on track to graduate this Spring (and we know he isn’t coming back next year), then I say we honor him along with the rest of the graduating players.
The answers ...
… to all your questions are above in the main article. I acknowledged and discussed the questions you have raised.
And to answer your conclusion, so if he comes back, do we honor him again? Or not? We have never before honored a player with eligibility left on Senior Day. Aren’t we throwing that out the window if we honor Patterson?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Yes, we would be throwing that out.
Obviously.
We shouldn’t make an exception for PPat. Senior day is for Seniors in eligibility.
We love you PPat. If you want a senior day for academic standing, go to your graduation. If you want one for basketball, play (or use up) all four years.
You are defending strict tradition
and that is fine but you are not giving any reasons why honoring Patterson under his circumstances has a downside. If a student leaves early for the NBA but has achieved his/her degree, I think all parties win in this one and done world.
I'm not really defending it.
I’m just asking the question.
Downsides? If we change it, should we go back and honor those who missed out back in the day when we did adhere to strict tradition? Is it fair to all those player who came before to change the rules now? What if Patterson comes back for his fourth year of eligibility? I thought I delineated this all above when I laid out the arguments.
There is no “right” answer. The question is which arguments should prevail, and I for one am conflicted.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I don't see the downside to having to "re-honor" PPat if he comes back
If that were to occur, they just do something different for him next year (ie., not going back through the hoop). If I remember right, I thought they did something to honor Mashburn when he left, even if it wasn’t part of the traditional senior day festivities. This would just be the same, in reverse.
If the man is graduating, he deserves to be honored. He’ll get to walk across the stage and shake Lee Todd’s hand and get his diploma – if he qualifies for that “senior day”, surely we can find a way to honor his basketball pursuits.
It's time. . .
I think IF
the decision is made to honor PPat on Senior Day (which I strongly agree should happen), he most likely IS NOT planning on coming back for another year.
That being said, I, like you, do not think it should be set in stone that he can’t come back just because he may have been honored. They can work it out somehow, I am sure, without offending any past members of the team.
I think we have recognized at least a few on Senior Day that didn’t receive a diploma during their 4 or 5 years?? Just askin’.
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
One and Done's don't deserve it
PPat is about the only case where I see it since he is actually graduating.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
I have to go with NO
I love PPat, but senior day is not junior day.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
That's the traditional position.
The argument against that is that Patterson is, in fact, an academic senior. Shouldn’t that count?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
You answer your question above.
He has a year of eligibility left…..without the need of a redshirt.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Also, just for arguments sake....
…the logic to have Pat participate in senior day would also extend to John Wall. Wall is not going to be back, with eligibility left. Wall also is on track to graduate if he stayed 4 years.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
That doesn't hold though...
Patterson will GRADUATE this year. I think that is the distinction that is the new wrinkle to the conversation. It is an academic institution….that should mean something.
True, but the argument is ...
… that Patterson has accrued enough credit to be considered an academic senior. That’s not the same thing.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:59 AM EST up reply actions
Yes.
Earning a degree in less than 4 years is a very difficult task, and Pat should be honored on Senior Day for that accomplishment, as well as his basketball accomplishments. It is a very difficult question, admittedly, but ANY player who is on track to graduate after 3 years should be honored, in my opinion. To deny them that honor is to make light of their academic accomplishments and they are, after all, student athletes.
PPat "is an academic senior. Shouldn’t that count?"
Yes – and it does. It is called getting to walk in a “graduation” ceremony.
At UK games, SR day isn’t about your academic standing. Lots of players over the year never graduated. The issue is basketball related: you have either used up your eligibility or you have not.
No need to change this for PPat anymore than we did for Mash, Walker, Mercer, Rondo, ’Buke, etc.
SR??
Academics First——sports is a way of life and college sports is a way to the pros…..shame on me for not being aware of Mashburn, but if you have done the time, you should reap the rewards. Education should be a priority, not a stepping stone to the pros ……sure the money is to be made on the pro level———but what about the rest of your life??? One good injury after turning pro and where are you for the long road of life?
Fair point.
The thing is, have we really awarded players for academics on Senior Day?
The answer to that is no.
Many of the players honored on senior day did not graduate from the University of Kentucky that year, so the academic argument has been answered by the fact that actual graduation from college has never been a requirement for being honored on Senior Day.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
whether they did or not, they should have
anyone who gets their degree and plays without any mishap their entire playing career with the University should be honored, period. Maybe it is the requirements which are wrong. Maybe they never should have been allowed to honored as Seniors in the first place when they had not yet graduated. Maybe THAT is where the fault lies. I guarantee you that the original idea was to honor graduating seniors, and it was modified to allow 4 yr players to be honored.
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Technically, with a few exceptions,
none of the seniors have graduated. The ones who accomplished fulfilling the requirements of their academic degree would graduate in May, at least a month or more after basketball season was over. The few exceptions would be those who graduated in December.
Actually, we had a few 5 year players graduate before "senior" year.
But that only enforces the point. Sr. day at the basketball game has nothing to do with academics and really shouldn’t. It is about eligibility. If you leave early (ie, before using your 4 years), that is the price you pay.
Life is tradeoffs. Being a great guy and my understanding your decision and supporting it doesn’t mean you don’t have to make the tradeoffs.
I guess he should have thought about that before he decided to sacrifice himself and come back for another year this year.....
please…..he does in 3 years what most wont do in 4 or 5 and does not get our sincerest thanks…..spare me
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Of course it gets sincerest thanks.
But why do we change the rules for him? I don’t think he would want that, do you?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
He gets treated fairly by a well established rule.
Spare you? Spare me!
Being a great guy doesn’t mean we have to change the rules to accomodate his decisions. He is still leaving early. He deserves recognition. Just not in a ceremony devoted to people who are completing their ATHLETIC eligibility with the university. Because he has not.
The people completing their
athletic eligibility could have had their scholarships revoked at the whim and fancy of the University at any time during their career at UK. So much for how much value on education the University shows. A guy passes up a first round pick to complete his education and you are placing all of the importance on staying for an extra year. I would argue he did and I would argue that affording him full honors for that choice might induce others to do the same thing and I believe we all would benefit from that.
OK
So what is the POINT———-this is baloney——-PUT THE WHOLE TEAM OUT THERE FOR SENIOR DAY!!!!!!!!!!!! They work hard and give us great JOY!!!! Tradition for Senior Day——-All I’m concerned with is the WlLDCAT TRADITION!!!!!!!! There are players in the past that basically sat on the bench for 4 years with very little play time……..do we honor them for watching the game?? If that’s the case, what happen to my senior day????
amen there kystrong......
Folks, I will be the first to say that I cannot remember if Mashburn graduated in his time or not. But if he did, then his not being honored was a serious error made by Pitino and his staff, and here is why. We are constantly making the point on this site that this is COLLEGIATE athletics, and not professional. The main focus of college is to get a degree. John Wall and his one and done status aside, Patrick Patterson, by his own words, came here to get a degree and play basketball. He has accomplished both with dignity, accomodation, and class. A model student AND player for this University, who has earned his degree in 1 yr less time than is usually required, and 2-3 years less than some folks take to do it, all while being the leader of this team in some ways since the first day he stepped on the floor. Not honoring this young man as a “graduating senior” is wrong.
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YIPEEEEEEEEEE
THANK YOU ALLBLUCAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do not profess to have a way with words (I JUST CUT TOTHE CHASE) but Allblucat, thank you for your insight and support!!!! GO CATS all the way and you Mr.PATTERSON———-(I watched you play High School ball and you "ROCK!!!) On and off the playing floor!!!!! I know your Mom and Dad are proud (as they should be) You are a class act and I hope you have boocoo success, as I know you will.
We of the BBN will miss you more than you will ever know! Thanks!
Of course he should be honored
The Freshman, Sophmore, Junior and Senior classifications have nothing to do with the number of years you have attended a university but is based on the number of credits earned.
Patterson IS a Senior because he has the credits to be a Senior.
I know of students at UK that have been there 4 years but only have enough credits to be a Junior. It works both ways.
That is not true.
The use of Fr, So., Jr. and Sr. in the basketball program has to do with eligibility and nothing else. The terms have nothing to do with academics. Dodson is a Soph. b/c he has 3 years of eligibility. He might be 80% of the way to graduation, but he is a Soph b/c he has 3 years left to play basketball.
UK had someone in graduate school some years back b/c he transferred or redshirted or something and had already graduated. He wasn’t in the program as a whatever they call a first year grad student in the school he was in. He was in the program as a Senior. This academic senior argument is just silly, b/c there is not now nor ever has been a connection between the use of that term for athletic eligibility and academic status.
I think the system is not broken, so no need to change it. PPat is loved and can be honored, but not as a Senior day player. There is a trade off for leaving a year of eligibility on the table, even if we all understand and love you.
I definitely vote for honoring him on Senior day.
The main problem I have is that we just missed this opportunity last year to honor a student graduating in his 3rd year (Michael Porter). This is an area where I am really torn.
Tru, maybe I’m missing it above, but I don’t see where you have written that Mashburn and Chapman were academic seniors when they left. Do you know if they were or were not? If not, then I believe they are not a good comparison for past reference. But I know Michael Porter is and there may be others.
I think the difference is
No one really knew that Porter wasn’t coming back, so it wasn’t even an issue (granted, no one “knows” PPat isn’t coming back, but it is widely suspected).
Senior Day is about honoring members of the team that have contributed over the course of their UK career. PPat’s contributions + getting his diploma = Senior Day honors in my book. Let’s not be such a slave to “tradition” that it trumps everything else.
It's time. . .
Actually ...
… senior day is, de facto, about honoring players who have exhausted their athletic eligibility. We honor transfer players who have exhausted eligibility (Heshimu Evans is an example) and we honor 5-year players who have often already graduated, but we don’t honor them until they have exhausted their eligibility.
That’s the way it is, and the way it always has been. What you are suggesting is to change that tradition to something else, and the “contributed to the team over the course of their career” criteria would seem to encapsulate everyone.
Tradition is important, and changing it requires careful consideration. Others who would have been so honored under the system you propose were not, and there is a question of fairness there.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Exactly.
There is little dispute over “fairness” when the rules are clear in advance and followed. There is no reason to change them here. They are fair as written. If PPat wants to be treated as a senior, then he needs to use up his eligibility.
someone here is basically asserting that everything is up for grab and tradition means nothing
it is like :“The Constitution is settled law” verses “The Constitution is a living document that can be usurped by whim”. So, we just throw out all tradition because of a popularity contest? Obviously if it is about popularity , PPat gets senior day honors. Unlike many, UKLvrLm and myself have come up with a plan to honor PPat comenserate with his acheivements: http://www.aseaofblue.com/2010/2/24/1324528/patrick-patterson-should-have-his
"all the way"
As far as I know ...
… neither Mashburn nor Chapman were academic seniors. They were academic juniors.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 12:00 PM EST up reply actions
Then I think everyone can agree that
His jersey should be hung in the rafters. :-)
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Heh.
Well, Mashburn’s is. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 12:04 PM EST up reply actions
Chapman Was Soph
Mashburn was indeed a junior.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 22, 2010 12:38 PM EST up reply actions
not an easy answer...
i say Cal should poll Givens, Macy, Mashburn, Chapman and Coach Hall and go with what they say…..
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 22, 2010 9:25 AM EST reply actions
See my post below Memphis....there is a way to fix this and not offend anyone's sense of right and wrong
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Why not have...
recognition on Senior Day for those former players who left early for whatever reason? This could be voted on by the administration, or players could be placed on a ballot for the public to vote. With the one and done rule, there will be many players in this position.
Now if you are honoring those who dedicated themselves to the University for 4 years, you must eliminate everyone else from this honor.
Leaving
early is not the issue……Its did you earn your degree? Patrick has in fact earned his degree or will in May. The question of honoring those who left early is entirely different if they did not earn a degree. I did not think about Porter but like someone said, he was undecided and it was assumed that he would come back. I think though that anyone who will graduate in May deserves the senior recognition. I mean to me its like saying" you cannot walk the graduation line because you got your degree in three years and not four". The question to the university and athletic department will be " Do we honor kids for four years of service, or do we honor them for getting their degree at the University?". My kids PE teacher was a scholarship athlete in college and she told me that its like a full time job. She said keeping up academics and a full time job is hard for anyone. Can you imagine doing it in three years? I cannot. It took my four solid years and part time summer school to graduate in four.
That has never been the case before.
In fact, UK rarely honors seniors who have earned their degree. Most players still have considerable work to do when they are honored to actually graduate. Several have been honored who have not graduated at all.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 12:05 PM EST up reply actions
actually, no....
its my understanding that senior day is about honoring those who have exhausted their athletic eligibility at the University of Kentucky. all those seniors that only ‘played’ 3 yrs because freshman were ineligible to play for the varsity team back in the day were on the roster for 4 yrs ( don’t know if a redshirt rule had even been established in that era) PPat is still eligible 1 more season, after this, if he decides to jump then the forfeit of the last year does not provide for him to be included in senior day activities. Having said that, if Cal and the athletic department want to honor those players who are not coming back, then they can do that after the last home game maybe, or plan something after the tourney, IF they don’t come home with #8, 9, 10…. :-) If coach announces some kind of ceremony after the NCAA, w/o #8, I’m sure he will have no problem gathering a crowd to show appreciation for PPat, D Cuz, J Wall… etc etc. :-)
i know, somewhat of a cop out....
but i figure that those closest to the program, that have been the part of building the tradition, should have the vote…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 22, 2010 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
It comes down to one criterion: Is the player graduating that year?
If so, then they should be honored on Senior day whether it took them 4 years, 3 years, or 5 years to graduate.
The event is called “Senior Day” because 99.9% of the time graduating = being a senior, but in this case there is an exception.
Senior Day isn’t for honoring players with no eligibility left, or players who have contributed to basketball success – it’s for players who are on the basketball team and have finished school (and thus their basketball careers) and it doesn’t matter if they have 2 career points or 2000.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
by JLeverenz on Feb 22, 2010 9:51 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
I totally
agree with this argument. I put the “meant alot to us” for dramatic effect :). You take the emotion out of it, and there is your answer.
this is a good topic tenken
It’s something I’ve been thinking about in the back of my head the last month or so.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
just to be difficult....
you say “are on the basketball team and have finished school” – so if they are not set to graduate due to being short a few hours, should the be “honored”?
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 22, 2010 1:07 PM EST up reply actions
well, "finished school" is a bit imprecise
Which is a bit vexing to me because I was trying to be precise in the post!
In the vast majority of cases it honors the players who have finished their collegiate basketball career. Presumably they are on course to graduate, but since we can’t know that for sure (and don’t need to know it) they should be honored.
In the rare case of a player such as Patterson who is definitely going to graduate in May AND finish his collegiate basketball career then I say he should also be honored.
For example, last year if before Senior Day Michael Porter had known that he was not coming back for his final year then I think it would have been appropriate to honor him since he had completed his degree and had decided to finish his college basketball career.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
i would agree with your second paragraph..
“it honors those who have finished their collegiate basketball career”
we will NOT know with 100% certainty that PP is done until after the season.
here is the other question – say a kid is on the team from day one, is set to graduate in 3 years, never really plays, decides – before the last home game – that he is moving on to the “real” world after being here 3 years - are we having this discussion over him being honored? on paper (other than stats) he would be NO different than PPat but i would argue that we would not recognize him – or even discuss the possibility
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 22, 2010 1:41 PM EST up reply actions
Well, we probably wouldn't have the same discussion
But that says more about what fans discuss then it does about whether he should be honored or not. I think he should – he certainly would be if he stayed one more year as a grad student.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
he certainly would be if he stayed one more year...agree 100%
but that is not the discussion – mashburn, chapman, walker, mercer, etal ALL would have been honored on senior day if they had stayed another 1 (or 2) years..
he should be honored, just not on senior day, imo
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 23, 2010 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
This was me- and I say No.
I was an NCAA athlete who graduated early academically, and did not finish my four years of athletics. I did not participate in Senior Day activities at the end of year three, and did not feel it was my place to do so.
Senior Day for athletics is to honor those individuals who did their four years of work for the team. They should stand with their incoming class (those that are left) and be honored for their service while reflecting on their journey over the last four years. While it is honorable that PPat is graduating, his academic recognition comes the day he wears his cap and gown.
Let us not now think that NCAA Athletics and University Academics are the same thing.
but
why four year activities? Again why does it have to be four? How many people actually graduate in four years? Not that many..matter of fact today’s degrees take four and a half if you don’t do summer school. I guess that is what bothers me the most……..its a techicality. Eric Berry had been at Tennessee for three years and he was so solid in those three years. Outside of Peyton Manning, he was the most impactful player Tennessee has had in twenty years but my argument was that he didn’t have a degree. He hasn’t earned it with sacrifice that others have. Your last statement intrigued me……..“Let us not now think that NCAA Athletics and University Academics are the same thing”…….very interesting statement. Can you expound on that?
I have to agree....
Athletic and academic definitions are not the same. UK basketball seems to define a “senior” as someone who has been a member of the team for 4 years, regardless of academic definition. PPat is a junior in the eyes of UK basketball, and so should not be honored on Senior Day. As DenimUni said, he’ll get honored academically at graduation.
stuck in Illinois, the college basketball wasteland....
What about athletes who transferred in?
If you played 2 years elsewhere, transferred in, sat out a year, and then played two years for UK, do you get recognized in Senior Day? (I think history says yes.) So you can’t say that Senior Day is just for athletes who were members of the team for 4 years.
This is college and academically he is a senior
This is the “University” of Kentucky, and academically Patrick Patterson is a senior. I hope that universities are still academic institutions. He’s earned that in the classroom and not on the court. There is no argument whatsoever for not allowing him to participate on Senior Day. He’s been the model “student athlete” for our school and has earned all the honors that UK can bestow upon him.
seriously........says he is a juinor
WOW! That is very interesting!!!! Oh my! My husband the brainiac was a juinor after a year and a half of college and he was in fact listed a juinor. That is very interesting.
Well at the beginning of the year when the media guide was
printed, he was a junior. He most likely became a senior after the fall semester.
In
my education a juinor had to have 90 hours to be a juinor and 110 to be a senior……I am not sure that he could have earned enough credits in the fall to jump up to a senior in december and then have enough credits to graduate(132 hours at my institution). I bring this up because i am wondering if the athletic department will concentrate on him being a three years student instead of a senior…….I really think when August came about he had to be a senior.
I went to Northern Kentuck University and
the requirements for determining class standing I am 99% sure are the same at UK.
0-29 = Freshman
30-59 = Sophmore
60-89 = Junior
90 and above = Senior.
128 Hours to Graduate.
I have heard various times that he took 18 credit hours in the fall, 18 this semester and he took a class in the winter intersession. This wouls be 39 hours this academic year. He definitely could have 88 or 89 hours in the begining of the academic year (an academic junior), taken 18 hours in the fall (106 or 107 hours total making him a senior) and, with the additional 21 hours he took in the winter and now in the spring, graduate this May.
These arguments are irrelevent.
The media guide lists his year based on eligibility – not academics. Heck, I imagine some players somewhere, thanks to AP and IB credits and the like, start school as a soph academically. But they will go through their career as a Fr, then a So, then a Jr, then a Sr. If they redshirt, they will be one of those twice. Most football players are sophs when they are “Fr.” because of hte redshirt. The label is based on eligibility. It doesn’t matter what PPat was academically. He still has a year to give to UK basketball if he wants. Even if he is in the law school, he will be a “Sr” if he comes back. Which means he isn’t a “Sr.” now.
who gives a tinker's damn about the media guide????
for all we know it’s a misprint…..
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my apologies.....but I still do not know what possible bearing the media guide could have on this
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The media guide ...
… is the official information from the athletics department.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
The point is that a player is listed by his eligibility.
He is not listed by his academic transcript. You aren’t a “senior” until you are in the last year of eligibility. Even if you a 5th year redshirt that graduated in 3 years and now in your second year of law school.
It is a lawyer's tactic.
Most of us are arguing this point on what seems to us to be common sense and just plain right. Legal tacticians will look for their basis in interpretation of the written rules and guidelines. This is an instance that causes those of us who view fairness as a living flexible thing to clash with those who see everything carved in stone.
Nothing like having a baseless standard.
Is it fair that some student at UK who is graduating early and helped kids in Haiti and took in 3 Katrina families doesn’t get honored at Sr day? Sure, he doesn’t play on the team, but those “rules” are limiting to honoring a great UK student. How unfair.
In your touchy feely world without rules or standards, I’m just as right as you.
Fact is (are facts as flexible for you?) there is nothing unfair about following teh same old rules we always have. The issue of unfairness comes into play when we face the next person wanting an exception and we can’t explain why we tell him no since we weren’t really applying any standards when we made the first exception.
As an attorney
you may practice in a field where you argue that the law says black against a fellow attorney who argues that the law says white. Judges do have the discrepancy to rule based on the best argument, referring to precedent whenever possible. While the standards you are holding so dear aren’t baseless, sometimes they are less than clear and sometimes they just don’t fairly apply to all situations.
kywineman
I understand where he is coming from. Ever since he said he was a lawyer! Their is very little respect for the profession! They live in their own little world of books and rules set in stone. There is a whole world that belive in doing the right thing,just because it is the right thing.
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Thanks for showing your lack of respect.
You keep saying “do the right thing.” What you mean of course is do what you want because you like this PPat guy. The rule as we all understand it as practiced over the years isn’t unfair. It isn’t unjust. In fact, it is quite fair and just. If you want a “senior day,” you get it on the last home game of your eligibility. PPat doesn’t qualify.
My 8 and 3 yr old say “it isn’t fair” all the time, when in fact all they mean is “I want a different result.” That is essentially your argument.
Since you think my profession is relevant (somehow, Tru’s isn’t?), let me add that the law is filled with situations where there is discretion, and other situations where there are rules. “Rules” can be unjust (see no tollerance rules in schools on various subjects that lead to absurd results). I can live quite comfortably in both worlds. What I am saying here is that Sr day through tradition and practice means something specific, and I see no need to make exceptions b/c the rule is just as is. The fact is PPat is NOT going to use all of his eligibility up at UK.
PPat hasn’t earned the right to a Sr day, even though he has earned my respect and admiration. He is leaving a year on the table. I have no problem telling him that if he wants to run through a hoop and stand with Momma holding flowers, see you next year.
The real question is what do you do with a kid in the future is a similar situation. I’ll tell you. If we don’t like him as much as PPat, we say tough for you. And feel good about being “fair.”
by JackBluto on Feb 24, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
Fairness?
Your detractors keep going on about fairness. Is it “fair” to every one of the UK players in history who DID NOT play out their eligibility if PPat is honored as a senior on senior day? The whole argument for seems to be based on progressive ideals of “fairness” and “social justice”, where one group benefits, while another does not; IE PPat is feted as a senior on senior day, yet players like Harrelson, Jared Carter, and others are not.
"all the way"
You said enough
with out going on and on. “because you like this PPat guy” I could fill out several paragraphs, but you said it all!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Okay then, what if you're a transfer?
Then if Josh Harrelson makes it through his senior year of basketball at UK, then his year at Southwestern Illinois Junior College counts as a year at Kentucky. I’m fine with that too. I’d be happy to let him participate on Senior Day even though he hasn’t played four years at Kentucky. There’s more than one way to skin a cat and Patrick Patterson shouldn’t be penalized on the basketball court for expediting his academic career. You would think that we would want to celebrate such outcomes and not be so doctrinaire.
by chicagoblues on Feb 22, 2010 10:30 AM EST up reply actions
Is
Josh gone after this year? With his transfer, I truly don’t think he can graduate in May. See here is the issue, its not just being a senior……..its graduating in May.
Josh is a Junior in eligibility.
It has nothing to with graduation. He can enroll in UK as a “junior” or “senior” in hours, or as a grad student in the law school, but he will be a “Senior” next year.
its four years because thats what college is. it takes kids five + years because they dick around. and thats the truth.
the counter argument would be then if a player plays 4 years but will not be graduating (because he is on the 5+ year plan) would he get to participate in senior day? (i say he would- because I separate academics and athletics, and his is an athletic senior)
“Let us not now think that NCAA Athletics and University Academics are the same thing.”
The NCAA and Universities like to hold on to this delusional belief that they have “student athletes”. Its a nice, feel good, spartan type of image of the young man excelling in the classroom and on the court -its just not reality anymore. The NCAA’s financial stake is too great to worry about the “student” of the student-athlete.
JW, DC, EB et al are athletes. They are at UK to play basketball- I know it, ASOB knows it, Coach Cal knows it and so does Todd Lee. Complete your 12 hours of coursework (including summer classes) to check the student box- and then focus on Basketball.
I think it is great of PPat that he is leaving UK with his degree. But how many other thousands of students will leave this May with their degree? He will be honored with them accordingly in May.
Make it though four years of practices and competitions? – then you get athletic senior day.
find me one of those thousands that can defend and rebound as well as Patterson and I say they can have theirs too
"Let us not now think that NCAA Athletics and University Academics are the same thing."
Above is the crux of the argument in both directions. NCAA athletics and University athletics should be held to the same standards. If you are not, then throw out them going to school at all, pay them for playing and make this farce of an association, namely the NCAA, go away.
The term “student athlete” should not be thrown around so loosely. Patterson is the exact model of what a university wants in a student athlete. So, you want us to penalize the kid for being better at academics than others? Since when should a kid get penalized for that This is a slippery slope we are on here folks. We already hold these kids to be something greater than other students because they can play ball. Now we want to set their ball playing accomplishments on a higher plane than their academics??…..I think not.
Here is the solution: and Calipari is great at doing this kind of stuff so he gets to right another wrong at UK since he is now the man……AWARD a senior day ceremony to every past player at UK who did not get one that either earned it through academics, or through 4 yrs of play. Do them all at once, this year……and while you are at it, make sure that Patrick Patterson gets his first and foremost. Then make sure this conversation never has to be had again. The past is past, the future is now!!!
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Feb 22, 2010 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 1 recs
And if I find you one that can- honor him after he does so till the exhaustion of his NCAA ability.
I know what you are getting at-
but we do hold then to different standards
the NCAA is a farce
we do pay them to be here
we are not penalizing anyone for not honoring that which they have not achieved
and we ABSOLUTELY put their ball playing higher than the academics. Does the NCAA care if our team can do calculus? Do we all log onto ASOB because these kids go to class? What if Tru’s daily mail was about how John Wall learned how to discect a frog today?
Wether it is right or wrong- this is about athletcs.
by DenimUni on Feb 22, 2010 11:33 AM EST via mobile up reply actions
Well actually, I would like to read about their academic studies
Are you saying most would not be interested in that DeminUni?
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
This isn't true
its four years because thats what college is. it takes kids five + years because they dick around. and thats the truth.
4 years is a typical/average length of time for many students, but a significant number finish earlier or later. Some work very hard and finish in 3, some finish in 5 or even 6, but it’s not always because they “dick around” – some degree programs require an immense amount of work and many students take advantage of opportunities such as studying abroad that can increase the number of years they spend in college.
The association of class level with years spend in college is a rule of thumb and nothing more.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
I Took 5 Years To Finish 4 Year Degree
I changed majors as a junior.
I wound up up with 131 hours (123 minimum required).
But yes, I goofed around, too.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 22, 2010 11:48 AM EST up reply actions
Indeed, that is right.
UK has had many five-year seniors. Jeff Brassow, if I recall, is such a one.
He was honored on his last year of athletic eligibility. He was a 4-year “senior” the year before.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
Also Jeff Sheppard
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Right.
Jeff Sheppard also.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:57 AM EST up reply actions
Most of the football team redshirts.
Once they start playing, they are called “Fr, So, Jr. and Sr.” Sometimes people call them “redshirt freshman” to indicate that they are two years out of high school. But no one asks how many hours they completed so that the label matches the academic record. I can’t remember who, but we had a basketball player in grad school once, but he called a “senior.” I know UGa (I live in Atlanta) has had some players on both football and basketball recently in grad school b/c of the 5 year careers due to injury or redshirts.
People who graduate in 5+ years aren't always "dicking around"
A lot of it is people who maybe changed majors, or had majors that require much more class work than a typical 4 year degree.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
DO NOT PENALIZE PPAT!!!
if the university has made mistakes, ie: Mashburn, et al???…in the past…let them admit the mistake and try to make it up to those players…but PPAT should be MORE than honored for his contribution(s) and determination!!!…we are sooo fortunate to have had him on our campus and team…let the celebration begin on Senior Night!!!…then we’ll get on with winning the SECT and the NCAAT!!!…GO BIG BLUE!!!
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please."...Mark Twain.
by KYCatwoman on Feb 22, 2010 10:39 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
There is no penalty.
Don’t go there. UK is not penalizing anyone.
The requirements for senior day in the past have essentially been the last year a player is eligible to compete at UK, whether they graduate, are graduating, or not.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:50 AM EST up reply actions
another thought...
maybe we should poll the players…past and present???
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please."...Mark Twain.
i said that above....
and was accused of having no backbone :)
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 22, 2010 1:13 PM EST up reply actions
and the students...
i think i’m done now…
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please."...Mark Twain.
PPAT is a TRUE Senior and should be recognized on Senior Night
or should the University of Kentucky punish him for receiving his degree in Three Years! That would certainly advance the state of Education at the University.
Is not "punishment" if he is not honored.
That is hyperbole.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
How would it be a punishment?
I do not follow that logic at all. Senior day is for seniors, and if Pat is honored, UK would be making an exception to do so….if he is not, it is because he is a junior…..no “punishment” anywhere.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
There is no logic to follow.
Nobody is being punished. Patterson arguably simply does not meet the requirements to participate. If he really wants to participate, he can always stay another year.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:51 AM EST up reply actions
We are in agreement
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Indeed we are.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:53 AM EST up reply actions
Krebs is a Senior, but 3 years as a walk on, does that count?
This is getting too picky. I say let the Athlectic Department decide.
The crux of the issue
1) We want to celebrate our BB heroes and see them off properly
2) Not many of those heroes make it to Senior night any more…its just the nature of the beast
3) Senior night loses some of its meaning when most of the guys up there are walk-ons or bench warmers.
4) There is no alternate method to recognize those players who are leaving early
4a) If an alternate method existed, how do you decide who is worthy?
Personally, I don’t really have an opinion one way or another about Patterson being honored as a Senior on Senior night. Senior night has been heading down hill for years and will probably continue to do so. I do, however, wish there should be some way to honor players who have been important to the program before they leave….
Patterson Is A Junior
Carter was a senior (in his 4th year at UK).
Krebs is a senior and deserves recognition.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 22, 2010 11:46 AM EST reply actions
Well ...
… Patterson is probably an academic senior.
He is a junior insofar as his eligibility is concerned.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:47 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe So
Juniors aren’t recognized on senior day.
Marquis Estill wasn’t recognized in 2003.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 22, 2010 11:49 AM EST up reply actions
If you will read the original post above ...
… you will see that I have already discussed this.
But yes, players with eligibility left are generally not honored on senior day. It has nothing to do with their class, or their academic status.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
Exactly
It is supposed to be the last home game these guys can play. A junior still has a year of home games to potentially play in.
And that is not a slap at Pat people, it is just how I interpret “Senior Day”
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
I Agree
Patterson shouldn’t be honored on Senior Day in 2010.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 22, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions
Carter Is One Exception
Possibly because his extra year was not guaranteed but possible via NCAA petition.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 22, 2010 12:41 PM EST up reply actions
What's the "official" word from the University at this point?
I am leaning toward letting the man participate as he is graduating, but am torn.
No matter where you're at, there you are
I have no idea.
I imagine it would take someone from the athletics department to provide us with the current policy, which I strongly suspect is based on remaining athletic eligibility.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 11:56 AM EST up reply actions
Then it needs changed
if that is the only criteria for determining how to “label” a player a senior, then it is wrong. And if I have seen what I think I have seen out of Cal, then he will try to right this situation.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Maybe, who knows.
But I don’t agree that it is wrong. You have to draw the line somewhere, and in an athletic program, drawing the line at eligibility makes plenty of sense.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 12:18 PM EST up reply actions
And that is why it is wrong....only using that criteria in a
“collegiate athetic program” is a mistake. The fact that it is a college has to enter in to it somewhere, or else why should they be there at all…..if no educational criteria are involved, just send them to a farm team instead
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Okay, well ...
… should we start honoring players on senior day when they graduate? There have been many players that have graduated before they exhausted their eligibility. And when the next senior day comes around in their last year, do they get two bites at the apple?
Alternatively, we have honored several players on senior day who never have graduated. How is that fair in your new criteria?
The policy as it is, whatever it is, is not “wrong.” There is no right or wrong in this case. Nobody is being disrespected, or short-changed. Trotting out players for special recognition is a process that you can place any criteria you want on and be more or less right.
I don’t necessarily disagree with your criteria, but I don’t necessarily agree with it either. It creates its own set of problems that look no better than the ones created by the current policy.
And in reality, college athletics is, and has been, the farm system for the NBA for many years. The idea that academics is more important than the athletics is patently absurd on its face. All you have to do to maintain an athletic scholarship is do a minimum of course work, and you don’t even have to graduate to get honored as the current system stands.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 22, 2010 12:30 PM EST up reply actions
I am in total agreement where you define college athletics as the farm system
for the NBA. Maybe the better way to put this is as such:
I would be willing to make a fairly significant wager that when this idea was developed, it was for Seniors who earned their degree in the 4 years of eligibility they have under NCAA rules. I believe that the ceremony changed when players started taking more than 4 years to graduate, and with many of those players leaving for the NBA, they never came back to finish, so anyone who played 4 years became a “senior”.
Flash Forward to today, now we have players who no longer stay in college for more than a year, or two, or three……they forgo their remaining years of eligibility to have a career in the NBA. They are removed from this process and rightly so, because they never intended to remain in the first place if the opportunity became available to leave sooner than their eligibility expired.
Then we have Patrick Patterson. A young man who has had the opportunity to leave and then returned to GRADUATE from college. He earned his degree in 3 years, not 4 by applying himself to his studies and doing additional coursework in the summer. His standing with the team has never faltered, and he will finish both his academics and his playing at the University in 3 years, AHEAD of schedule. UK gets the use of his services from the day he enrolled in school to the day he graduates. By any and almost all accounts, that’s the very definition of a senior.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Feb 22, 2010 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 1 recs
I totally agree with your thoughts about PPat, but
I will surprised, maybe shocked is a better word, if it happens. I think that the decisions to create the CATSPY’s in 2003, were brought on by this growing dilemma.
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Making the rule fit the exception ...
… is never wise.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
exactly...
here is a question i posted above – say a kid is on the team from day one, is set to graduate in 3 years, never really plays, decides – before the last home game – that he is moving on to the "real" world after being here 3 years – are we having this discussion over him being honored? on paper (other than stats) he would be NO different than PPat but i would argue that we would not recognize him – or even discuss the possibility
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 22, 2010 1:44 PM EST up reply actions
why not? it was done befroe for the guys that DID NOT graduate, and that is what got us in this mess
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Because ...
… it is unfair to others, and it is of questionable value in the instant case.
Do you suppose Patterson would ask for the rules to be changed to give him one more accolade out of the thousands he has already received?
I feel confident he would not.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
no, Patrick will never mention it.....ever......just one more reason it should be done
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
It will not be done, I believe.
It never has been before. It would be unfair to others. Patterson would not want that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Patrick Patterson is a senior
And so is any other student (athlete or otherwise) who has earned enough credits to qualify as such. Period.
Suggesting that there are “academic seniors” and “athletic seniors” is completely ridiculous. The “Freshman-Sophomore-Junior-Senior” nomenclature that we use to count down an athlete’s remaining years of eligibility is just a convenient shorthand, nothing more or less than that.
It’s not called, “Exhausted Eligibility Day” or “Soon to be graduated Senior Day.” It’s called Senior Day. As for the fine points, simply put, that should be up to the players themselves to decide. An athlete with senior standing should be given the opportunity to choose to participate or not with the understanding that they can only receive the honor once.
If a player somehow exhausts his/her eligibility without attaining senior status, then they should not be so honored. Whether or not they ultimately fulfill their graduation requirements is moot.
by bkkcat on Feb 22, 2010 1:12 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
It is not "ridiculous"
First, Patrick Patterson is “officially” a junior as far as the athletic department is concerned. Look it up.
Second, five year players did not celebrate Senior Day in their senior year, so whether you call it “exhausted eligibility day” or not, that is what it is in fact, and has been since they started Senior Day in 1903.
Finally we have honored non-graduating seniors along with seniors who have graduated throughout UK’s history. Senior status within the athletic department is when the player has exhausted his eligibility. That is a fact.
How the athletic department defines a “senior” is what is operative here, right or wrong.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
agree....
however, with the changing face of college bball, the definition needs to be well defined (as best it can be) to maintain (or tweak, if necessary) tradition…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 22, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions
It's still ridiculous
I would be stunned if the athletic department even attempts to actually define or formally ascribe class standing to an athlete. Programs, publications, etc all use the Fr-So-Jr-Sr shorthand because it’s something we understand, not as an official designation of status.
Presumably a significant proportion of 5 year players were in fact seniors in their 5th year, so a blanket statement applying to 5th year players is inappropriate. The few players who were seniors in both their 4th and 5th (or, possibly their 3rd, 4th, and 5th) years de facto chose to be honored (as is traditional) at their last home game.
As for your final point, I’m not sure we’re disagreeing. I suggested that all seniors (graduating or not) should be honored on senior day. You counter that we have always honored non-graduating seniors along with seniors. I agree that’s a fact, but thank you for restating it.
Fundamentally neither the athletic department or the NCAA is in a position to define the class status of any athlete. That’s a fact. Look it up.
Prepare to be stunned, then.
That’s all I can say. History on this matter is crystal clear.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
then it is time for a change, and as I said before Cal is just the man to do it......
if it hasnt been whispered in his ear by now it should have been……or shouted from the rooftops……
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Calipari cannot do it.
And he probably will not try.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I hope he does.......so while I agree that he may not......I really hope he does
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
How is this handled in FootBall?
It seems that there are more “Grad Student” players in FootBall. How is the question of honoring an “Academic Senior” with remaining eligibility handled there? That may be a place to look for a precedent.
Regardless if PPat is honored as a “Senior” on Senior’s Day, I hope that CoachCal and the University find a special way to allow the fans to express their sincere gratitude to this amazing man. He has represented the University and it’s fan base in an amazing way — with grace, dignity, community awareness, and amazing play on the court.
Wither it is in a Senior Day ceremony or some other venue, we owe this man and his parents a hearty thanks and a tremendous send off!!!
Football does it the same way as basketball.
It is based on eligibility. Always has been. You are senior when you have no more years of eligibility. Your academic progress is not relevent. You might be technically eligible with no hope to graduate or you might already be a grad student. You are still just a “Senior” who has taken advantage of the 5 years rule.
Yes...
He’s getting a degree. If he wasn’t a basketball player and did not have desires for advanced degrees, then he would be leaving the university and essentially be a senior. He certainly shouldn’t be penalized for playing basketball.
I would leave it in his hands. His choice.
Also, he’s the only player in the past 10 years that I wouldn’t mind seeing his jersey hanging in the rafters at Rupp. Esp. if we win the tourney. He has been that great for the university and has been a major factor in leading out of the Dark Ages (Gillespie, not Tubby)
"Esp. if we win the tourney" ???
The “Unforgettable’s” didn’t win on paper. There are a lot of things to consider other than that. Just sayin’. :-)
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Patrick Patterson endured some of the absolute worst times for Ky.
basketball with tremendous grace and poise. He deserves every honor we can show him. (And academically, he is most certainly a senior. Did anybody ever say you have to play for 4 years to be honored on senior day? What a silly argument to even have.)
Senior Day is most certainly about sending our beloved players off into the world. A time to say, Thank you for playing Kentucky basketball. Thank you for all the hard work. Thank you for the sheer joy of watching you play. Thank you for the glory you brought to our state and our university.
Go off into the world knowing that we love and appreciate everything you’ve done for us.
Maybe the only real problem now is the name, Senior Day.
I say any athlete (like John Wall or Cuz) deserves to be honored on their last home game at Kentucky. If they’ve decided to go, we should honor them. It’s a very small thing to give back to kids who’ve given so much to us.
If you want to argue the whole eligibility thing and the the NCAA rules and kids leaving early, that’s a whole other story.
This is about saying thank you to great kids and honoring their gifts to us.
All this is wonderful, and true.
But this becomes a question of fairness to players past.
I will ask you the same question I have asked others — Do you think Patrick Patterson would want UK to change the rules to give him one more accolade?
I daresay he would not.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
So just because we did the wrong thing in the past, we should keep
doing it in the future?
Surely that’s not your argument.
It is the crux
of most of the opposition expressed here just worded a little differently.
Why was it wrong?
That seems to be the question that has not been answered by the proponents of change. You have assumed a moral condition for the question that does not exist.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
It's funny
because when Patterson first arrived,some thought he was one and done,and many thought 2 years top.Now the lad has been here for an unexpected third season and on pace to graduate.He could have left for the NBA long ago,but decided to stay to get an education and improve his draft position.I know Patterson has ZERO regrets and is enjoying this season just as much as the rest of us.
If he has enough hours to to a Senior,then he is a Senior.
I say we ask Pat
If he wants to be honored because he will get his degree and will leave the university in May, let’s do it.
agreed......and to be honest, I will be surprised if Cal does not find a way to pull this
off, no matter what any of us think
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Do you really think ...
… he would say “Yes, change the rules just for me?”
I don’t.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
But they very likely exist.
Just because I don’t know doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
There are lots of things I don’t know, but most of them can raise up like a grisly bear and kick butt.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
well, I took from your point that whatever rules may or may not exist,
they may be so far back that they dont even apply to the situation as it is today…..not that we are trying to circument them or anything
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Here is a solution:
If you dont get enough credit hours toward your degree each year you dont get to move forward in athletic eligibility as well as academic…..then it wont matter , because they will both mean the same thing the way they used to.
None of this would have happened if no one had tinkered with the system when players who had used up their eligibility started not graduating in that time. It used to be a class here or a class there, they could maybe finish up over the summer and be done…..now they leave in 4 years with another 2-3 to complete before they get their degree…..THAT is why there is a problem. But hey, why should we honor Patrick for graduating in 3 years, carrying this team for most of those three years, staying through 2 coaching changes, and returning for this year, when he could have graduated in December and been done?? Doesnt look like he earned the right to be called a Senior to me
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
You are making an appeal to emotion here.
Try to consider the fact that the main function of tradition is a fair and repeatable process.
Kentucky would not be disrespecting Patrick Patterson if it considers him not qualified for Senior Day. Based on 107 years of history, he clearly is not.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
History is simply a record of the past......and an indicator of the future....not the future set in stone
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
We have a lot of traditions around Kentucky.
Are you willing to toss them all out as well?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
not necessary.....when THIS tradition was started it was started for graduating seniors......
it changed over the years because coaches became lax in requiring stringent academic structure for their players……this changed over time….it can be changed again
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But I have come to the conclusion it should not be.
Patrick would not want it so, and he doesn’t need another accolade. He can be honored any number of other ways, but I have concluded that senior day should be reserved for players who exhaust their college careers playing for Kentucky.
I was undecided before, but I no longer am.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
This is as much about all of those players who got accolades but never finished their
coursework as it is about Patrick…….it has to count for something along the way that they did their schoolwork……otherwise the idea of a “scholarship” is a joke. the word scholar has to enter in to it sometime
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Or maybe we should throw out the word UNIVERSITY at the beginning of everything
associated with the program…….???
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ask any school official about their stance on this question:
What is the University of Kentucky?? Is it a basketball program that happens to offer a degree for completing coursework, or is it a University that happens to have a basketball program?
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Here is an even better question,
Do parents send their kids to college to get an education or to play sports?? Some will answer the question each way, but none will say that collegiate athletics can exist without academics…..none. It isnt 1965 anymore. Coaches shouldnt be allowed to make phone calls and get players out of tests and out of showing up for classes and the like……surely there are enough of us out there who still value the combination of an education with athletics to see that.
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and it's not about need.....it's about earning the right to be honored.....
that’s where this whole damn thing is screwed up……no one even recognizes how much EXTRA work Patrick had to do to accomplish this. He was on campus every summer in class….doing everything that needed to be done to make himself better in the classroom and on the court…..and no one wants to recognize that accomplishment??…..how incredibly self-important we have become……
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I think you are taking Tru's belief as a personal affront to Patrick
Not the case at all. I’d love to see Pat’s jersey hanging in Rupp one day….and I think that is much higher praise than making an exception for Senior Day.
Perspective……
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
bt
I’m not taking Tru’s opinion any different than all the rest. He has his right as you or I do!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
That is what is great about ASOB
We can all debate and discuss and still be friends in the end!
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
I am not mad folks.....I am disturbed at the fact that some on here seem to be perfectly willing to
allow the fact that we are a University to be a secondary factor here…..that’s all…..it still should be about it being a University
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He will be honored.
With a diploma, and a graduation ceremony.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Well, it counts.....not like it should.....
but hey…..we do have our tradition to fall back on.
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Then why do Freshman play basketball?
Isn’t it unfair that Freshman used to not play and now they do? Surely some of those players could have had much better career stats. But, when someone had the novel idea to let Freshman play varsity, tradition went out the window.
Those who are steadfast in their “that is the way it always has been and so it shouldn’t change” thinking are overlooking the fact that things can be better, regardless of tradition. Looking forward, this would be a great way to honor true student-athletes who graduate in 3 years, regardless of what has happened in the past.
That was an NCAA rule change, was it not?
Apples and oranges, I’m afraid.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
More so than the example..
my point was that tradition can be changed or new tradtion started for the better.
So what is the replacement rule?
All academic seniors who may get to graduate in May if they complete the semester get to be honored on senior day? In addition to normal eligibility seniors? Only if you are expected to go pro? Only if you are expected to go pro or otherwise not return for the end of your athletic eligibility?
Any of these may be workable. Or they may just cause a headache down the road. On the other hand, the current rule, recongizing only those players finishing their athletic eligibilty at UK, seems both fair and a good, just rule. We may love players that don’t qualify, and we may agree with their decision to not complete their athletic eligibility, but why not have one ceremony limited to those ending their career because they used it all up UK? I like the current rule.
I have no problem telling great players like Mash and PPat (and maybe Bledsoe, and maybe Orton, and many others to come) that the reason you did not get recognized during Sr. Day is because you left a playing year on the table.
my apologies about before Jack......but I think when you take academics completely
out of the picture, you are sedning the wrong message…..that’s all…..please forgive me if I offended…..it was not my intent…..I just think that this is all going in the wrong direction is all….
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No problem allblucat.
I understand the desire to recongize this academic thing. I have been to games where we announced players who made all academic team SEC or All-American from the sport playing and other sports during a break. We don’t have a pre-game celebration for a soph who made academic all-american though.
I think we are losing sight of the segmented aspect of this. Sr Day is a recognition of players that end their college playing eligibility at UK. That is good group to recongize before the last home game. It is logical, and it thanks them not just for playing but for playing until they couldn’t play anymore. PPat is leaving a year on the table if he goes pro. As much as I love him, I like the current “rule” as it appears to be. I like saying, if you want this honor, you must use it ALL up. In the future, there will be fewer such guys than in the past, but that’s ok.
Amen ABC
As I mentioned early this morning to ten. I agreed completely and this article should be on the front page. By the looks of sheer number on comments. I was right. Go Cats
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Why would you
ask Patrick? You know He would say no! He is just that kind of young man. The more reason to give him the credit He deserves>
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
he never would oldcat......never.....and that, like I said above is another reason he should get it
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This is the thing
that sits us apart from the rest of the country. We can have this talk. I visited “Anchor of Gold” this morning and there has not been one comment since the game. They must be licking their wounds
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
I think some of you are getting too emotionally wrapped up in this
I’d rather he win a title and get his jersey retired….just saying….
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
it's not so much emotion coop as it is the fact that we are really big on tradition around here until it suits us not to be
and by around here I mean UK. When tradition is not something that works for us, it is discarded. When it comes to something like this, where we have the opportunity to do the “right” thing, people want to hold on to that tradition like it is going to keep them warm on a cold winter’s night. Not gonna happen.
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What tradition have we discarded recently?
Just asking.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
no one said anything about recently......but it has happened......otherwise we dont improve ourselves
or our program
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Has it?
I’m curious to know what, and when.
But even if it has, I think our first duty is to fairness. Patterson should be dealt with by the same rules as every other player, no matter what your perception of his value is.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Do you think the players that were the early recipients of this honor felt the same way
when they saw the first group of non-graduates get honored?
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I don't know what you mean.
Graduation, as far as I know, has never been the criteria for senior day. In fact, I would wager that from 1903 to present day, 99% of the players honored on senior day were not graduates of the University of Kentucky yet.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Where's Forty???.....the stats on this have to be somewhere......
I would take the bet about the 99% part…..I cannot believe our graduation rates are that low
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I graduated with Tayshaun Prince
There is one ABC….lol…..
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
I graduated with Jules Camara
My stepdad was totally starstruck watching him walking around in his cap and gown – lol!
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Feb 22, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions
there's 2....and both in the last 10 years.......we are on a roll!!!!!.......lol
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I had a class with him
He really didn’t care to be there…..haha
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
I had a class with Bogans and Estill
and I never even saw Bogans bring anything in with him – except for a sack of Long John Silvers from time to time.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Feb 22, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions
I had a class with Wayne Turner too
He was a good guy……I remember some girl making a fool of herself beggin him for an autograph once…..he was nice about it
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Tru means that
they were not graduates on Senior day.
ABC meant graduates as in they were scheduled to graduate that semester.
You two are talking about 2 different situations.
I would even go so far as to say they graduated in the same year
I understand going back and picking up a class or two in the summer to finish, that can happen……
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That's what I mean.
I don’t think anyone cared about whether or not the player actually graduated, since nobody knows for 100% sure that will happen by the time senior day comes around.
Graduation has never been a requirement, or even a factor, in senior day. As long as you are in academic good standing, you are eligible for senior day on the last year of your athletic eligibility, or so it has been for the last 107 years.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
However, IMNSHO, it should be. Graduating has to mean something at a University.....
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
and getting a diploma in 3 years while going through everything that
young man has for this program should mean more
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But it doesn't.
And I don’t agree that it should.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
fair enough....theres room for us all to be wrong every once in a while ;-)
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Tru
If the big blue nation voted, He would be the first out of that hoop!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Not every popular vote is right.
Before we let PPat do Sr Day, tell me what the new rule is. Remember, it has to be applicable to the unknown future. What is the rule after this year?
Do we have to have a new rule???
why can we not treat this as what it is?……an extremely rare circumstance that requires being addressed and move on
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I can think of a reason or two.
Next time it comes up, we have to have this debate again. Does the outcome turn on how much we like the kid? Whether he played under Billy G?
Tradition alone isn’t enough to justify the rule you have argued (I think). I say, if we can’t articulate the new rule that is more just than the current rule, it probably isn’t such a bad old rule or good new rule.
Sorry allblu
I can’t let you off the hook with the unstated exception rationale. I’m an economist by undergrad degree and a lawyer. Both of these fields require me to value predictability in the application of the rules. :)
OK then I will submit to you this,
Rules have exceptions, by nature they exist. Could Patrick Patterson not be the noteworthy exception to the rule that by his accomplishments deserves the accolade?
Dont change the rules, put an asterisk beside it, whatever, but if there was ever a kid who earned it, the this kid has.
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Call him a "Third Year" Senior if you must
but if there was ever a case to be made for an exception, not an unstated exception, but an exception nonetheless, then this must surely be it?
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I will answer.
And the answer is no. His achievements are not novel. Other players in Kentucky basketball history have graduated in thee years, I am certain, although I can’t remember who. I know it has been done in other sports, and they were not granted senior days at that point.
Patrick’s academic achievements are laudable, but they are not by any means unprecedented. Nor are his athletic achievements. But even if they were, that would not be a reason to separate him from all those who have come before.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
please find me the last UK basketball player to graduate in three years and
contribute to the basketball team all 3 years he was here. I have tried and cannot find anyone that fits that description. Anywhere.
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Irrelevant.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
Wait.
Okay, Jamal Mashburn.
But it’s still irrelevant.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 23, 2010 11:33 AM EST up reply actions
hehehe....ya just aint gonna let me have this one are you??....lol
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Tru
If our graduation rates are that low. That is more reason to honor a man who really went to school for the right reasons.
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
I don't believe I mentioned graduation rates.
Senior day is held months before graduation, so we don’t know who will graduate when we hold it. That’s why it is based on eligibility, not actual graduation, because graduation comes after the season.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I know I have heard the phrase"on track to graduate" before
where is that used???
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It means ...
… that the player qualifies for being “in good academic standing.” You have to be “on track to graduate” in order to remain in good academic standing, and eligible to receive an athletic scholarship.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
My understanding is that "on track" is pretty lax
when compared to reality also. So a player can be on track, and might have to really pile it on after the season to actually graduate. Which is why so few “seniors” actually graduate despite being eligible to play on Sr Day. (By few, I actually mean a minority – I don’t know the stats for sure, but I would bet only around 80% of Sr Day players or fewer actually graduate in the big 2 sports of Football and Basketball nationwide at the Div I level.) Though I could be off. After all, 63.8 % of all statistics are made up right there on the spot.
I think where we differ on this is...
…I don’t think there is a “right” or “wrong” way. Tradition isn’t right or wrong, it is just something that has evolved into being. Now, if tradition is changed, so be it. But, and I agree with Tru, if you start making exceptions…..it ceased to be tradition.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Don't get me wrong...
….I love Pat more than one man can love another man that he has never met in a non-gay or stalker way….but he is a junior
/ducks head
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Im not throwing anything....lol....
only thing I have is this hat and it has won too many games to be treated so callously
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
I dont' see it that way though
How is he being wronged?
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
like I said above, I wont state verbatim that Patrick himself is indeed being wronged
But if we are so rooted in tradition that we cannot allow an exception in this case, when the young man in question is a graduating player( even though I personally think it is a tragedy to call it an exception), then we have become something lees than honorable in this case
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Do you think Michael Porter should be honored at Senior Day?
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
if he graduated, then he should.....yes
I suggested above to bring back every player that did not get honored in the past, who graduated school, and have them honored as well…..it is only fair…..and can you imagine the publicity Cal could work from that??
Make a statement that he is trying to right something that has been wrong in the past and will not be done wrong in the future??
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Well ...
… at least you are consistent, if not realistic. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
hehehe....I am a member of the Big Blue Nation
since when is being realistic a requirement???
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I know your opinion is rooted in the past....and I understand that
but our past here at UK is checkered at best, while being extremely successful, we have our share of bad times to look back on……this is an opportunity to make something better than it is now…..make academics mean something to everyone, and not just to the professors……it would be an excelletn move for the administration to show they care about more than banners……( admittedly I know that last part was a little unrealistic for UK…..lol)
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
I don't get how our "Checkered Past" matters..
….in terms of Pat and senior day
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
my point being that the past is not always good
traditions have their place…..but they should not prevent us from doing something good
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Sanctions are not tradition
Just saying
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Really?
Just read some other blogs.
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Never been to Duke's
But you don’t have to go far to read how we will be sorry when the NCAA removes all our wins under Cal.
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
no, they arent.....but a lot of things have been done here at UK
and a lot of other places, just because “that’s how we have always done it”…..things can and do change
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Not really rooted in the past.
It’s rooted in fairness.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
That was filled with typos....sorry
Long day today……
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Reasonable Solution...
Skip Senior Day 2010… Bring PPat and his family back in the fall to raise his Jersey to the rafters!!!!
Sr Nite
OK——each of know how we feel——Senior Night (what does it really mean?) another standing ovation! I think Patterson knows how we feel, if he doesn’t shame on us. We know how he feels about U.K. and its basketball program and for this WE ARE THANKFUL!!!! As I said somewhere before “P-PAT” YOU ROCK!!!!!!!
I will sum this up with this analogy folks
Traditional Thanksgiving says that my wife goes into the kitches, stuffs a turkey and puts it into the oven at 4 am, and she cooks it until 2 that afternoon and we all sit down to eat it.
Last year, to give my wife a break from some of her “traditional” duties, I deep fried our turkey, grilled our ham, and baked the sweet potatoes on the grill as well……..now, that was possibly considered a “non-tradional” way of fixing Thanksgiving Dinner, but we still had turkey, ham and sweet potatoes on the table when Grace was said. The tradition lives on, but possibly in a different form……and my wife REALLY loved me for it…..
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and not one person complained about the food not being "traditional".....just sayin ;-)
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Fairness is never an issue with Thanksgiving.
I’m just sayin’.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
so what you are saying is....
we are really big on tradition around here until it suits us not to be
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 23, 2010 9:44 AM EST up reply actions
I think that collegiate athletics is that way as a whole.....and maybe yes, what you say is true to a point
think about this…..People are going to manipulate whatever system is in place for any reason. They do it with taxes, with insurance, with laws, etc. Calipari himself is a master of using whatever he can within the guidelines that the NCAA has to gain an advantage, and he well should. So now we look at this situation. This kid, for whatever reason, hasnt taken one shortcut along the way. He has gone to every class, summers and all, done off season training rituals that could kill some people, and in the mean time has been a star on this club for three seasons and accomplished it all while learning his fates from three different coaches. There is no higher level of sacrifice to this University or this team. That earns him whatever exception we have to make, if indeed we have to make one. And based upon what DeWayne Peevy e-mailed me earlier today, the University may already be looking at it.
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actually, i was quoting you...
from above :)
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 23, 2010 1:29 PM EST up reply actions
kinda figured that, I just wanted to try and clarify myself a little....
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And in closing
I would like to say. It would be a shame and disgrace,after honoring all the players in our glorious past who sat on the bench for four years. And then say NO to a young man who busted his butt for three years to graduate early and still lead our team . I’m out of here>
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
Tru
He should not have to ask. I don’t think they ask anyone else.
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
He wouldn't want it.
And he’d be right not to.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I don't think
he would ever ask, he is way to humble. You have to think that deep down, it is something that he would love to do.
I think it would be shameful
to not allow him senior day honors, if he has no plans to come back. I mean, if he has already graduated in 3 years, why in the world would we require him to come back and start on a new degree, only to waste his time and run out of eligibility in the process. He’d be wasting his time, as his NBA stock is already sky high.
Also, college is tough to get through, even graduating in 4 years. College is tough, even without playing a high-profile varsity sport. He’s graduating THREE years, while playing the most prestigious sport in college. What harm would honoring an upstanding young man do?
by UKalltheway2010 on Feb 22, 2010 4:24 PM EST reply actions
ummm…. if he graduated, he doesn’t have to take classes to play his senior year. Only if players have not completed their degree are they required to take classes throughout their athletic eligibiltiy.
Seriously?
So if a player graduates in three years, one of which was a redshirt year, he can come back and play for two more years without being enrolled in the university? Therefore also without needing a scholarship?
I thought they had to be enrolled in graduate studies.
I wonder if “basket weaving” has a graduate study?
"all the way"
Why would we not honor our players? I think the question is
as simple as that. They’re ours. We’re proud. We want a chance to say so before they leave.
Do people really want to say, We had a rule, and we won’t change it. We simply can not honor you, because the rule in the past is more important to us than honoring you.
We will honor our players.
But we don’t give them honors they have not earned. Patrick Patterson is not an athletic senior. He has not earned the right to be called one, nor stand as one.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
i am with you tru....
if it was 100% clear PPat was leaving after this season, i would be all for a special recognition after the game, but we will just not know this until too late.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 23, 2010 9:47 AM EST up reply actions
It ain't rocket science
Make the rule simple: To be honored on “Senior” Day, you must:
1. Be on track to earn your degree by the end of the calendar year AND state your intention to forgo remaining eligibility. Make him sign it in blood, figuratively speaking.
OR
2. Complete your eligibility.
To compare PPat to Mash or Chapman doesn’t make sense. I don’t believe Mashburn graduated after three years (I’m sure someone will correct me if I’m wrong) and I’m pretty certain Chapman didn’t in two. It’s a tough call, but I say PPat deserves to be recognized.
I may be paranoid, but that doesn't mean they're not out to get me.
That's pretty much ...
It is apparently an AND, not an OR. Sorry.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Has anyone been recognized on Senior day and not played for years of College Basketball?
To my knowledge, the answer is no. As far as I am concerned, you need to be a senior or higher AND have played 4 years of college ball. I realize Patrick is a special person, but if he doesnt play for 4 years and is recognized, I think it diminishes not only Senior Day, but those that came before him and actually played their 4 years of eligibility. Most disagree, but I am ok with that.
not necessarily four years
but you need to have exhausted your eligibility. that now covers pre-1970 players, and transfers.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Feb 23, 2010 12:28 AM EST up reply actions
Take
Patrick Patterson and our love for him out of the equation…..for any other player……..then I still say that person deserves it. Until I hear an actual rule that states its for four year players I will think that. Senior Day is for “seniors” no matter how many years it takes to be a senior……..you must graduate within that academic year IMO. We have to look at the reason that its done……to recognize someone for getting a degree at the University while playing basketball for UK. That has always been my belief.
and you have made my point....
we would NOT be having this discussion if it were any other player. if it were a pine riding player that was set to graduate in 3 years and had a big time job offer waiting for him so that he was going to forgo his last year of eligibility, we would not be having this debate….imo
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 23, 2010 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
i agree that porter
should be honored in some way – still its not the same as perry and ramon who stuck it out 4 years. and if we did honor porter, do you bring back meeks….
i did think it was nice that rhondo came back for crawford and bradley’s senior day….maybe there is some consideration for starting there.
in the end, we ALL agree that pp and some that leave before their eligibility expires need to be honored – guess its just finding the right way. my gut is that it is NOT senior day – but in the end, the kid in indianapolis that is sick deserves more of out thoughts than this issue…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 23, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions
I think
its a question of eligibilty or degree earned…….that seems to be the whole kit and kaboodle. To me its degree earned. That is why I am against Meeks, Mashburn, or anyone else who did not earn the degree.
then there were some 4 year players
who were honored that did not graduate…
guess my thought is more in line with Tru – it is athletic statute not academic standing
My gut is that the “rule” would say no to PPat on senior night. At that point, we then can have the debate on how to change the “rule” to honor PPat – as we all agree he should be.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 24, 2010 12:59 PM EST up reply actions
If they dont honor Patterson on Senior Night
They damn sure better not honor Michael Porter in any way. At least Paterson is still on the team.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Feb 24, 2010 9:22 AM EST up reply actions
agree with you kygirl...
but the opposite is true – if they honor ppat then they ought to honor porter…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 24, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions
Why is there even a debate?
PP is a senior and it is senior day.
by Shootmeibleedblue on Feb 22, 2010 10:35 PM EST reply actions
No.
He is not a senior. Check the media guide, or call the athletics department and ask them.
He has sufficient hours to be considered an academic senior, but he is considered a junior by the athletics department and apparently, the school itself.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Yes he is a senior.
A person can graduate as a 3rd year senior, a 5th year senior, hell a 7th year senior. Of course we can argue the semantics and technicalities. I hope PP participates in senior day.
by Shootmeibleedblue on Feb 23, 2010 7:43 AM EST up reply actions
Maybe he will.
Who knows? All I’m saying is based on the past history, and being fair to others before him, he shouldn’t.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Feb 23, 2010 11:35 AM EST up reply actions
Is that a glimmer of hope I see there Tru???
The wheels starting to turn after reading DeWayne’s e-mail?? Cause you seemed pretty sure yesterday he would not get honored……
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Very good point, Tru.
If he is not recognized by the Athletic Dept. then he shouldnt be in Senior Day. For the guy who pointed out they didnt play 4 years before 1970, if you really think that my argument for 4 years extends to when they were only allowed to play 3 years, then you arent very intelligent.
I think..
Patterson should make his own decision. If he decides to participate this year, we can count on him leaving us and heading to the NBA. If he decide not to participate, he gives us some hope of returning another year and possibly competing for a REPEAT!
Wishful thinking; and honestly, it’d be epic if it played out this way :)
I only wish it was that easy........Patrick will never say a word.......although I really wish someone would say something for him
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I really
want to get a petition going but first I want to know the rules on this. That is partly why I posted this last night. I want to see fans reaction first. I have emailed some big blue fans that I have known for some years and asked their opinion and they were all for it. These are older fans who have been around since Rupp. I am just not sure how to approach it. I messaged John Clay about it last night but so far no response. I just need to know the rules on this.
Why don't you just call the UK athletics department ...
… or email them, and ask them about the rule.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
my response was from DeWayne Peevy there tenken......
he made it seem as though the issue has not yet been decided since Patrick has not declared
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would
you mind emailing it to me. i just facebooked John Clay again. my email address is eaforsythe@yahoo.com. Thanks ;)
ever changing face of college hoops
Senior day was originated when 99% of the players would play out their eligibility…in these times, the very best players may stay as long as two years tops…for Patrick to be graduating in 3 years also adds impetus to allow him to participate in a celebration that for the longest time has given some of those without NBA futures to have one last hurrah in college…which is fine….and I wouldn’t want Senior Day to be also one-and-done day either…but I certainly think that Patrick Patteson has earned the right to participate considering all of the factors involved…I don’t think it would fly in the face of tradition, but I do fear that it may make him consider the NBA more seriously if he were to participate in the SR day festivities this year….and of course, I would like for him to stay and hit the 2000 point level and be forever listed in the pantheon of all-time UK greats (which he should be regardless)…
Very good points
I have thought about that too. In all honesty though, I just think there is no way he stays barring some freak injury that would keep him from going to the NBA draft. He was ready last year. More so this year.
Maybe Senior Day is becoming irrelevant?
With the elite programs, the real contributors to wins are usually gone early.
Perhaps we have a Player Appreciation Day. Have John, Eric, DeMarcus, Patrick and the rest walk out with their parents before the final home game. Then let Rupp erupt in appreciation like you’ve never seen before. I myself would put the nachos and cheese down and stand at attention. In appreciation for one hell of a season. It has been a glorious season.
No matter where you're at, there you are
We should not tarnish that for the guys who do the right thing and stay their four years.
If the present NBA fascination with developing players continues, sooner or later the definition of student athlete will change.If the NBA goes back to playing real pros, and only drafting players who are ready, it becomes less relevant, because WE ARE REWARDING AND HONORING KIDS FOR STAYING NOW. Why cheapen that and reward them for leavng? We can honor leaving players in some way, BUT NOT ON SENIOR DAY AS A SENIOR!
"all the way"
Tarnish?
This is not for people who jump to the NBA! This is for those who sacrificed to receive their degree at the school. Pat has done this. The more I think about it, the more its a no brainer.
And the more I totally disagree.
He is not a Senior in the eyes of the Athletic Dept. He has not finished his eligibility.
Rewarding Pat under his circumstances would
not cheapen anything. He has worked hard for the basketball team and himself. He passed up the NBA money and came back for the team and his degree. It is difficult enough to graduate on time let alone a year early AND keep up with the demands of being on a top notch basketball team. I cannot begin to fathom the passion being shown here against recognizing this amazing young student athlete at what is likely to be his last home game.
Soooo???
That still doesnt make him a 4 year player!! Geez, is this so hard to understand. Lets let John Wall enjoy Senior Day too. He wasnt even allowed to go to the NBA, so he came to UK. By your way of thinking, he deserves to be recognized too.
Recognized yes, but not during the senior activities maybe
Has that happened before? recognizing an underclassman? I honestly don’t remember. I believe the seniors should have a say in it, as well. If he IS leaving, and the other seniors want to have him join them, then I would be for it. He truly has earned any little thing special that the university and fans can do to recognize him for what he has gone through and meant to all of us! He would have had success anywhere and the fact that he came to play for UK even after tubby left, says alot.
If Patterson announces he is leaving officially before senior day
Then we should have SOME kind of send off. But not senior day. It’s like a high school diploma . Those are the guys who stuck it out no matter what and stayed all the way through. The ones that did not , have to take the ged.In his case , because he would have only played three years , will not have played the 4years at UK it takes to be recognised on senior day,regardless of whether he has graduated or not.
"all the way"
+1
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 23, 2010 9:52 AM EST up reply actions
What?
HE IS EARNING A DEGREE!!!!! He is not skipping out of college(per your high school analogy)…he is a senior…
The analogy reflects that an entire "tour" of duty has not been completed
As opposed to an equivalent in a different period of time, IE only 3 years in the Wildcat Uniform.
"all the way"
I also said he should be in honored in "SOME" way
I believe that Patrick Patterson’s Jesrsey should be hung from the rafters just like Kyle Macy’s , and I will sign any petition, join any letter/email campaign, prognosticate, whatever; to see that happen.
"all the way"
This whole "discussion" may have been for naught
I just received an e-mail from DeWayne Peevy that Patrick has not yet decided to leave, so no decision has been made on honoring him on Senior Night yet.
What this may mean is way too much information for my brain to sort out, so I have forwarded it on to Tru for his thoughts.
My personal opinion is that if he decides to go before Senior Night then they honor him.But I may be reading too much into this and it is only my opinion.
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Is anyone talking about his draft stock?
If there is a chance he goes second round like Meeks, then there is no sense him going this draft, also possible lockout. Would PPat get more attention in the draft with Cousins and Wall gone?
"all the way"
no clue, but I doubt his draft status would change much....a team that wants a Patrick Patterson
wants him no matter who is in the draft, unless they get a shot at the #1pick
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Like Amare Stodamire
Too slow to play the 3, too small to play the 5. I think, depending on what expectations are for him at the next level, that another year in Cal’s system has him planted more in people’s minds as a true wing player at the next level. If they already see him as a force at the 4(I think he will be successful in a diluted NBA at that position), and draft him in the first round then he should go. I hope he declares, but does not hire an agent. I don’t want to see him go as low as Meeks.
"all the way"
that sounds reasonable.....although I dont know about too slow to play the 3...
I think he may get even faster if he continues to train with that guy out in California….you never know
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As I stated earlier,
it may be time for a new tradition. Not one to replace the existing tradition of honoring the athletes who have exhausted their athletic eligibility but rather a special supplemental recognition for the true spirit of student athletes, i.e., actually obtaining a degree during their time at the school. No big deal, just walk Pat and his mama out there for the ovation they both have earned. Hell, look at all of the people we parade out at halftime.
Okay, one simple way to stop everyone's worrying
.
PPat returning for his senior year. :-D
An email stating that he hasn’t decided, well, that is good. And he shouldn’t decide so quick. He has winning games on his mind, and that is a good thing for the team. I hope he doesn’t hear/read about of all this and get this do I/do I not stuff on his mind. PPat doesn’t need hoopla from us. And we need him focused.
Another point I want to make, judging by what we have seen and read over 3 seasons concerning PPat, he may not decide what he is going to do next year until long after April. Since he doesn’t know, my thoughts say that PPat would want to keep open the option of running through the hoop NEXT year. See…..all this fretting, by some, is for something that isn’t broken YET, that we know of.
Is it???? Still intact and on schedule for the ones we know are leaving. :-)
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
I dont think you have to worry about that with him a2......Patrick isnt the type of kid to let this stuff
have any effect. And even the people who hold the opinion aginst him receiving Senior honors hold zero ill will towards him. He may very well be the most loved player in the history of this school……and I thought that Mashburn would never relinquish that title……
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He's is # 1 :-) :-) :-)
I just strongly feel that PPat will want to keep next year an open option. He says he loves college and he is enjoying his time here, seems like. I don’t think he will decide before senior day. Just sayin’.
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
I join ro307805 as we both came up with this
idea independently on different threads……..if PP announces he will leave before Senior day…..have a normal Senior day as we always have and give the proper recognition to those Seniors who’re leaving.
After the teary eyed festivities and a good butt whopping of Flordia……while 24,000+ are standing in appreciation…..unveil the PP banner hanging from the rafters that we all know he’d eventually receive anyway….just do it now instead of waiting 10 years or whatever.
You can't fix "stupid"!
by UKlvrJM on Feb 24, 2010 10:21 AM EST reply actions 1 recs
at the very least
a post game, special honoring of PPat is in order if he has said he is gone…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Feb 24, 2010 1:02 PM EST up reply actions
King Rex didnt graduate.....and no offense Timmy, but the two dont even compare....
Patterson’s commitment vs. Chapman’s isnt even close……Chapman was a great kid while he was here, and he has been a good ambassador for the program…..but Patrick wins that one out hands down in my book
Resistence Is Futile......We Are Blue
Why dont they compare?
You want to change the rules to honor a great player. Rex was a great player too, so why dont they compare. Lets just honor every great player on Senior Day that decides to leave before his eligibilty is up. Thats what this discussion comes down to and I dont agree with it.
Tradition doesn't make it right
and this is a great opportunity to change tradition and rules. Now, more than ever, we should be trying to validate the concept of the student-athlete. All the arguments on here are valid ones and if the University decides to stick with the same format for Senior Day they would be right, but they would be equally as right to honor PPat as the Senior that he is and change the rules for everyone. Why not make Senior Day for all players who have completed their athletic eligibility and/or are graduating before the beginning of the next season. That gives the distinction that the legal group needs and allows for honoring folks like PPat. Sure this means that the University may have gotten it wrong with past players, but that does not justify not making the change. It was once a tradition to only have white players, but that changed and no one went back to give black players a chance after the fact. They righted a wrong and moved on, that is what we should do here.
WOW
Comparing playing black players to the tradition of Senior Day? LMAO That might be the most ludicrous comment on this thread.
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