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Kentucky Basketball: The Possible Form Of The Enes Kanter Appeal

Kentucky has the reputation, rightfully earned in my mind, as the most storied basketball program in the nation.  The Enes Kanter saga with its Byzantine complexity and massive ramifications for the future of this year's Kentucky Wildcats team is just the latest in a long line of great stories that, whatever the outcome, will forever be woven into the tapestry of the most interesting college men's basketball program in America.

Enes Kanter has alternatively become a rallying cry and a cautionary tale. "Free Enes"is on the lips of almost every Kentucky fan in America, while at the same time, foreign players considering the possibility of playing for American NCAA-controlled universities must be thinking that this avenue is being forever closed, or at best very tightly restricted, before their very eyes.

The Case For Enes Kanter's Eligibility

This has been discussed at length in comment threads, but these diverse opinions need to be tied together into one coherent whole.  That's what we'll attempt to do here.

The biggest and best argument for Enes Kanter's reinstatement has always been that the NCAA has previously allowed athletes who accepted money from agents, shoe companies, and other third parties in return for playing basketball to repay that money and accept a game penalty.  These decisions have been almost universally based on the idea that it was never the student athlete's intent to "professionalize" himself.

This is the first, and most important prong in an eligibility restoration debate -- were the actions by the player an "intent to professionalize?"  It is hard to know the exact reasoning behind the decision by the NCAA Student-Athlete Reinstatement staff to declare Kanter permanently ineligible, because they didn't release their reasoning, only their conclusion.

Star-divide

The NCAA Student-Athlete Reinstatement staff's conclusion read thus:

"Enes took advantage of an opportunity to play at the highest level available to him, but the consequences of receiving payments above his actual expenses is not compatible with the collegiate model of sports that our members have developed," said Kevin Lennon, NCAA vice president of academic and membership affairs.

So does this mean that Kanter flunked the test of "intent to professionalize?"  On what basis?  Was it that he took too much money, or more the fact of where the money came from, or both?  We don't really know, so that's why a discussion of this case is so very difficult other than in the abstract.  We do not know exactly what one thing, or combination of things, made the committee reach its conclusion, or what particular test Kanter flunked that Renardo Sidney and Josh Selby passed.

Regardless, the appeal to the NCAA Student-Athlete Reinstatement Committee will be based on the following arguments, no matter what:

  • Kanter did not intend to professionalize himself.  He could not have signed a contract due to FIBA age requirements for most of his tenure with Fenerbahçe Ülker, and when he was offered a contract to play, apparently turned it down.
  • Kanter's parents applied any moneys in excess of expenses to young Enes' education, or sequestered it in a separate account for appropriate disposition according to their perception of NCAA rules.
  • The money Kanter took in excess benefits was comparatively trivial, especially considering most of it was used for education, a defined exception in the bylaws, even if the execution was flawed.  In other words, there was an intent to educate, not to professionalize, and neither Enes nor his family used that money for any other purpose.

In addition there is the news that Kentucky will try to introduce new evidenceinto the Kanter matter.  The new information first has to go back to the reinstatement staff, and if their new ruling is unfavorable, on to the reinstatement committee.  Regarding this new information, we might anticipate these additional arguments, based on reports we have seen:

  • Young Kanter, due to his status as a minor, was not aware that the money he received was in excess of "actual and necessary expenses."  The logic of this is that his family was handling the finances, and it is rational to think that Enes would not be aware of how much money was needed for actual and necessary expenses since he wasn't paying the bills.  In other words, this is a partial Cam Newton scenario

    As anecdotal evidence of how this might work, I recall in my youth having a paper route, the proceeds of which were to be applied to my college education.  I never had any idea how much money I made, because it was handled 100% by my parents.

    The fundamental basis of the Newton ruling was ignorance on the part of Cam, and just as importantly, Auburn, about the activities of Cam's father, Cecil Newton.  If Cam had known and did not alert the NCAA to his father's activities (a tall order, no doubt), or if Auburn had been aware of his activities and not reported them, he would have been declared ineligible.

    Kanter's situation is not exactly analogous, but there is a similarity in terms of intent.  If young Kanter did not really know how much money he was receiving as far as necessary and actual expenses were concerned, he could have reasonably believed that he and his family were acting fully within the NCAA bylaws.  This would seem to mitigate any inappropriate actions by his parents, just as it did in the Newton case, especially since Kanter's parents were apparently acting guilelessly.

    In addition, the NCAA takes into consideration knowledge of the NCAA legislation at the time of the violation.  It seems very easy to argue that the Kanter's understanding of the bylaws would be far less than those of the parents of Cam Newton, Renardo Sidney or Josh Selby simply due to the fact that those worthies grew up in the AAU and High School ranks, where what is allowed and not allowed is force-fed to prospects from an early age.

  • There is no substantive difference between earning money in the United States as an amateur and earning money in Europe as an amateur.  It seems that the staff decision may have been at least partially based on the fact that the source of income was a professional team in the sport that Kanter was trying to play in the U.S. as an amateur.  Money is money, and as far as rendering a decision on amateurism is concerned, drawing a crooked line between a professional team and third parties with direct ties to professional teams could be said to be a distinction without a difference.

It's important to note that I have no idea if all this is right or not vis-a-vis UK's intentions.  It is also important to note that there are defensible counter-arguments to every single one of these, no matter how convincing they may sound.  It is possible that the amount of money in question is the primary concern, and if that is so, there really isn't much to be done to overcome that perception. 

$33,000 may not sound like that much, but compared to Sidney and Selby, it is several orders of magnitude times greater.  Yes, I know all about the $20k that the Kanters spent on education, but since that was done outside the rules, it is easy to see that the committee may not be willing to just forget about that fact.

Unfortunately, as Eric Crawford of the Courier-Journal wrote recently, it is hard to know what ball to keep our eyes on.  We really don't know the rationale of the reinstatement staff, and what specific facts they used to differentiate the Kanter case from other cases like Sidney and Selby, among many others.  Hopefully, UK has a much better idea than we do, because in the end, if the Kanters and UK cannot resolve those concerns via prior precedent or new information, the Committee on Reinstatement is likely to reach the same conclusion the staff did, which is permanent ineligibility.

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Another thing that UK should point out to the NCAA

Is the standards set in another another NCAA sport- Tennis. Take a look at the rosters of the men’s tennis teams in the SEC. Alabama has 5 players born outside the US. Auburn 6 (of 8 listed players). UK 3. Tennessee 4. And so on. Its common at almost every large school, in every major conference (and women’s teams generally follow suit). You can even find it at lower levels of NCAA play, where you have certain D2 schools that specialize in loading up on foreign-born players.

What difference does this make? Well, a lot of those foreign-born players A: Received large amounts of funds from their national tennis associations as teenagers to train at tennis academies, and B: Many of them have experience playing in PROFESSIONAL, prize money tournaments. Not to mention the fact that many European countries have a club system for tennis where players can make a nice chunk of change playing for their local club.

And all of this is A-OK with the NCAA. Its been standard procedure for years now.

The difference between this entire system and Kanter’s case is splitting hairs, and really only has to do with the fact that Kanter was paid by a large, well-known professional organization that absolutely did not want him to leave. For tennis players, the funding they receive comes from some national association, and people go out of their way to help them hide or deny any prize money they might have won. Also, there is no spotlight on college tennis- almost no one cares. A whole lot o’ folks care about college bball, and there is a huge spotlight on Enes Kanter.

The NCAA needs to create a clearer path for foreign players to compete in basketball, and Kanter has the case to set a precedent. No matter how much Kanter actually received, its a fact that the amount was CLEARLY millions of dollars less than what he could have received. If that’s not good enough proof to the NCAA that Kanter meant to stay amateur, then no player good enough to enter a European or South American club system (the only developmental system available to them) will ever be able to play.

by mjj_001 on Dec 7, 2010 12:10 PM EST reply actions  

Sadly ...

… all of this is irrelevant.

The NCAA has never considered cross-sport precedence as far as I know. They seem to deal only with the rules that pertain to the sport in question.

Consider the fact that Trajan Langdon played four years of basketball at Duke while receiving hundreds of thousands of dollars from professional baseball. If you could cross the lines of sport, you would think that mattered. But the NCAA is noting if not consistent in applying their rules only to the sports for which they are directly applicable.

I understand your reasoning, but the NCAA has been consistent in the way they insulate sports from each other. The baseball rule immediately comes to mind, but there are many other exceptions. All sports are not created equal to the NCAA, and while I know that makes it look somehow inconsistent, they seem to be consistent in that they simply don’t consider cross-sport differences as important. If it is a rule in tennis and not a rule in basketball, they just don’t care about how that looks to laypersons like us.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 12:43 PM EST up reply actions  

The Langdon case is not germane to mjj's point

Tennis players are accepting benefits from tennis academies or associations, not, say, soccer academies. It’s in-sport benefits that the NCAA finds OK for one sport, but apparently not for others.

by BCinVA on Dec 7, 2010 12:57 PM EST up reply actions  

Division 1 college tennis teams

Recruit professional players, for tennis. And the NCAA looks the other way.

Going through the list of the top 5 ranked NCAA men, and crossing it with the ATP (professional tennis) website, I get this:

John-Patrick Smith (Australian)- $3,596 earnings on Tour
Henrique Cunha (Brazilian) $6,009
Bradley Klahn (US born)- $34,945
Guillermo Gomez (Spain)- $6,022
Chase Buchanan (US)- $43,000

And that ATP site only shows earnings from elite-level, ATP tour events. There is a whole other level of professional play below the ATP, where earnings are exceptionally difficult to trace.

The NCAA allows this because the players “don’t accept the prize money (I smell BS)”. In the US, this is easier to trace (probably why the US players I listed have higher listed earnings- they legitimately did not take the money). Overseas? No freaking way the NCAA can keep track of it.

You get a ton of foreign players who try to make it professionally from about 16-20 years old, realize its going to be nearly impossible (only a few hundred pro tennis players really make any decent money), so then change direction and come to play for US colleges, where they have a nice opportunity to get a free education.

by mjj_001 on Dec 7, 2010 1:35 PM EST up reply actions  

The NCAA does not look the other way.

They are simply applying the rules that exist. You may not agree with their interpretation of their rules, but ultimately, as long as they are consistent within their respective sports, it’s hard to see the problem.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 1:45 PM EST up reply actions  

I understand.

My point, though, is that the NCAA doesn’t care. It separates sports. What’s within the rules in one sport is not so in another.

If a basketball player accepts money for playing tennis, he can still play basketball as an amateur, theoretically, and the same with the reverse.

I get that it seems inconsistent, but it’s not as if that decision comes from “on high.” The colleges themselves have made these rules. They are what they are. They may not seem “fair,” but then again, you can attend college anytime you want to, assuming academic qualifications, as a professional player of any sport. You just can’t get a scholarship or play on the university’s team in the case of some.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 1:43 PM EST up reply actions  

The NCAA might not look the other way

But they are being stunningly hypocritical. The statement their sending out is basically this:

“We are the NCAA. We are all about amateur athletics. At least in certain sports. In others? Ehh, not so much”

Same organization/governing body, same stated mission for all sports, totally random and different standards for different sports? Really great way to go about your business.

That’s the reason people hate and distrust the NCAA. They are a farce, and they’ve made themselves into that.

by mjj_001 on Dec 7, 2010 2:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't think you guys really disagree.

mjj makes a good point about broad policy considerations.
Glenn makes a good point about applying the rules as they exist.

Glenn’s point is more germane to UK appeal.

by Wheatgerm on Dec 7, 2010 3:52 PM EST up reply actions  

You do realize ...

… that the NCAA is Kentucky. It is Louisville. It is every Division I school.

I think so many people look at the NCAA as somehow distinct in itself, but it isn’t. Kentucky helps make these rules. As does every other NCAA school.

Hypocritical? Not really. The NCAA enforces a stricter money ban for some sports than others, but in the final analysis, they allow some money to be taken by all. I would agree that the NCAA’s current definition of “amateur” needs to be updated and refined, but mostly people distrust them becuase they don’t explain themselves, and when they do, it is in long, legal-sounding documents that make people think of lawyers.

Nobody said they were perfect, least of all me. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 5:07 PM EST up reply actions  

I realize it

I realize that the NCAA is a bunch of college presidents who run an allegedly non-profit ……(pause as I try to catch my breath from laughing so hard), allegedly amateur organization, that rakes in billions of dollars through running highly professionalized, quasi-amateur football and basketball programs, under the auspices of institutions allegedly devoted to higher education.

I call that hypocrisy. Or rank cynicism. Or both.

And when those same people allow foreign pros in one sport, but not another, it only makes them look more hypocritical.

I’m not saying that UK should go in guns a blazin’. I can blaze my own guns, but UK probably needs to meet their lawyers with more lawyeriness. I am saying that, seeing as how the rules about foreign basketball players with professional backgrounds are clearly in flux, that UK might want to at least raise the question as to why, exactly, there needs to be a double-standard between sports that are controlled by the same governing body?

It seems a legit question.

by mjj_001 on Dec 7, 2010 5:41 PM EST up reply actions  

Now that I've returned home and can refer to the Division I manual ...

… I see that your charge of hypocrisy is not really accurate. Tennis and golf amateurs are not allowed to receive more than “actual or necessary” expenses, just like basketball players.

Sorry, but I think you have misread the bylaws, and I was wrong when I said they are stricter on some sports than others. They aren’t.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 7:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Ideal versus reality

Same rules might apply, but the actual result is dramatically different.

Kanter is coming from a large, well-known organization that is actively working against his desire to play college basketball. Tennis players come out of a background that is loosely structured, and people go out of their way to help them meet NCAA regulations (meaning, basically, they help them hide or channel the money).

If you want to defend the NCAA, that’s your prerogative. They certainly have a leg to stand on when declaring Kanter ineligible. I think they have a leg to stand on no matter what they decide, because the rules are so arbitrarily enforced that they can defend any decision they make. Like with Cam Newton. Or Selby. Or Sidney.

And I think the NCAA is hypocritical to its very core, for reasons I mentioned above. So we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

by mjj_001 on Dec 7, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

My point is simply ...

… that you have not proven any of your allegations, you’re just making them in a factual vacuum.

That’s fine, I’m used to that, but all I’m asking you to do is demonstrate some reasonable evidence of impropriety. So far, all you’ve done is make a bunch of claims of hypocrisy, but it turns out those charges aren’t demonstrably accurate.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 7:29 PM EST up reply actions  

In addition ...

… if $100,000+ can be reasonable and necessary expenses for Kanter, it seems a foregone conclusion that $34,000 can be reasonable and necessary expenses for a tennis player.

I’m just sayin’.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 9:17 PM EST up reply actions  

Factual vacuum?

No.

Tons of college tennis players have ATP ratings. Tons of college players are listed as having earned ATP prize money. As I showed above ( I can make a much, much longer list, but its pointless). Yet until just this past summer, any foreign-born player who earned one red cent playing basketball was permanently ineligible. Even participating in what the NCAA deemed a professional league, without receiving payment of any kind, resulted in a lengthy suspension.

I am not a believer in the “Because its the rules” argument. When any organization has to resort to that argument too often, its an obvious sign that the rules are either wildly inconsistent in how they’re composed, or being applied in a wildly inconsistent, illogical manner.

Like the NCAA.

So if the rules basically encourage tennis athletes who have been trained as professionals, and have played as professionals, to come on over and play for old state U, while completely disallowing it for basketball, I call it hypocritical.

by mjj_001 on Dec 7, 2010 10:53 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I'm missing the point ...

… as to how an ATP ranking is an NCAA violation. You claim they are earning “prize money,” but the NCAA rules state that they may earn money as long as it isn’t in excess of actual or necessary expenses — just like basketball players.

Yet until just this past summer, any foreign-born player who earned one red cent playing basketball was permanently ineligible.

According to my reading of 12.2.3.1, prior to this year, reasonable and necessary expenses were not allowed. This year they are. It worked the same way for tennis and basketball players then, and now.

Once again, I am missing the part where something is hypocritical here. Prior to 2010, the rules were the same — no money allowed. After 2010, the rules are the same — reasonable and necessary expenses allowed.

So if the rules basically encourage tennis athletes who have been trained as professionals, and have played as professionals, to come on over and play for old state U, while completely disallowing it for basketball, I call it hypocritical.

That would be so if it were true. It is not, as I’ve just explained above. Basketball players are allowed participation with professional teams as long as they don’t accept money in excess of reasonable and necessary expenses, just like tennis players.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 6:56 AM EST up reply actions  

How were the rules the same? They weren't

Kilicli was suspended around 20 games at WVU for participating in competitions with professional teammates (not receiving any cash). That rule has been changed, but just this past summer.

If you have an ATP ranking, and listed ATP earnings, how, exactly, have you not been competing with tennis professionals? And that has been going on for years, not just since this past summer, when the rules for basketball were modified.

The rules might be more equivalent now, but they weren’t until very recently. And the practical application of them has the exact result I’ve been speaking of- its very easy for foreign-born tennis players with professional experience to be eligible for D1 tennis, but its still exceptionally difficult for foreign-born basketball players with any professional experience to do so.

by mjj_001 on Dec 8, 2010 10:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Last year ...

… individual sports players could compete with pros and remain eligible as long as they didn’t take any money. This year, they can accept “reasonable and necessary expenses.”

Also, if prize money is earned but not taken by the player, their amateur status is not affected. That’s the same as retaining amateur status in golf — you may participate in a professional event and win prize money, as long as you don’t accept the cash. That would still register as money earned, even if you don’t take it. I assume tennis is similar.

The rules were different for team sports, in that competition on pro teams wasn’t allowed. But neither team nor individual were allowed to accept money before this year, even expenses.

You may argue that it’s inconsistent for team sports not to have been able to play with pros pre-2010 and I might agree. But that seems a minor thing to me, which is now corrected.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 1:12 PM EST up reply actions  

Tennis players!!!!!!!!!!!

it doesn’t add uppppppppppp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111

Go CATTTTTTTTTTTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by oilliecat on Dec 7, 2010 2:04 PM EST up reply actions  

There was a kid I think at Colorado...

that was denied playing football because he was a professional xtreme athlete. I dont remember the school, kid or sports.

by UKTimmy on Dec 7, 2010 2:36 PM EST up reply actions  

Jeremy Bloom

For professional skiing. The issue wasn’t his receiving money as a professional for salary (which the NCAA had no problem with), but his receipt of money for endorsements which the NCAA does not allow. His “fame” in college football could certainly have influenced his endorsement deals (especially with sales in and around Colorado U), thus he’d be making money not only off of skiing, but off of college football.

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 3:15 PM EST up reply actions  

If a basketball player accepts money for playing tennis, he can still play basketball as an amateur, theoretically, and the same with the reverse.

The money he received was from skiing, whether that be from earnings or endorsements. Glenn doesnt point out a differentiation, he just says you can play one and get paid then still play in another NCAA sport. I was just pointing to an example of where this wasnt a wholly true statement.
BTW, thank for knowing who the guy was or researching it.

by UKTimmy on Dec 8, 2010 5:20 AM EST up reply actions  

The NCAA definition of "pay for play"

is not the same as a fans definition. The NCAA has taken the stance that the source of the pay matters in a number of cases (including Kanter’s).

I think they can make a logical case that his endorsement deals could be affected by him playing college football. Does he get extra football gear from a sponsor like Nike? Do sales of the product he’’s sponsoring go up dramatically around the Colorado U campus because of his football fame? Do the radio/TV announcers start talking about his skiing ability and his sponsorships on the air in the middle of the football game? In Bloom’s case (and why I know of him), he was good enough at football to make the NFL, but suffered injuries that stopped him from competing. The difficulty in allowing endorsements is that they are created from a person’s fame. As minor as it may seem, his fame in football may affect his endorsements. If even one dollar of that endorsement money comes from him playing football (whether it’s directly stated or just “understood” to be that way), it is an improper benefit. The only way the NCAA can ensure that doesn’t happen is to disallow all sponsorships. Bloom knew this stance would be taken by the NCAA because he worked with them on the subject before choosing to take the sponsorships anyway. I’m not saying it’s right or wrong, I’m saying it’s a defensible position for them to take and I don’t think it at all invalidates Glenn’s argument.

by dshnarw on Dec 8, 2010 1:08 PM EST up reply actions  

I disagree

Im not going to go into all the reasons why. Nike doesnt make ski gear, btw.

by UKTimmy on Dec 8, 2010 2:21 PM EST up reply actions  

Your opinion is fine by me.

But it’s hard to make a solid argument without understanding the issues on both sides of the case.

Nike has regularly sponsored skiers as part of Nike 6.0. That is, however, decidely inconsequential to my premise.

by dshnarw on Dec 8, 2010 4:13 PM EST up reply actions  

Glenn, do you understand the Josh Selby situation at Kansas?

Because I sure don’t. I’ve read he was supposed to repay about $6,000 in benefits improperly received from an agent(?), but instead the university is repaying it. How is that proper?

by BCinVA on Dec 7, 2010 12:17 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think it is.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 12:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Selby

I’m not sure anyone understands it. I’ve read that Selby is paying the money back from his scholarship. Perhaps it is like the John Wall situation last year wherein Sandy Bell had counseled him to keep some of his Pell Grant money available in the event he had to repay the benefits that he had received from the Cliftons. Admittedly, the Wall situation involved only $800.00 or so, and the Selby situation involves quite a bit more money. It was my understanding that Wall had to pay the money back before he would start serving his suspension of 2 games.

by sprink on Dec 7, 2010 12:49 PM EST up reply actions  

So, if this is the case, that Selby "is paying the money back from his scholarship"

Doesn’t that per se establish that Selby is receiving excessive benefits from Kansas?

by BCinVA on Dec 7, 2010 1:00 PM EST up reply actions  

Not necessarily.

I received ~1500/semester in excess of actual educational costs when I was on an educational scholarship (beyond food/board/books/course fees). It could be used for essentially anything “education-related”. Spring break is considered education-related, right?

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 1:09 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes

But these matters don’t involve logic…

/sarcasm

by Clint Phelps on Dec 7, 2010 1:11 PM EST up reply actions  

A Pell grant is not technically a scholarship.

It does not have to be repaid,

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 2:00 PM EST up reply actions  

The italics monster is back......

he wants Enes freed too!!!!

I am now and forever shall be The Cat In The Hat....The Artist formerly known as ABC!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Dec 7, 2010 1:17 PM EST reply actions  

I'm suspect of the argument

that Kanter, as a minor, could be considered unaware of excess expenses. I can easily see the NCAA ruling that Kanter’s parents, as legal guardians at the time, were an extension of Enes because they had legal authority to do things in his name. I think your final paragraph in the matter is a better argument: they simply didn’t have sufficient knowledge of the rules and shouldn’t have been expected to be able to follow them as well as someone like Newton.

Just from a technical standpoint: Kanter’s money received is not, in fact, “orders of magnitude” greater than Sidney’s or Selby’s. It is about a single order of magnitude greater than Selby, and about one-half an order of magnitude greater than Sidney. Your point remains the same, however. It is a significantly greater amount of money received. I would be curious what the NCAA considers “too much” to suspend and repay should this point be the source of their ruling.

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 1:18 PM EST reply actions  

If they want to hang a dollar figure on it, then they need to make that figure a part of the rules and

not some number they pull out of their backsides when it suits them.

I am now and forever shall be The Cat In The Hat....The Artist formerly known as ABC!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Dec 7, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Given that this is setting a precedent ...

… they may well do that.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 1:48 PM EST up reply actions  

Heh.

I blew the “orders of magnitude” thing between edits.

I started to say, “an order of magnitude,” then decided to change it to “several times.” The two got mixed with inaccurate results. Thanks for pointing that out.

As I said, there are defensible counter-arguments to every single argument I made without exception. The NCAA declined to consider Cam Newton’s father an extension of him, although an argument could be made that since Cam was of age, he wouldn’t be.

As far as money goes, we know that $11,000 or so is not too much, but we know that only in the context of US players. What we do not know is if the NCAA is likely to apply that “too much” standard differently based on the source of the income, or if there is some bright line they have in mind. In other words, $11,000 may not be too much from a shoe company, but $500 might be too much from a professional team directly.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

The science teacher in me comes out sometimes

That sounds exactly right to me regarding Newton’s father. I hadn’t seen the Newton argument made in “anti-UK” fashion on here before, so I thought I’d offer. Though I’d prefer UK and Kanter to “win” on whatever basis they can, the NCAA can certainly make a logical case in either direction.

You make a great point regarding the source of the money. Based on the statement in the initial ruling, it seems likely to me that the hangup in the Kanter case is the source, not the amount.

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 5:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

The source thing is almost surely one of the issues.

But darn it, I just think drawing a line between a smarmy agent, or Nike and Reebok, and the professional team is just too neat and clean and doesn’t fairly deal with reality.

I know what’s going on there. They are afraid they will be criticized by their membership, and they don’t want to forever be answering that “how do you justify letting a guy who got paid by a pro team play?” question.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 5:10 PM EST up reply actions  

Agreed on all counts.

“Pay for play” is “pay for play” to me. The only reason Nike or an agent is giving a person money is because they’re good at playing ball – same as a team. I doubt we’ll see the NCAA take that position.

This kind of reasoning is exactly why I think Kanter has a better shot in the appeals committee: Let the members directly decide the outcome and set the precedent. Then, how can they possibly complain about the decision when it came from their own members rather than the bureaucracy?

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 5:24 PM EST up reply actions  

I agree.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 5:26 PM EST up reply actions  

Split the baby

If I’m a betting man, I would say the NCAA ultimately rules Enes eligible – but with a 1 year suspension. Effectively, they’re throwing it back in his court – if getting an education is really important, this is how you do it. If this was just a way-station to the NBA, then no dice.

Seems like a reasonable resolution in my mind (albeit, not one we particularly like).

by NYCCats on Dec 7, 2010 1:44 PM EST reply actions  

This result makes too much sense

If I had to lay money on a particular, specific outcome this would be the one. It seems like such an obvious thing to do that I have a hard time imagining that the appeal will rule any other way.

There even is a sort-of precedent with Sydney since he sat out an entire year, even if it wasn’t technically a suspension.

3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.

by JLeverenz on Dec 7, 2010 2:31 PM EST up reply actions  

Oh yes it was.

He was penalized one year of eligibility for lying to the NCAA, just as Dez Bryant was.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 5:11 PM EST up reply actions  

Ahh. I stand (well, sit) corrected.

I thought he sat out last year because the NCAA hadn’t cleared him to play until this year and then they added the 9 games for the money.

3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.

by JLeverenz on Dec 7, 2010 7:59 PM EST up reply actions  

There's no such penalty

in the Reinstatement Committee’s guidelines on proposed penalties. Sidney sat out a year for lying, the prescribed penalty for unethical conduct. No, if they suspend Kanter at all it will be for 9 games plus repayment, the prescribed penalty for impermissible benefits over $1000.

Then again, the guidelines are just that. A starting point.

by Wheatgerm on Dec 7, 2010 3:59 PM EST up reply actions  

Yes, that is right.

Although this is a precedent-setting case. They could plough new ground here under the rubric of the new rule never having been applied, and the lack of prior precedent.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

It would be a way to show the membership

that the Committee takes the professionalism issue very seriously. It would provide political cover.

by Wheatgerm on Dec 8, 2010 3:51 AM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

That’s what worries me the most.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 6:58 AM EST up reply actions  

Byzantine complexity!!

Can’t believe we are this many comments in and no one has pointed out the irony of your aforementioned “Byzantine complexity” and the fact that Kanter is from Turkey, in which Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) was the seat of the Byzantine Empire!

Free Enes!

by cpacat on Dec 7, 2010 1:47 PM EST reply actions  

Hah!

Great point!

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 1:57 PM EST up reply actions  

I thought it was a pun.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 6:40 PM EST up reply actions  

kywineman

I noticed it, just thought it was ‘Glenn being Glenn’ again.
He keeps a lot of dictionary Windows open on this site.

"SPORTS"--Not interested----"CATS"--Pull up a chair,I've got all night.

by kydamcat on Dec 7, 2010 11:28 PM EST up reply actions  

No, no...not a pun...

What’s that thing that spells the same backwards as forwards?

by Wheatgerm on Dec 8, 2010 3:45 AM EST up reply actions  

Race Car!

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Dec 8, 2010 10:14 AM EST up reply actions  

Istanbul was Constantinople
Now it’s Istanbul, not Constantinople
Been a long time gone, Constantinople
Why did Constantinople get the works?
That’s nobody’s business but the Turks

Even old New York was once New Amsterdam
Why they changed it I can’t say
People just liked it better that way

by Strangeite on Dec 7, 2010 1:56 PM EST reply actions  

Works for me.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 1:58 PM EST up reply actions  

Ha!

Looks like we have a They Might Be Giants fan.

by GasCan on Dec 7, 2010 3:56 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Here is a simple way to put it

If Selby, Sidney, Newton, and Bruce Pearl get to participate in college sports, then Kanter should be able to as well. They all knowingly and blantantly broke the rules. Selby did it twice by the way. He knew the cook out at Pearl’s was a violation, because Pearl told him and his parents, and he went any way. I never thought the NCAA was out to get UK, but if Kanter doesn’t get to play, then I would have to change my mind on that matter.

Free Enes!!

by ScottWalls on Dec 7, 2010 2:16 PM EST reply actions  

I think that's oversimplified.

Unfortunately, the NCAA will not look at it that way.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 5:13 PM EST up reply actions  

You are right.

It is oversimplified. And it makes perfect sense. Why let the guys that knowingly cheated play, but not let the guy that didn’t knowingly cheat play? But you are right, the NCAA probably won’t look at it this way.

by ScottWalls on Dec 8, 2010 1:53 AM EST up reply actions  

Well ...

… with due respect, making broad arguments that “make perfect sense” tend to ignore the minutiae that is the primary focus of the NCAA legislation.

If that’s all it took to win an NCAA appeal, I can’t see how anybody could ever lose. You can always couch facts into an argument that makes perfect sense if you ignore the details and stick with the big picture. But the details matter.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 7:01 AM EST up reply actions  

Again it's a matter of perception of the NCAA

On how the basic fan and sports follower view their results on these cases. If they rule Enes ineligible after all the review process and appeal, they will be viewed in a very negative light not only from the BB fans but all the potential foreign players that wanted to travel the same path. If I were a foreign player and was being pursued by an American University I would be very leery of ‘Coming to America’ under these circumstances.

The NCAA has to realize that it may be a little more difficult for a forign player and his family to interpet these outlandish rules and regulations. What are they suppost to do if they have a kid at a young age that they think may have high BB potential – hire an American Lawyer several years before hand and have them deal with all these club teams, in order to keep their Son eligible at some futuristic date…?

Nick

by KansasUKCat on Dec 7, 2010 2:40 PM EST reply actions  

I don't think the NCAA cares about how fans see them.

That really isn’t who they care about. Their member institutions are their “clients,” and that’s who they have to please. As we saw in the Rose case and many others, they are willing to take a ton of heat over their decisions with not so much as a “By your leave.”

Now, if the member institutions get up in arms about some enforcement action in enough numbers, it will matter. That’s really the group who’s perception matters to them.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 5:16 PM EST up reply actions  

The real problem is

That Calipari did not spend a scolarship or place on the team for another big man. We have scholarships we did not use. As far as Kantner; the rules are the rules. If Calipari had used all the scholarships he had available and signed some depth at the 4/ 5, then we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

"all the way"

by ro307805 on Dec 7, 2010 3:52 PM EST reply actions  

Who?

Give a name. Of someone better, or at least as good as, Harrellson and Vargas, that UK could have recruited. In the spring, not the fall, because no good big was going to sign in November, when UK had Cousins and Orton just coming in.

And “the rules” are not just the rules. They were changed just this past offseason regarding foreign-born players participating in professional leagues, and have really yet to be clarified in any meaningful manner.

by mjj_001 on Dec 7, 2010 4:06 PM EST up reply actions  

We don't need someone better.

We just need a warm body who could play division one basketball, and spend 5 fouls.

"all the way"

by ro307805 on Dec 9, 2010 6:01 PM EST up reply actions  

I just don't get this line of reasoning at all.

Who was he supposed to sign as late in the year as it was when Bledsoe and Orton both decided to declare for the draft? Assuming they came back and Kanter was eligible, that puts him at the 13 scholarship limit. Do you want him to oversign just in case of situations like this in the future? Then we would be ripping him for taking scholarships away from kids.

by mess038 on Dec 7, 2010 4:08 PM EST up reply actions  

If he would recruit someone, they would come.

Are you saying that in the whole state of Ky and it’s border towns, not one division one warm body could be found? Laughable. People dream of playing for UK. The poroblem is holding out for the second coming of Jamal Mashburn when we just need a warm body who can spend 5 fouls. A walk on would do.

"all the way"

by ro307805 on Dec 9, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Well ...

… that would certainly make us happy.

The problem is, I think Tennessee would not be happy. Nor North Carolina. Nor … well, 95% of the D-1 colleges.

I predict that the best outcome we can hope for is a 30% season penalty. But I’m not holding my breath. The NCAA is well within a reasonable reading of the rules to declare him permanently ineligible, as they have.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 5:19 PM EST up reply actions  

But it is not perceived

as reasonable based on their own actions in other cases.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 6:45 PM EST up reply actions  

Who's perception?

The fans, or the member schools? I think it is more difficult for the NCAA to rule him eligible and be perceived as reasonable by the member schools than it is to rule him ineligible. The NCAA has to have some very resounding reason to allow Kanter to play – member schools will otherwise see nothing but the fact that he was paid money by a pro team.

In general, fans don’t make much difference with regard to their perceptions. Do you think your version of “fair” and “reasonable” in the Kanter case is the same as a Duke or Louisville fan? The NCAA will likely never be perceived by fans as reasonable.

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 7:10 PM EST up reply actions  

And the fans are

to whom I was referring.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 8:06 PM EST up reply actions  

I do think ...

… and I have said, that the NCAA does not care what the fans think.

That is not their “client,” if you will.

But you are undoubtedly right.

However, I would suggest that the root cause of that frustration is a failure, and even a deliberate lack of intent, of the fans to educate themselves about a given situation for which they have a beef. I know, because I used to be that way.

But then I decided to make sure I was correct. I discovered, to my chagrin, that I had been guilty of seeing situations through anti-NCAA glasses.

Live and learn. I would prefer to find fault with the NCAA all the time, but because I decided to refuse to ignore the facts in favor of broadly-reasoned themes that the NCAA simply doesn’t buy, I discovered that they were really a lot more reasonable in Indianapolis than I imagined.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 9:15 PM EST up reply actions  

Ultimately

the fans are their client because it is the money from the fans that they, and the universities they represent, are lusting after more and more. I don’t think they are anywhere near a rebellion that in any way threatens their current status but if they lose enough credibility who knows?

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 10:33 PM EST up reply actions  

I see your point ...

… in the abstract. There is no real doubt that if vast numbers of fans across the country tried to affect NCAA regulations by acting as a cohesive whole, they could. But that is true of any human endeavor.

The reality, though, is that the member universities are the ones who elect the body and pay their salary. It is they who write the rules that are enforced among members. The member universities have a significant financial interest, both individually and collectively.

The fans also have an interest, both financially and emotionally, although that interest is so diluted by comparison to the institutions that their power is almost impossible to muster except in very rare situations.

In the final analysis, the NCAA seems happy to worry about their membership, and trusts that membership to take care of their fans.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 7:21 AM EST up reply actions  

Which ones?

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 7:27 PM EST up reply actions  

It just appears

in some cases the NCAA is looking for reasons to keep an athlete while in others reasons to deny him/her eligibility. I am talking appearances since we do not get all of the decision making rationale.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 8:08 PM EST up reply actions  

and we all know an ounce of pretention is worth a pound of manure.........

I am now and forever shall be The Cat In The Hat....The Artist formerly known as ABC!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Dec 7, 2010 8:09 PM EST up reply actions  

I don't know.

My perception is that fans tend to complain about the NCAA without really trying to understand their reasoning. If it doesn’t pass their initial perception of what “fairness” aught to look like, that’s it — it’s unfair, wrong, evil, corrupt, or worse.

My thing is this — don’t make claims, make arguments. Bring proof. Cite bylaws, cite examples of cases where the NCAA has not followed a reasonable process.

Look, the NCAA sometimes takes positions with which I disagree, and I can lay down a ton of reasons why. That doesn’t make me right. Most of the time, it boils down to a difference of opinion.

A difference of opinion does not make one evil, or corrupt, especially if both are defensible.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 9:02 PM EST up reply actions  

Cam Newton, Cam Newton,

Cam Newton. Again all I can cite at the present is appearance. It appears that he is too valuable a draw for the NCAA to come down on. After all is said and done, the investigators may find that Auburn and Cam or his father have some issues after all. The money will have been made, Auburn will have gambled and lost and the NCAA rolls on. This case does not make the argument that the NCAA is on the up and up any easier.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 10:40 PM EST up reply actions  

Really?

And what if they find that Cam and Auburn didn’t have any issues? Where’s the fairness in sitting the kid and retroactively saying “oops, you should have been able to play those last two games”?

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 11:06 PM EST up reply actions  

There is an issue.

Cam has been granted an exemption that runs contrary to previous NCAA position. Change of heart NCAA? Or merely pocketing the change.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 11:30 PM EST up reply actions  

Show me.

I would like to see an example where the NCAA told a player they had to sit out of games in the midst of their season because there was an investigation in which they haven’t found evidence that the student was in violation of any NCAA rule.

by dshnarw on Dec 8, 2010 3:05 AM EST up reply actions  

You're going to have to explain how that relates.

How is that an example of an eligible player becoming ineligible in the middle of the season because the NCAA was investigating them, but lacked evidence of wrongdoing by the student athlete?

by dshnarw on Dec 8, 2010 1:20 PM EST up reply actions  

Scholarship decisions are best left to the...

professionals…err..coaches. I’m sure there are considerations that many of us have never thought of when it comes to managing rides..but nonetheless we are always happy to offer our “two-cents” worth. Any scenario that includes having Enes in a UK uniform, I vote for..

..Playing the Cats gives you an uneasy feeling..like looking in your rear view mirror and seeing a police car..

by BlueOrion on Dec 7, 2010 4:18 PM EST reply actions  

Educational expenses

It started with Mike DeCourcy on Nov. 11: “The NCAA told the family that Fenerbahce would have needed to pay for those expenses directly for them to be permissible.”

That’s contrary to Rule 12.1.2.1.3.1, which says rather clearly (after several readings) that professional sports teams/organationzations may not provide educational expenses or services to prospective student-athletes. Neither may agents, universities or boosters, for reasons a little reflection makes obvious.

But UK fans have latched onto this idea that diverting impermissible benefits to education is a mitigating factor. Quite the contrary, imo. Using impermissible benefits to commit another violation of the rules only exacerbates the offense.

It could be that the educational expenses are causing all the trouble. After the staff’s initial decision, Calipari mentioned how the Kanter’s didn’t know it was wrong to use the money that way. And it’s abundantly clear to me that he knows this case, the applicable rules and the NCAA’s thinking far more than he has been willing to share.

This is the only tangible benefit Enes received, an education paid for by a professional basketball team. That distinguishes him from Newton in an important way. But if personal responsibility means anything, the principle in Newton’s reinstatement should apply here, not to exonerate Kanter, but to reduce the penalty from permanent ban to the usual suspension and repayment of impermissible benefits.

by Wheatgerm on Dec 7, 2010 4:52 PM EST reply actions  

The language in this rule was changed after Kanter had left FU

While Kanter was with the pro team, the rule stated:

12.1.2.1.3 Educational Expenses. Educational expenses not permitted by the governing legislation of this Association (see Bylaw 15 regarding permissible financial aid to enrolled student-athletes).

12.1.2.1.3.1.2 Educational Expenses—Professional Team or League. An individual may receive educational expenses awarded by a professional team or league, in accordance with the applicable conditions set forth in Bylaw 15.2.5.6.

15.2.5.6 Educational Expenses—Professional Team or League. A former professional athlete may receive educational expenses from a professional team or league, provided the following conditions are met:
(a) The student-athlete no longer is involved in professional athletics;
(b) The student-athlete is not receiving any remuneration from a professional sports organization;
© The student-athlete does not have an active contractual relationship with any professional athletics team, although the student-athlete may remain bound by an option clause (i.e., a clause in the contract that requires assignment to a particular team, if the student-athlete’s professional athletics career is resumed);
(d) Disbursement of the aid shall be through the member institution for the recipient’s educational expenses while attending that institution;
(e) The value of the award alone or in combination with other aid per Bylaw 15.1.1 shall not exceed the value of a full grant-in-aid; and
(f ) The recipient shall be considered a counter per Bylaw 15.5.1, and the amount shall be applied to the maximum award limitations of Bylaw 15.5 for the sport in question.

Based on D, Kanter broke the rule because FU didn’t pay the expenses directly, and he broke E because he received more than necessary to pay for education. Given that Kanter played for FU during the period in which this was the specified rules, it was likely argued by UK that Kanter be grandfathered in under the old interpretation, though he still was in violation of the rule in action, if not intent.

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions  

"these were", not "this was"

my mother would be shaking her head over that one.

by dshnarw on Dec 7, 2010 6:06 PM EST up reply actions  

You make an excellent point about what regulations were in effect at the time, dsh.

The $33,033 in excess expense occurred in the 2008-09 season, according to the NCAA’s Nov.11 press release. And it was from this excess, according to Mike DeCourcy, that the Kanters used nearly $20k for their son’s education. So what we want are the NCAA rules that were in place during Ulker’s 2008-09 season. As both the Euroleague and Beko basketball league schedules begin in October, we want the 2008-09 NCAA Division I Manual, effective August 1, 2008.

I’m using Rule 12.1.2.1.3.1 from that manual. The provision was adopted on 4/25/02, made effective 8/1/02 and only slightly revised to its present form on 1/14/08. So it has been the basic rule on “Educational Expenses or Services – Prior to Collegiate Enrollment” for the last eight years.

Check which manual you’re using, dsh, because it’s possible that the rule you quote comes from a Division II Manual. Rule 12.1.2.1.3.2.2 from the 2008-09 Division II Manual states: An individual may receive educational expenses awarded by a professional team or league, in accordance with the applicable conditions set forth in Bylaw 15.2.5.6. (Adopted: 1/13/03 effective 8/1/03) Naturally we want the rules for Division I.

The rule that I believe is applicable states that a prospective student-athlete may receive educational expenses or services from any individual other than a professional sports team/organization (and the few other entities), and then goes on to place a limitation on those who are permitted to provide such expenses.

So any educational expense paid by an outside sports team or organization, prior to or after collegiate enrollment, was and is classified as a “prohibited form of pay.”

And that’s a problem. By rule, Kanter received a prohibited form of pay from a professional basketball team. How do you argue your way out of that one? If Sandy Bell can pull this off, I will stand and applaud. After I compose myself from all the screaming and dancing around.

by Wheatgerm on Dec 8, 2010 2:44 AM EST up reply actions  

Wheatgerm

You are correct. It seems I goofed the labels on my e-copies.

And in such a case, I defer to your comments. They seem correct to me and in line with the NCAA release that Kanter received “payments above his actual expenses”.

I suppose Kanter could argue they sent him the wrong manual to follow (lol).

by dshnarw on Dec 8, 2010 3:31 AM EST up reply actions  

Easy goof. I made the same mistake a while back!

The thing that still gets me about that press release, dshnarw: it never said that Kanter was a pro. That was the take-away for most people, but that wasn’t the finding. If they determined he was a pro, if that’s the reason for the punishment, it would have been the easiest thing in the world to say so. But they didn’t. Why?

It gives me a little hope.

by Wheatgerm on Dec 8, 2010 4:48 AM EST up reply actions  

Not a Pro because

No contract signed, was a minor, league by-laws prohibit paying a child a salary.

by UK1972 on Dec 8, 2010 8:13 AM EST up reply actions  

Therein lies

the best argument for eligibility. The transaction was between adults, not Enes, a minor at the time. Even if he was aware that money was given and set aside for his education, he was in no position to make the decision for himself. It just seems like a PR nightmare for the NCAA to allow athletes whose family members are on the take to continue to play and deny Enes under his circumstances. Technically correct, yes but fair and equal treatment of athletes?

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 8, 2010 8:20 AM EST up reply actions  

I read somewhere

Regarding Kanter’s appeal, the NCAA told the appeal committee they were planning on changing the rules for future cases and they could consider that in their decision. (I cannot remember where or I would link it).

I am not sure the Newton ruling of eligible will always remain that way. We all know the eligible ruling was because of the looming big game. The case is not closed I don’t think.

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 8, 2010 8:46 AM EST up reply actions  

Dsh

I had little time to find the article, and these “blogs” are not where I read it. Maybe it was a “membership” only article that was open the day I read it? Or maybe it was removed?

Maybe you can track it down if you have time. “And yes, the NCAA DID in fact recommend to the appeals committee that they overturn the ruling and allow Kanter to play.”

And This is a couple times I’ve seen where you written that the NCAA has recommended the appeals committee overrule their initial decision.
Marc Maggard maybe? His name doesn’t ring a bell though. Good luck.

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 8, 2010 2:49 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks a2d2

Maybe I’ll snoop around while I watch the UK game for the original article. If the original article was Maggard, I doubt I’ll put much faith in it.

by dshnarw on Dec 8, 2010 4:02 PM EST up reply actions  

UK1972 posted this
Buzz Baker on Kanter situation

Did anyone else hear that Baker was told by UK officials that UK is confident on a favorable appeal on Kanter with the NCAA? The first group told UK their hands were tied, but that they would tell the second group to consider over ruling them.

by UK1972 on Nov 18, 2010 2:05 PM EST reply actions

It was Buzz on the radio too, apparently.

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 8, 2010 4:59 PM EST up reply actions  

If it was true

Maybe they won’t think their hands are tied anymore.

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 8, 2010 5:50 PM EST up reply actions  

Thanks again

Certainly makes for an interesting scenario.

by dshnarw on Dec 8, 2010 7:50 PM EST up reply actions  

I believe that initial statement

was a presentation of the most basic case they could make for logically deeming him ineligible without being too definitive. I’ve said it a number of times on this site already: I would not be surprised if the NCAA is trying to avoid setting the precedent for this case themselves by forcing UK to go through the appeals process. The member institutions can make the guidelines for the NCAA to follow by hearing the appeal.

by dshnarw on Dec 8, 2010 1:34 PM EST up reply actions  

I fear

the professional camel has his nose, head, and neck under the amateur tent.

by jdogblue on Dec 7, 2010 6:14 PM EST reply actions  

jdog

Let that happen and pretty soon you will be sleeping with a camel.

"SPORTS"--Not interested----"CATS"--Pull up a chair,I've got all night.

by kydamcat on Dec 7, 2010 11:46 PM EST up reply actions  

Great Article.

Good point 1972. Cal has not actually had time to really “rebuild” the UK program. He immediately got awsome players in his first year and we were back. I see this year as more of a rebuilding year. We have some great freshman again but they all may not go pro at the end of the year this time. We know we have another killer class for 2011. If we retain some young guys from this year and return Miller and Liggins as senoirs. We are in a great place for 2011. This is the perfect year for Cal to gamble a bit on a guy like Kanter. Personally I’m giving Cal a chance to build up an actual team for a real run at the chapionship. I think 2011 is our best shot in a long time and the Kanter deal will be long forgotten. Unless of course he returns for some crazy reason, like say a lockout.

by 166leslie on Dec 7, 2010 8:00 PM EST via mobile reply actions  

Thank you.

It’s wonderful to think we may retain most of this class, and combine it with the monster class of next year.

A team like that might challenge the Celtics. Okay, that was hyperbole. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 9:08 PM EST up reply actions  

Agree, but I think you missed a huge issue here.

2009 was “our best shot in a long time” to win a NC. I admit, I drink the Blue-Aid when it comes to football, but I am a basketball realist. Anyone, and I mean anyone who thinks last year’s team shouldn’t have hung a banner in RUPP is either lying to themselves or still recovering from the Clyde hangover. This year’s team is good, and they could be great. If Orton had stayed, Kanter becomes eligible, and so on. This team could be awesome. Next year could be the exact same. We are all hoping some players stick around this year, but what if Poole and Hood leave? Why wouldn’t they? Hood saw about as many minutes last year, and Polson is getting in before Poole these days. I am not telling these young men to look to transfer, but what if? And if I saw the guys coming in, the guys that might stay, there is no way I would think my playing time would improve next year. I appreciate everyone’s optimism and looking for the future, but we should be asking about when we are going to hang #9 this year and not #8.

I am not asking for Cal’s head or anything, and I do believe he will win one in the next few years. I also agree that he needs to have some time to get his guys in and get his system going. BUT the little coaching I have seen thus far in the year has been abysmal. Coach lost the UNC game, not the players. I hope it doesn’t happen come tourney time, but watch the first 3 minutes of the game and tell me if UNC’s game plan wasn’t perfectly clear. Get our bigs in foul trouble and the rest will fall into place. Fast forward to the last 10 minutes of that game. What was UK’s game plan? Hold the ball and keep it close. We all know how that worked out.

Again, I am not wishing for another Coach by any means. I love what Cal has done for the program in his short tenure. I would always rather be feared and hated than pitied. But maybe Mitch could hire an “in-game” assistant that could teach coach a thing or two. Could you even imagine Tubby coaching Cal’s recruits??? I guarantee not a single fan would be complaining about Tubby winning with another coaches recruits ever again. ;)

by UKlvrBM on Dec 7, 2010 9:35 PM EST up reply actions  

I guess I must be lying to

myself then because I don’t think they “should have hung a banner”, I think they could have just like several other teams in the NCAA field. Many things happen in a tournament and teams that “should have” don’t more often then not. It was not our right to win nor our destiny. I think it is much too presumptuous to think it was ours to lose. We are one of many good programs and it will not be easy to win #8. Duke was one miracle heave of a basketball away from going home runners-up.
  Abysmal as a description of our coaching is absurd. Unrealistic expectations will only give you very real stress.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 10:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Right kywineman.

Cal is not perfect but abysmal no. I hate to say it but Orton was no good for UK this year either way. He quit going to class his last semester. Not the kind of leader we need. Plus he has been injured off and on all this year. Now if Patterson stayed then we have something. I understand why he left but I’m sure he thinks from time to time that he would rather be back at UK than playing D-league ball.
I understand the argument that 09 should have won that NC. But it was so tough with a new staff and a new team of freshmen. I’m thinking Cal is building something this year. Yes we may loose a few guys that don’t play but our core experienced players will be ready to roll. I think our future looks pretty good.

by 166leslie on Dec 7, 2010 11:43 PM EST via mobile up reply actions  

The players didn't lose this game?

If Kanter was on the floor, do you think UK would have lost? Do you think Zeller would have scored 27pts? And if you watched Cal’s comments after the game, he clearly said he told his guys not to foul Zeller, and they did anyway. You can be the greatest coach in the game, but if nobody listens, it doesn’t matter.

by ScottWalls on Dec 8, 2010 2:05 AM EST up reply actions  

Did you see this on KSR? Bizarre stat of the year:

Harrellson has played 162 minutes this year. That’s 2 hours and 42 minutes on the court.

And he has not shot a single free throw.

by Wheatgerm on Dec 8, 2010 3:16 AM EST up reply actions  

There is a difference between asking your players not to foul and being ready for a team.

I think one of Cal’s greatest strengths is getting his players to listen to him and turning a bunch of kids used to playing for themselves into playing as a unit and for a team.

Explain the lack of offense in the last 10 minutes of the game or for that matter, the entire UCONN game. Was that the players not listening as well?

And as for Kanter playing, what does that matter? If UK had Kobe on the team last year, he probably hits 1 three in the WV game and they win. Doesn’t really matter. He wasn’t and Kanter isn’t (yet).

by UKlvrBM on Dec 8, 2010 12:52 PM EST up reply actions  

Relevant Commentary

This ESPN piece provides a bit of insight into the process (excerpt):

“If more information comes to light as a result of the enforcement staff or institution’s investigation, and that information is credible and contradicts the prior facts that were used to base the reinstatement decision, then that information would need to go back to the reinstatement staff,” Lach said.

My own thought: If one thinks that the urgency of the SEC championship game and its likely impact on the BCS title didn’t influence the Newton decision then that person is deserving of the Naif of The Year Award — so much for the inscrutable NCAA.

"I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up truth to your eyes." Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776

by Wild Weasel on Dec 7, 2010 8:54 PM EST reply actions  

Indeed.

There is no real doubt that the timing of the situation was a major factor in the Newton decision, and even if the NCAA didn’t say so, it is right there for everyone but a mental midget to see.

But let’s be honest — if Kanter were eligible and we were about to get a #1 seed in the NCAA championship and a similar situation reared its head, I prefer to believe that the NCAA would use an equal sense of all possible speed to reach a resolution.

We may never know if that is so, though, so the reader’s mileage may vary on that comment. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 7, 2010 9:06 PM EST up reply actions  

Not So Much The Timing

But the essence of the decision to reinstate. Transparently more politic than rule-hewing.

"I bring reason to your ears, and, in language as plain as ABC, hold up truth to your eyes." Thomas Paine, December 23, 1776

by Wild Weasel on Dec 8, 2010 1:28 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

I just read this on another site,
So, did the NCAA’s ruling “fall on the side of the student-athletes” when they punished current USC players (banned from post-season play for 2 years) for the alleged actions of individuals who haven’t been students for years????

This guy makes the point that athletes at schools banned from post season play are being punished for the actions of others that they knew nothing about, the very reason the NCAA gives for allowing Cam to play on. This joke is not getting any funnier.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2010 11:04 PM EST up reply actions  

Yeah.

This is a long-running complaint, and a lamentable one. It’s very similar to how it used to be when I was in boot camp — when one dirtbag messed up, we all paid the price.

The NCAA’s ruling is very rarely about student-athletes. As I have explained, it is only the nexus of the athlete with their member university that makes them matter, and the constituency of the NCAA is the member universities, not the athletes.

That’s just reality. As a matter of fact, though, none of the USC players are really being punished. Every one of them could elect to go to another school without penalty, but they realize that they’ll get just as much TV time (if that’s what they want) or the opportunity to compete at the same level sans bowl game even if they stay.

The possibility of NCAA punishment is part and parcel of the college athletics experience. Just as nobody is guaranteed the school will field a football team or renew a scholarship year by year, nobody is guaranteed a smooth ride vis-a-vis the NCAA.

This complaint does not move me. Life happens. What better time to learn about that than in college? :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 7:30 AM EST up reply actions  

I just think

there are punishments that would be fair to the athletes. Fine the university, remove the offending athlete and/or coach if he/she is still there and play on.

I like your analogy of boot camp, been there, done that. There is one key distinction between the two circumstances though, in boot camp there was opportunity for one’s peers to “influence” the actions of the offenders.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 8, 2010 8:28 AM EST up reply actions  

Presumably ...

… that is also available to athletes, n’est ce pas? They could always turn the offender in. If they know, of course, which I suspect many did know in the case of Bush.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 1:14 PM EST up reply actions  

I still remember

I was punished for the actions of others that I knew nothing about. It was great to visit with Cawood for every game, but…

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 8, 2010 8:27 AM EST up reply actions  

Ok say Enes is reinstated but not before mid Jan. but also NCAA makes him sit out some games say 5 or 6. & he does so so with the cats this year. does he come back next year or does he try for the NBA anyway?

by ukfan24 on Dec 7, 2010 9:21 PM EST reply actions  

He should be a lottery pick this year.

He really wants to play for UK though. His parents have money and he has turned down a big payday before. So there is a chance he would stay. Plus if there is a lockout he may need to stay. Then there is Cal who will no doubt encourage him to go pro. So who knows. Lot of factors in that. Fun to think about it.

by 166leslie on Dec 8, 2010 12:04 AM EST via mobile up reply actions  

Not what we want to see:

A decision that applies rules in a way that confounds common sense.

by Wheatgerm on Dec 8, 2010 12:52 AM EST reply actions  

I'd like to see the details of this case.

As with so many, things like this are very rarely as they appear. Based on the facts we know, this does look very bad.

But the facts we don’t know probably matter a great deal. That’s not a defense of the NCAA, they are perfectly capable of an irrational decision — as are we all.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 7:37 AM EST up reply actions  

Unfortunately they have people's reputations, their futures and sometimes their hopes and dreams in their

hands when they make theirs. It should require they be held to a higher standard.

I am now and forever shall be The Cat In The Hat....The Artist formerly known as ABC!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Dec 8, 2010 7:57 AM EST up reply actions  

There isn't anything humane about the NCAA

If they were in charge of animal rescue all the cages would be empty but their spending on euthanasia materials would be sky-rocketing.

Nick

by KansasUKCat on Dec 8, 2010 10:02 AM EST up reply actions  

It seems

that nothing is so uncommon as common sense.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 8, 2010 8:30 AM EST up reply actions  

To quote the immortal Ricky Nelson:

“You Cant Please Everyone, So You Got To Please Yourself”

I am now and forever shall be The Cat In The Hat....The Artist formerly known as ABC!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Dec 8, 2010 9:27 AM EST up reply actions  

UK NCAA Paranoia

I’m of the opinion that if Cam Newton had been UK’s QB, instead of Auburn’s that indeed mirroring all the circumstances that took place at Auburn, he would had been declared ineligible by the NCAA no matter if our FB record and ranking equaled theirs.
That is my opinion and I’m sticking to it…!

Nick

by KansasUKCat on Dec 8, 2010 9:04 AM EST reply actions  

Careful there Kansas......

You need to be able to cite case law, examples of NCAA improprieties and their willful intent to denigrate UK and its fanbase to make those kinds of accusations…..lol

I am now and forever shall be The Cat In The Hat....The Artist formerly known as ABC!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Dec 8, 2010 9:25 AM EST up reply actions  

Hah!

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 8, 2010 9:38 AM EST up reply actions  

hey,

you should probably give KansasUKCat one of those t-shirts you had printed. You know, the ones that say something along the lines of “the NCAA is the devil”? He might really like one. : )

Seriously though, I don’t have anything about this topic at hand to add, other than I agree with those who opine that the NCAA is not out to get Kentucky (I don’t live my life that way, you know, that everyone is out to get me, so I sure don’t live my fandom that way, either), but I just wanted to say what a joy this thread has been to read.

When new comments pop up, and you get all of this great discussion, all these great posts that have such valuable info and well-thought-out opinions, well, I think it’s great and it has been a pleasure to read. Thanks, all.

by BigSkyCat on Dec 8, 2010 9:54 AM EST up reply actions  

The NCAA is the devil!

Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71

by btcoop71 on Dec 8, 2010 10:16 AM EST up reply actions  

Hehe.

Love it!

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 1:16 PM EST up reply actions  

Nah.

It’s okay for him to do it.

You can’t, though. You’re such a frequent, vehement and fact-free NCAA critic, I’m making a double standard for you. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Glenn Logan on Dec 8, 2010 1:18 PM EST up reply actions  

we all have our little quirks.....lol

I am now and forever shall be The Cat In The Hat....The Artist formerly known as ABC!

by Greg Alan Edwards on Dec 8, 2010 1:19 PM EST up reply actions  

If my quirk was little

I wouldn’t admit it publicly.

I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.

by kywineman on Dec 8, 2010 8:01 PM EST up reply actions  

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