Winthrop Eagles 52 @ Kentucky Wildcats 89: Postmortem
by Glenn Logan on Dec 22, 2010 7:36 PM EST
in Kentucky Wildcats Basketball
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PrintUsually, the postmortem is a report of first impression, something that usually happens without reference to the statistics. Today, due to the length of time that elapsed between the game and when I was actually able to sit down and write this, it is more of a thorough review.
Best holiday wishes to the Winthrop Eagles and their fans, and thanks for coming to Rupp Arena and giving your best against Kentucky. Winthrop shot the ball fair in the first half, but abysmally in the second. Not only that, Kentucky blistered the nets from everywhere, which led to a predictable result.
My first impression of this game was, "Wow. What a game by Doron Lamb," and upon reflection, that impression still stands. Setting the freshman scoring record by shooting 92% on 11-12 field goal attempts is simply staggering. That record has stood for nearly 20 years, and the guy who set it has a jersey hanging in the rafters. That's the magnitude of the accomplishment by the young Brooklynite. It also seems somehow fitting that he bested another New Yorker, even though he was out of the Bronx.
The Four Factors
Just a quick look at those:
This is the first time all year that I can recall UK lost the ballhandling statistic. The 'Cats also lost the OR battle against a smaller team. This game had a serious dearth of free throws, which can be partially explained by UK's excellent passing in lieu of taking it all the way.
Superlatives:
- Doron Lamb. When you miss only one shot out of 12 attempts, 8 of which were 3's and make all your free throws, you have done more than enough for the game ball.
- DeAndre Liggins. He only scored 9 points, but he had just as many assists against only 2 turnovers. A 4.5-1 A/T ratio is getting it done. He also managed 3 rebounds 1 steal, and made all his free throws.
- Brandon Knight. Knight came back from a scary knee bruise and had a solid game. The only real knock against him was that he had more turnovers (4) than assists (2).
- Jon Hood gave some really good minutes and garnered some praise from the coach. It would be inappropriate for me not to echo that.
- Eloy Vargas had a very good game. 8 points, 2 offensive rebounds for a total of 3, and 3 blocks. Very productive minutes for the big Florida junior.
Other observations:
- Darius Miller once again disappeared offensively, but then again, when a guy is as hot as Lamb, everyone suffers by comparison. Still, only one FG out of 4 shots for the junior is not what we need. His rebounding, though, was excellent.
- Josh Harrellson did just what he is supposed to -- get rebounds. He is Kentucky's most valuable non-scorer.
- Terrence Jones again struggled against competition he should be dominating.
- Kentucky's defense really wasn't as good as the percentages make it look. We really need to do a better job on the pick-and-pop on the baseline that the Eagles ran over and over for a short baseline jumper. We couldn't defend it.
- 17 assists? Are you kidding me? Where has this been all year? Over half of UK's baskets were assisted. This is a very promising sign.
Overall, this was an impressive offensive performance by Kentucky, but the defense was not as good as it looks in the stats. Kentucky's steals% is really low, and this was by far the worst job UK has done all year taking the ball away.
But offensively, this was a tour-de-force. It almost doesn't matter what happens when you shoot this well, except to the coach. Kentucky's defense wasn't loathsome, but it could have been better. The blazing-hot shooting made almost everything else far less important. What's the old saying -- "Good shooting makes up for a lot of other mistakes?"
Still, I am really in love with the passing and ball movement in this game. It was much the best of the year, and made Kentucky look unstoppable offensively.
Go, 'Cats.
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The only time the team looked out of sync, and Winthrop made a mini run was when they quite running the offense, and jacked up shots early in the clock without any ball movement. Cal got that corrected with a 10-0 run to end the half. Overall, good game.
Lamb is gonna be a starrrr
and in my opinion, Liggins best games this year have been the last 2…..hes more in control, letting the game come to him….well, thats my 2 cents worth
Miller
I said this in the game thread, in the first 14 minutes of the first half Darius literally touched the ball 7 times on offense (give or take one). It’s hard to get involved when your teammates won’t pass you the ball.
I know what some people will say – “Miller should demand the ball” but I would rather see him get his shots within the flow of the offense than force things the way Jones is currently doing.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Miller
I think your count is about right and I agree. Gosh, there is only one ball and when folks are as hot as BK and DL they get it. Except when TJ was forcing shots today. Man he was out of it. Do you realize that without TJ’s shots, UK shot 80% in the first half? Wow.
Regarding the defensive point Glenn makes my impression was it might have been a scouting lapse. The defense appeared willing to let that player have that shot. No one hustled to get there. On the other hand the game was over at that point, so maybe they didn’t care.
Winthrop is a good team. They worked hard for rebounds and didn’t do things that turn the ball over. Although at times, they didn’t run through their offense very hard.
Merry Christmas to all.
by darkandbloody@gmail.com on Dec 22, 2010 8:49 PM EST up reply actions
Miller should be our third option.
He isn’t because he has not been good enough so far. I’m afraid the team is loosing confidence in his ability to score. He has two great weapons. One he can hit the three. Second he does that drive to just inside the foul line and puts up a nice floater. Both of these are big assets. I hope the coaches keep encouraging him to take that lane and score. The threes will come if he runs the floor. And I agree that while Jones is the focus he should step aside every now and again and let Miller work. The coaches hopefully are and will encourage this. Jones is great but he is not consistant. When he is off he can differ to Miller and see what happens.
by 166leslie on Dec 22, 2010 10:47 PM EST via mobile up reply actions
I'm sure a lot of factors contributed to Miller's lack of offense.
One that hasn’t been mentioned though is: When you have someone on the floor as “HOT” as Lamb – the rest of the team feeds him. Somebody has to suffer to increase those touches for Lamb and, for whatever reason, Miller seems to have drawn the short straw.
A few comments
Liggins actually “scored” 10 points; one FT was taken away on an offensive lane violation late in the second half. Liggins also changed his FT motion, no longer spinning the ball before he shot. I imagine this is the result of individual instruction.
Miller actually rotated at the 4-spot in the second half, probably to keep Lamb in the game. While Jones was in, Miller was out; this further limited his offensive opportunities. I thought he hit the boards well, as demonstrated by the nine he collected.
Lamb also played outstanding defense, something Cal commented on in the postgame. All around, he was outstanding.
With the shooting percentage UK put up, offensive rebounds are necessarily limited. Still, there were 30 missed shots which should warrant more than 8 offensive RBs.
Harrelson collected his double figure RBs. Continued good production from him.
I have been a big critic of Vargas. Today, he looked like he can be a contributor.
One other thing
One of the best stats of the day is the 2.8-2.9 team GPA for the fall semester led by Knight’s 4.0.
I thought Cal's comment about the GPA was funny too
Something along the lines of “you won’t see the comparisons with other schools because it’ll just show how smart we are” or something like that.
3 > 2, except for very large values of 2.
Oh, I hadn't heard that about the GPA
That’s great news! I’ll be looking for Dickie V to fawn over the fact at least a couple dozen times during the next game of ours he does, like he does about the Duke guys and their SAT scores and tough classes. I may be waiting for a while ; )
by blue kentucky girl on Dec 23, 2010 7:31 AM EST up reply actions
Just watched the replay on ESPN3...
.
- THE GOOD: Shooting
- THE VERY GOOD: Brandon Knight’s ever-expanding leadership
- THE VERY, VERY GOOD: Doron Lamb‘s shooting touch and ’Cool Hand Luke’ vibe
- THE BITTERSWEET: We are approaching the end of this season’s broadcasts with Dave Baker on (if it works for Gus Johnson) play-by-play, Kyle Macy on (a nice, neutral) color, and Rob Bromley on (maybe he’d be better off just reading things streaming on twitter) medical reports. I am really going to miss those guys.
-- Tim
Lexington
I am not
a big fan of their tendency to drone on and on about meaningless (except to them) subjects while ignoring a basketball game. It did seem that they did a little better job yesterday so maybe they have had some constructive criticism and are working on it.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
Pretty good all-around game
Yeah, the D coulda been better, Josh coulda scored a little more and ORs coulda been better. Hard to complain, tho. How about Vargas today? More of that, Eloy. Lots more of that. And, even tho Hood didn’t score, he got praise from Cal. ’Nuf said. What a fantastic shooting day for Lamb. He makes it look so easy, too.Ok, Forty, when was the last time we shot that well as a team? :)
just got back to memphis and had a couple of thoughts....
It was a really fun game – i only like competitive games when my team is not involved. anyway, a great way to start the Christmas weekend.
that being said – here are some thoughts that i do not believe i would be able to make had i not been at the game live:
1) as strong as Lamb was shooting, his defense was fantastic. i know someone commented on the thread about his on the ball defense, but his off the ball defense was just as impressive. in short, he always had his knees bent and was ready for action
2) BK and TJ spent alot of possessions running a two man game. it seemed like all of lamb’s shots came after a pass from someone other than BK or TJ. at one point in the second half, it was almost uncomfortable. perhaps it was an effort on Cal’s part to get TJ involved – he clearly was not hitting much
anyway, that is two years in a row for me taking the kids to the afternoon game just before Christmas – hope they keep the game each year….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Dec 22, 2010 11:00 PM EST reply actions
The SEC outside of UK this year is pathetic
Scores from today:
Wash St 83 Miss St 57
Furman 91 South Carolina 75
North Texas 75 LSU 55
Then it comes to be that the soothing light at the end of your tunnel, is just a freight train coming your way...
@btcoop71
Great wrap up of the game Glen.
When you pointed out that Lamb scored 32 on twelve shots it really hit me how awsome his performance was. It was fun to watch but almost shocking to read.
Liggins is so solid. I love that we can count on him to bring the best effort every night.
During the first half I realized how much fun UK BBall is again. Yes we are not ranked in the top 5. Yes we aren’t a top pick for the final four. But it is a great style of play to watch. When the other team scores we get the ball in to Knight and fly up the court. I loved ricky p’s style of play and have missed it since he split. Now its like that only better because of the DDMO. Its great to want to be the #1 team and with UK we always have that chance. But I also love to watch teams that play fast and this year we are quick. Plus this is one of our best shooting teams in years. So I plan to enjoy this season and this team. And it’s hard not to look at how loaded we will be next year. But for now I feel we finally have UK BBall back where it was meant to be and it is very fun.
by 166leslie on Dec 22, 2010 11:16 PM EST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Lamb had a great game obviously
and I almost wish he could take the starting spot for Miller but we need his point production off the bench. I still think Miller will become the player that everyone thinks he can be, but it’s getting to a point where I think that he is what he is. If this team was a little deeper, I think Miller would be coming off the bench.
Consume excrement and expire......
why can't Miller's point production come from the bench?
Just don’t understand the thought that the bench needs Lamb.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Miller Is Forward
Lamb isn’t. UK starts 2 F, 1 C, and 2 G.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 23, 2010 10:33 AM EST up reply actions
I Have Yet to See a C Listed...
In fact, one game had 1 G (BK) and 4 Forwards. I have even seen 3 G’s (knight, miller, liggins) and 2 Forwards.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Dec 23, 2010 3:14 PM EST up reply actions
Forty - Be factual.
“When you’re not, I’ll (they’ll) call you on it.” ;-)
Harrellson And Vargas Play C
Listen to the introduction of UK starting lineup.
Harrellson is introduced as starter at C.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 27, 2010 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
Harrellson Starts At C
Miller and Jones at F.
Knight and Liggins at G.
That’s how the lineup is announced.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 27, 2010 10:22 AM EST up reply actions
Cal's Comment yesterday
“I have three really good freshman, I mean really, really good freshman, and I can’t name but a handful of other freshmen I can compare them to”. Now I can’t remember him saying anything like this at any time during last season about that group. It surprised me when he made that quote because he always talks about being a work in progress. I think he believes this group has a real shot at winning their last game of the year. And we know what it means if you end the year with a win. Number 8 possible?
winning the last game
lets hope it ins’t the NIT championship ;)
Anyway, I think the cohesion that Jones, Knight and Lamb are playing with is amazing but I don’t know if I ever thought of Wall and Bledsoe as true freshmen that often. That may be what is clouding his memory, those two just took over the court from day one. Cousins had some freshmen moments but he was a polished player right away so even he didn’t come off as a work in progress that often. Only Orton to me was a true freshmen and I still think he would have been better served with staying in school. I can only imagine what this team would be like with him in the post…then again he has shown a few times that he can fall into a “me first” approach which wouldn’t work with this team at all.
"Come test me every day if you want," says Pujols, "Everything I ever made in this game I would give back to the Cardinals if I got caught."
Orton
Out for year with knee surgery.
Not much imapct if he were at UK this year.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 23, 2010 10:34 AM EST up reply actions
Two thoughts, Forty:
1) Not much impact last year, either, because of who else was here, and
2) It makes his daddy look smarter for putting Daniel in the draft last year.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
He Really Never Recovered From Knee Injury Senior Year Of HS
Orton has skills but it won’t matter unless he’s healthy.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 23, 2010 1:22 PM EST up reply actions
Would Add Death of His Mother
to the issues he had to deal with
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Dec 23, 2010 3:19 PM EST up reply actions
Some musings about the string above:
I like Miller. Could he be more aggressive? Sure, but there are already “STARS” on the team, and he fills lots of roles pretty well (9 reb yesterday, for instance). In the two games we lost, he scored low/mid teens, so he stepped up some to fill the voids left when the stars were off.
Lamb from the bench: Some players do better if they see how the game is flowing before going in. Several examples in NBA history. It certainly hasn’t hurt Lamb’s production. It doesn’t keep him from being one of the “STARS”.
Liggins is like Miller, he fills in where he’s needed, even though he could be more aggressive. His assists yesterday are a case in point.
Bottom line is that everybody doesn’t have to average 15 PPG to be valuable. The guys who produce solid minutes around the stars are sometimes the most valuable, Larry Conley and Tommy Kron on Rupp’s Runts, for example. 27-2 with them in ‘65-’66; 13-13 with them gone and the other three stars back the next year. Team chemistry doesn’t always depend on the guys who score a lot. Sometimes yes, sometimes, no.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
I don't buy that argument...
Being a role player and being aggressive are two unrelated issues. Miller can be a role player while being aggressive offensively and defensively. I’m fine with Miller as a role player – he doesn’t need to outshine Jones, Knight, or Lamb in scoring. What he needs to do is present himself as a valid offensive threat to the other team. He should never pass up an open three, and yet we’ve seen him do it a number of times this year. He should look to shoot more when he drives in towards the basket, rather than almost always passing it back out. In several games, he’s passed up easy layups because he was looking to pass rather than score. That lack of aggression allows the defense to back off from him and play more aggressively on other players. He doesn’t need to score 15 points a game to be effective – he just needs to be a threat to score that many if the defense ignores him to help on the stars. This is a similar argument towards Harrellson. If he’d put together a couple more offensive games like he had against IU, it would force the defense to play him straight up rather than cheating towards Jones or an outside shooter. He doesn’t need to score all the time, but enough to make sure the other team knows he can. That’s why Cal was unhappy with Harrellson last night – he didn’t present himself as aggressively as he could or should have against a smaller team.
I also don’t understand your argument about Lamb. I don’t think for a minute that he is better because he sits on the bench for a few minutes before getting in the game. UK simply needs a scoring threat coming off the bench to give the other scorers a rest. He’s the only option available for that role. As much as I’d prefer to see him in instead of Miller, Miller wouldn’t provide alternative scoring if Jones got in foul trouble early or Knight bangs up his knee. Lamb simply provides better continuity between the starters and the bench.
I don't believe
oldcat’69 said that Lamb was better off the bench, just that some players are.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
I think the implication is obvious...
If Lamb isn’t potentially one of those players who are better off the bench, what is the point in mentioning that some players are?
That you don't understand or agree
with the scenario I laid out about Lamb doesn’t mean it couldn’t be true, does it? Coach Cal sees Lamb more in practice than we do, and, for some reason, he feels he should be coming off the bench. I’ll take that for now, particularly if he keeps shoot and scoring well and his defense continues to improve as it did in the last game.
As for aggressiveness and being a role player being mutually exclusive, I believe I said that Miller could be more aggressive, didn’t I? I meant it. He would help the team more if he was, and I see more of a tendency to do that as the season goes on. I would rather he allow the hot hands to work than to have him try to force himself on the game as Jones has in looking like an underachiever recently.
Should it take this long for Miller to blossom? Probably not, but as long as Coach Cal keeps mentioning that Miller needs to be more aggressive in his open comments, Miller will probably take the hint. If he doesn’t, and he truly values playing time, then he’s stupid. And I don’t think anyone has accused him of that, yet.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
Oldcat...
I merely disagreed with your possible reason for Lamb being the sixth man and gave an alternative explanation. Comments have been made prior to several games this season that Cal has considered moving Lamb into the starting position. He wouldn’t be talking about it if Lamb were better off the bench than he would be starting.
Yes, you did mention that Miller could be more aggressive, but you did so with a qualification about the number of star players on the team. The allusion that aggressive play begets a star is where I find issue. Harrellson is a great example of this – Vargas even. When they play aggressively, they manage to get the ball and get a few buckets. The defense changes because of it. But I’m certain that neither of them are going to be “stars” anytime soon because of it.
You have shown trust in Cal’s judgment of Lamb. So why not Miller? Cal has spoken very publicly that Miller should be a star on this team – that he should be the one seeking out the ball, having the hot hand, and putting up big numbers. According to Cal, he has the talent and experience to do so and he practices like he can do it all the time. I pose this question because, like you, I think Miller is fine as an important role player on the team – but that disagrees with Cal’s expectations of him.
Oops. It is called
motivation and Cal is a great motivator. I don’t like second guessing the people who are paid for their expertise in such matters. If Cal doesn’t get the most out of his players, he will be replaced by someone else. Miller is improving but he doesn’t appear to be a take over kind of guy. Cal will make the best decisions for this team.
I woke up feeling BLUE this morning. It's gonna be a great day.
Motivation is certainly a major factor
I just wonder how much truth there is behind the coach-speak. I trust Cal’s judgment but – like with NCAA rulings – I like to understand the reasons behind each of his decisions as well*.
*not comparing the amount of head scratching I do over the NCAA with Cal’s coaching decisions…
dsh, I just re-read my reply to your comment,
and I didn’t mean to be quite so prickly. I do trust Coach Cal’s opinion of Miller. I suppose that’s why he’s starting him. The way I see this team is that we have six starters and then a very large step down to the next guy(s) coming off the bench. IMO, it’s about minutes played and not whether you’re on the floor at the jump.
Another reason that I like that theory is that I was better as the sixth man. That’s what I was on the UK freshman team and was part-time as a junior in HS. Watching for three or four minutes let me get a handle on what the other team was doing and what we could do to counter it. Of course, we didn’t have the advantage of pre-game tapes of multiple games by the opponent as the kids do now.
I also agree with wineman about the motivation part. If he doesn’t start Miller, does he break his spirit to the point that he never will become as aggressive as he could be. And maybe Lamb doesn’t have that problem.
It is a tough problem, and I’m glad Coach Cal has it instead of me. Of course, if I could pick up a share of that $8 mil per year, I’d gladly take on some of the responsibility. ;-)
Merry Christmas.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
Strong opinions...
we both have them. They lead to good discussion. We’re all looking for the same thing, after all: a little insight into Cal’s coaching process.
I can see your POV regarding 6 starters/minutes played. Lamb has perfected coming in off the bench, it seems, and the team isn’t worse for it. You may be correct about Miller – I think Jones would have a similar problem. If Jones were benched to start, I doubt he’d make much impact at all through the rest of the game. We’ve seen several times he’s been stuck on the bench with fouls and played poorly when he finally had the opportunity to get back in the game.
Merry Christmas to y’all as well.
Great point about Jones.
The way he’s played the last couple of games, he might be the one to not start in lieu of Lamb. Interesting that his ego problem and Miller’s might be opposites. Jones, too much ego to handle it; Miller, not enough ego to want to “fight back” into a starting position. Hadn’t thought about it that way.
And I do like to understand what’s going on. Some of the time I do and when I don’t, I just have to trust Coach Cal to do the right thing. I’ll have to say, at the risk of slighting Tink’s opinion of BCG, that it’s easier to trust the current administration in the Craft Center than the previous one.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
And my sympathies
about being stuck in DC. Was there twice in my AF career: ‘88-90 in the Pentagon and "95-97 in NIMA. Liked a few of the people; hated the cut-throat atmosphere. That’s why I went into a relatively low-paying job as a golf pro for a second career. Couldn’t stand to go back to DC to try and get rich.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena . . .who spends himself for a worthy cause . . ."
Jones and Miller make an interesting pair, I think.
Ultimately, one is too aggressive, the other not aggressive enough, resulting in very different problems on the court. Cal has his hands full in teaching opposite roles for each of them.
I must agree with your assessment of trust re: Cal and BCG. Trust in BCG, in my experience, was defined by the amount of alcohol consumed.
My wife and I hope DC is a short-lived experience. To make a long story short, we moved so I could go to grad school. Then I changed programs for something I could have completed at WKU, so we’re just buying time until I’m done and we can afford the move elsewhere. I like having plenty to do, but you’re right about the atmosphere. We’d prefer something a bit more rural, too. On the bright side of things, nearly anywhere we would like to move from here is cheap by comparison.
I am more worried he is going to tear or pull something when he stretches out to cover half the court on D.....lol
I am now and forever shall be The Cat In The Hat....The Artist formerly known as ABC!
by Greg Alan Edwards on Dec 23, 2010 2:02 PM EST up reply actions
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