Kentucky Basketball: Once Again, Into the Breach
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:07 AM EDT
in Kentucky Wildcats Basketball
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PrintWord out of Memphis today is that the NCAA will strip Memphis of the entire 2007-08 season. That's right, in an ever-expanding tradition of doing the pointless under the notion of egalitarian fairness, the NCAA will pretend like Memphis' glorious 2007-08 season never happened, and that Kansas' NCAA tournament was won by forfeit.
That's wrong. Period. Here's why:
- The NCAA never proved by any reasonable standard that the unnamed player (allegedly Derrick Rose) did not take his test. It is frankly un-American for a person to be effectively convicted of wrongdoing without, at minimum, clear and convincing evidence. From what I know, the evidence the NCAA presented did not meet that standard. Not only that, the NCAA cleared every one of Memphis' athletes through their clearing house. Are we now to assume that the NCAA has no responsibility for any error they make? That seems to be the lesson here.
- How unfair is it to Kansas to taint their championship in this way? I understand the concept that cheaters should not benefit from their wrongdoing -- that is just and right. But before you go ripping away all a team's credibility, you should darn sure be certain, with unambiguous and undeniable preponderance of the evidence, that you are doing the right thing. The NCAA can't do that, but apparently they don't really care.
As to Kansas? Well, boys, that great last-second comeback just never happened. Miracle Mario's shot will forever be meaningless, because Memphis wasn't really there to defend him. Memphis never should have been there, they will say, and a truly deserving team would surely have beaten you. Your championship will have an asterisk by it, an asterisk you don't deserve. - This is the entire punishment, apparently, for Memphis. No scholarship loss, no nothing. Just a determination that an ineligible player played (a determination apparently lacking significant proof), and a forfeit of games on that basis. No blame for Memphis except for the fact that Rose's brother failed to timely reimburse the school for some expenses, and even that creates no real punishment.
More after the jump.
In my opinion, this NCAA decision is truly worthy of the Hall of Shame, because failing some significant revelations hereforto unknown in the final report, this looks like a railroad job from start to finish.
Did Derrick Rose take his test? He claims, repeatedly, that he did nothing wrong, which presumably would include defrauding the NCAA and the testing service by allowing a stand-in to take his test for him. He also claims that he took the test. So we have the word of Rose versus a test score that was not thought to be invalid until long after the season began, presumably a priority fo the NCAA Clearinghouse. But the NCAA apparently thinks it's responsibility in this fiasco aught to be limited to judge, jury and executioner, and the failure of their so-called experts at catching alleged cheating is like the U.S. Government when an IRS agent gives you wrong tax advice -- they are not on the hook for anything, and you can tell it to the judge.
At the end of the day, this is something that aught to outrage everyone. If Rose or anyone else is proved guilty of defrauding the NCAA or the school, the athlete should be prosecuted, not get away scot-free. It is against the law in every state in the Union to present a fraudulent test score in order to obtain monetary or in-kind benefit. In fact, doing so across state lines as has been alleged in this case is mail fraud, and if Rose actually did what he is accused of by the NCAA, Patrick Fitzgerald should be empaneling a grand jury right now to investigate. The problem is, its easier to blame Memphis, even when it seems the school could not reasonably have known about the alleged fraud -- it even fooled the NCAA's so-called experts, quite possibly because as far as we all know, it never actually happened.
I feel for Memphis, as they did not deserve this. It is, based on the facts am aware of, wrong, unjust and based on insufficient evidence of wrongdoing. It also ignores the real problem, if there actually is one -- the bad behavior of a player, and punishes an institution who, as far as I can tell, could not have reasonably been aware of the misbehavior.
Finally, I come down to this article by Geoff Calkins, who rakes John Calipari over the coals:
But as much as they might like to pretend otherwise in Lexington, this is less about the basketball program at Memphis than it is about its former coach.
Just look at the penalties as they’re doled out today. That’s all you need to do.
Memphis won’t get banned from television or the NCAA Tournament. Memphis won’t lose any scholarships.
The Memphis basketball program under first-year coach Josh Pastner won’t be affected as it goes forward.
The Memphis basketball program under Calipari?
Whack.
Whack.
Whack.
And, yes, I know, Calipari won’t be implicated in the report. That’s part of the genius of the man.
You know, when I started out this article, I intended to really blast this guy. But after thinking about it, all this is is plain sour grapes designed to appeal to a justifiably unhappy audience. Being mad at the NCAA is just not good enough, because quite frankly, they are supposed to be the good guys even when they are screwing you.
But Calipari, on the other hand, has all sorts of circumstances to pick on. Not only that, he abandoned Memphis for the greener pastures, and is a really, super-convenient place to put all the blame and anger. He is a much less sympathetic figure than the NCAA in this particular case, plus it's always nice to hate the coach who just ran off with a much prettier, sexier program.
In the end, I think I'll just embrace the hate. Hope you feel better for having written that, Geoff, and we'll look forward to seeing you in Indianapolis, where you can write more nasty stuff about Calipari as we march toward our eighth national championship. I look forward to your work, and the article bemoaning the fact that you got yours stripped and we didn't. Maybe then, you'll place the blame where it properly belongs. But I'm not going to hold my breath.
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NCAA can’t see the forest for the trees.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
This is a copy of what I put elsewhere, but I am with you Tru....NCAA needs to get a life
Calkins is running his mouth because it is the popular thing to do in Memphis. The problem here is the fact that the NCAA is wrong, and they cannot save face and still make a statement about the Rose situation. They cannot prove that Rose did not take the test, and if they did prove it, they do not want to admit to the fact that their clearinghouse was negligent in not finding out about it.
This stems 100% from the fact that the NCAA clearinghouse for all of its intents and purposes is either a joke and cannot function properly, or they have no proof and its all a smoke screen.
Anyone think it is a concidence that the NCAA decides to release this on the day we have a TV special coming on about the new season??
I am so tired of the NCAA and all of their sanctimonious, self-serving, half witted attempts at making it look like they are doing their job, when in fact they are incapable of doing anything but reacting to what happened that they should have prevented in the first place. If they want all of this admissions nonsense stopped, then why not develop and administer their own criteria for athletes to be accepted into college. Have the admissions process done through the NCAA and not the universities. Make it standardized across the US. If you want to be in the NCAA, you have to use their process for bringing in the student-athlete. Then if anyone gets in, the NCAA cannot blame anyone but themselves. But, wait, no they are not going to do anything to accept culpability in this case or in any other situation for that matter. Spare me….please.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Pretty much ...
… the same thought. I am displeased with their lack of evidence that the player in question actually cheated.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions
yes but....
we do not yet know exactly what the ncaa had on rose.
as arbitrary as the NCAA is, i find it hard to believe they would vacate an entire season without something – especially given my comments on KU below
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Oh ...
… they did have something — a person who claimed he saw someone other than Rose take the test, and one of those score disparities we have heard so much about.
Real hard proof there. Maybe they had more (hopefully a whole lot more), and if they did, I’ll issue a correction.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions
still do not have Rose admitting it....
unlike Maggette admitting he took money while at Duke….oh, wait, nothing happened to Duke.
guess that is the problem – if Rose had come clean, nothing would have happened (sort of like if the Rose from Cincinnati had admited he bet, he would not have been banned from baseball)……right…..
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions
Heh.
Right, indeed. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions
I trust you have some familiarity with statistics.
For if you did, it is near statistical impossibility for two test scores to show a ‘natural’ disparity like I understand that Rose’s showed. So to dismiss this fact (as you are fond of using), is unjust and unfair to the NCAA. Let’s get real. Like any self funded oversite administration, resources are limited. This isn’t the federal government with ‘unlimited’ resources that can throw all sorts of investigation time and effort against it.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
So by your logic
He should be guilty because teh NCAA doesn’t have the resources to complete a full investigation.
Hilarious.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
So I guess your answer is:
Awwww, forget about it. Let’s just sweep it under the rug. Cal is great. Cal is good. All is well.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
No one said sweep anything under the rug
All I’m saying is, why hold Cal responsible for something that happened when D. Rose was in HS, with no evidence to support Cal knew what happend, and when the NCAA Clearing House cleared him to play?
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
You don't get statistics, do you?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Show me a stat
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Here it is:
http://www.act.org/research/reports/pdf/ACT_RR98-07.pdf
In short, a gain of 4 points on a second testing has only a 5% chance. The information is out there, one just needs to be curious and smart enough to find it.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
You are making an assumption ...
… that statistical variance was:
a) sufficient to warrant invalidation, and;
b) was actually used as factor.
Neither of them is a fact in evidence. So your argument, while valid, is not relevant or useful. You are arguing about a fact that has not been put forth, or even known to exist.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:24 AM EDT up reply actions
Just as you can't assume that the NCAA acted without sufficient evidence.
They may have it, but haven’t shared it.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Maybe.
But the problem is, they apparently didn’t even share it with Memphis, whom one would think, would have a right to know since it is their school’s reputation that’s been trashed.
Are we really going to go down the path of secret trials and convictions, even in the NCAA? I hope not.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:28 AM EDT up reply actions
You seem to forget the free flight(s) for the brother.
…and God knows what else.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Irrelevant.
Not a basis for invalidating wins.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:38 AM EDT up reply actions
God Knows what else
The NCAA’s investigation only revealed the two infractions. If something else is there, the NCAA didn’t find it.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
If I kill a fly with a fly swatter...
…I don’t need to go find a sledgehammer.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Not Analogist
What the NCAA said was that we are going to punish you, Memphis, because we found this big fly (though we offer no proof it exists) and that we also found this little fly which we know was not a big deal and we will not punish you for. Now we told you at first the big fly might be OK but now it is your fault that it is not. As for the actual person who may or may not have left the door open to let the fly in the room, Rose, we are not going to punish you at all. Why? Because to do so we would have to offer proof in a court over which we do not preside.
sorry guys,
I can’t help myself. Bosshoze, i’d be interested to know your take on a matter at UL several years back that concerned Nate Johnson I think it was, and his dad, and one of the McCray “brothers”? It concerned also a hotel that was paid for by said McCray for several months! Was it 4, or 5, or was it 6?! McCray paid for it from his personal account supposedly, so that made it alright. He was an assistant coach for Mr. Crum at the time. Dad lived in the hotel! Everbody said it was all in innocense. What was your take on that one, if you go back that far? I recall a slap on the wrist for UL, and McCray being pretty much hung out to dry.
When a great nation falls, it falls from within. There is only two ways to do this. One must "take" power by force, or when the other side simply "gives" it to them. me
by blubloodcatfan on Aug 20, 2009 9:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I'd reply if I knew what 'innocense' meant.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
That's periolously close ...
… to a rules violation. You know what it means. Typos are forgiven in the comments. Know it. Live it.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:16 PM EDT up reply actions
It's OK Tru,
It’s a personal shout-out to Slhoze. I just wanted to make him feel more comfortable, seeing that he has had problems with such words before. I wanted him to feel more like one of us! I’m proud of you for catching that one sclhoze. You passed the test. I noticed though that you didn’t touch the question about Nate and his daddy!?
When a great nation falls, it falls from within. There is only two ways to do this. One must "take" power by force, or when the other side simply "gives" it to them. me
by blubloodcatfan on Aug 21, 2009 9:53 PM EDT up reply actions
The NCAA is NEVER......I repeat NEVER
going to admit wrongdoing on their part about anything. I do take issue with your description of the fairness of this whole thing Tru, you were kind enough to refer to it as “egalitarian” I believe when the phrase should have been “totalitarian”. These half-witted wanna-be lawmakers ought to be subject to outside audits, open door, open file, open book policies and have complete transparency required of them when it comes to this stuff. Congress wants to look into something, let them look into the NCAA…..steroids are now becoming passe’….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Not really sure
why you would think little things like “facts” would keep him from putting in his two cents……never has before.
by wldcatsfreak on Aug 20, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions
I should also point out ...
… that Rose was admitted based on his SAT, not his ACT. That doesn’t invalidate your point, which is right, but you pointed to the wrong research.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:40 AM EDT up reply actions
No kidding.
The point of the research is to show the statistical improbability on gaining much on taking retests. That is consistent with either the ACT or SAT.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Indeed, but ...
… the scaling is different for the SAT. Just so people don’t go off thinking a 4-point gain on the SAT is statistically unlikely.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:05 PM EDT up reply actions
The data shows
The lower the first score, the higher the gain on the second score.
I get your point though, large gains are uncommon. But, you are still assuming that Calipari had something to do with it, which the NCAA says is not the case.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
act vs. sat
in the ACT, 4 points is 1/6 of the possible score, so yeah, that’s a big deal. We’re talking about the SAT here, though, and 4 points is 1/800 of the possible score. I have no information on what Derrick Rose’s score changed from, but let’s at least use relevant information.
Well ...
… according to what I know about this, Rose’s score was invalidated in part by the testimony of a handwriting expert. I am not sure that it was actually invalidated on the basis of a statistically improbable score. It is also a fact that Memphis’ investigation was unable to turn up sufficient evidence to justify a claim that Rose, or anyone else, had committed academic fraud.
ETS says that they invalidate tests based on two pieces of evidence. I am aware of only one, the testimony of Lee Ann Harmless. I am also aware that Memphis requested information from ETS about Rose’s SAT score prior to his enrollment to clear up some allegations of impropriety, but ETS denied their request.
Bottom line — it is likely, although not certain, that the statistical variance is not sufficient to support this allegation, and that the second bit of evidence, a handwriting expert, convinced ETS, although one is left to wonder why it took them a whole academic year to get there. It is also unclear as to why, if the NCAA Clearinghouse had any suspicions whatever about his eligibility, that they would clear him.
You can read all the relevant known facts here and here so you don’t post such trope in the future.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions
As usual...
…I doubt that any one piece of evidence was enough to penalize. You have to look at the entire slate, ‘counselor’.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I believe I have.
The ETS claims two pieces of evidence are necessary to produce an invalidation, and they have produced one, and a very shaky one at that.
So a reasonable man would conclude, as Memphis did, that the evidence of fraud was insufficient. That’s my conclusion, and the basis of my complaint. The NCAA does not invalidate wins for a failure to repay funds by a relative, they only invalidate wins based on the participation of ineligible athletes. Thus, they have concluded somebody was guilty of academic fraud, but the record contains insufficient proof to justify that determination. Ipso facto.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions
What about the airplane flight(s)?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Irrelevant to the invalidation of wins.
That’s all I’m really complaining about, so that’s all I care about.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions
Really?
Certainly Reggie wasn’t contributing directly to wins, but I would suspect it still played into the consideration of penalties.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Not at all.
The invalidation of wins happens because of ineligible athletes only. It’s as simple as that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions
Read the NCAA Report
And the Memphis response. The airplane flight was supposed to have been reimbursed but it was a clerical error. No one has ever argued this. It was clearly a minor violation and of no consequence. The violation issue was clearly all about the test.
how about Kansas?
in the same game, there was a player from Kansas (Dwight Arthur) that “allegedly” had his HS transcript altered….
Geoff never liked Cal – he was the original “Miserable” – i equate him with HL’s Tipton
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 10:26 AM EDT reply actions
Forgot about that.
Is this another case of the famous remark by Jerry Tarkanian?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Darrell, not Dwight
sorry for the error…..
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions
I posted this as a fan shot
but will work just as good here
http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/5881996/16724605
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Doyel ...
… “Forgive me if I vomit up a conch.”
Classic, utterly classic. I’m still cleaning the nose-coffee off my monitory and keyboard. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
I'm glad he linked us to a picture.
As if none of us ever played “Jaws” on Nintendo as a 5 year old.
by mrmondaynite on Aug 20, 2009 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Here is the yahoo article from a few years ago on this matter
ripped off from KSR:
http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=dw-ncaafavorites&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
thanks for the post...
the part i find intetesting is duke’s “defense” – he did not take payments while enrolled vs camby.
given rose took the tests in question before he enrolled, then under the duke rules, no wins should be vacated. however, memphis is not duke it appears…..
also – nice job on “readbetweenthelines” the morning….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 1:41 PM EDT up reply actions
At the end of the day....
Who wins in this situation? Nobody, and the NCAA only looks more foolish, if that’s even possible. A sad, sad, deal for everyone. I hope Memphis has a tasteful rebuttal ready.
Heh.
Nah. They’ll just hate more on Calipari. It’s easier.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Geoff was also just on the Dan Patrick show
He said he believes that Calipari knew about and was complicit in the cheating, despite having no evidence.
He’s a radiant beacon of journalistic integrity, that one.
Hey, at least he said he thinks we’ll go to a Final Four this year and not have it stripped.
Well ...
… he just became The Loathsome Troll Geoff Calkins. That exact thing is how TLT Jeff Goodman got his name.
So let it be written. So let it be done. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions
actually....
i would call him Les Miserable Geoff Calkins… LM Geoff…..
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions
well - third time is a charm
on a positive note – this will be Cal’s 3rd trip to the final four -
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions
That guy is a whiny little baby
WWWWWWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA Coach Cal left us WWWWWWWWWWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAa
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Thou dost protest too much.
Hmmmmm….that is telling. Your consciousness getting the best of you, Tru?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Cal cleard by the NCAA, I think you should focus on your coach...
…knocking up whores in resturants.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Easy.
Don’t besmirch the world’s oldest profession. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions
Great, Tru, Great. How many blogs written today will include the word “besmirch?” Classic!
When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro...Hunter S. Thompson
Many, I hope. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:25 AM EDT up reply actions
Maybe you should focus on 'your' program and not Memphis.
Making sure that Cal follows the NCAA rules should take up all of your time and more.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I'm not worries about Memphis
I think they are getting a raw deal, but I’m not on a Memphis board gloating about it, just saying….
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
worries=worried
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Nope.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 10:52 AM EDT up reply actions
Who's really at fault here?
1. Derrick Rose for breaking the rules to get into College (his “play” school) so he could make millions later — everyone else — UM, his teammates, etc., be damned. he’s rich now, many others are affected.
2. His High School for changing a grade. I read they had to vacate a state title themselves.
3. The NCAA Clearinghouse for not doing its job.
4. The NCAA for punishing Memphis.
UM and its fans are victims, here.
Callipari is not to blame. Rose came certified by the very body that now punishes many good fans and a good city. And even UK suffers a bit today. As does coach Cal.
I blame Rose just as much. Granted he may have been forced into this by a corrupt set of rules; but he didn’t have to cheat. He could have studied harder.
No matter where you're at, there you are
I don't know all the facts
but if you ask me Memphis got off easy. I despise the NCAA, but with that said, I don’t think that they would be punishing without justifiable cause. This punishment is nothing. Yes their banner is gone but compared to what we went through in the 80’s, this is NOTHING! I don’t feel sorry for them at all. Maybe that is why Memphis got off as easy because the evidence wasn’t as strong but enough to warrant the punishiment. All I know is that Kentucky got as close to the death penalty as you could get with similiar accusations. Remember there is still the issue of money being paid to fly a parent to a game. I think Memphis got off lucky. When you play in the NCAA, you must comply to their stupid and ridicolous rules. You then need to take responsibilty when they are broken.
Geoff Caulkins is a jerk. I cannot stand him. I wrote of this back in February of last year.
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
All I can say is ...
… the fact that they got off easy does not justify the NCAA’s decision. The facts in evidence do not support their decision. If they have more, it should be produced so that we can examine the strength of it.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:26 AM EDT up reply actions
With all respect, Tru, I don't think they got off easy
Granted their scholarships, etc. are safe — but their rep takes a big hit. They may keep their scholarships. Those scholarships will be filled by lees than stellar athletes because the reputation does the damage.
No matter where you're at, there you are
It is a relative term, to be sure.
But they weren’t actually punished at all. That’s just how it really is.
Finally, the basis for the invalidation clearly lacks evidence in the current record. Maybe they will clear that up, but I haven’t seen anything yet.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions
Well, I suppose punished is a relative term too.
There’s a word going around these conversations — branding. When you talk about millions of dollars and billions if you look at the SEC deals, branding seems important. Memphis’s brand takes a big hit. That to me is punishment on a higher level than the black and white “vacate”.
No matter where you're at, there you are
Indeed.
My whole point is, it was unjustified as far as the facts in evidence are concerned. Memphis should be pissed, but not at Calipari.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions
Yes
and not just Memphis should be pissed. We take a hit, too. The comments are everywhere. This is bigger than a new coach, but many don’t care. They like bashing UK. Since Coach Pitino’s affairs, I think Kentucky takes a hit.
No matter where you're at, there you are
Embrace the hate.
It will all be better come October. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Doesn't Cal's 'brand' take a hit, too?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Probably, with Calkins out there claiming he knew everything without a shread of proof.
But then again, opinions are cheap.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:11 PM EDT up reply actions
Calipari
I love how you Kentucky fans can remain in complete denial about the man you have hired and spent millions of dollars on to coach your team. Trouble follows Calipari wherever he goes. END OF STORY. TWO VACATED FINAL FOUR APPEARANCES. THE ONLY COACH IN NCAA DIV 1 HISTORY TO HAVE THIS HAPPEN. This is no coincidence people. First UMASS, then Memphis, Kentucky is NEXT. Calkins article is completely correct. That man did so many shady things while he was at Memphis, I’m amazed it took this long for something to happen. 3 words for you Kentucky fans to remember: WORLD WIDE WES – Calipari’s “head of recruiting” thug. This guy has more dirty laundry than a chinese laundry mat. GOOD LUCK KY, I just hope Cal uses KY before sticking it to your university.
We don't need luck.
We know a think or two about NCAA compliance, unfortunately. Thanks for your good luck wishes, as insincere as they seem to my jaundiced eye.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:42 AM EDT up reply actions
At least Hoze is somewhat coherent, unlike this guy
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
somewhat....
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 11:49 AM EDT up reply actions
Hey, I can take a compliment. :-)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Let's show the NCAA we won't be pushed around
this is great! one side mentions something, another fires back, can debate get any better? the publicity the Cats are getting is wonderful. please continue. more comments on age, intelligence, all good stuff. am I laughing at the silliness, yep, but only with you all, not at you.
This comment is not to be considered slander and is only to be taken in jest. Simply for the purpose of debate.
I think we should show the NCAA and not accept any bids to their tournament. That’ll show them!
Good idea....make this year's NIT the tournament to attend
get about 5-10 major schools to not accept bids and they will start to get the drift…..would be nice to see the whole top 25 decline bids…..
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Good grief.
Imagine there’s no Heaven
It’s easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
John Lennon is in da house!
:-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions
No, that's the one that goes ...
… People all over the world
Join hands
Start a love train, love train …
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey could'nt we just do
Jeremiah was a Bullfrog, was a good friend of mine…..never understood a single word he said, but I helped him drink his wine???
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Oh, I must have mis-spelled my Google search.
My keyboard must be bad. Last time, I googled “intelligent” and pulled up NCAA. Wierd
No matter where you're at, there you are
Heh.
Definitely broken. It’s searching oxymorons …
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions
I just googled oxymoron
I got oxycontin. After all of this I think my keyboard is juuuust fine.
No matter where you're at, there you are
Nah...
That’s the Coors Light commercial :)
Well ...
… doesn’t the NCAA own the NIT now?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions
don't let the fact get in the way of a good idea...
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions
Doesnt mean it still couldnt be done.....
can you imagine the announcers having a field day with the fact that all of those schools chose to decline???
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Yeah, I guess so. Well, kinda ... :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Hey, you just used 'imagine'.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Since I am not responding to a certain person above you there Tru,
will you tell him that invoking the memory of a dead legend is not a good idea when speaking of UK basketball unless that legend is a part of UK basketball??
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Heh. Funny.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions
I bet you weren't too much fun in the sandbox.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Imagine if the top thirty-two teams asked to be placed in the NIT and left the bottom 32
to play in the NCAA tournament. What kind of revenues would basketball bring in if Long Beach State were to become the 2010 NCAA national champion.
by Blueobsessed on Aug 20, 2009 7:49 PM EDT up reply actions
Is there any evidence that Memphis knew about this?
Let’s assume that the NCAA has hard evidence that Rose cheated, but Rose still refuses to admit it. Why is Memphis being punished? I haven’t seen any evidence that anyone at Memphis knew (or should have known) that Rose had cheated. Yet all the Memphis players from that year and, like Tru pointed out, all the Kansas players are essentially being punished for something they did not do or know about. How is this a fair punishment? How does the punishment fit the facts of the violation? How does the punishment have any future deterrent effect on future conduct by players such as Rose? This punishment is nonsense.
I really think it is time for the players to start an association of some sort. The NCAA has gotten way too big for its britches if you ask me. Would the NBA, NFL or any other pro league ever met out such a punishment for the acts of one player? It would never happen because the player’s association wouldn’t stand for it. It is time for the players to push back and say that they won’t play unless the NCAA acts reasonably. The NCAA is a huge business, let’s not pretend that it really is anything else at this point. How much money do they lose if the players refuse to play. It is indeed time.
the REAL fake Mr. Bob Dobalina
Formerly known as "senowen"
Good points all.
Very good.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:24 PM EDT up reply actions
We can blame whoever
The NCAA, the test giver, Rose…on and on. The point is this is the second time this has happened with Calipari, if it happens a third time, we will look like the most idiotic program in the history of D-1 hoops. A lot worse than IU with Sampson. Is it worth it? Never. Is Calipari really clean in all of this? I don’t think any of us will ever know, but I’d think you’d be pretty foolish not to be a little paranoid right now.
Paranoid?
Please. If Calipari is a bad guy and it happens to us, we earned it. UK fans want a winner, and Calipari is one of the biggest. He also happens to be one of the cleanest, despite the hand-wringers and Chicken Little’s out there.
Those are facts. And they are undisputed.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
man, Tru, i admire you....
although i am drinking the Cal-aid, i have to admit i am a bit nervous.
having watched Cal up close in memphis, i have my concerns. that being said, i will have to admit i thought he got a bit of a bum rap while here – especially from calkins.
just hoping Cal has tightened the ship a bit and learned from the past. one of his strength’s is giving the kids room to make their own decisions – for example about how they workout in the off season. given the kids he is recruiting, just not sure how much discipline there is.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Why?
Here is why I ask. Calipari has been implicated in exactly zero major infractions cases. None.
He has been coach at two schools where players rendered themselves ineligible through their own actions. There is no evidence, none, that Calipari either knew or had anything to do with these problems.
These are hard, cold, indisputable facts.
If someone will show me one actual fact that Calipari participated in or had reason to know of any major NCAA infraction, I’’ll gladly change my tune. But I see none, and none have come forth. Only nebulous rumors from people with reason to dislike Calipari, or Kentucky, or both.
Look, I don’t have my eyes closed. In fact, I have them wide open, and that’s why I’m defending him. Nobody as dirty as he is alleged to be can escape this long without a single scratch. Rick Pitino has a similar reputation, and he was implicated in no less that eight major NCAA infractions at Hawaii in 1975-1977. In fact, the University dissociated itself from Pitino, among others, and ordered Pitino to, “permanently sever all relations with UH athletics.”
We have seen from recent events, unfortunately, the color of Pitino’s character, and this is also reflected in his earlier actions at UH. If we should ever have been nervous, it was back in 1989.
Even Calipari’s detractors will tell you that he is a family man, a generous giver of his time and treasure to the community in which he resides, and more importantly has never been implicated in any scandal at all. Those trembling in fear must be afraid of getting out of bed in the morning, because Roy Williams is responsible for more NCAA violations than John Calipari.
These are just facts. Real facts, not rumors, not myths, not urban legends. I think facts matter more than all those other things. I hope you do, too.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
No argument
That he hasn’t been named specifically, but there’s also no argument that his teams have lost their banners, twice now. Those are also facts. Whatever Roy Williams did doesn’t excuse what happens on your watch. Pitino was always said to be a great P.R. face too, and now look. Anybody can smile for the cameras and pat a few children on the head, well, except Billy G. But he’d at least have a drink with them.
It looks bad. Maybe Calipari is totally innocent, but this still happened with his players, twice. Players he recruited. That’s why as a UK fan, I think you have to be somewhat paranoid of who we’re recruiting, the type of behavior they’ve exhibited and quite frankly of losing any accomplishments we had because we have the wrong players at our school.
Once again ...
… this is completely situational paranoia, and is factually baseless. How many other coaches have had this problem? Very many. The problem is, the NCAA does not consistently apply their own rules. Corey Maggette famously accepted money from Myron Piggie, therefore making him ineligible for amateur competition when he was with Duke University. Despite admissions from both Piggie and Maggette, the NCAA did not invalidate Duke’s NCAA final four and second place that year.
John Wooden, revered throughout college basketball, really did look the other way while his players took money.
The problem is, this all pure guilt by association. If you were not nervous in 1989 and are now, you are a hypocrite.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Paranoia
I admit it. I am paranoid about this. Maybe I am wrong for feeling this way, but I do. Situational or not. Two different teams – yes, I am paranoid.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Aug 21, 2009 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions
Had reason to know of any major NCAA infraction?????
I am sorry I thought he was the coach. I also thought that both Camby and Rose were the star/key players on their respective teams. His Captain Louis Renault role has worn thin:
I am shocked, shocked to find that gambling is going on in here!
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Spare me.
See Bowden, Bobby, or Stoobs, Bob. Among many, many, many others where the NCAA found the coaches had no reason to know their players were engaged in wrongdoing.
What bugs me about all this is the double standard. Somehow Calipari is more culpable than the above two, and many others who did not have any personal repercussions for NCAA blowups that occurred on their watch. Furthermore, the history books are replete with coaches who did do wrong, yet are still held in high esteem, while Calipari is suddenly evil for … what? Not being everywhere at once?
What the hell are compliance people paid for, anyway? Window dressing? Why does the coach automatically have to know, and bear the blame? He doesn’t, and even the stupid NCAA is smart enough to figure that out.
You, on the other hand …
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Big difference.
Big, but simple. There are 10X the number of players on a football team. That mathematical reality makes it more challenging. Much more.
Of course to realize this, one needs to be able to count.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Aug 20, 2009 7:26 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
Oh, right.
I see. The football team also has more coaches, and by the way, we aren’t talking one or two players, we are talking tens in each case. As a percentage of the team, a much greater number.
But that fact evidently escaped your notice.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
You are the one that mentioned the HEAD coach.
Look up Sarbanes-Oxley do give you another perspective in another ‘arena’.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Once again ...
… you are simply being argumentative, rather than debating.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:18 PM EDT up reply actions
Really???
Oh, I argue. And you of course put together well reasoned logical debating points. Please.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Yes, I do.
And yes, you do. Argue, I mean.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 12:01 AM EDT up reply actions
...or Harry Truman's simple quote.
The buck stops here.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
But it really doesn't ...
… does it? Otherwise, there would be no need for compliance departments.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 12:02 AM EDT up reply actions
You miss the point of Harry's desk sign.
The chief (head coach) always needs help (complliance). However, when things go wrong he (head coach) is the one held accountable. Seriously, you can’t find this surprising.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
No, I really don't miss it at all.
The reality is, the only time a head coach is actually held to that standard is when it is convenient. Most Louisville fans defend Rick Pitino’s moral turpitude, and I think with good reason. Most Florida State fans similarly defend Bobby Bowden when some 19 of his players actually did cheat academically. The list goes on.
It’s simply a double-standard, and Harry Truman has nothing to do with it. That is reality, not fantasy.
Finally, nobody should ever be held accountable for something unless it can be shown that they were negligent, or knowingly involved, i.e. that either by their inaction or action caused or furthered the problem.
That’s simply common sense, and doesn’t require much exposition. In this case, Calipari was pretty clearly neither.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
So ignorance is a defense in your world?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Well ...
… isn’t it in yours? If a subordinate commits a felony from work, and you don’t know about it, are you saying you should be charged as an accessory, or fired?
Just askin’.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 10:05 AM EDT up reply actions
If I don't have the necessary control or review processes in place to monitor their actions?
Yes. It happens all the time. Maybe not fired but certainly demoted.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Jim Valvano had three tournament appearances vacated
No one ever says a bad word about him
Kansas won the national championship while one probation for violations committed under Roy Williams…no one ever says a bad word about him.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Honestly they cant punish Rose,
so they go after whomever they can…..Its a classic DA’s plan from Law & Order…..no way to convict someone they think is guilty, so go after someone who cant prove they arent and hope they roll over on the other party and beg for mercy….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Yes.
But when the other party really wasn’t involved, but the DA pins it on them anyway; that’s what we like to call miscarriage of justice.
the REAL fake Mr. Bob Dobalina
Formerly known as "senowen"
Heh.
The third party gets the blame. Gotta love that due process, even if it is a really, really bad process … :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions
Miles Brand strikes again!!!!!
Another blow for stupidity in the abscence of rational thought
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Yes, you're right, Rose is made of Teflon
But that’s a problem, right? Like I said, don’t cheat — Study!!!! But who cares, this is all about money.
No matter where you're at, there you are
I think "a players association" is an interesting idea.
But, with the NBA age limit rule in place as it stands now, I don’t realistically see college athletes refusing to play in the NCAA because college or the Euro option (which for some reason isn’t all that attractive to them, apparently) are their only choices for getting into the NBA.
It’s the age limit rule that is tempting academically challenged athletes to cheat as they (the academically challenged) are the ones that don’t want to go to college (or belong there, for that matter) in the first place. I think “a players association” of sorts for college athletes would be better served to push for the removal of the NBA’s age limit rule.
a players union
if the players get a union does that mean we won’t have to worry about failed drug tests? Grades, who needs them.
OH, NOOOO ....
But wait — isn’t that now the infamous, “violation of team rules” thing, which I always read as “He Bogarted a fatty”.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions
You didn't read that link I put up in the FanShot, did you?
Tsk, tsk.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
Test scoring
hey, I sat next to a beautiful blonde and my test score only went up one point. maybe she was all looks and no brains
are you sure it was your test score that went up and not your temp there Paris??
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
truz
truz, I know we aren’t capqble of cheating. It’s just not the University of Kentucky’s way to do things. I didn’t see anywhere in that article that said it was natural for a test score to just as his did. I saw several suggestions how the score might have be obtained but all of them said something was wrong with the results.
What did I miss?
Well ...
… it’s certainly possible that Manuel cheated and UK helped him. The problem is that the NCAA did not really have proof of the cheating, they just had some evidence that pointed to it. For that, they ruined the young man’s life, and an NCAA investigator stood outside the door of his home shouting threats.
Does that seem ethical to you? I’m not saying Manuel didn’t cheat. I’m just saying there is room for significant doubt, and the NCAA seemed to have made their decision less on the facts of the matter than on a predetermined outcome.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Who knows, maybe we could start back up the South vs.North thing
make this a secession from the Union…..or in this case the Nazi party…..
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Godwin's rule ...
… strikes again! It never fails.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:35 PM EDT up reply actions
I say we bring in Donald Trump to head up the NCAA
any investigation that doesnt turn a profit will then be dropped….and they will turn it into a TV show….oh wait….NCAA already did all of that……darn!
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
How about ...
… Simon Cowell? Nah, to nice.
Tom DeLay? Getting warm, but no. Too … something.
I know! Helen Thomas! She’ll straighten out that nest of vipers! :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:40 PM EDT up reply actions
I am going to be waiting for the drug test to clear....
In my sport, horse racing, your horse gets a post-race drug test immediately after a win. While all of the states and tracks are a little bit different, a broad rule-of-thumb is that you can get your check for the purse money that your horse won within about 3-5 days after the race. But the results of the drug test take longer than that. So, it usually isn’t a bad idea to resist the urge to spend all of your check before your drug test has had time to clear.
I have been kidding around with people I know that we might want to treat our 8th Championship kinda the same way— enjoy the heck out of it as soon as it happens…. but maybe not spend all of our money until a little more time has passed… :-)
It is certainly going to be a nice issue to face…. !
by Sonic on Aug 20, 2009 12:53 PM EDT reply actions
Yeah ...
… I’d like to have that problem.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 12:54 PM EDT up reply actions
The new tournament
The new tournament could be called the UKIT. Invite Duke, North Carolina and Kansas. Of course it would be played in Rupp. Who cares about NCAA trophies.
I bet the above would all come too.
You know
I used to post here before there was so much baiting. Just saying . . .
Wondering
Wonder what the discuss would be if Cal suddenly takes over for Tricky Ricky at the ’ville?
OK, this is still an NCAA, NBA, MONEY problem
Rose get’s off — he made the NBA richer with his Rookie year so all is well.
Memphis gets screwed (and others with it) because the NCAA will not admit mistakes with the Rose, the one and done issue and its own billion dollar contracts that pretend its money makers are students. I don’t know what the answer is here. I have followed college ball since I was five. I could count by two’s before one’s. Something is wrong here. It’s not coach Cal. It’s the NCAA which is ruled by dollars. Maybe they’re forced to make these concessions to the almighty dollar to fund the myriad money losing athletic programs? I’m not sure. But I follow college ball because the kids play with their hearts. Remember the UK – Duke games in the 90’s. I don’t feel that was all about money. We see in all of this, a much wider issue in D-I College basketball. IMO, Memphis suffers and College Basketball is diminished.
No matter where you're at, there you are
TWO former schools
I totally get what all of you are saying about proof and hard facts and everything, but I just cant help but feel nervous. Vacated final fours at TWO different schools??? I LOVE UK and I do support Coach Cal – I really do – I’m nervous all the same though. I cant help it.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Aug 20, 2009 1:19 PM EDT reply actions
If NCAA Applied These Kinds Of Penalties To UK In Late 1940's And Early 1950's
Chances are the UK’s NCAA titles in 1948, 1949, and 1951 would have been vacated, too. Even though PLAYERS did wrong back then (not UK), NCAA would have penalized UK.
Not fair. And dumb, too.
I ignore these kinds of NCAA rulings.
by FortyYearCatFan on Aug 20, 2009 1:31 PM EDT reply actions
A nice rant
Whether Cal is cleared (or, more accurately, not implicated) in this mess is irrelevant. People that want to will use it as evidence against him. Meh, whatever. Embrace the hate. (But as kentuckygirl points out, it sure does make one a little nervous. . . )
But I would quibble with point #2 – I don’t think this impacts Kansas (or their players, fans, etc.) one iota. They know they won that title on the court, and so does everyone else. In fact, they could even argue that Memphis had to cheat and still couldn’t beat them. Is Kentucky’s title in ‘96 diminished by Camby’s agent shenanigans? Does it even come up when one thinks about that season? No, and no.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
true
agree with your point about kansas. makes you wonder, though, what a ruling like this would have meant if Memphis could have held onto that lead the last 2 minutes and won the title.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Aug 20, 2009 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions
There'd be no champion for that year
And that would be a shame.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
that would suck
that’s what i thought would happen too. i figured they’d just vacate it, rather then move everybody up a spot like they do in the olympics when the gold medalist gets DQ’d.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Aug 20, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions
Well ...
… then again, UK didn’t beat UMass in the title game. That makes it a little different.
But your objection is fair. I’m just making the point that if I were Kansas, and given that the allegations against Rose have very thin proof at best, this would annoy me.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
The NCAA forces us into never never land in 96 and 07
Yeah, right.
No matter where you're at, there you are
Memphis
Pardon my ignorance, but is this a done deal? Can’t Memphis appeal?
Jeff
yes, there will be an appeal
and – for what its worth – decourcy was on a local radio station saying Cal was furious about the ruling but due to an appeal, he would not comment publicly….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 2:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Theoretically.
But when have you ever heard of an appeal like this being granted? Never. Won’t happen, IMO. I’d love to be wrong about that, but I’m not.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Memphis2
Also, wasn’t someone on Kansas’ team accused of being ineligible and therefore the championship should be forfeited?
yes - darrell arther
and he “allegedly” had his HS transcript altered – apparently the ncaa had no proof….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 20, 2009 2:16 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh.
They didn’t need proof for Memphis, seems to me like. In fact, that’s my main gripe.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Arthur's high school team forfeited its state title...
…due to a ruling by the Dallas school district that he (and a couple of his teammates) had their grades changed to keep them eligible. The NCAA hasn’t done anything about it, despite the fact that he may very well have been ineligible to play in college because of that.
A more blatant case was Corey Maggette at Duke, as has been posted in various places (not sure if it’s come up in this thread yet). Maggette eventually admitted to taking cash from his high school AAU coach, which surely would have made him ineligible for the one year he played at Duke (the ‘98-’99 season), yet the NCAA did NOT forfeit Duke’s national title appearance from that season. It’s hard for me to see why that one wasn’t an open-and-shut case.
I don’t think this is necessarily “proof” of any anti-Calipari/Memphis/UK bias by the NCAA, since Kansas has had their run-ins with probation in the not-too-distant past (late ‘80s, same time as UK’s last big trouble period), but it’s more wood for the bonfire of the NCAA’s inconsistency and stupidity. The national media knows all this and frequently raps the NCAA for all sorts of things, yet they can’t bring themselves to let it affect what everyone “knows” about the coaches whose programs do or don’t get hit with penalties…i.e., everyone “knows” that Calipari is “dirty” while Coach K and Bill Self are “clean.”
by WildcatFanInDC on Aug 20, 2009 2:38 PM EDT up reply actions
Calipari should make a Commercial
and then pretend he’s Tom Cruise in socks. If he fell, All State would insure him. If that didn’t work he could use his American Express card. He’d be Teflon. Chosen ones make money and all is well. He could say, “Yes, I am”.
No matter where you're at, there you are
Open letter to Hoze
I appreciate your comments regarding statistical probabilites. Obviously, your are good at Syphering. I also appreciate your comment about someone not being much fun in the sandbox. I’d like to compliment you on making contributions to the sandbox that are very much like those of the neighborhood cats (lower case c).
Crap, I just can't get this typing thing down
What would the NCAA have done about this if Rose had attended Duke last year?
We'll never know.
And anyway, it’s irrelevant. What is relevant is that based on the record, they had no just cause to do anything.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
And Tru, it should be said that the NCAA is not accountable for their actions once they do act.
Question: Does Memphis have to return all gate money for this season that did not exist? Sh . . . did you notice the emperor has NO CLOTHES? :) Some day the challenge will come and the house of cards we now know as the NCAA will fall.
by Blueobsessed on Aug 20, 2009 7:57 PM EDT up reply actions
Heh.
Yeah, well, just one of the many inconsistencies.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
My unsolicited opinion...
Guess I’ll have to be the voice of reason again…Ha.
Any and all reactions to “scandal” in sport have almost everything to do with “fandom”.
For example, just for giggles let’s imagine Calipari had taken the Arizona job this past year. More than a few Kentucky fans would opine that it seems odd that he has two vacated Final Fours under his watch. Conversely, most Louisville fans would be less interested in today’s developments than they are now.
Also, if Pitino was still Kentucky’s coach, most (not all, but most) UK fans would support him in lieu of his on-court accomplishments. UofL fans, on the other hand, would be outraged that he had sex with a woman at Applebee’s or wherever passes for fine dining in Lexington. That’s just the way it is and it will never ever change.
by don'tshootmei'macard on Aug 20, 2009 8:38 PM EDT reply actions 2 recs
+1
Great comment. I agree.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Aug 21, 2009 9:07 AM EDT up reply actions
So you're sayin' ...
… this is all about cognitive dissonance?
I’ll cop to that. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Not sure why it is the NCAA's fault
Agree that the Duke decision should have been rendered years ago, but that shouldn’t exempt Memphis from punishment for breaking the rules.
You are correct. The NCAA did not prove that Rose cheated. The Education Testing Service did, by means we do not know and will probably never know. ETS is a neutral source (not out to get Calipari as some suggest), they are the same folks that validate my SAT scores, and those of my sister and neighbor and future children. They probably won’t show how they caught Rose cheating because they don’t want to show what tools they possess for catching cheaters. So future cheaters don’t find ways to work around the methods they currently employ.
It has come to light that Derrick Rose cheated on his entrance exam. So Memphis played with an illegal player on their roster, and that’s why the wins were vacated. Not because the NCAA is out to get Calipari. I think it was a good decision. Hopefully one that will dissuade future student-athletes from cheating and coaches and programs from not being fully aware of who they are handing the rights to a free collegiate education.
Good talk.
And as a followup
I have read the two articles discussing why Rose didn’t cheat. They refute some evidence that he cheated, but not all the evidence. We do not know all the evidence, but I trust the ETS in making a neutral judgment.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 20, 2009 9:40 PM EDT up reply actions
But that is just it.....the ETS made no judgement
they simply said that because he didnt cooperate, they voided the test. That is not a judgement, its a summary decision with no other information being presented.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
You really need to visit this site more often.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Furthermore, WHY do we not know all of the evidence???
why would the NCAA not release every shred of what they have to back up their ruling?Who does that harmThey have already had the team’s season declared null and void….why not put it all out there and let everyone see this terrible conduct by Memphis??
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
No, the ETS didn't.
They just made a default judgment, which the NCAA apparently accepted uncritically.
Rose has not cheated as far as I am concerned. The ETS did invalidate his test, which technically makes him ineligible. But there are tons of mitigating circumstances and questionable, rather subjective judgments involved by non-NCAA personnel. Not to mention the fact that the only reason Rose played at all was because the NCAA cleared him to do so.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:12 PM EDT up reply actions
Please don't think that a monopoly called ETS is ever a "neutral source". They have too much to lose in their con-job stating that the score on their test correlates to success in school.
ETS is in the business of educational norm reference testing to make money. They do this by perpetuating a myth that unless you you get a particular score on a particular matrix, you “do not have the prerequisite skills and knowlege” to be successful in college. Special education has challenged the time limit and those with diagnosed disabilities can be given more time. This in essence throws out the ability to rank and sort the students, because they are not all compared the same. Yet like other rights of passage in our life, we merrily go along assuming ETS is correct in what they do.
My point here is that whether or not cheated to get in, it cannot be denied that he remained eligible while he played. Was not the purpose of the test to predict how Rose would do in college? HUMMMMMMMMM.
by Blueobsessed on Aug 21, 2009 7:42 AM EDT up reply actions
That ...
… is a very good point, along with a couple of others that I’ll have to make in a blog post this morning. This is tiresome. Why can’t we all just get along? :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
This goes to ANY court in the country
and it doesnt make it past discovery……
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
But Why?
Why would the NCAA and ETS make a judgment on Derrick Rose and Memphis without properly looking at the evidence?
It is not about Calipari since they didn’t charge him with anything. It is not about Rose since he walked away fine. Why Memphis?
That’s what I don’t understand. Why are you alleging that the NCAA had no basis to do this? Wouldn’t it be better off for everyone involved if they came back today and said Rose did not cheat, that our internal controls are just fine, that our members are not cheaters? No one loses in that situation.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 20, 2009 10:05 PM EDT up reply actions
Indeed.
Why? It seems that the ETS made a default judgment based on precious little evidence, absolutely non of which could be considered “clear and convincing.”
And the NCAA uncritically accepted it, and ignore the fact that his participation was 100% because of their clearinghouse.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:14 PM EDT up reply actions
Oh good grief. Now it is both the NCAA and the ETS?
C’mon. Enough is enough. You have an independent party making a judgement. This counters all the claims that the NCAA is a ‘police state’ acting independently as judge, jury, and executor.
I think you watched too much Perry Mason when every conviction was caused when the defendent screamed ‘I am guilty’ on the witness stand.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Enough is enough.
You are becoming a troll.
The ETS did not prove the player in question cheated. That is a fact. All your other stuff is just irrelevant nonsense.
Deal with the facts in question. If you can’t move on.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 12:05 AM EDT up reply actions
Share the formula or equation on how you calculate enough is enough. I am curious.
I highly suspect that it is skewed against those who hold an opinion counter to yours.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
No, that isn't so.
Okay, I’m going to talk to you like a Dutch uncle. I have gone out of my way to let you have your say on here despite a very broad outcry for me to revoke your commenting privileges. On any other Kentucky site in the blogosphere, you would have been banned long ago. That is a fact, and if you doubt me, try making comments like you have made in here on The Cats Pause or True Blue Kentucky or KSR and see what happens.
Look, I hate banning people. I hate it. I hate dressing them down in the comments, or on email. But smartass stuff is not what this blog is about, and all you do nowadays is smartass. Yes, others take shots at you, but quite frankly you are the one that almost always shoots first.
A couple of blog posts up, you adopted a very reasonable tone. I like that. If you can do that, we will all get along just fine, and I will stop those who tend to react every time you comment. It is your unpleasant sarcasm, not the positions you take, that have created the problem.
This is the real world, not fantasy. You are a special case — your are the fan of Kentucky’s biggest rival, and I have allowed you to voice considerable, and often not very nice, criticism of Kentucky on a Kentucky blog. That’s not good for my readership, and I have lost several readers because of your sarcastic nastiness. That is a fact. I could have banned you long ago and saved at least 10 readers that I know of. You are making it very hard for me to continue to allow you to comment here.
You should dial that back, a lot. If you do, I think we will all find this a pleasant place. You even have me making sarcastic snarks, something I don’t enjoy doing, and I am very tired of being provoked to anger. Show some respect for the people here and their passion, and I guarantee it will be returned. Otherwise, we will soon have to come to a parting of the ways.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
So I am the 'alpha writer'.....everything starts with me.
I guess I can take that as a compliment. You are correct, I probably would be banned from the other UK sites, but I thought you take pride (and justifiably so) in being different and better. Sure there is a loud (albeit whiney) few that complain about what I write and if you desire, you could let them sway you in thinking I am ‘damaging’ to this site. However, I strongly suggest that there are far more that read my comments in the light that they are intended. I could futher argue I bring a perspective that this site needs and the BBN needs as well.
As far as being rude to people, consider this: 1) I have never called people names 2) I have never ‘bastardized’ people’s screen names 3) I have never threatened 4) I have never disparaged an ex-UK coach in a personal manner.
In regards to sarcasm, many people happen to find this a high form of humor. Just to make sure people are clued in, I will attempt to use more smiley faces to highlight my point.
Finally, I know my basketball. I know UK basketball. I think I have a knowledgable perspective.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
All that is fine.
I will even ignore your hubris, it’s part of your charm in a weird sort of way.
All I ask is that you behave in a more personable, less combative manner, and I will be thankful. I will try very hard to ensure everyone else returns the favor.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions
Show me ( or anyone else for that matter) the proof.
That is all I ask. Give me a witness. Show me a video. Show me someone that says he was somewhere else when he took the test. The NCAA has to cover its own exposed derriere’. Their clearinghouse let the kid in. They told Memphis he was cleared to play. If they do nothing then they will have everyone else screaming if anything like this ever happens again. They have lost all respect and credibility as far as the knowledgable fans are concerned. Of course they havent had much for years.The NCAA hasnt given a tinker’s damn about anything but their fat bank accounts in a very long time.They have not made an impartial decision in forever. There is zero consistency in their rulings. More importantly they are doing this simply because the testing service says they got no cooperation in their investigation, not that they proved it wasnt him.
If you dont believe the ETS is fallable, I refer you to a group of Latino students in California a couple decades ago. Their tests were disallowed because they scored too high for their ethnic group. Not because they were proved wrong, because they were Latino. And I am not even going to go to the "culturally biased " line. This is a proven fact. In that instance the ETS never even admitted they were wrong after the kids tested again and performed better than the first test.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Timing
But they told Memphis midway through his freshman year that the tests were invalid. Memphis could have benched Rose to save themselves.
Robert Dozier’s test were deemed ineligible and Georgia chose to revoke his scholarship. They acted on the information they were presented. Memphis did not. That is why Memphis is in trouble.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 20, 2009 11:19 PM EDT up reply actions
Look at this article closely
Memphis did their own investigation and found no proof. Just an accusation and a maybe from a handwriting expert.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Fair enough
If the appeal is successful, the case is closed – the NCAA f-ed up.
But if it is not, will you still allege foul play?
I understandand agree with what you are saying, there is always room for doubt. But it seems to me there is a pretty solid case again Rose, a case we are not privy to reviewing. And the article you presented shows the Memphis argument, I would like to see the full ETS and NCAA case – doubt we will. (You can completely turn around my above statement by saying how could I believe in something I am not allowed to review. But I still don’t see any rationale for the ETS and NCAA to “cover their asses.” They will look better getting it right.)
They don’t even refer to Rose by name, why would they name the people they interviewed, experts they consulted, heck even disclose the fingerprint, signature, video evidence they might have.
Duke should vacate the ‘99 season, 100%. But just because they haven’t is not a reason for Memphis to be given a free pass. I have a feeling USC is getting what is coming to them, in very grand scale.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 20, 2009 11:36 PM EDT up reply actions
Who does the appeal go to??
And I would LOVE to see the whole case. Please someone prove to me that i am being irrational by asking for all of the facts. Like I said before, if this were a real court case, it would have been thrown out a long time ago.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
And I am really not alleging foul play, I am alleging that
the NCAA acted without proof. Which is their usual method of doing things Shoot first, then ask the dead all of your questions.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
They took three months to act though
I will agree to disagree with you on this one since I won’t convince you and you won’t convince me.
Leaving behind my feelings for Calipari, Memphis, one-and-done players and the current state of college basketball… I think it is more likely than not that Rose cheated. And that is not New America, that is Civil America.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 20, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions
Correction
They actually took over year and half to shoot. 3 months to rule.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 20, 2009 11:53 PM EDT up reply actions
No matter how long they took,
they still have handed down the punishment without getting enough evidence for proof. Unless they ARE holding something back, (and for the life of me I can not understand why they would do that) then they deserve the waxing they are getting from the public right now for not making their info public. Like I said, just show me……that’s all….just show me.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Whatever you think ...
… about “one and done” players and Calipari, the reality is that there is very little evidence that Rose cheated. The only evidence is a handwriting analysis. The evidence that he did not cheat is his own word that he was present at the exam, and did nothing wrong.
Now, absent further proof, there is simply no way a rational person can assume with any reasonable hope of being right that Rose cheated. There were some suspicious things, and because those weren’t answered timely, Rose’s test got invalidated. Memphis found insufficient proof that Rose cheated in its own investigation, and quite frankly, there is no way they could have. The ETS simply decided that since Rose didn’t cooperate, his test was invalid. Invalid test=ineligible athlete=forfeited wins. That was the entirety of the NCAA’s process.
Your complaints against recruiting one and dones and the “current state” of college basketball are opinions that you are entitled to hold, but what we are talking about here is the result of a process, what we call “due process.” Facts matter a lot more than opinions in such cases, and what I and the rest of us are talking about are facts, not subjective judgments about what college basketball should look like.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 20, 2009 11:59 PM EDT up reply actions
woah... easy
I didn’t complain about any of those “one and done”, Calipari, Memphis. For all you know I love them all.
You have very little proof Rose cheated. Just because you have no proof, doesn’t mean ETS and the NCAA have no proof either.
You ≠ NCAA ≠ ETS ≠ Ruling authority
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 21, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
Well ...
What does this mean:
Leaving behind my feelings for Calipari, Memphis, one-and-done players and the current state of college basketball… I think it is more likely than not that Rose cheated. And that is not New America, that is Civil America.
Just aksin’.
Second, while it is true that there may be more that we don’t know, it is clear from the NCAA’s comments that the reason the ETS invalidated the score was not two pieces of evidence that he was cheating, rather, it was “failure to cooperate.” That’s what the NCAA said, not me.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 12:10 AM EDT up reply actions
haha
it means that even though i love calipari, memphis, one-and-done players and the current state of college basketball, i am deeply pained by my belief that rose cheated.
be careful. that isn’t what the ncaa said. that is what memphis said the ncaa said. they might have said more and memphis chose to exclude it when giving information to a chicago newspaper obviously protective of its homegrown superstar.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 21, 2009 12:15 AM EDT up reply actions
Well ...
… if I have wrongly attributed a position to you, I do apologize.
It is surely possible that Memphis deliberately dissembled in order to make their case look stronger, but it seems a passing strange position to take. Is there something in their rebuttal that gives you reason to believe that they are misleading the public? I can find nothing but a motive, which is always there in such cases. The NCAA has not accused Memphis of not being thorough or obstructing the investigation, so clearly they don’t believe that is so.
The fact is, the NCAA rep was who I quoted, and that’s who DeCourcy quoted. So that would seem to auger against the premise of your argument. The NCAA themselves said that it was a “failure to cooperate,” so I fail to see how Memphis could be misleading us about that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Motive
And that’s where the basic divergence in our perspectives occurs.
I think Memphis has more motive to selectively release bits of its rebuttal to the public, to cast the university and its internal controls in a good light and show that the NCAA was too quick to judge in alleging that Derrick Rose cheated on the SAT.
You think the NCAA and ETS has more motive to single out Memphis despite a lack of evidence and severely punish the program even though Memphis’ rebuttal (shockingly) column claims Memphis did not wrong.
Tomatoes, tomatoes (that sounds a lot better when said and not typed)
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 21, 2009 8:53 AM EDT up reply actions
Fair enough.
I have another post at the top that addresses the situation in more detail, and more coherently than I can in the comments.
There is certainly room for disagreement about that, and Memphis certainly has motive. Theoretically, though, that applies to everyone at any time — we all have motives for rulebreaking and lawbreaking, but we don’t. That’s why I’m unwilling to impute dissimulation to Memphis. That, and the fact that the NCAA would gig Memphis for doing so if they could — after all, it isn’t as if Memphis is blameless here in most of the investigation (i.e. the golf team, etc.).
I don’t agree with your statement that I think NCAA and ETS have more motive to single out Memphis. I don’t think that at all. I just think that the NCAA did not do the right thing. It happens. Sometimes, good people look at a set of facts and come to the wrong conclusion. That’s human nature.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
No one can claim witness, because no one knew him or his stand ins up in Detroit.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Or, more likely ...
… he took the test himself, just as he said he did. Occam’s Razor — the simplest explanation is the most likely.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 12:00 AM EDT up reply actions
When i took the stupid tests I had to show ID at every one....
Do they not require that still??
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
I'm sure they do.
Maybe now we’ll hear the argument that all black guys look alike. Sheesh.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 12:06 AM EDT up reply actions
as a matter of fact I had to show 2 picture ID's
my DL and my student ID….and both numbers were recorded by the people giving the test
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
and on that note
this discussion turned irrational and offensive. no one is alleging that and it is ridiculous to bring up.
its been fun, now it is time to blog about nothing since there is never anything going on in georgetown news.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 21, 2009 12:09 AM EDT up reply actions
OK, maybe that was too far, but you have to admit
there is a lot of smoke and not a lot of meat on the bone here. At least so far.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Tru is probably tired
he has been working on a big project and having a battle of wits with an unarmed man in the form of a Cardinal fan up there.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
haha no offense taken, ive done the same
this is really too good of a story for me to give up on. gives my august work lull a whole new meaning.
pitino is the luckiest SOB to have this come up and overshadow his “improprieties”
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 21, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
That situation is sad.....a lot of us on here have ( had, maybe)
high regard for that man. He accomplished a lot here and still holds a high place of honor for some
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
come back anytime.....
this is one of the few places you wont be chastised just for your opinion. Act like an ass and they will eat your lunch for you though.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
i got plenty of places to act like an ass
including my own blog.
ill keep yours classy
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 21, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions
Big deal.
I had to show an ID in Newport to get beer when I was 17, too. What’s your point?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
my test was conducted at Wright State University in 1981
they asked for my DL, and when I presented it, they asked if I had any other kind of ID….I used my student ID….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Careful Guys
For the most part, all of what you said could be very well possible, albeit unlikely in my opinion. But the ID part is going down the wrong path.
(1) I took the SAT a lot more recently that 1981 and I only had to show 1 picture ID. How do I know this for sure? Because I did not have a driver’s license when I took the test my junior year (I was a youngin in my grade). I only had my student ID, a laminated piece of paper. And my proctor was my best friend’s dad, who was a teacher in my high school.
(2) The SAT website states you need acceptable Photo ID (link). One form. Of any of the following (Link)
The two picture ID point is ridiculous and wrong. The only place I have been asked to show two picture IDs was at a bar. Even the DMV when registering a car, new address or new license doesn’t ask for two picture IDs. Not even required when applying for a passport.
Good talk.
by Hire Esherick on Aug 21, 2009 9:01 AM EDT up reply actions
I had to show two IDs when I took the ACT
That was 1997……damn I’m old.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Well ...
… I took the ACT in 1974, and quite frankly, I have no bloody idea what, if any, ID I had to show. I just remember I scored pretty well. :-)
In the end, all this is just smoke. Nobody is going to be able to prove, I feel, that Rose did not take the test. It will remain forever academic.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I remember handing the lady my IDs
And she took at least two minutes staring me up and down to make sure I was the same person as the IDs.
Of course, maybe she was just checking me out too……
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
A cougar tester....ok...thats funny coop.....
I like that one…..thought I was the only one who thought that way….lol
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
My point is that ID's can be faked, especially if there is a willing party to look the other way.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
No doubt, that is true.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 10:22 AM EDT up reply actions
...and that was Newport, KY not Rhode Island, by the way. :-)
What a garden spot! However, for all it’s shortcomings it was a target rich environment for all of us 17 yr olds to get the weekend started ‘right’.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Heh.
Well, it’s no worse than Bowling Green, I would say. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions
Newport has undergone a lot of redevelopment
The Levee, Aquarium, Hofbrau House, etc.
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
But you still have to drive through some serious ghetto to get there!
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
Nah, just take 471
You want to see serious ghetto, cross the river…….
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
Over-the-Rhine
You can also see it in the movie Traffic with Michael Douglas. That is where the kids get the crack.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I drive by it every day going to work
First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...
The Hofbrau House is owned by a fellow classmate of mine.
The entire city has undergone a transformation. Much of me says thank god…..however, a small, small part of me misses the ‘excitement’.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Yeah but. . .
He apparently took the test in Detroit (not his hometown of Chicago), which also happens to be the home of WWW. That (I think) is why people are making the connection back to recruiting/Memphis, and ultimately, Calipari.
I’m not sayin’ anything, I’m just sayin’. . .
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
Interesting
I find it odd that he took the test in Detroit. His school has been accused of altering his grades. I figure if he was going to cheat on the test he would have done it at home where he could be reasonably sure it would be taken care of.
WWW lives a lot of places. I wouldnt put to much focus on his pad in Detroit Rock City but I see your point.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Apparently
He took the test in Detroit because he and his family would be there to watch the Bulls/Pistons playoff game (according to DeCourcy’s article). Accepting that as true, I’m not sure I would let my teenage son travel to watch a playoff game while he is about to take the most important (to that point) test in his life. I think my parents made me go to bed at 9:00 the night before mine. But that is another matter. . .
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -Inigo Montoya
Haha.
Oh, boy. The grassy knoll strikes again.
Rose had an explanation for that, as well, that sounds reasonable.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
The NCAA has made it clear that they can hand out any punishment they want
and it doesnt matter, because they answer to no one.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
I honestly have no feelings on the matter except these.
It used to be that in this country a man was innocent until proven guilty. That has now become the reverse. Welcome to the New America!
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
FYI: Rose's comment... Classy.
It’s one comment but I think it shows some self absorbtion on his part.
“Rose, in a statement released by his attorney Thursday, said ‘it is satisfying to see that the NCAA could find no wrongdoing on my part in their ruling.’ "
I don’t think I like this guy too much.
No matter where you're at, there you are
not sure he meant it that way
living in chicago, i’ve gotten to see and listen to a lot of derrick rose interviews. Now this is just my opinion and how I read into his words, but I think it’s more of a veiled shot at the NCAA. I believe he’s saying that “although the NCAA is punishing Memphis, they never found any proof that I did anything wrong.”
again, just my opinion.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Aug 21, 2009 11:01 AM EDT up reply actions
Yeah.
I took it that way as well.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Aug 21, 2009 11:30 AM EDT up reply actions
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