Kentucky Football: John Clay Provides the Debate Subject of the Day
This morning, John Clay has an article that proved rather thought provoking for me. In it, he discusses the fact that UK's out of conference scheduling really didn't get any better with the addition of a four-year agreement with newly-minted FBS school Western Kentucky, even if it is a neutral site game.
Clay wonders, when other SEC schools (even including Vanderbilt) are scheduling FBS opponents for home-and-homes, where is the beef in Kentucky's schedule? He fairly points out that the weakness of the non-conference schedule is a strategy, not an oversight, but the gist of his argument is that Western adds precious little muscle to a skin-and-bones NC slate, and that UK is not likely to replace either of its remaining two NC spots with FBS home-and-homes.
I am of two minds on this, the first emotional and the second calculating. I would love to see UK play a much tougher non-conference slate, with at least one more FBS team in there where we travel every other year. I am tired of hearing guffaws from other SEC teams, however tenuous their footing on the subject, about UK's non-conference schedule. If UK really is a football team on the rise, it should reasonably be expected to show it with tougher scheduling. Beating Norfolk State is just not going to get the respect of anyone, and FCS or lower teams just shouldn't be on our schedule.
Read on ...
The other side of this argument is that virtually every other SEC team's NC schedule looks at least somewhat similar to ours. Let's take a peek, shall we?
| SEC East | ||||||
| Kentucky | Florida | Georgia | USC | Tennessee | Vanderbilt | |
| Team/Conf | Miami (OH)/MAC | CSU (FCS)/Big South | OK St./Big 12 | NC St./ACC | WKU/Sun Belt | W. Car.(FCS)/Southern |
| Louisville/BE | Troy/Sun Belt | AZ St./Pac 10 | FL Atl./Sun Belt | UCLA/Pac10 | Rice/CUSA | |
| LA Monroe/Sun Belt | FIU/Sun Belt | Tenn. Tech (FCS)/OVC | SC St. (FCS)/MEA | Ohio/MAC | Army/Ind. (FBS) | |
| EKU (FCS)/OVC | Florida St./ACC | GA Tech/ACC | Clemson/ACC | Memphis/CUSA | GA Tech./ACC | |
| Result | 1 FCS/3 FBS/1 BCS | 1 FCS/3 FBS/1 BCS | 1 FCS/3 FBS/3 BCS | 1 FCS/3 FBS/2 BCS | 0 FCS/4 FBS/1 BCS | 1 FCS/3 FBS/1 BCS |
| SEC West | ||||||
| Alabama | Arkansas | Auburn | LSU | Mississippi | Mississippi St. | |
| Team/Conf | VA. Tech/ACC | Missouri St./MVC | LA Tech./WAC | Washington/Pac 10 | Memphis/CUSA | Jackson St.(FCS)/SWAC |
| FIU/Sun Belt | TAMU/Big 12 | WVU/BE | LA Lafayette/Sun Belt | SE. LA(FCS)/Southland | GA Tech./ACC | |
| North TX./Sun Belt | E. Mich./MAC | Ball St./MAC | Tulane/CUSA | UAB/CUSA | Houston/CUSA | |
| UT-Chat.(FCS)/Sothern | Troy/Sun Belt | Furman(FCS)/Southern | LA Tech./WAC | N. AZ(FCS)/Big Sky | MTSU/Sun Belt | |
| Result | 1 FCS/3 FBS/1 BCS | 0 FCS/4 FBS/1 BCS | 1 FCS/3 FBS/1 BCS | 0 FCS/4 FBS/1 BCS | 2 FCS/2 FBS/0 BCS | 1 FCS/3 FBS/1 BCS |
Note: I have noted any non-FBS schools as FCS, and that could be technically wrong as I did not research the actual division standing of each one. Suffice it to say that they are really, "FCS or below." Also, BCS refers to teams in conferences with an automatic BCS bid to the conference champion. Most of the FBS teams above participate in the BCS.
A quick perusal of all this, and we can see that UK's schedule is actually no weaker, as a general proposition, than the vast majority of the SEC. Georgia can unquestionably lay claim to the toughest non-conference schedule in the SEC by a pretty wide margin, and Ole Miss the weakest, but the rest are somewhere in-between. Kentucky's non-conference schedule looks pretty much the same on paper as Florida, Vanderbilt, Alabama, Auburn, and Mississippi State. It can be a subject of debate as to whether having four FBS but non-BCS teams on your slate is stronger than having 1 FCS and 1 BCS, but overall, it looks to me like everyone is pretty much the same with an exception or two.
So why, I would ask, should UK risk a bowl and the attendant exposure and money to play another BCS competitor when it has yet to prove it can consistently win enough games in the SEC to make up the difference? From a purely emotion-free standpoint, it is the easiest path to getting the most recognition and money, and raising the profile of a historically downtrodden program.
Now, if UK were seriously lagging in scheduling vs. the rest of the league, I might be more inclined to let emotion rule the day. Clay's point is solid and I strongly want to agree with him, but when you look at reality, at least by the measurement I have chosen, UK's schedule doesn't stand out as particularly weak. Granted, Troy is a very strong FBS program, stronger than many BCS schools, as has been Ball State lately, so some will surely want to make an argument that those two teams toughen up their respective schedules, and I would be loath to disagree. But one of the reasons UK's schedule is suddenly seen as so weak is that Louisville has hit a rough patch, as has the Big East in general. Playing West Virginia still gets you a lot of credibility, but it wasn't too long ago that Louisville was as good or better for a stretch.
Still, my emotion-free point remains. From a purely mercenary standpoint, UK is doing the best thing for them right now. When will that "right now" qualifier have to be discarded? Hopefully really, really soon, but until UK proves its chops as a mid-pack SEC performer, I can't see how the mercenary in me could justify that decision as a wise one.
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Tru, I am curious about something
I dont know if you looked this up, and maybe we need to get Forty on this, but how are our non-conf opponents ranked in comparison to the other schools? I am with you on Georgia playing a nightmare of a schedule, but I wonder if we would not be better served by playing that kind of a schedule until we do get where we can win against that Florida/Georgia/Tennessee/S.Carolina crowd with regularity. I believe we can beat teams like Arizona St, G.Tech, Clemson, Florida St with regularity now. Would a schedule with
Florida
Georgia
G.Tech
Clemson
Alabama
S.Carolina
Louisville
Tennessee
Vanderbilt
Arizona St
Florida St
Marshall/Ohio U/Western/Eastern/Miami(Ohio) —Pickem
That type of schedule offers NO guarantees, but you post 7-8 wins against that type of competition every year and you have respect…..immediate and unequivocal.
And there are teams in there we CAN get 7-8 wins against. That schedule is heavily ACC slated, but there are teams that can be plugged in to replace a couple from there. I am all for an in-state game, but maybe it is time to step up and face the music that we need to make our ooc schedule tougher until we start posting a winning record against the in conference teams.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
When it comes to stats,
Forty’s expertise is solely basketball.
by mrmondaynite on Aug 2, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions
Clemson?
Really? I’m sorry, I can’t agree in the case of Clemson or Florida State. Clemson is a much better program, football-wise, than UK, as is FSU when they aren’t on probation. Their current state of disrepair is temporary, I assure you.
GA Tech and AZ St., Washington, Washington State … these are all the kind of programs that UK could compete with fairly and have a good shot at winning. There are others as well, like Indiana (whom we used to play), and Iowa who would be a nice matchup for UK.
So yes, we could do that. But if you are playing the percentages, your motivation to go down that road is reduced. Why would UK want to play a stronger schedule than a traditional power like Auburn or Alabama? So we can prove … what? We can’t prove we are a better program, even if we beat all the above, because, well, we aren’t. Thumping our chest and saying we play a stronger NC schedule than, say, Florida, will surely impress nobody while they are competing for the BCS championship and we are scrambling to get into the best bowl 6-6 or 7-5 can buy.
So ultimately, from a pure numbers standpoint, upgrading our schedule more than replacing the FCS team with a Sun Belt or MAC team makes little sense, if you ask me. The best way to be able to thump our chests is to leave the NC schedule as a fallback, and start beating SEC teams. Then, we can thump all we want.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
You are probably right on your approach
but I guess my comparison would be, what would be our ranking with 7 wins on that schedule, vs. 7 wins with the one we have? I realize a win against Florida or Bama or Ga would make that tilted in our favor, but lets say we win like this
Current: We beat ALL non-conf teams, as well as Tennessee, Vandy and S.Carolina. 7-5
Proposed: We beat ALL non-conf teams as well as Tenn, Vandy and SC 7-5
Which situation puts us in better position come Dec? I guess what I am getting at is that it might get us out of the State of Tennessee come bowl time.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
I agree
untill we can beat the better SEC teams with some consistency, we don’t need a stronger NC schedule, hopefully in a couple years that will change
I just wonder when we will be able to beat those SEC teams with regularity
Not complaining, but I just dont see us getting there any time soon…..I do not see Florida, Bama,Ga,Tennessee giving up their territory to us, not matter how much our recruits improve. We would have to get 2-3 times better caliber players every year to do that, and I dont think that they will sit still and let us catch up. They already have to deal with us in BBall, and Football is THEIR world. Or so they believe…..lol. I would like nothing better than for us to get there, I just think its a climb that NO ONE wants us to make.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Good things take time
you plan on going anywhere anytime soon? No? Then don’t stress it. Live your life and you will get to see UK football beat those SEC teams. That’s a fact. Snowballs need momentum, but first you gotta build them by hand and that takes a while. :)
The football program is FINALLY getting some stability and a PLAN together. Yeah it’s long term but that’s what it takes to get out of the cellar. A LONG TERM plan, that doesn’t include quick fixes or gimmick offenses.
As far as scheduling? What’s wrong with the status quo? Let it go.
I LOVE COOKING WITH WINE
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
I totally agree with Tru
It makes no real sense to upgrade our out of conf. schedule. We are in the arguably toughest conference in the nation. I think that is tough enough.
Ivory Tower Of Journalism
I wonder if John Clay actually believes the theory he proclaims in this piece. If so I would suggest that he is culpable to the charge of journalistic escapism. To compare the status of UK FB to that of the other members of the SEC East (Vandy excepted) in any fashion is fantastical, and to assert a requirement to strengthen the schedule as a means of improving that status is nonsensical. If Clay’s suggestion were to have been in place three years previous then UK’s streak of bowl game appearances would absolutely be less than 3 and possibly zero. Tru’s choice of the word calculating is not only proper but accurate and furthermore just. Barnhart and most likely Brooks have calculated that bowl appearances and victories are the most advantageous means of ameliorating UK’s place in the minds of those who make such judgments and more important in the perception of UK fans and supporters. To think contrarily is wishful thinking. John Clay should harken to the words of Mark Twain:
"How empty is theory in the presence of fact"
"The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it."
- H.L. Mencken
Clay just drumming up
something cause there ain’t squat to talk about.
I LOVE COOKING WITH WINE
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
Calculation Works
I find it humorous . . .
that other SEC schools and other SEC media joke about our football non-conf. schedule for two reasons: 1. As you point out, their schedule is not really any better and, 2. Their non-conference basketball schedules are complete jokes, yet they never talk about it and have used their game with UK to boost their RPI for years. What hypocrisy.
agree
hypocracy…..
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 2, 2009 11:29 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
hypocrisy...
sorry – trying the new mobile post and mistyped….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 2, 2009 11:31 PM EDT via mobile up reply actions
OK I know this is going to sound like I am belaboring
a dead point, but I got a chance to look at the SOS rating for UK vs. their schedule this year. It APPEARS as though UK plays a much softer schedule than any of our SEC opponents. These are Sagarin ratings, and I confess, I do not understand the inner workings of those but for your perusal here they are:
UK-70.48
FL-76.87
Bama-73.83
USC-77.13
AUB-72.99
MState-72.73
Vandy-75.70
GA-75.98
TN-73.40
According to what I read, Sagarin holds that more than a 2.0 differential is significant.
AUB and MState appear to be the only schools we match up against SOS wise….MAYBE, just MAYBE some of what Clay says holds water.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
Recruiting: Good News, Bad News
Cats have received their third commitment just in time to stem the rising anxiety. That’s the good news. Now the not so good: He’s undersized and
Does not project to be a fulltime runner at the next level and more a change-of-pace, complement back in the spread offense where he can take advantage of his skills as a space player.Plus he wasn’t recruited by any other SEC or major programs.
"The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it."
- H.L. Mencken
that seems to be
brooks’ modus operandi….i bet no other SEC school recruited Locke…
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Aug 3, 2009 11:00 AM EDT up reply actions
Video To Add To Good News
Sanders is elusive, good speed and hits the hole quickly. So, I suppose, one could say he is: small but quick, which is better than the legendary small but slow.
"The urge to save humanity is always a false front for the urge to rule it."
- H.L. Mencken
Doesn't matter
We’re not going to compete for an SEC championship for a long, long time. If we don’t schedule cupcakes, we’re not going bowling because UK has proven incompetent against SEC East foes. Even when we have a great year in recruiting by our standards, we’re still behind most of the rest of the conference recruiting-wise. I say keep the cupcakes, win six, seven and sometimes even eight games a year and keep everybody happy until basketball season.
I look for UK to compete for an SEC
championship in the next three years. I may be smoking something but I firmly believe we will. It takes time to develop a winning atmosphere and Brooks n Co have been building the program to that point. Now I am not saying that after three years we will be CONSISTANTLY competing for the SEC championship, but we will be a middle of the pack team who gets a few big wins every year and lets some get away. Patience grasshopper.
As far as UK being incompetent I disagree, I believe it has more to do with developing a winning attitude and if you have ever worked with someone who has low self-esteem, you would know that changing that attitude takes a lot of work.
I LOVE COOKING WITH WINE
Sometimes I even put it in the food.
I'd like to say we're not incompetent
But our losing streaks to UT and Florida have to be conquered. Yes, it’s partially self esteem, but it’s also about talent. It’s like our old basketball teams in the mid 90s. They had more talent, and they expected to win. We play those teams(Florida, UT) every year, we have less talent, and we play like we expect to lose. I hope you’re right and we win an SEC title, and maybe it could happen, but the SEC is so loaded I can’t see it. It’s not impossible to turn it around in basketball in a stacked conference in a year or two. Clemson could win the ACC next year. But football is about depth, and I just don’t know how we’re going to get the horses to outlast the depth of the premier conference in college football. I mean, Florida could probably beat a lot of NFL teams next year in all seriousness.
That said, there’s no excuse as to why we didn’t win 10 games two years ago. But that kind of offense doesn’t come around every year in the Bluegrass.
Good article
I would like to see where each of the Division One teams the tems play finished in the over all 120 ranings last year, but I certainly understand that would be a BUNCH of work.

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