The Big Blue Daily Mail -- Is Billy Gillispie Now in the Driver's Seat?
by Glenn Logan on Jul 4, 2009 1:24 PM EDT
in Kentucky Wildcats News
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PrintHappy Independence Day to the Big Blue Nation, Kentucky, and the United States. I hope you are all enjoying your long weekend and celebrating with friends, family and food -- lots of food. And fireworks and all that. It's great to have this annual reflection our our country's founding, and it gives us all an opportunity to consider how lucky we are to be citizens of the greatest nation in the world.
Now, for the UK-related news:
One of the things that should really disturb UK fans is when the school they love does something that appears deliberately deceptive, and that is exactly what has happened in the Billy Gillispie lawsuit.
UK filed a response to Billy Gillispie's lawsuit against them in Federal court asserting that the former UK coach was suing the wrong party, namely the UK Athletics Association Administration. The school says that Gillispie was employed by the University of Kentucky, not the UKAA, and the proper party was therefor the University of Kentucky itself:
"It is unfortunate that Mr. Gillispie has sued the UK Athletics Association, a nonprofit supporting foundation that was not his employer, in Federal Court in Texas," the release said. "Mr. Gillispie was a university employee, and the volunteer Board of the UKAA serves the university in a valuable, but purely advisory capacity."
It turns out that the UKAA has filed tax returns over the years showing coaches, including Gillispie, Rich Brooks and former UK Head Coach Tubby Smith as their highest-paid employee, indicating in each case the lion's share of the salary. So the question now becomes, who was Gillispie's employer? If it was the school, then it seems unlikely that the UKAA can list Gillispie as an employee for tax purposes. If it was the UKAA, then filing a response claiming a prima facia untruth as a basis for dismissing the suit would seem, at minimum, to draw the ire of the judge. In fact, it looks like a deliberate dissimulation, which the bar of both Texas and Kentucky would presumably frown upon, to say the very least.
Either way, there is no circumstance this layperson can see where UK comes out looking good. From a public relations standpoint, this is a slam-dunk for Gillispie no matter what legal technicality exists that might rescue UK's argument, or explain this apparently inexplicable dichotomy. Legally, I am less sure -- there may be some way that UK's argument is defensible and reasonable, but from a "common sense" standpoint (which, admittedly, isn't a legal analysis) this looks very bad for the University and their legal team.
I'll leave it to the attorneys in our membership to amplify this question from a more professional standpoint. Once again, I'll call on UK to make a serious attempt to settle this case before it becomes a debacle, if it didn't become one just now. Stuff like this might motivate Gillispie to take his chances with an actual jury.
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Kentucky Evil Empire T-shirt from Zazzle.com
Embrace the hate!
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Comments
DVD's Might Be Worth The Bucks
Just to see — if in fact it’s enclosed — how DDMO attacks the all-too-likely zone.
"The prosperity of commerce is now perceived and acknowledged by all enlightened statesmen to be the most useful as well as the most productive source of national wealth, and has accordingly become a primary object of its political cares."
--Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 12, 27 November 1787
Heh.
I doubt we will see that. Calipari can’t be giving his secrets away to rival coaches for such a small cost. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Kentucky Evil Empire T-shirt
Wow.
Is that something that you really want?? I remember Georgetown had that reputation at one time and nothing really positive came from that label. Seems like there are better reputations out there to strive for. This wouldn’t be one I would either celebrate or advertise (of course no advertisement is worth paying $29 for a tee-shirt).
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Get over yourself
You arent the protector of the UK reputation and no one really cares about your opinion when you get all preachy and holier than thou regarding UK.
29 dollare is way too much to pay for a tshirt thought.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Well someone should speak up. The fans seem to have a developed a vision of a bat.
Besides, once you offer a unique or interesting thought, I may consider your point of view. However you do have me wondering how one ‘thinks’ over a tee-shirt.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
You take this way to seriously
it’s sports it’s not life or death and you acting like your better than UK fans and that our priorities are in the wrong place is laughable.
If someone want to print a shirt that says evil empire they should be able to do it without you acting like their expectations for the program are so much less than what they should be and it’s just one example of your arguments.
You arent the college basketball morals/program police. It’s just sports. get some perspective.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
What a laugh someone your age preaching to me about perspective.
Thanks, but I’ll still give MY perspective….oh, and you don’t know what I do and don’t take seriously. In fact you don’t know me at all. Spare me your childish judgement.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Older
So because your older that means your wise and have some perspective. That’s a crock. Your “you dont know me argument” is also a crock and something a younger person might say. So are you but what am I? Good gosh man. Get real. What i know and what I base my observations on are the many comments you make on this board. When you say something of merit I agree with you but all too often you like to act pretentious and judgmental and pretend that you are better than many uk fans preaching at us about our respect for our program and how low we have fallen. Get a life man, You also chastise me for judging you yet do the same to me. Your a load man. You dont fool anyone with your act. I remember when you were griping with Tru one day and threatened to come back one here as another user name if he kicked you off. Your real mature.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
I can respect your perspective on comments regarding basketball....
…just spare me your juvenile psychobabal and your personal assessement of my character. You don’t know me and I doubt you have a psychology degree even if you did. If you can’t understand that, try this….I already have a wife who consistently tells me what I should and shouldn’t do.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
An evil empire
That is not even sort of friendly. Do they really want to call us evil now? I do not know why anyone that is really a fan would buy one. Sorry bballsophist, I don’t see that very clear.
Blue, there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Thank you!
I don’t find “Evil Empire” very clever, either. Not to mention, it’s hardly original as everybody knows that the “Evil Empire” trademark belongs to the Yankees. Let them have it.
I'm not actually going to buy one.
I just wanted to express how little I could care about something like this.
by BBallSophist on Jul 6, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions
Good going bballsophist
I just couldn’t understand anyone wanting one. Glad to know I may have misunderstood your comment.
Blue, there is no other color to Bleed !!!
Look in your closet somewhere ...
… way, way back in the back, probably moth-eaten and dusty, and see if you can locate your abandoned sense of humor an irony. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
maybe i can find it somewhere...
just that we have not won a single game yet and, well, i prefer to do my talking on the court.
for now, have to go with hoze on this one. i will embrace the hate as much as the next fan, but do not want to fan the flames – unless it is on the court……
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jul 5, 2009 4:43 PM EDT up reply actions
Looks like most seem to agree with me.
I guess the emperor really is naked. How’s that for irony?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Heh.
Agree with what? That you take yourself waaaaay to seriously?
You have accused UK fans of doing that over and over again, yet when I find it amusing, you tell me I should take it seriously. Convenient. Inconsistent, and maybe even a touch hypocritical. But convenient.
As for those who agree with you, I can only say, “Relax, and learn to laugh at ourselves.” I think casting UK as the “Evil Empire” hysterical. I really do. I even enjoy the idea quite a bit. Not enough to buy a T-shirt, but remember, many people liked Darth Vader — I know I did.
When people want to paint you with a name as hyperbolic as that, it means two things that UK fans should not only embrace, but celebrate — jealousy and fear. How many of us have lamented that opponents no longer fear us? How many times have I heard members boo-hoo the fact that nobody fears Rupp Arena or the denizens thereof anymore? Hundreds… nay, thousands. Hello, people! The fear is back, and this is the first sign. You know fear and jealousy are back when you see stuff like this.
Make up your minds — either be loved and be mediocre, or be hated and be elite. That’s how it works. Just ask Duke.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
You are all too confused and maybe a little paranoid.
Although I do appreciate you taking ME so seriously. My comment on agreement was the folks that lined up behind my position of the tee-shirt message a little too far. Other than that, I don’t know what in the heck you are referencing.
You make a comment that people should ‘fear’ UK and are ‘jealous’….and you call me way too serious. What a joke!!!
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Dude.
HozeKing said:
Is that something that you really want?? I remember Georgetown had that reputation at one time and nothing really positive came from that label. Seems like there are better reputations out there to strive for. This wouldn’t be one I would either celebrate or advertise (of course no advertisement is worth paying $29 for a tee-shirt).
That’s what you said. There is no way you can twist this to mean what your comment above says.
I mean, seriously. Did I misread this? If so, would you care to explain what the heck you meant?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Dude II
You said:
You have accused UK fans of doing that over and over again.
Doing what? I can’t follow your point. If you are circling back to my comment regarding the message on the tee-shirt, I think it is pretty clear. Trying to position UK to be the new Evil Empire is not a good thing. It is premature. It is childish. It suggests that their means to the winning end may be suspect. I could go on. More than a few have agreed.
Why are you confused? I know you get commonly twisted all up in a knot when people have dared disagreed with you. Maybe that’s the issue.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
"Relax and learn to laugh at ourselves"
Even though I don’t agree with you in this case as I think the whole "Evil Empire" t-shirt idea is quite lame (it’s probably mostly because it reminds me of the Yankees and I loathe the Yankees) and actually I can’t believe we are really debating a t-shirt idea, but what the hell, things are slow, : ) — and I suppose I’m probably not the best person to run a t-shirt idea by in the first place as I absolutely abhor t-shirts and you will rarely if ever catch me in a t-shirt of any kind (maybe, just maybe a UK shirt with a cute little logo or something, but certainly not something ostentatious that screams at you, as I prefer to indulge in and wear the latest fashions) BUT, I do think that "Relax and learn to laugh at ourselves" is a pretty healthy philosophy and even though I won’t be purchasing the "Evil Empire" t-shirt, for me, that philosophy makes this whole fandom thing totally enjoyable and it’s good medicine for this fan. : )
Air McNair Found Fatally Shot!
Former Titan QB and female dead from gunshot wounds to head.
"The prosperity of commerce is now perceived and acknowledged by all enlightened statesmen to be the most useful as well as the most productive source of national wealth, and has accordingly become a primary object of its political cares."
--Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 12, 27 November 1787
Twitter: Pilgrim To Oklahoma State
"The prosperity of commerce is now perceived and acknowledged by all enlightened statesmen to be the most useful as well as the most productive source of national wealth, and has accordingly become a primary object of its political cares."
--Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 12, 27 November 1787
Hope NCAA Makes Him Eligible
Next year, without sitting out again.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 4, 2009 6:58 PM EDT up reply actions
agree --
they should, but then again, it is the ncaa we are talking about……..
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jul 5, 2009 12:16 AM EDT up reply actions
pick-up game rumors....
tru sent a link on twitter – see right hand side of home page – on some talk about pick-up games.
unfortunately, the ones i saw did not include wall.
however, i thought cousins was going to “kill” ramon harris in one game for dribbling too much – and they were on the same team – they were really mouthing (actually it was one way). later in the game ramon passed the ball to cousins (as if to say, lets move on) and cousins (who was wide open for a three) threw it right back at ramon. i told strickland on the way out, he better be prepared to break up a few fights at practice. i cannot imagine what they will be like when you add orton and PP into the mix.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
Orton and PP
probably less attitude when Pat’s back in town. I cant see him taking much of that from his teammates.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
just glad to hear that PP won't have to set the competitive tone
by himself – sounds like the freshman are serious competitors……….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jul 5, 2009 12:17 AM EDT up reply actions
29 bucks for the Evil Empire shirt? Who designed it, Ralph Lauren?
by don'tshootmei'macard on Jul 4, 2009 7:37 PM EDT reply actions
Michael Jackson
"The prosperity of commerce is now perceived and acknowledged by all enlightened statesmen to be the most useful as well as the most productive source of national wealth, and has accordingly become a primary object of its political cares."
--Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 12, 27 November 1787
I Think The Lawsuits Continue For A While
UK lawyers surely know who employed Gillispie (legally, anyway). One would think.
This gets MUCH uglier before it’s settled. It may ultimately cost Mitch his job. If it goes really badly, perhaps even Dr. Todd.
It will really interesting if it goes to court.
Not If
They wind up getting UK into some sort of IRS problem.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 5, 2009 7:58 AM EDT up reply actions
Well ...
… I think, actually, that the IRS isn’t the problem here. What is likely to be the problem is the response to the federal lawsuit.
I think the UK Athletic Association is the proper employer in this case, and that Gillispie has sued the proper party. I do expect that the Texas court will entertain the idea of moving it to Kentucky, but I believe it will remain in federal court.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Maybe, Maybe Not
If it turns out that UK is the real employer but UKAA was represented as the employer for tax reasons, there could be some IRS difficulties.
Not knowing anything about the legal side, I think coaches are probably employed by BOTH. The basketball coach is a University employee (like any other) but also UKAA “employee” for the extra compensation beyond coaching salary and benefits.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 5, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions
No doubt ...
… he received compensation from both. What that means in a legal sense as to who’s employee he is (one or both) is beyond my ken at the moment.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
He's hired and fired throught the UK HR system
dont know if that has any bearing on who’s employee he is but there it is.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
From this lawyer's perspective,
and as I stated before, Texas courts don’t like letting cases slip away to other jurisdictions. This is probabaly just enough to keep the case there. Whether the Kentucky court abstains or dismisses is another question, but I don’t see Texas letting this go.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.
Pay the guy so it'll go away.
It seems the president of the university should tell what he knows to be the truth, or is it he just listens to Barnhart and goes with it? Surely both of them know who signed the checks to pay Gillispie. Why should we expect the athletic director, who’s base is 425,000 dollars to keep up with wants going on in the athletic department? I understand he’s the third or fourthj highest paid AD in the SEC. Guess the dollar just doesn’t go as far in Kentucky as in other southern states. It doesn’t buy as much it seems.
It’s a mess and the longer the whole thing goes on the dirtier the University looks. Pay the guy and get on with the rest of the program. Barnhart made the bad move but we certainly don’t want to examine his success at hirings or we might actually want some one else. (HINT)
Yeah.
I think that’s what they should do, as well. Or at least make him a serious offer in settlement and have done.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I mentioned this in May
“This whole hired/fired by UK, paid by UKAA relationship could throw a lot of college programs into a turmoil if this issue actually goes to trial. This structure has evolved to support the pay structure of coaches in the major sports but hasn’t been challenged in court to date. There are a lot of interested parties hoping for a compromise before trial.”
Pay the guy
I think that would be a really wise move for UKAA/UK? Although,obviously a lawyer I’m not.
Happy Independence Day ASoB !!! Aren’t we so thankful for the freedom of speech? LOL
:-)
Blue, there is no other color to Bleed !!!
I Doubt UK Or UKAA Has An Extra $6 Million In Their Pocket(s)
And I highly doubt he deserves that (full) amount anyway.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 5, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions
Well ...
… “deserves” has nothing to do with it, I think. It’s all about whether or not the UKAA is legally obligated to pay him, deserving or otherwise.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Nor Do I Think UK Is Legally Bound To Pay Him
He was dismissed For Cause.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 5, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions
DO NOT Pay The Guy
IMO…BCG’s refusal to sign a long term contract cost him any argument he has for compensation post being fired. I hate the thought of him being paid another cent for his performance (contractual or on the court) as UK’s Head Basketball Coach. I hope UK fights this tooth and nail even it it cost 6 million or more in legal fees.
UK Shares The Blame For That
He should have been forced to sign contract in 2008 or let go then.
2 years was far too long to drag out a dispute like that.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 5, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions
Hind sight is 20/20 on that one
It’s easy to say that seeing where it all wound up at … but, after his 1st season (made big dance, injuries, etc…) they still felt like we could win with him and contract talks were uncomfortable but not yet unbearable …. unlikely they would have let him go at that point …. SHOULD have – yes, that would have been nice.
Like Tru said, make a serious offer and cut losses – we’ve got bigger fish to fry than to let this be the focus of UK basketball.
Don't Think So
UK was 18-13 in 2008. Not terrible, not great either.
Contract talks were going nowhere, even then.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 5, 2009 4:17 PM EDT up reply actions
Yeah,
but even at 18-13 he was somewhat the darling of college basketball after that season. Co-SEC COY, etc. I also remember how the UK faithful were freaking out because we though ’ol T-Boone Pickens was going to steal Gillispie away and pay him $$$$$$. If I remember correctly, Gillispie probably had that job if he wanted it, but opted instead to stay at UK.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.
Not For Mine
6-7 in OOC schedule, 0-2 in postseason play (SECT and NCAA). 12-4 against the weakest SEC in many years.
Certainly injuries were a factor but many of those early L were not caused by injuries.
I don’t think there was ever serious interest by Okla St AD in Gillispie. He wanted Self.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 6, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions
BCG
Just back to reading. Tru makes a lot of good points. The actual employer is such a strange question to be in dispute. The tax records are certainly at odds with the very first university response to the suit. I too am not an attorney but the face validity of this surely seems to favor BCG. The point might be here that the for-profit attorney from Houston is more clever than the Lexington ones. The university might think a settlement agreement a smaller price to pay than a trial. In another way however the cat may proverbally be “out of the bag” with the difference in the not-for-profit athletic association and the university tax records. Surely those who love to “hate the evil empire” are sniffing all that they can find. A scandal that shows institutional wrong-doing is quite a bit higher on the “I gotcha” scale than a mere coach. Does anyone know if this is standard practice?
Basketball Coaches
Receive a salary (and benefits) like any UK employee. But they also receive extra compensation from radio/TV, camps, etc. I think it’s likely that most coaches get income from dual (if not multiple) sources.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 5, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions
tax records
The multiple sources of income was not my point. Most coaches receive salary plus compensation. My concern is the university statement in the beginning that BCG filed against the wrong entity. Tax records seem to indicate that is not true. I am unclear of the university’s reasons for their filing.
I'd Think UK Has Been Sued By Athletic Department Employee Before
I remember the Hauser lawsuit against Pitino, for example.
UK lawyers may (and should) have prior experience as whether it’s UK or UKAA as the employer.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 6, 2009 6:22 AM EDT up reply actions
lawsuit
my hubby ..the lontime lawyer thinks its strange that the General Counsel ..will not back ..up the “employment tale”…..We really need to realize that it is time to pay and go…Not continue with “these half or non truths”….This is the true..“.2 wrongs don’t make a right”…Yes maybe the hire was wrong…but lying makes nothing better and we look silly at best…immoral at worst.
2 wrongs don’t make a right
like Tru states above: “Make up your minds — either be loved and be mediocre, or be hated and be elite. That’s how it works.”
DO NOT Pay The Guy. The way I see it is UK was the base employer of BCG despite how the salary was reported and viewed by the IRS. I’d like to think and REALLY believe UK accountants and attorneys thought this through before proceeding with the change of venue stuff. UKAA only upheld the “contractual” side of the hiring. I may be wrong but the sovereign immunity applies in this case and it should be heard in Frankfort with the result being UK owes BCG nothing. I just hope the judge in Frankfort (please let it be Frankfort) sees eye to eye with me and we can move on with or without the evil empire reference.
If UK gets to 2000 and stays ahead of NC with # of wins this will be long be forgotten by 4-6-2010. If not, Cal’s honeymoon will be over and the BBN will be looking for another cross bearer.
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