WHO IS UK's "#1 BASKETBALL RIVAL"?

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 23, 2009 3:59 PM EDT Comment 87 comments

Tru's glib reference today to Louisville as "our #1 rival" irked me, because I have never regarded Louisville as our #1 rival in basketball, and wonder why anyone else does.

A true rivalry can exist only among equals, or at least among peers, and without intending any slight to Louisville, I do not regard it as a peer institution with respect to its basketball program. It has never known true dominance, but only momentary flashes of brilliance due almost exclusively to the genius of two coaches -- Crum and the guy they have now. And as to that guy -- UK made a name for him before his NBA washout, and he is present at UofL now only in a vain attempt to recapture there what he had here; UL is just his substitute UK. In other words, they owe even their present glory to UK.

I think what happens is that some UK bloggers/commentators allow provocateurs like Hoze-king to get their goat, and lose perspective. They let the braggart at the water cooler get into their head. I want to win the Louisville game, but for me it is not much different from playing Western -- just another in-state wannabe trying to steal some of our glory, and those fans who pump up the alleged rivalry are just playing into Pitino's hands.

Outside of certain web sites and a few rather parochial fan circles, for most of the UK fans I meet, it is UNC, and not Louisville, who is regarded as our #1 rival. For most of us, a loss to the Tarheels hurts a hell of a lot worse than dropping one to the dirty birds on the Ohio. I am not saying you are wrong if you do not feel the same way, but I will offer a few observations that might cause you to reconsider your feelings on the subject.

In the big picture, it is UNC, not Louisville, that is way ahead of us in Final Four appearances, players in the NBA, and National Players of the Year. It is UNC, not Louisville, that is roaring back up on us in the wins AND the National Championship categories, and it is UNC that can now make a legitimate claim to have "the best program in the history of college basketball" -- not Louisville.

UNC has more consecutive 20-win seasons, more #1 NCAA tournament seeds, more NCAA tournament victories, more weeks ranked in the Top 25 polls, and more victories against #1 ranked teams than we do (they have more than EVERYBODY else does in each of these categories). Louisville does not.

Let me feed you a few more sobering statistics. Our record against Indiana is 29 wins against 23 losses. Against Duke we are 11-8, against Kansas we are 19-6, and against Louisville we are 26-14.

Our record against UNC is 10 wins against 21 losses.

That's right, 10-21. The Tarheels OWN us. We have a 12-game edge in wins over the team Tru says is our #1 rival, but an 11-game deficit against UNC. That means that if Calipari extended the UNC series to ten games and we won every one of them, we would still have a losing record against UNC.

You tell me where the real rivalry lies.

When a Tarheel says that Chapel Hill is the all-time top NCAA program, what do we respond? "Well, we win as long as we're not playing you?"

And in case you weren't paying attention, the Tarheels just won two of the last five National Championships -- at a time when the coach who is to be our round-ball savior was at the top of his game at Memphis and still couldn't beat them.

Those SOB's have our number and are stealing our thunder, and I want them much worse than I have ever wanted Louisville.

Unlike the Tarheels, I do not see how the Louisville Cardinals could be fairly said to "rival" us in any way. They simply have a colliseum in the same state as we do, and they have many alumni who live nearby who try to bait us into discussions about the relevance of their basketball program. (Think Hoze-king, whose bait, sadly, far too many of you appear to take.) That makes us have to talk about them oftener than we do other teams, but it does not make them our rivals.

Again, you are certainly welcome to your own opinion about who our #1 rival is, and I suppose there is no "wrong" answer. But for me (and I think most of the Big Blue Faithful), that rivalry lies in Chapel Hill and not on the south bank of the Ohio River. I suspect that if UNC gets to 2,000 wins first and beats us again this year, there will be even more of you who are able to put the game with the filthy Cards in better perspective.

Here's to hoping you won't have to. Cheers!

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It's that

“Legend in Their Own Minds” syndrome they have Ken…..I brought up to Hoze yesterday that Louisville needed this rivalry a lot more than we do, and he scoffed at the idea as “my own self-importance” getting in the way. Other than the space of the miles between Lexington and Louisville, nothing else even makes this a rivalry. It is simply another one of the programs we have “beaten like a red-headed step-child”, as my father used to say.

I enjoy the game on an annual basis, but I would give it up in a heartbeat to trash UNC annually. Maybe we should develop a tournament where the top 10 teams in the standings of total wins play each other every year….might make for a good show….maybe play it during the holidays

Remember, we're having fun now!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jul 23, 2009 4:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

With all due respect...

I also scoff at the idea that Louisville needs the rivalry more. Louisville has proven, after a disastrous first year, that they can compete in the Big East. As long as they continue to do well in conference, the sports media’s overwhelming east coast bias will play in their favor and they won’t have to beat Kentucky to receive national attention.

Be a lot cooler if they did, though.

by don'tshootmei'macard on Jul 24, 2009 12:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You made the disclaimer

yourself there card…“As long as they continue to do well”…..I guess my analogy was more history based than current…..I have a tendency to do that….

Remember, we're having fun now!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jul 24, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sports media east coast bias

is over.

For the next 15 yrs ESPN will be hyping the SEC.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Jul 24, 2009 9:00 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Football Rival?

I don’t want to be a stick in the mud, but who in the SEC would you consider to be the Cats major football rival?
Quickly everyone is going to stay Tennessee. But down 24 and counting doesn’t make a very good rivalry. So, if you look at the games we actually go into each year and it can go 50-50, would Vandy be that one that usually spells success or failure? The one every one knows it put up or shut up time? I think Tennessee would say Alabama, they play each year and the winner is usually going to have a good season. Of course, Alabama has Auburn, a division and in state foe. Florida has Georgia.
Who do you think is the Cats rival? Not one we would like to beat. But a real rival.

by TheParisGuy on Jul 23, 2009 4:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

FB Rival...

If you want to look at a series that has been closely matched over the last decade or so, Miss. St. is a team to look at. The series is 6-6 over the last 12 years. Both teams need the win to work their way to bowl eligibility each year. I’ve never considered them a rival but it has been a competitive matchup over the years. Vandy feels like more of a rival as you mention but we have beaten them 9 out of the last 12 years. Those are probably the two most realistic rivalries out of the SEC. However, I would love to beat those “rivals” from the state just south of the Bluegrass! One day it will happen and it will be a glorious day!!!

by ukcat2169 on Jul 23, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rivals...(in no particular order)

Tennessee
Florida (?)
UNC
Puke

Let’s no forget the difference between true rivals and just these brief flings. People like Vandy and Louisville only recently have been an annoying fly landing on us whilst we try and sun bath by the pool. A true rival makes for exciting games and history to back it up. It took us decades to make UNC and Puke rivals like they are, lets not give innercity, commuter colleges like UL more attention they deserve…which is none.

by BleedinUKBlue on Jul 23, 2009 5:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Forgot the Hoosiers

by BleedinUKBlue on Jul 23, 2009 5:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well ...

With respect to your premise, which is:

A true rivalry can exist only among equals, or at least among peers, and without intending any slight to Louisville, I do not regard it as a peer institution with respect to its basketball program.

Would you not consider Auburn and Alabama rivals? By your definition, there is no way that they could be – Auburn has only one national championship over 50 years ago, and Alabama has seven, the most recent in 1992. Yet if you suggested that to either group, you would be advised otherwise.

I don’t think your definition works. There are many such examples of bitter rivalries among schools where cannot really be considered a “peer” by your definition. Indeed, UCLA/USC is such an example, or even UCLA/Arizona. Alabama vs. Tennessee offers another example, but it is nonetheless a huge rivalry.

I have used this same argument against Florida fans, and it works because they are not in the same state or traditional rivals. But when you have two teams that are perennially ranked in the same state fighting for bragging rights, it is a rivalry, make no mistake. Not only that, Louisville is a traditional rival (fairly modern tradition, admittedly, compared to the ancient enmity between Auburn and Alabama) not just in basketball but also in football. The rivalry extends across sports and is extremely intense.

So no matter how you rationalize it, there is no getting around the reality. UK and U of L are bitter rivals.

I consider UNC a big rival as well, but for most UK fans I know, it is a recent development. When we owned UNC back in the 1990’s, most UK fans I know greeted that game with a yawn, but the Louisville game with real, measurable zeal, and also the Arkansas game. The tables have turned a bit lately, with UNC getting the better of us five times in a row, they have risen to #1 on our hit list, while Arkansas is down so far that they have fallen off the radar completely for now. But Louisville is always intense, and will be even more so since Calipari is the coach at Kentucky.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Jul 23, 2009 5:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

How can Ken say that playing Louisville is like playing WKU??? I actually question Ken’s depth of commitment to the Big Blue if he doesnt understand that our most bitter rival is Louisville. There is also Duke, TN, FL, UNC, IU, and Mich St. There can be something to said for each of them as our rivals. But in my mind and heart Louisville vs. UK is a bitter rivalry along the proportions of Bama vs. Auburn, Texas vs. Oklahoma, or UNC vs. Duke. Despite what you think Ken, proximity has a huge amount to do with a true rivalry. If we didnt have a contract with UNC to play them every year I really wouldnt care with the exception of the fact that it helps our power rankings. On the other hand, playing Louisville just gets my juices and fanaticism for the Big Blue flowing.

by UKTimmy on Jul 23, 2009 6:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Question his commitment?

Thats silly. You describe UL as the definitive answer to this debate. Its not. It is one man or woman’s opinion.

Actually, I agree with Ken. In my eyes, UNC is our biggest rival, and beating them is more important to me than beating UL. Does this make me less of a fan? Of course not. I just harbor more concern for losing our rightful place as winningest college basketball program. The potential equality in prestige fuels my hatred for UNC. I can see very clearly why someone would consider UL our biggest rival. Just not me.

by DeadHeadCat on Jul 23, 2009 9:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Personally I hate UofL and UNC..Both are rivals and to me its hard to pick one or the other. But if it wasnt for the race to 2000 victories with UNC I would give the rival edge to Louisville. You have to add Duke .. Theres no love lost between the two schools and its always an exciting game to watch. But in the end. Theres nothing like kicking that UofL *ss and rubbing it in really good to a UofL fan when you get the opportunity .

by RossKYcats on Jul 23, 2009 10:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think many people confuse "bitterness" with true rivalry.

Bitterness is neither necessary nor sufficient to create a true rivalry where the competitive balance between the teams is missing. A game does not become a rivalry just because you can’t stand the jerk at work who will give you flack if your team loses. That’s just a personal issue between you and a co-worker, no matter how intensely or bitterly you feel it.

In that connection, I’m very disappointed to read about how much some UK fans say they “hate” this team or that team and its fans, usually just because they beat us every now and then and somebody at work gives them crap over the loss. When Laettner hit “the shot” I did not hate Duke because they hit the last shot. I lamented it, and I wept, but I did not hate Duke or even Laettner, but rather marvelled at his ability under extreme pressure to hit his 20th consecutive shot of the game.

As much as I despised Dean Smith and his smarmy liberalism, I respected what he was able to do on the court, and just desperately wanted to beat his tail as often as possible. It wasn’t hate or bitterness, just a recognition that his program was rivalling ours for the title of “best in the history of the game,” and I wanted to protect that title. And now Roy Williams has won as many championships in six years as Smith did in thirty-six. Against that background, I marvel that any UK fan could say he doesn’t care about the UNC game. I just don’t understand it at all.

I do not feel nearly as threatened or as challenged by Louisville, even with Pitino at the helm.

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 24, 2009 3:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ken, maybe you used the right word there

at the end…..“challenge” may be the better way to describe it. It is so much sweeter to beat someone who is considered your equal, or even your better. Of course the last 4 years have made all of these teams our equals…..but that will change…..

Remember, we're having fun now!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jul 24, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well ...

Bitterness is neither necessary nor sufficient to create a true rivalry where the competitive balance between the teams is missing.

I would agree, except there isn’t a lack of competitive balance between Louisville and Kentucky, particularly since the renewal of the annual game. Currently, our record stands at 17-11 versus the Cardinals since 1983, which is a solid .61 pct winning, but that hardly represents an uncompetitive game.

I do agree that making too much of the rivalry, i.e. “hate,” is unwarranted, and I don’t think I feel threatened by any team. But make no mistake, the Cardinals have more than challenged us over the years. Throughout history, the Cardinals have beaten UK all three times the teams have met in the NCAA tournament – they are undefeated against the ’Cats in the biggest, most meaningful games.

More than enough reason for rivalry, right there, if you ask me.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Jul 24, 2009 8:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes, but the question was "Who is UK's #1 rival?" instead of "Do we consider the UofL contest to be a rivalry?"

It isn’t that they have been complete pushovers, or that the game is ho-hum, but as I noted in my post, Louisville has essentially had two blips on the national scene, with Crum and Pitino. That history cannot even begin to compare with what UNC has done (and is doing) throughout its history.

There is no other team in the country that has done to us what UNC has done to us over the decades (Louisville can’t come close, in recent or ancient history), and UNC is really the only team that can lay serious claim to OUR position at number one. Kansas would be next closest, but they do not hold the 10-21 record over us that UNC does (see original post).

Even with such things as attendance (which is really the category of “fan support”), it is UNC that is our closest rival (other than Syracuse with the Carrier Dome). In the 19 years since 1990, UK has been #1 or #2 in attendance. Eight of those years UNC was back-to-back right behind us, and the Dean Dome was in the top three 16 of those 19 years. Louisville was in the top three twice, period.

The same thing is generally true of licensing royalties, although last year UNC outsold UK, which is embarrassing. The Cards, on the other hand, are just not in our league in so many ways, while Chapel Hill is always right there breathing down our neck.

I’m not surprised to hear fans say, “I really wanna beat our biggest IN-STATE rival.” What surprises me is that with the ass-kickin’ UNC has given us through the years, and with its recent dominance of everyone, and with it poised to supplant us as the winningest team of all time — what surprises me is that against that reality anyone can say it is Louisville who rivals us rather than UNC at the #1 position as our #1 rival.

Again, this is not to say they are wrong, just that I do not understand their priorities.

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 24, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Are you kidding?

The same thing is generally true of licensing royalties, although last year UNC outsold UK, which is embarrassing.

I don’t know if this is funny or pitiful. Good gawd, man…..get a grip. I have never seen anyone either tout or lament their ‘position’ based on how many shirts were sold. Congratulations. You have broken new ground. Good grief.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 26, 2009 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bitterness vs. rivalry

Ken, I think you are the one confused about bitterness vs. rivalry. If you have ever lived in Northern KY or Cincinnati, UC fans think there is a rivalry between UC and UK. Obviously and I dont think anybody on this site will dispute this, there is no rivalry between the two. UC fans are bitter that we wont play them and hate our fans and winning ways. I think you are a little confused about what site you are contributing to. This is a fan site and not ESPN, marvel all you want at Duke and Laettner, but most true fans HATE Laettner and that team. We arent here to write some unbiased commentary. I didnt say that I didnt care about the UNC game. What I said was that I wouldnt care if we didnt play them every year. Ask a UNC fan if we are their biggest rivals. I bet most would say Duke is their biggest rival. The way to solidify our rightful place in college basketball history is to win games, not just the UNC game, but all our games. UL is our biggest rival because it is an in state rivalry between two historically good teams for the last 40 years. Louisvillle has had down years and we have had down years, but even if we beat them during a down time, it is still the most important game of the year with the exception of any NCAA tournament game.

by UKTimmy on Jul 24, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Probably UNC fans looked to the UK games recently with a similar yawn ..

at least in 2007 is was close … they killed us in 2008.

Georgia/Georgia Tech in football is a big rivalry – ask Chan Gailey – too many losses to your rival and you get canned. Make no mistake in state braging rights are big business. Paul Johnsons and Tech’s victory over Georgia last season was bigger than the bowl game I think. The players got rings for beating their instate rival after 7 years of frustraton – that was overboard IMO.

Question is who is the #1 rival, for me it’s UNC …. I’ll watch them play another team just to root against them … as for the Cards – only care about them when they play us. They are biggest in state rival.

by ukcris on Jul 25, 2009 1:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

UNC and Louisville

Are both rivals in my estimation. Rivals for eternity. But, others come and go. At one time I personally wanted to beat Dale Brown and LSU any time we played them. I witnessed Arkansas hand Pitino his first loss at Rupp, and for awhile, they were rivals. The last few years Florida, Tennessee, and Mississippi State would qualify for me… Rivals are in the eye of the beholder…

"You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't"

by iam4ukintn on Jul 23, 2009 5:59 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Rivalry Is in The Beholder's Eye

That’s a truism and one can add an additional qualifier: rivalry also is also dependent on the field of contest, i.e. a UK BB rival would contrast with that for FB. I would venture that should you poll UK athletes their idea of a rival would differ from that of fans. To be candid I cannot name a current football rival and due mostly to the fact that UK hasn’t been competitive against those programs with which it aspires to rival — in my UK student time and for a number of years following it was undoubtedly the Vols with the week leading up to the game being a period of all sorts of student hijinks; 24 consecutive losses renders the concept of that rivalry absurd. If I was forced to pick one it would be — considering the annual importance of the game and the relative talent of the teams — Vanderbilt. As for BB my personal rival is UNC followed, for personal reasons, KU. Realistically speaking however UK’s decline into mediocrity signifies that those rivalries exists only in my mind. As for U of L, for no other reason that they reside in the Commonwealth and are coached by Pitino, they have moved up in my rival hierarchy

"The prosperity of commerce is now perceived and acknowledged by all enlightened statesmen to be the most useful as well as the most productive source of national wealth, and has accordingly become a primary object of its political cares."

--Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 12, 27 November 1787

by Wild Weasel on Jul 23, 2009 7:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Very well said WW

I live and work in TN, and was present the last time KY beat UT in football. I work with lots of TN fans, who never let me forget how long it has been. There have been so many times UK should have won, but for some reason, we just can’t seem to get it done. It wiil be a glorious day when it finally happens again.

"You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't"

by iam4ukintn on Jul 23, 2009 7:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Where a UK fan resides is a factor.

I live in Northern Kentucky. There are less UL fans in this area than other areas of the state. Consequently, there is less debate and fewer arguments between the fans of the two programs. I think this is a huge factor in a UK fan’s level of hatred for the Cards. Actually, I think the only reason I hate the Cards is because I’m supposed to!

For example: I hate the UC Bearcats. UK and UC fans in NKY are constantly trashing the other’s program. Very little connects the two programs, so it makes one wonder why the conflict exists. The simple fact that portions of the fanbase live along side one another creates this rivalry…….even though the two teams RARELY play one another.

By the way, when UK beat UC in the NCAA’s a few years back, it was a HUGE deal in the NKY area. Oh, how sweet it was!

by DeadHeadCat on Jul 23, 2009 9:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I also live in NKY

UC fans are wannabe UK rivals. They hate all day on UK, but they can’t stand that no one outside of 275 gives a crap about them.

If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.

by btcoop71 on Jul 23, 2009 10:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

True rivalry

is found in two facts. Fan base, and hatred. Count how many fans of NC are found in this area? The fan base is based on two teams here. WKY is a very distant third. NC is not third in the fan base of this area. Take a head count of the favorite teams in the area and you have your fan base speaking for itself. It has nothing to do with national success. Typically, the biggest rivals play against each other in the same area, who have the best success in that area. We are talking Geographically here. The addition of hatred into the equation here finishes the test. We, as UK fans, “hate” UL way more then anybody else. I can’t stand Bobby Knight, and I couldn’t stand IU when he was there. I can’t stand NC, but the reason I want to beat them more then anybody, even UL, right now is purely because I can’t stand the sight of cryin Roy!!!!!! I couldn’t stand Crum, and I don’t like Pitino much anymore. But I don’t have anywhere near the – and I do not like to use this term at all – hatred for him. But, I still despise UL. My beef with NC is more with the coach. UCLA has more Championships then we do, but there is almost no “rivalry” there at all. I think the hatred apexed with UL because we UK fans had to endure for so many years all the verbal abuse for not agreeing to play them for so long! That made blood boil!!!! Then, one has to consider the “satisfaction” factor when we beat these rival teams, along with the devastation when we lose to them. Rivals dont “ebb and flow” over the years, they maintain the intensity. When all factors are entered, and the math is done, (let’s not get into algebra here) UL is the winner hands down, I believe. At least for me. But, the most personal rival now, in my book, is not NC, but their coach. I also want to throw this in there to ponder. Williams at NC, never could win it all at Kansas, could he?!!!! He goes to NC, and wins two, much to my chagrin. I think I can see the future for UK here. Calipari will win, win big, and win it all here at UK, and win multiple times here. If he stays out of trouble. I’m praying.

Food for thought: The virgin birth has much more to do with the absense of a natural earthly father then the use of a virgin mother. Now, chew.....Because, it's called a "corrupt seed", not a "corrupt egg"!

by blubloodcatfan on Jul 23, 2009 10:01 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

The games between NC State and UNC are much bigger in-state than the UNC-Duke games...

because the fan bases are much larger, and most Duke grads live out of state up north anyway.

I doubt anyone would argue that that makes the UNC-State games bigger “rivalries” than the UNC-Duke games.

I agree that a big portion of the intensity has to do with geography. That’s why I doubt that most UK fans would find Louisville a bigger rival than UNC outside of the central/western Kentucky area. There are some exceptions, but that is where the Louisville hatred is centered. Louisville just isn’t the threat to our status as the nation’s best program the way UNC is.

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 24, 2009 3:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

AMEN, Obviously,you get it

by UKTimmy on Jul 24, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That was meant for Blubloodcatfan

by UKTimmy on Jul 24, 2009 4:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh yeah

Almost forgot. Take a poll. See who we, the fans pick?

by blubloodcatfan on Jul 23, 2009 10:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Oh yeah again,

The love interest isn’t going to worry anywhere near as much about the good-looking guy that his girlfriend see’s all the time – on T.V.!!!!!! He’s gonna consider his biggest rival the guy in the area that keeps looking at his honey. He’s a bigger threat cause she can get to know him personally. Now, I may have to tetract all of this becasue of this monster in my own bedroom called a “puter”! But, my wife is of no concern there. I moniter her time on line!!!! Naw, we just have the perfect marriage. Seriously.

by blubloodcatfan on Jul 23, 2009 10:10 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Great piece Ken.

I think Ken P. eloquently makes some excellent points, but that doesn’t change the fact that I despise U of L, and consider them UK’s biggest rival in both f-ball and b-ball. It’s simply a matter of my “raisin.’”

Although I detest losing to UNC and Duke nearly as much, they both come in a distant third place behind Louisville, and … the Gators.

I also think proximity places a large role in rivalries. After-all, when one has to see/work with/be neighbors with/socialize with Louisville fans on a daily basis, one has no choice but to beg UK to beat them on a regular basis.

But as Ken P. noted, statistically UNC, and Kansas should be considered UK’s biggest rivals, but statistics aren’t located anywhere near the heart.

by Ken Howlett on Jul 23, 2009 11:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Billy G's biggest rival is the breathalizer

If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.

by btcoop71 on Jul 24, 2009 9:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

preach

by BleedinUKBlue on Jul 24, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Enough.

I have constantly warned Forty about disrespect to former coaches. Please desist.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Jul 26, 2009 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My bad Tru

Small lapse in judgement.

If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.

by btcoop71 on Jul 26, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thanks very much.

If only everyone would be so responsive. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Jul 27, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Billy G evokes stong emotions.

It’s hard not to tell the truth as we see it about some people.

I really really really dont like that man.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Jul 27, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Telling the truth as we see it ..."

… does not require pejoratives or imputations of drunkenness, etc. I hope that we can rise above that sort of thing here.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Jul 28, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

uk unc

does anyone the date for the game this year?

by wyldcatsfan on Jul 24, 2009 5:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

where would we be on UNC's rival list?

not at the top of the list, that’s for sure. If for no other reason than that, I couldn’t consider them our top rival. Interesting and well-argued piece, Ken, but I totally and diametrically disagree : ) First of all, I think you’re underestimating Louisville’s quality as a basketball program. It pains me to be forced into the role of UL defender (I feel dirty, I think I need a shower now) and I’m not gonna trot our their statistics because anyone can google Louisville basketball, but come on—they’re clearly a top ten-type program. They’re not quite at the Kentucky/UNC/UCLA/Kansas ultra blue-blood level, but they’re right there on the next tier. Furthermore, to me (and others may not agree), “rivalry” is emotional, not logical. How cold-blooded to pick rivals by looking at a stat-sheet! Rivalry is about your personal history and your raising—heart, as opposed to head, as Ken Howlett pointed out.

by blue kentucky girl on Jul 24, 2009 8:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I absolutely agree with you!

As much as I personally loath unc, I just can’t pick a team that doesn’t consider us their biggest rival as our biggest. Without a doubt if you were to ask any tarheel fan what the biggest game on their schedule was (and I have) they would answer it’s the two they play against duke each each year.

While I’m sure they like to stick it to UK and would love to pass us in all time wins, they just do not have us on the same level as duke when it comes to a rivalry. Based on that, I just can’t put them on that plateau either.

In my humble opinion, the biggest rivaly would have to come from either in-state or within your own conference which leaves u of l, florida or tennesee.

Aurguments could be made for any of them….the ville is in state, all those years we refused to play them, crum vs. J.B. Hall and now they have traitor rick at the helm. tennesee is a border state, they certainly don’t like us one bit (though I suspect it’s more b/c we pretty much own them on the court) and pearl wears that damn ugly a** coat when we play…how could you not hate them. Then there’s florida, two recent nat’l championships, six(?) game win streak at one point, noah, donovan, and a ton of hype from espn.

Roll all that together and I would go first with l’ville then u of f with tennesse way on the outside looking in. Teams like unc, indiana, duke and kansas are fun to hate, great to beat but if they do not consider us their biggest rival, I just don’t think we should look at them in that light.

by wldcatsfreak on Jul 25, 2009 11:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, I just can't imagine considering my biggest rival to be a team that is not even a first-tier program.

It’s just embarrassing to claim a second tier school as your biggest rival if you are claiming to have the greatest basketball program ever.

Living in North Carolina as I do, I can tell you you might be surprised whom the Tarheel fans regard as their true rival. Now that UNC has won a couple national championships under Williams, and Duke has taken a nose-dive from the ranks of the elite, that rivalry has really cooled off. And why? Because a true rivalry is among equals, and UNC does not regard Duke as its equal at the moment (and rightly so).

All I have been hearing for the past five years from the Tarheel faithful is that they have to catch us in the overall wins. Now it has become, they have to beat us to 2,000 wins. They feel that is the only thing standing between them and an undisputed claim to having the greatest basketball program of all time. The problem is that they have to get that pesky Kentucky program out of the way. Yes, they still have to play Wake and Duke and Maryland, but it is UK they are gunning for, make no mistake about it.

And while they are gunning for us, so many UK fans are preoccupied with beating a second-tier program that has zero national records of note.

THAT, to me, is embarrassing.

I do understand all of the emotional issues people have with UT and Vandy, etc., but the most important thing to me is being able to claim we are the pre-eminent mens college basketball program. The way things stand with UNC right now (NIT loss versus NCAA Champ), I’m not sure we can do that.

BEAT CHAPEL HILL!

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 25, 2009 9:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My Thoughts Exactly; Be The Best, Beat The Best

--Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 12, 27 November 1787

by Wild Weasel on Jul 25, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure any UK fan is "preoccupied"

with any team to the point they are unaware of just how close unc is to us in the race to 2,000 wins. I’m just not convinced that the majority of tarheel fans feel UK is there biggest rival. I really believe they would put duke in that spot.

Let’s take michigan st. for example, if you ever have a chance ask a spartan who their biggest rival is betcha they say michigan. Next ask a wolverine fan who they feel is michigans biggest rival….w/o hesitation i guarantee they say the buckeyes. Now don’t ya think that makes mich st. look a little pathetic that u of m doesn’t put them in the same league as they do the buckeyes yet for the spartans, michigan is the biggest game on the schedule.

Anyways, it does make for a good debate. I do however think being “embarrassed” by someone elses opinion of our biggest rival is a little over the top but to each their own. :-)

by wldcatsfreak on Jul 25, 2009 10:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rival

Is the team you want to be the most = biggest rival?

Kind of like UK v. UT in football. Even though Tennessee has a rich football history, and are accustomed to great success year-in-year-out, I want to beat them just ast bad as I want UK to beat U of L. But, the UT fans I know would rate UK about 5th or so on their rival scale behind Alabama, Florida, Georgia, and possibly Vandy. They don’t take UK’s football program seriously, and who can blame them?

So while they pay us no mind, I circle that game on the schedule every year.

by Ken Howlett on Jul 26, 2009 1:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You must feel terrible about UK's position v. UCLA.

I think you need to lay down and take a nap.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 26, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Frankly, I can't consider a team a true rival if there would be no outcry from the fans and public if we did not play them.

If we were to replace UNC on our schedule with UCONN or Kansas, no one would say anything as we continued to play top tier teams. The explosion from the fans if the UK/UL series was discontinued would probably get the governor and general assembly involved.

by wklawdog on Jul 26, 2009 4:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It’s an embarrassment to even play us, I’m sure. When you play Louisville this season there should be 23,000 people in Rupp Arena wearing bags on their heads to hide their shame. Thanks in advance for even letting our unworthy team on your storied court. Really, your entire season should just be a perpetual round-robin against Kansas, UNC and UCLA.

And how could there possibly be any fans of a team that has “zero national records of note”? I must be a modern-day martyr to tolerate such non-greatness!

by don'tshootmei'macard on Jul 28, 2009 12:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Heh.

Well, I think the Cards are worthy, for what it’s worth. :-)

Obviously, UNC is a big deal right now because of the historical matchup in wins and their current winning streak, but no matter what others on this board think, the Cardinals are my #1 rivarly game every single year, and I don’t expect that to change.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Jul 28, 2009 11:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

If it's all about national rankings then why isn't UCLA's name brought up?

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 28, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Because the conversation is about teams with three or more national championships in the last thirty five years.

That of course excludes the Bruins, who managed ONE since Wooden. Kentucky has had three, and UNC four national championships since Wooden.

Of course, that conversation would also exclude the dirty birds on the Ohio, who have never managed three championships, period. Ever. Had one good decade, but never won a nat. champ. outside the ’80’s.

No charge for the history lesson.

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 29, 2009 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rivalries.

I think a lot of it actually has to do with where one currently lives.

For example, you feel that Louisville is our #1 rival and you live in, well, Louisville, and it’s interesting to note that Ken P. lives in the heart of ACC country, so it would make total sense that he would have the most animosity towards UNC.

I realize there are other factors that contribute to ones rivalry choices, but to me, a person’s geophraphic location and the fans you are immediately surrounded by play a big role in whom you currently consider to be your biggest rival and I, like some others here don’t really think there is a right or wrong answer to the "who is your biggest rival" question as it just depends on the person and what they are using as their criteria for making their personal decision. Do they live their lives by the numbers and look at the big picture and take into account teams on a national level (which btw, could mean that their #1 rivalry is always changing), or are they going strictly on emotions and feelings?

by BigSkyCat on Jul 28, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Give Indiana a chance

When they return that game will mean something. I grew up in Owensboro, the IU UK game meant a great deal to me and others. I even thought about trying to get our bridge shut down after they beat us one year. We built the bridge in the 40’s so the Hoosiers could swim in the shade anyway :) Old joke, sorry.

No matter where you're at, there you are

by cincyblue on Aug 10, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe the 'test' of a rival's position....

…should be indirectly proportional to the level of one’s fair assessment of that rival’s program. If my theory holds true, old Ken has clearly shown that UofL is his number one rivalry.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 26, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I apologize, as I just missed all those national championships U of L won that never made it into the history books.

Still haven’t found the record of those Louisville national championships post ‘86 (I’m told they’re with Randy Morris’ fax…), but I’ll take your word for it that your Cardinal program is still somehow relevant to the conversation.

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 29, 2009 2:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

So so true!

by UKTimmy on Jul 24, 2009 9:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

My poll.

Kentucky’s biggest rival(s). Top ten list.
#1: UL #6: Kansas
#2: IU #7: UCLA
#3: NC #8: Florida
#4: Duke #9: Arkansas
#5: Tenn. 10: Vandy
Coaches poll:
#1: Roy Williams #6: Rick Pitino
#2: Roy Williams #7: Rick Pitino
#3: Roy Williams #8: Rick Pitino
#4: Roy Williams #9: Bruce Pearl
#5: Roy Williams 10: Bruce Pearl
Dishonorable mention goes to Bobby Knight! My former #1. Who is #1 on my all-time team! Fast approaching dishonorable status; Thad Motta, Ken O’Brien, Mike Davis.

on the all-time team? Denny Crum, who else.

by blubloodcatfan on Jul 24, 2009 10:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

correction

Crum is supposed to be #2.

by blubloodcatfan on Jul 24, 2009 10:31 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Hatred

Not going to lie, as of late, I have developed an extreme hatred for Vandy. Watching the game last year when Ogilvy delivered a clear cheapshot after the whistle and after watching them fully embarrass our program two years ago, I have found myself wanting to win this particular series every season more than any other game. Losing to UofL certainly hurts, being beaten by UNC is tough, but to lose to Vandy is the worst in my eyes..

I see that this hasn’t been much of a rivalry, historically, but I’m curious to see if it becomes one. Lately it has been a very good series. I realize that my opinion has been biased by the simple truth that I HATE Vandy, but this is becoming an interesting series at the very least. I am prepared to call it a rivalry, although I can see if others of you UK faithful are not

by Stuck in Cincy on Jul 24, 2009 11:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

so true!

I too have an irrational hatred for Vandy that far exceeds their importance. I hate to lose to them more than probably any other team in the SEC save maybe Florida. For me, it’s a more important rivalry than Tennessee. I until recently lived in Nashville and was often annoyed by the rich-twit Vandyites who populate bars and such on the west side, so that might have something to do with it. I’m a middle class, public school girl—I just hate to lose to fancy-pants private colleges—they’re like a less-successful Duke to me. And it seems like they beat us way more than they should, which is uber-annoying. Stupid Vandy. I spent an embarrasing amount of money on some scalped tickets in horrible seats to a Vandy game at Memorial a few years back too—we LOST naturally, and the experience solidified my hatred for the program : ) Nothing is worse than spending lots of cash attending a game ON THE ROAD, wearing your blue and cheering loudly throughout the game surrounded by pissy home fans, and then losing, enduring taunts all the way back to the car as you sulk with your tail between your legs.

This rivalry stuff is so emotional—by logic I should not place Vandy above other SEC east foes, but this visceral aspect of sport is to me part of what makes it fun.

by blue kentucky girl on Jul 25, 2009 1:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Under Ken's logic,

UNC is not a legitimate rivalry because they have owned us. You can’t say L-ville isn’t a great rivalry because they aren’t our equal in one breath and then say in the next breath that UNC is the better rivalry when we are 10-21 against them. We clearly have been inferior to UNC since the 90’s. I don’t like the premise in the first place. When you look at great rivalries in sports, Cards/Cubs, Yankees/Redsox, UNC/Duke, Redskins/Cowboys, one team inevitably has a run of dominance and then it shifts back.

One common thread in the above rivalries is that they are within divisions or conferences, ensuring lots of meetings and relative proximity. Therefore I’d say Tennessee is every bit if not more of a good rivalry for UK than UNC, L-Ville etc. I do agree that the emotion reaches higher levels in all of these rivalries as the quality of the opponent increases. It’s definitely a factor among the others listed. Beating a great team is so much sweeter than stomping on your little brother, which is why Louisville will be out for blood this year.

by chrisgettlefinger on Jul 25, 2009 10:38 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I think you are forgetting that

UNC was horrid in the early 2000’s. Do we forget so soon that Tayshaun dropped 5 3’s in a row on them? Notice the rankings….

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KNmvyLHHEQo

by BleedinUKBlue on Jul 25, 2009 1:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point was that I can't consider my biggest rival to be somebody who is not in my league in terms of the overall program. The head-to-head matchups are only a single aspect of the strength of the program.

Go back and read the post again. UK has more wins, more national championships, more NCAA appearances, better attendance at home games, and a better record in its home facility. North Carolina has more Final Fours, more consecutive twenty-win seasons, more national players of the year, more alumni in the pros, more NCAA #1 seeds, more tournament victories, a better record of knocking off #1 ranked teams, and of course much greater success recently. Both teams are clearly “first tier.”

Louisville has none of that — nothing that either team has. UK is top tier, and UNC is top tier. Louisville is not. That is the point. The head-to-head matchup (showing that we have owned Louisville, but UNC has owned us) is just one circumstance that causes ME to want to beat the Tarheels a whole lot worse than I care about (second tier) Louisville. That was the point.

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 25, 2009 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

KP

I think you make you make a good case. I’ve just never thought about it so “in-depth.” But, making a logical argument (as you do) just doesn’t change feelings that fans have had since childhood.

You beget a great thread:)

by Ken Howlett on Jul 26, 2009 1:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

How do you explain the Yankees and Red Sox?

The Yanks have more than doubled the number of championships that the BoSox have, yet even during Boston’s championship drought, no one would argue that the two teams were each other’s biggest rival.

by wklawdog on Jul 26, 2009 4:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

No kidding

For years the Yanks were the hammer and the Sox were the nail:)

by Ken Howlett on Jul 26, 2009 9:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thou dost protest too much.

Nice try. Rivalry’s can’t be explained through logic and data. Just like faith can’t be rationalized or logically derived.

You can go ahead and claim that UNC is your big rival, but UNC doesn’t give a hoot-in-hell about UK. Ask any Tarheel and they will undoutedly claim that Duke and NCState are their rivals. So if you want to shout that UNC is your biggest rival…go ahead. You’ll just look like that little girl with the pigtails, stomping her feet and yelling ’…Pay attention to me!!!!"

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 26, 2009 9:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Kinda like you always posting on ASoB!! :-)

by wldcatsfreak on Jul 26, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Jul 27, 2009 9:52 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

See....it takes me 4 or 5 paragraphs to

say that to him most days……lol

Remember, we're having fun now!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jul 27, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is for sure....brevity and clear-thinking is NOT your friend.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 27, 2009 11:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Unfortunately for you

being right IS one of my friends….I’ll forgo the brevity for the sake of making sure you understand….

Remember, we're having fun now!!!

by ALLBLUCAT on Jul 27, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Snide Comments

You do realize all the snide comments just encourage us to ridicule you more. The only one’s reading your comments are those who don’t like and disagree with you.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Jul 27, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

I’d be interested on finding out how you know that. "…only those reading my comments are those who don’t like (me) or disagree with (me)’. Wow….your insight and fact finding are incredible. Too funny.

I am really crushed though because I do want to be liked. Really liked. Loved, in fact. Really I do.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 27, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dont think you realize hoze

That the dominant teams WILL start to take notice of us again. no matter how much you dislike UK, you can not deny we are going to do substantially better than last season. I’ve been on the Kansas blog recently, and though they might not have the nicest things to say about us all the time, they are still talking about us again. That is saying something, because last year, no one said anything about us, and we were actaully having competitive games with Louisville, instead of beating the tar out of you.
(For the record, if I ever mention Louisville, alI I get back is confusion, and I have to explain that Louisville is just some inner city school just down the road from Lex)

But when your team starts to win and turn heads, the bigger programs, UNC in this case, are going to start…what was the phrse you used?…“giving a hoot-in-hell” about UK. People didnt give a “hoot-in-hell” about Memphis a few years back, but now they have to. UK is steering in that direction.

Last thing. I can promise you, hoze, that come time for UK and UNC to play, UNC WILL give a hoot in hell. With all the talk about UK coming back, they’ll want to beat us and say “look they arn’t that good”. I can guarentee they will want the win as much as us.

by BleedinUKBlue on Jul 28, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Being better in this case is like bragging that you can leap over a curb.

Absolutely UK will be better. They may even make the NCAA tournament. Maybe. :-)

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 28, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

one of those tall curbs right?

8-9 inches at least? haha : )

by BleedinUKBlue on Jul 28, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

"...brevity and clear-thinking is not your friend." -- Hozeking

No, Hoze, they is not. Nor do they be.

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 29, 2009 2:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You defy logic

I know of no one who posts on a blog becuase they like being disliked. Here’s my fact finding for you. Notice the overabundance of comments railing against your posts. You dont find many who will defend or agree with you. There’s my evidence.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Jul 27, 2009 4:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I read Hoze's comments

And really enjoy reading everyone bash him back. He’s the Kyle Bush of ASoB. I think he thrives on getting us all fired up. It’s all good…

"You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't"

by iam4ukintn on Jul 27, 2009 5:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I suppose

I find it more annoyiong than anything else but I can see that there would be some entertainment value in it.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Jul 27, 2009 5:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I have yet to realize why all of you constantly debate him on the same points over and over.

It is like religion and politics, you are not going to change a person’s mind with debate (well reasoned or not).

by wklawdog on Jul 27, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Debate doesn't always have to be about changing minds, counselor.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 28, 2009 11:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm sorry, but you don't seem to "debate", to me

You seem to bait. If that’s what floats your boat… enjoy yourself. But why waste the effort, man?

No matter where you're at, there you are

by cincyblue on Aug 10, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's like a bull when it see's the color red. You just want to charge.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Jul 27, 2009 11:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Doesn't the matador win about 99.99% of the time with the bull dying in the end?

Just sayin’. :-)

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Jul 28, 2009 11:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

But you take a horn to the nuts so often! Most matadors have a little more on the ball than you (no pun intended).

Why do you come over here to comment when you know to a moral certainty that it is going to end up with you on the floor in a fetal position in a pool of your own blood and urine? That can’t feel good, even to a Cardinal fan.

On a personal note, I find that your ocassional moments of true wit, few though they be, help make your more characteristic ad hominem prattle more palatable. I only wish the former were more numerous, and the latter more like U of L’s national championship banners.

by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 29, 2009 2:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs