Repeat the ninth grade... but still gain early acceptance to Duke?
by chirop1 on Jul 21, 2009 4:10 PM EDT
52 comments
So much for the vaunted "higher admissions standards at Duke."
Riddle me this...
How can a young man that had to repeat the 9th grade gain acceptance after his junior year to one of the most academically demanding universities in the nation?
By being good at basketball and committing to a program that is desperate for guards.
When guard Elliot Williams abruptly left Duke last month to transfer to the University of Memphis and closer to home to deal with a family illness, the Blue Devils' staff and the father of Class of 2010 commitment Andre Dawkins started to discuss the possibility of an early arrival for the 6-4 guard, who is ranked as the No. 10 player in his class in the ESPNU 100.
The program, after all, was down to only two guards on its entire roster: Jon Scheyer and Nolan Smith. They were the only players shorter than 6-7 on the team.
So, according to a source with direct knowledge of the situation, Andre's father (also named Andre) told the Duke staff to have the university's academic adviser look at Dawkins' transcript to see if an early admission was possible.
According to the source, Dawkins already had the necessary 16 core classes, a qualifying test score and the appropriate corresponding GPA to be admitted to Duke. Dawkins has been in high school for four years, starting out at Deep Creek High (Va.) in ninth grade before transferring to Atlantic Shores Christian High (Va.), where he repeated the same grade. That was done for basketball reasons, not academics, according to the source.
There was one hurdle, though. A player must be a high school graduate in order to be admitted. So this summer, Dawkins is taking the last class he needs to graduate.
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/blog/index?entryID=4331592&name=katz_andy<!--QuoteEnd-->
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Desperation Time at Puke!
"You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't"
by iam4ukintn on Jul 21, 2009 4:35 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Desperate
They are quite desperate but it looks from the aritcle that the kid was held back to develop physically not becuase of academics.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 21, 2009 4:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It happens in Kentucky too. While teaching at a school in Eastern Kentucky, with a hope of getting to the state tournament, two young men repeated the ninth grade in an attempt to better their basketball skills.
They didn’t get to the state tournament but both are attorneys now.
Didn’t seem to stunt their learning ability.
The repeat of grades wasn’t that unusual at the time.
by TheParisGuy on Jul 21, 2009 5:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I generally see it happen with baseball
What you don’t usually see is for them to skip their “senior” year and end up at a prestigious academic institution like Duke.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jul 21, 2009 5:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
In middle TN
Kids are held back all the time, for athletic improvement. It stinks! My son is an average middle school basketball player, who would be above average, if I held him back a year. But, I wouldn’t dream of it. It’s just not my idea of fair….
"You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't"
by iam4ukintn on Jul 22, 2009 6:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It’s just not my idea of fair….
Exactly. Its not fair at all. I have never heard of this before though apparently it is common practice in some places. I think it is awful and borders on cheating.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 9:46 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cheating
It’s certainly not cheating if everyone can do it
Due to arbitrary guidelines schools set for entering a grade it can actually be beneficial.
My bday is in July and I was always one of the youngest kids in my class. I didnt turn the age most other kids were in that grade until after the school year was over. In fact many kids in the grade lower than mine were older than me. This happens to lots of children. It’s not nefarious to hold them back a year to let them develop mentally and physically and it’s certainly not cheating. I dont win because im 15 as a sophomore and your 16 and neither do you.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 23, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll just have to disagree on this one.
I think that holding a child back in school simply for athletic reasons is just plain wrong. I could care less if everyone can do it.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Qualifying statment "im not telling you how to parent your child "
Why would if be such a bad thing if you did hold him back?
It’s not your job to be “fair” to other kids it’s your job to help your child succeed (not necssarilly at basketball so much as life). They can be held back a year to if they need it. Just becaue it would move him from being average at a sport to being good doesnt mean he needs it though but if it benefits your son it’s not necssarrilly a bad thing. Keep in mind Im not telling you to do this just discussing the “fairness” of it.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 23, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fair
im also not saying we shouldnt be fair to all kids as parent just pointing out that my child’s welfare is more important to me than making sure everyone makes the basketball team.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 23, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lovely, davw.
I couldn’t agree more with all three of your posts here.
The most important thing I will ever do in my lifetime is properly prepare my children to go out into the world and be intelligent, happy, and productive members of society, and anything I can do within the rules in order to give them the best chance to excel and succeed in our society, I will damn well do and I will do it proudly.
To those who say that holding a child back is unfair, I say, Oh, Waaahhhh. If there isn’t a specific rule against something, how can you really and with any semblance of reason blame somebody for doing it? You can whine and cry all you want, but trying to play the "unfair card" when in this case parents (and btw, you have every opportunity to do it, too) are just trying to give their children a leg-up and the best possible chance to succeed, well, I think it’s ridiculous.
by BigSkyCat on Jul 23, 2009 10:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever
I think it is unfair and wrong. That is my opinion. I dont really think that means I am “whining and crying” about it.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Unfortunately unless you prepare the child for the
ostracism, and ridicule that follows from the other students and by the community at large, it can cause problems for the child. I had the reverse as a child, I graduated at 16….caused me numerous problems, which I side stepped by going into the military with my parents permission. I however, would not have wanted the “social stigma” of having been held back. I am not saying anyone is wrong for their choices here, just that the idea of doing it simply to make your High School sports team better is wrong….I have already been approached by the school ( the coach I should say) concerning holding back my daughter to let her “develop”…..she is a straight A student….5’8" 190lbs….she shoots 85% FT’s and 63% FG’s …..she already had a situation where she physically overpowered another girl in middle school while going after a rebound which resulted in the girl getting an arm fractured…..I would say she’s pretty well developed…. it is just taking it all too far…..and NO ONE loves the game and all of its goings on better than I do. I dont see it as a leg up…..I see it as Coaches trying everything they can to gain an advantage….nothing illegal…..just not what I want to see happen in HS sports. And believe me…..those coaches care a lot more about that W-L record than they do the athlete….at least they do here…
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jul 23, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"... the idea of doing it simply to make your High School sports team better is wrong"
I feel exactly the same way. Good post ABC.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(Oops - hit post to soon.)
If there are other issues involved in the decision to hold a child back – they are not emotionally mature enough to move ahead, academic issues, etc – I can see that and am totally fine with it. I just can not get behind doing it simply to get ahead in sports. No way.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with you KY Girl...
My son is at the top of his class academically, is well rounded and mature for his age. He has two sisters ten years older than him, and has grown up around teenagers. I didn’t mean to open a can of worms here, but when our 7th and 8th graders play teams completely made up of freshman, it doesn’t make for a fair contest. One extra year, at this age group, makes a lot of difference. Just my opinion…
"You are what you are and you ain't what you ain't"
by iam4ukintn on Jul 23, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It absolutely makes a lot of difference
especially at that age group.
I dont know, common practice or not, it just seems to me if ones child needs an extra year to get some sort of edge in athletics then maybe said child isnt really as good as their parents might like to think. Just sayin…. I mean, at that point the child is no longer really competing with other kids their own age. Little Jimmy is in 8th grade and is “really good” at basketball. Riiiight – he’s “really good” because he is a mentally and physically developed ninth grade high school freshman that has hung back to dominate the incoming 8th grade class.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 1:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Keep it up, Kygirl
Well said. Not only will the boy have an advantage over his incoming teammates but also over the other teams he plays against.
"SPORTS"--Not interested----"CATS"--Pull up a chair,I've got all night.
by kydamcat on Jul 23, 2009 11:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its not wrong
There isnt anything wrong about about it.
You may not like it and that’s fine but to say it’s wrong is incorrect. It’s not a right or wrong issue and you cant make it one. It just is what it is. It’s neither ethical nor unethical.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 23, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK - I dont like it.
It is wrong in my mind and will remain that way. (How about that? Can I do that? Please?)
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 3:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Youre entitled to your opinion Tink.....
stand in there….throw a punch or two….lol….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jul 23, 2009 4:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Opinion
I dont mean to disparage your opinion. You certainly enititled to be agasint holding kids back. I do take exception to the thought that it’s wrong or nefarious. I think that is clearly innacurate.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 23, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"Wrong"
I believe that you are using the word “wrong” like in school when you take a test, the answer is either right or wrong. “Wrong” in definition is actually much more subjective than that as it uses words like “morality” and “judgement” in its actual definition. People’s morality and judgement can differ immensely! Therefore, for you to tell me that it is “clearly innacurate” to believe this situation to be wrong, is in fact inaccurate in itself. :)
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 24, 2009 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok
that makes sense
How about “immoral”. I just dont think it’s an act that can be classified as immoral no matter how much you dislike it. Your attitude regarding the practice seems rather judgmental. I know for a fact in the right situation it can be beneficial for a kid. Im not advocating it for everyone.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 24, 2009 8:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I just dont think you can make that call for me.
On the same hand, you can not make something “moral” or “right” to someone that doesnt feel the same way about it no matter how much you do like it or accept it or think its ok. Its too subjective.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 24, 2009 9:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We'll just have to disagree on this one
Something is either immoral or it’s not. IMO morality is an absolute. Not liking a practive doesnt make it moral or immoral. It just means you dont like it. We’ll just have to disagree on this one.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 24, 2009 9:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"IMO morality is an absolute."
…and therein lies the difference. Agree to disagree – agreed.
Great discussion though! :)
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 24, 2009 9:51 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree....on the discussion that is
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 24, 2009 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
what you are saying is that holding a child back might potentially be unfair to the child, which is quite a bit different than saying that holding a child back was unfair as it pertains to competition with other children. My primary concern is for my child and her advancement, and if holding her back could in anyway damage her, well, then it really wouldn’t be a consideration for me, either.
And about this:
"just that the idea of doing it simply to make your High School sports team better is wrong"
It sounds as though you are drawing from personal experience with that statement and I can see your point. To specifically say that holding a child back for the pure benefit of a particular sports team, well, I certainly would not be in favor of that, either. As I have said before (ad nauseam, I know), since my priorities are my children, what is in their best interest is my only concern and if I were being pressured by others as it appears you might be, and it wasn’t in the best interest of my child, well, I would certainly have no problem telling them "what they could do" and "where they could go" with their suggestions.
And really, for me personally, "holding back" is purely a hypothetical as there appears to be relatively little to no chance of that happening at the moment. Even though I was a three sport athlete in high school (I really didn’t love it all that much, though, I was far too worried about all the sweat messing up my hair and what not ; )) — I must say that my daughters are displaying some of the same serious girlyness that I have (much to their father’s dismay) and since they clearly have no current interest in playing sports, holding them back due to sports really doesn’t appear to be an issue right now. : )
Btw, thanks for the detailed response and sharing a little more than "it’s just wrong". I appreciate it and it makes for much better and more civil conversation, not to mention detailed replies clear up a ton of confusion that can happen when blogging.
Good luck with your situation, and I guess what really matters is that we all do what we think is best for our children and whatever choices we make for them will surely be the right ones. Now, if you’ll excuse me, I’m off to the pool with my above mentioned children for a little swimming. ; )
by BigSkyCat on Jul 23, 2009 1:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Situation?
I have no personal situation of this kind. Just an opinion that I have.
Also, I was most certainly saying that holding a child back is unfair as it pertains to the competition with other children.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
(damn that post button!) lol!
I find it completely “unfair” to hold a child back to allow them to gain athletic advantages over children that are younger than them. If they cant play and compete where they are supposed to be playing, them’s the breaks. To me it just seems like, “Oh, honey, those kids are bigger and better at the sport than you? Well, let mommy just hold you back a year and then you can show this next class what you can do.” Just not right.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are confused.
I was replying to, ALLBLUCAT, and my reply is clearly under his post. I was not responding to you.
by BigSkyCat on Jul 23, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am confused.
Obviously not clearly to me since I responded. My apologies.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 23, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just depends on the kid
I dont think it’s unfair at all. You seem to forget that some kids develop at a different pace. School systems put arbitrary age based limits on grades. That doesnt make competition fair just becuase two 12 yr olds are going at it. One could be vastly more developed physically. Also while one more year of age may help a kid compete I hardly think that being one year older than someone else is going to allow him to dominate them. In my case I could have been held back a year and still not been a year older than kids a grade behind me. I think you are kind of making this a bigger deal than it really is.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 23, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My view on this
At a public school, everyone deserves the same opportunity to succede in sports and accademics. Kids are held back accademically to ensure that they have an equal opportunity to succede. In sports, they are held back (in most cases) to gain an advantage over other players. At a private school, the parents are footing the bill and probably have the right to make that decision.
"SPORTS"--Not interested----"CATS"--Pull up a chair,I've got all night.
by kydamcat on Jul 23, 2009 11:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got no problems with this
Of course, I still hate Duke anyway. The way things are going for the Blue Devils he’ll probably break his leg around November – and I’ll send hampster-face some black roses.
by hoboat33 on Jul 21, 2009 5:39 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have a niece doing this in a Kentucky public school right now
She is academically gifted but she is also a strong basketball player. She is repeating the 8th grade, despite her excellent grades. I think the school justifies it by saying she is socially not as mature as her peers, which in her case is actually true. She is very excited about this, sees it as a chance to be a bigger, stronger athlete going into high school, and not at all concerned about it academically as it seems to be socially acceptable with her crowd to do this for sports.
She will have all different teachers next year, even though the curriculum will be the same and she sees this as an opportunity to make all A’s again next year, while focusing a lot of her attention on basketball. Who’s to say?
by StillCatwoman on Jul 21, 2009 7:06 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This same thing
Has been happening for a long time in Ky high schools, but I did not think it was so prevalent today. Personally I don’t understand how a kid can repeat a grade when they passed it.
by kykat51 on Jul 22, 2009 12:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
They call it "Social Retention"....and its a CROCK
it is nothing but letting a kid develop more physically to participate in sports….local school system has had more than 10 do it here in the last 3 yrs. All but 2 did it for basketball…..boys and girls
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jul 22, 2009 9:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dad
My dad tried to get to hold me back for years in his effort to make me a better ball player. He’s a teacher and coach.
my mom wouldnt let him and I like music more then anyway.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 22, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This was about 15 yrs ago at this point so it's nothing new
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 22, 2009 9:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Usually the stereotype for kids
is to want to leave school as soon as possible. Now the cool thing if your an elite athlete is to repeat a year even if you passed it? Wow….this is the first I’ve heard of it. Both my girls could probably do it since they will technically be 17 when they walk, but I don’t know if I could convince them to do so. I’ve already got them convinced that college is WAY better than HS…..I couldn’t imagine trying to convince them to repeat a year…:)
Times, they are a changing…….
I want to die while asleep like my grandfather,
not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car.
by bluecrip on Jul 22, 2009 8:54 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Haven't yet read Gladwell's Outliers yet, but understand he talks about this...
…no not about Kentucky athletics programs but about the difference in many sports between the early calendar year birthday child and the late year child. 6-7 months doesn’t mean anything to adults but when putting children on sports teams it can be a big difference.
But since I have only talked about the book with someone who has read it, and haven’t yet read it myself, I shouldn’t elaborate. I don’t want to put words in Malcolm Gladwell’s mouth :)
by StillCatwoman on Jul 22, 2009 9:44 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It’s funny that you mention "Outliers".
I personally have not read the book, either, but my cousin was reading the book recently and since we are a fairly sports-crazed family, we started talking about it and she said pretty much the same thing that you mentioned here.
I believe hockey was specifically mentioned in the book and it talked quite a bit about how some Canadians basically plan, to the day when they want their children to be born so that the children will have a good “hockey birthday”.
On a personal note: When my husband and I decided to have children, I will admit that we most certainly planned our children so they would have fall birthdays (October and November). My husband jokingly said it was so that they would have good Little League birthdays (ha, ha), but in reality it was to ensure that they would be one of the older and possibly more mature children when it came to academics, sports, etc., in their class once they started school. Both of my in-laws are educators by profession and in my mother-in-laws experience (she was a Kindergarten teacher) she said you could totally tell which kids were the youngest in the class and which ones were the oldest, not only by their physical appearance, but more importantly by their mental readiness once they got to school.
I wouldn’t go so far as to say that I would hold my child back once they reached school age, but I certainly understand the reasoning behind it in that parents see it as a way to give their child the best possible start and the chance to succeed in comparison to their peers in a particular area, whether that be academically or in sports.
by BigSkyCat on Jul 22, 2009 11:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have read the book and
I would recomend it as a non-fiction read to anyone. The ideas that he sets forth will really challenge the way you view what makes one person succeed vs fail (hint, it is not always ability or effort). Frankly, if one were considering holding their child back a year, it should be done before first grade to enhance both their athletic and academic possibilities.
by wklawdog on Jul 22, 2009 9:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll agree with that
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jul 23, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Repeating grades purely for sports
I just can not agree with that.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 22, 2009 11:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Simpler Solution ...
is to delay beginning school by a year, i.e. a 7-year old first grader. Relieves the stigma — providing one still exists — of repeating grades while gaining the added maturity. I did it for my second son and he was much the beneficiary physically, emotionally, socially, and especially so in being ready for college. I would recommend it in most cases particularly males.
"The prosperity of commerce is now perceived and acknowledged by all enlightened statesmen to be the most useful as well as the most productive source of national wealth, and has accordingly become a primary object of its political cares."
--Alexander Hamilton, Federalist No. 12, 27 November 1787
by Wild Weasel on Jul 22, 2009 2:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
First you've heard of it??
“Usually the stereotype for kids is to want to leave school as soon as possible. Now the cool thing if your an elite athlete is to repeat a year even if you passed it? Wow….this is the first I’ve heard of it”……..
This has been going on since the 60s, probably even before that!
Pete Maravich wasn’t held back, but, went to prep school for a year before enrolling into LSU. Unheard of in that day and age. The extra year is a big help, whether for academics or athletics!
It is a parent’s choice……pure and simple. I personally have no problem with holding a child back in Junior High or starting school a year late…….the added maturity is a plus whether starting college or starting work.
by seattlekat on Jul 22, 2009 8:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah I never really paid much attention
to the subject growing up. I never played sports, didn’t climb the academic ladder early and didn’t care what age other kids in my grade were (unless a dude had a beard in eighth grade :> )
Like many kids I just wanted to get out of school as quick as possible and if someone suggested that I should stay back a year to “develop”, I would have laughed in their face. Just for giggles I asked my girls if they would like to repeat a grade they passed just so they could be the same age as their peers when they graduate and they looked at me like I was an Al-Qaida suspect.
Guess I’m not that knowledgeable on the subject but that’s why I visit sites like this, to broaden my horizons.
As for reasons for doing it, I say each to their own. I could care less since it doesn’t affect my kids in any way. As for other kids, as long as they are benefitted by it, I say do it. If you want to do it just to enhance a team’s chances in competition without regard for the child, then that’s when I would have a problem. That’s when I would find it to be a selfish act.
Nice to know that this is an OLD subject and not a surprise to others.
I want to die while asleep like my grandfather,
not screaming in terror like the passengers in his car.
by bluecrip on Jul 24, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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