UK Basketball: Every Rose has its Thorn
I know, I have been quiet lately.
With all the talk of SAT's, John Calipari's substandard standardized testing oversight, Derrick Rose and the mystery man, free pizza pies, Billy Clyde's lawsuit and UK's counter-action, along with the vilification of UK and UK fans, I've been trying to wrap my size three brain around what all this means.
The MEDIA'S initial reaction to the bogus SAT test of (presumably) Derrick Rose was that of condemnation of Calipari, and to a similar extent, UK for hiring Calipari. This, I will never understand. More on that later.
Then folks began to actually absorb (and think for more than five seconds about) the events that unfolded involving the questionable SAT score, and suddenly national media figures (Jay Bilas and Dick Vitale) surprisingly came to the aid of UK's beleaguered head coach.
All the while, ESPN.com's Pat Forde is writing that UK fans don't care if their coach cheats, as long as he wins.
A lot to take in for a simple blogger.
But, I will at least attempt to make sense, of all this nonsense. Beginning with ...
Billy Gillispie and his Money
I'm no legal scholar, but it seems to me that Gillispie, and UK Athletic Director Mitch Barnhart operated under the Memorandum of Understanding as if it were a contract. In fact, Gillispie's attorney claims that UK enforced the MOU when they forbid Gillispie from signing an endorsement deal with a company in Texas. If that can be proved, then UK better be prepared to pony-up some cabbage.
But more importantly than the legal claims of either side, is the fact that UK owes Gillispie the money: Am I to believe that UK President Lee Todd and Barnhart allowed Gillispie to coach for two years without benefit of a contract, regardless of the name of the document? No sale! Merely the fact that Gillispie was remitted a paycheck represents an execution of the contract.
Of course, all of the maneuvering we've witnessed over the last week or so could also be negotiating ploys, by both parties. Neither UK nor Gillispie wants an expensive, protracted legal battle. It's simply bad publicity for the school and the coach.
Pay him his money, or some reasonable amount, and be done with it! I'm betting Clyde would be delirious with say, four million or so.
Calipari and the SAT's
How a coach is supposed to monitor the testing of all his prospective players will always remain a mystery to me. And how the NCAA can blame anyone but themselves, is one for the Scooby Doo crew.
For media members, fans, whoever, to place blame at Cal's doorstep for this apparent infraction is akin to blaming Tubby Smith for Joe Bologna's transgressions. There is no connection.
There should not be any consequences for Memphis or Calipari, for the blame lies squarely with the athlete and ...
... the NCAA -- They're the ones who validate the prospective athlete's scores! The NCAA Clearinghouse told Memphis that (presumably) Derrick Rose was eligible. End of story.
I wonder if they have an ample supply of mirrors up in Indy?
Now, on to more important matters ...
Joe Bologna and Pat Forde
These two go together like a hand into an Isotoner.
Last week I was so incensed at Forde's article portraying UK fans as a win-at-all-cost group hillbillies, that I began writing a post refuting his claim. After finishing about three-fourths of the piece, I decided that it 'wasn't working.'
It 'wasn't working' because Forde is right, rather, it 'wasn't working' because it is difficult to disprove his theory: I have no hard data that suggests that UK fans don't desire their coach to cheat; there have been no studies completed, there are no reference books.
All I have is my own experience. And I didn't think that was enough.
Thank God!
Because, less than a week later imagine my surprise when I learned of Joe Bologna's illegal "charitable contributions" to UK athletes. Now, I'm not suggesting that Mr. Bologna's multiple mistakes improved UK's chances at winning on the court, or gave them a recruiting advantage. No, it's his mindset that matters to me:
"I know it's not within the rules, but I'm going to do it anyway."
The same mindset that has gotten UK into trouble in the past. The heavy-handshakes, the "jobs," Emery, Eric Manuel. Whether a coach, booster, or misguided business owner, there seems to exist within the Kentucky fan subculture an unscrupulous sect of rule-breakers that are hell bent on bringing us all down (not that the UK fan-base is any different than any other big time college fan-base), whether intentional or not.
"Managing" the sect is the key to happiness, and more importantly, to no violations. Rick Pitino clearly recognized that requirement, and thankfully, he acted. Separating the 'people most likely to corrupt,' from the players. Probably Pitino's best off-court move in his eight years at UK.
But what Forde fails to understand is that ...
It Ain't Everybody
Surely he must realize that not all Kentucky fans, or even a significant number of fans, wish our coach, or anyone related to the program, to cheat. Collectively, we have an overwhelming emotional investment in the program. The last thing we want is to see it razed, as it was in the early 50's, and again in the late '80's.
What Forde seemingly doesn't comprehend is that from the time that most of us were pre-adolescent we worshiped at the altar of UK basketball. We've rejoiced, and died with the team. We've endured heart-ache, and disappointment. We've been to the mountain top. We've ruled the world. And because of this common 'combat' experience, the team has been relegated to 'immediate family' status. And no one ever wants to see family get hurt.
Mention the word "Emery" and watch UK fan duck for cover. All 'Emery' brings to mind are bad, sad times. Times that no one wants to relive. Not any sane "no one," anyway.
Perhaps Pat should conduct a survey in Kentucky to convince himself that not all UK fans are neer-do-wells. The question -- What do you think of Eddie Sutton? A. He nearly destroyed the basketball program, I despise him. B. He nearly destroyed the basketball program, I love him. C. He's misunderstood.
Which answer wins that poll, Pat?
You see Pat, most UK fans like their 'Cats trouble-free: Free of scandal, free of fraud, free of probation, free of limited scholarships, and finally, free of the garbage spewed by some, in the general direction of Lexington whenever something untoward happens ... or not.
We want our team to win, but win with class and dignity. And winning with class and dignity demands the program remain clean.
Finally, please don't make the mistake of confusing the average UK fan, with those who hurt the program with their misdeeds. The average fan fills the rafters of Rupp, and the bowl that is Commonwealth. We fill the air-waves with complaints, and jubilation. We buy UK gear, and teach our kids the UK cheer. We drive to the highest peak in town to listen to Tom Leach and Mike Pratt, and before them Cawood and Claude Sullivan.
And yes Mr. Forde, the average UK fan wants to win championships, but you can't win championships if you're on probation.
Surely you recognize that every rose has its thorn.
Happy Birthday
I would like to wish a Happy Birthday to my sister Wendy, her husband Travis, and their daughter Mallory. Must be something in the air in October.
Thanks for reading, and Go 'Cats!
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138 comments
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Comments
Good Morning Ken
Good article! I wish the “media” cared what the average member of the BBN thought. We are no better or worse than any other fans! We want to win and do it right. Thank’s for the mention of Claude Sullivan. My Dad ran a Standard Oil Service when I started listening to the Cats. We had a lot of pictures and give aways from the UK broadcasts. Well here I go again writing about the past. Another Great Job!
Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !
by oldcat70 on Jun 8, 2009 4:49 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ken, one final note on the SAT mess. All citizens of this great land
need to understand what the SAT reallyis! On the surface, it is an assessment tool that colleges/universities use to “weed out” and “separate” prospective students wanting to enter college. Scholarships are granted based on these scores and decisions are made as to whether a student can opt out of a class or must take a remedial class. Howerver, despite the SAT’s claim to be a valid and reliable test of cognitive skills, it is really an economically viable product of a huge corporation that has sold a “bill of goods” to college presidents, the general public, high school guidance counselors and the NCAA.
The Educational Testing Service has a virtual monopoly on the testing industry and yet SAT scores have a tiny correlation in predicticting student success in college. Yet if for whatever reason, many of which can have nothing to do with cognitive ability, if a certain is not achieved, it is decided that the student is not “capable enough” to enter college or play basketball. Because of this situation, I understand where cheating might exist in order to improve a score, especially when your scores can actually keep you out of the largest national minor league basketball league, called the NCAA. IMO there needs to be an alternative to the NCAA for NBA bound talent. How’s that fro a radical thought!
by Blueobsessed on Jun 8, 2009 7:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
IGNORANCE IS BLISS
The SAT is a very good tool for sorting out whether an individual’s high school curriculum and grades are consistent with achievement levels at other schools from a national perspective. The application to sports figures is merely to make a set point where a kid has a reasonable chance of being successful in that college and to strongly encourage the kid not to neglect his high school curriculum for the 1:1000000 dream of the NBA. It is actually good for the millions to see young people excluded from college who failed to maintain their grades and test scores. They need to perform in the class room and not be exploited on the court. It is their future the schools are jealously protecting. Think of how badly a kid with a higher GPA and Higher test grades feels when he or she is not admitted to the same school that took the player that only needed an 800 board score to play and get that education.
Test scores are actually highly associated with identifying talent (when used in conjunction with their grades), and a kid’s likelihood of success at different levels in a particular college. They are used to identify scholarship eligible students, honors program candidate, some Math proficiency and some English proficiency (to opt out of a beginner class). They are by no means a bill of goods. Just need to be used appropriately and with an eye to their limits.
A kid with great test scores does not have to be successful when he gets into college. Nor does a kid with poor scores have to fail. However, the likelihood is that the kid with poor scores will not do as well as the kid with good scores unless he does something to bridge the achievement gap that his testing shows he has at the time he takes the test. It is the ability to quickly solve problems, read quickly, solve logic problems, be proficient at all levels of Math and understand Grammar and principles of writing that are the basic skills needed for success. The test merely sorts out who has them and who doesn’t.
I have taught numerous scholarship players and can attest to the fact that their achievement levels are frequently much lower in the class than on the field. Doesn’t make them dumb. Just makes them ignorant. Yet, in college, that ignorance must be eliminated in order for them to successful students with the types of GPA s that are needed for a strong start in the work world. Otherwise their Bliss will be on the employment sidelines.
by tbd4567 on Jun 9, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, thank God you cleared all of that up......
just out of curiosity, how angry are you that some of these kids make 100 times your salary a year?? What is it with the angry teacher bit? If you were a really good teacher you would recognize that different kids learn differently, and the SAT makes NO, ZERO, NONE,NADA allowances for that. That test has not significantly changed since its inception, and the ETS has been wrong more times than anyone would like to count when it comes to scores being accurate.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 9, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's just ridiculous
I’m sorry, but if one can’t make the minimum level on the ACT/SAT (which, after all, is even lower if the kid did well in school under a different environment), I find it hard to believe that it is all the fault of the test. Standardized tests serve their purpose. There clearly will be inacuraccies on the margin, but if a student is unable to hit the minimum score on his test, he will have a very difficult time succeeding academically in college, whatever his different learning style.* That’s not an opinion – that’s fact.
*Note: Not impossible; there will always be the exception.
The King is dead! Long live the King!
by NYCCats on Jun 9, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The note says it all...........................
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 9, 2009 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So for the one or two exceptions, we should throw out the whole system?
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
The King is dead! Long live the King!
by NYCCats on Jun 9, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No, you adjust the system to allow some other way for those kids
to get in…..call it a “hardship scholarship”, or whatever you like….limit the number that each school gets and count them against their formula for grad rates so a school cannot go off the deep end recruiting nothing but the kids that are great athletes but have trouble with academics…..try helping the kids instead of penalizing them for not having what the ETS says they should have.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 9, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
They do that already
That’s why the NCAA, a few years ago, created a sliding scale for minimum test score based on GPA (the higher the GPA, the lower the needed score). That was designed to account for those that “just don’t test well.”
But there has to be some minimum standard. In my opinion, bringing a kid into college who has no hope of succeeding is not helping him at all. Rather, you are just setting him up for failure. Better that he go another route (prep school, juco, Europe/NBDL is bball is his only avenue, etc.) for all concerned.
The King is dead! Long live the King!
by NYCCats on Jun 9, 2009 5:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
I think that the NCAA does as much as they can to make it as easy as possible for athletes to go to college. I think too much is put on blaming the testing, teachers, and situations. All kinds of “excuses” are made for kids that struggle academically, but I think that some responsibility has to go on the kids as well sometimes. They have to want to succeed – at least give it a little effort.
I think the NCAA does their part in setting the entrance requirements and its up to the students to get in there and do their part in qualifying.
It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jun 10, 2009 8:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
BG and SAT's
My opinion is why drag this thing out with BG. No,I didn’t like the guy and he was a terrible coach plus he is at some fault for not signing his contract (which spoke volumes) but the memorandum,from what I hear,is a form of a valid contract. Give him his money and let this rest. Why drag this out for all to see and hear?
I agree that a coach can’t in any way make sure all tests taken by 18 year old kids are legit. And I would imagine this sort of thing happens a lot and not just with athletes. And I don’t really care what the national media says or thinks about UK and the fans. Most are misinformed sharks looking for a story when they think they smell blood. Uk basketball is one of their favorite targets just like Alabama and Notre Dame football and the Yankees. I for one think they try to tear UK down because of how big Big Blue basketball is which as a Big Blue fan makes me feel pretty important.
by maysvilleblue on Jun 8, 2009 7:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
You know....I always thought that
college was supposed to be about teaching these kids something. What are we teaching them in this case?. You have a high school diploma, but you are NOT good enough to get into OUR school because this test says so. You are good enough to go to the NBA and make millions, but you are not good enough to enroll here, because the score on this test says you are not smart enough to be in a class with other students. You are good enough that young people (and old) all across the country will worship you for how you put a ball into a hoop, but you are not good enough to call yourself a student here at OUR University. Why dont we just put a mark on these kids and let everyone know that they arent good enough for us?….The caste system is good enough for folks over in India, why not here?
I’ll tell you why, because for the last 200+ years we have struggled to become a country where this type of thing is supposed to be being eliminated. We tell everyone they are equal, yet we have no problem with putting these kids in their place when it comes to their “scholastic abilities”.
It amazes me that these kids can learn intricate plays and offensive and defensive sets, but they are supposedly incapable of understanding the English language, according to the ETS?
Maybe this is more of an indictment of how the test works than what these kids ability may actually be. There is plenty of blame to go around here, NCAA, ETS, the Universities that allow this to go unchecked, even the high schools for not finding a way to get it through these kids heads that the system works against them and not for them, the parents for not recognizing what is going to happen if they dont get these kids ready for all of this in advance, the fans for continuing to support this system even though the kids do not get the full benefit that they should from it.
The system is a joke, and a few kids have tried ( as kids will do) to find a way around it all…..I am not surprised, matter of fact I could have predicted it, as any of us could. You tighten the noose enough, then someone is going to try and struggle to get out of it.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 8, 2009 8:03 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have to agree with most of your points
I’m not an expert on the SAT or the ACT, but I have heard and read for many years that the tests are biased.
As to your point about the players’ ability to learn plays, I have to agree.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 12:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
READ IGNORANCE IS BLISS ABOVE
I don’t know of anybody that struggled to eliminate the stuff you speak of (except the Chinese and Russians and look at the mess they made). Fact is everyone was not made the same or equal. We are all different. Only 20% of kids go to college at all. Less than 52% of those that go actually graduate in 5 years.
From your points, everyone applying should be given a million dollar NBA contract. Everyone wanting an MD degree should be handed one. Everyone wanting to be a lawyer should simply hang their shingle. There should be no measurement of your fitness for such work or your responsibility to those you serve. Just eliminate college all together. There would therefore be no rules to learn no laws to abide by, no physical laws to observe, no medicine or science to aid us in our lives. We can return to the dark ages and have a few bullies gouge us for all we can supply them. Then we won’t have to worry about the principles you say we have been trying to apply for 200 years.
I do sympathize with your “not good enough for a degree” comment. Obviously professional sports does have a great deal of academic quality for which athletes receive little or no credit. Maybe a PHD in basketball should be granted before eligibility for the NBA. Those not making the cut get their Masters in Basketball. Many of their athletic achievements are the result of intensive study in kinesiology, physics, and muscle development. Maybe getting advanced placement credit for early development of those skills should be investigated. If that is all they study, does it not still make the study valid?
by tbd4567 on Jun 9, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My point is that the NBA uses
the college ranks as their farm system. I dont care how many NBDL’s there are out there. But some of these same kids that can make 7-8 figures a year are not good enough for the NCAA to allow to attend college. If they were not qualified to attend college, then how did they obtain that high school diploma? Dont tell me that colleges dont have remedial coursework to get a kid up to speed, because they do.
From my points, should one READ them, you will get that the system that exists is rigged to keep underacheiving kids out, instead of helping them to obtain a degree that they can use if the pro sports thing manages to not come about. The kids get used by the NCAA, and the NCAA knows it. Unless being obtuse is your profession, you can see where all of this falls. Then again, based upon your wording of your response, you seem to like obtuse.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 9, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too Many College Students
I can make a good argument that the U.S. has considerably too many attempting (and actually doing so) to earn 4-year college degrees, but this article does it better.
"[T]he opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves, in their, own sphere of action, but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres, would make the Judiciary a despotic branch."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abigail Adams, 11 September 1804
by Wild Weasel on Jun 9, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
SAT Questions
I have been following all of the news regarding the SAT scores of Rose(?) and now those of Dozier. To say that the University of Memphis, or even Coach Calipari, should be held accountable for this does not make a great deal of sense to me. Don’t you take the SAT when you are still in high school?
It has been 10 years since I took the SAT, but I remember going to my high school on a Saturday morning and taking the exam. Granted, I was not a heavily recruited athelete, but wouldn’t the staff of the high school and/or the testing company still be in charge of administering the test? Wouldn’t they be the ones who should have caught any potential problems with Rose or Dozier’s exams? How would UofM or Coach Cal be aware of any issues by the time the student or the SAT scores reached them? Am I missing something here?
by melman333 on Jun 8, 2009 8:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I have yet to understand . . .
the people on this blog that say the MOU was a contract and UK should give BCG “his” money. I don’t agree that the MOU is a contract, but for argument’s sake let’s assume that it is. That still doesn’t mean BCG is entitled to “his” money. That money was to have been paid if he had not been fired for cause, and from all appearances, the university will be arguing that it had cause. Finally, Ken, it is quite doubtful that BCG will be happy with 4 million since he turned down 3 million and attorney fees will eat up 30 to 40 percent of whatever he gets above that (assuming he has a standard attorney fee contract). BCG is going for all 6 million and with his actions/performance issues/questions, there is no way he is entitled to all of that, IMHO.
by wklawdog on Jun 8, 2009 9:27 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actions/Performance Issues/Questions
Where in that do you think the university had “cause” in the legal sense?
On court performance has never been and will never be “cause” for firing a coach. Even though its the primary reason to let one go.
He was a poor ambassador for the school in public. Okay… so are half the asshole professors on campus. (But they have the benefit of tenure… lets not get started on that.) That’s not cause.
The only room to debate cause is with some of the allegations regarding treatment of players (and is making a player sit in a bathroom during halftime really an actionable offense?) or possible insubordination towards Barnhart or Todd.
I didn’t attend law school like you did, but even the rudimentary understanding I got on contract law from my high school business law class tells me that a contract does not have to be in writing to be enforceable. I don’t see how it can be construed as anything other than a binding contract. Even if all they had was a handshake, it would be a verbal contract that should be honored.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jun 8, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Granted, I'm not a lawyer either
but I’m curious, chirop, why you think job performance (winning enough games, representing the university with class, etc) couldn’t be “cause” for a firing in the legal sense?
by blue kentucky girl on Jun 8, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"For Cause"
Is generally a legal term. I can’t comment specifically on what it entails for a basketball coach, but I can tell you that for my office you cannot fire someone for things like too many mistakes while handling insurance claims and call it “for cause.” Performance is not a valid reason to fire someone in the eyes of the state… which is why they still can collect unemployment benefits. In my situation, I have to basically prove that they are commiting illegal acts of some sort to avoid paying unemployment.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jun 8, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
To an extent, you are correct.
A contract does not have to be in writing to be enforceable. However, the MOU, which everybody else seems to want to admit is a contract, had a clause that said that he would receive the buyout if he were terminated without cause. If UK loses their argument that the MOU was not a contract, then they are going to start presenting evidence that BCG was terminated for cause, obviating the need for the school to pay him any money whatsoever. I doubt poor performance (not winning enough) will qualify, hence you will get to issues that have been rumored that only those inside the athletic department have knowledge of (insubordination towards his bosses, misstreatment of staff and/or student athletes. If these are proven, the school will probably be able to reach the “for cause” threshold.
by wklawdog on Jun 8, 2009 12:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This will NEVER get to court, in my opinion.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 12:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
MOU WAS A CONTRACT. IT WAS NOT LONG TERM.
The MOU was on its face not a long term deal. It stated that a long term deal was to be executed which called for certain terms of termination to be in writing. Absent the long term deal being in place, the MOU was an employment agreement “at will” with a salary term that was identifiable and measurable. If you do not have a long term agreement in place there is no buy out to pay because there is no right to payment on a set number of years. Just like any equation, if a math fact is left out you can’t calculate the equation. You have the plan for 7 years with termination clause. You have the amount per year. You don’t have the termination clause even after 2 years of negotiation. You do not have the binding 7 year agreement.
by tbd4567 on Jun 9, 2009 1:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
tbd4567 makes a couple of excellent points
First of all, here’s a link to the MOU.
The pertinent sections — “The Memorandum of Understanding, which presents the material terms of our offer, will be expanded and incorporated into an employment contract with the University of Kentucky for execution at the earliest possible date. The employment contract will be for a period of 7 years with an option for a 2-year extension after a 24 month review at the Universtiy’s discretion.”
“Among other terms, your employment contract will include the following:”
“You shall be prohibited from receiving any benefits or compensation other than as described above from any other source without prior written agreement.”
“A termination for cause provision mutually agreed upon by the parties.”
“A termination without cause by the University provision that will require payment of $1,500,000 per year for the remainder of the term of the contract, provided the payment for termination without cause shall not exceed 48 months.”
Make of that what you will.
tbd’s point is that there was never a contract of any type (signed) for a 7 year term, although, clearly the intent of the University was to have G sign a 7 year deal.
The wording of the document certainly muddies the waters a bit, but I’ll stick with my advice to UK — Offer the man 4 million and make this all go away.
Some enterprising attorney could probably make a decent argument based on the inclusion of the phrase — " … provided the payment for termination without cause shall not exceed 48 months." — because that clearly states a set number of years that the buyout shall not exceed.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 9, 2009 4:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no knowledge of a $3 million offer by UK to G
In fact, I don’t believe UK has made any offer.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 11:17 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Larry Vaught reported back in late May
that both sides were close to a deal for 3 million and UK buying his house.
by wklawdog on Jun 8, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Daniel -- Surprisingly short comment.
Thanks, but you can disagree.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 12:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Class and dignity
That’s all I want too
by daniel81 on Jun 8, 2009 4:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I'll say this Ken...
…To you and Pat Forde: As a true blue fan for as long as I can remember, I would rather go to the NIT with a roster full of Kentucky boys every year then cheat for 1 second….
If you have to cheat to win, then you are not truly winning at all…
The Eddie Sutton years made me question my true blue loyalty, but thankfully, it was short lived. Tubby may have lost his passion at the end of his UK tenure, but the man NEVER resorted to cheating, and for that, I will always respect Tubby Smith the man…
The fact that John Calipari has come to Kentucky to coach basketball is scaring the hell out of many of our haters, so they will try to cause distraction, bumps in the roads or even conjecture, just to get people thinking… And when UK does win big, (and they will), the Pat Fordes of the world will be right there to plant a seed in everyone’s mind, “hummm, well, it is Calipari, so we know they bent the rules somehow, right..? wink-wink”…
But the beauty of it all is, It doesn’t matter..!!! it really doesn’t… Unless Coach and/or School done something illegal, let them look under every stone… They’ll find nothing…
And if we do resort to cheating, then dammit, I hope we do get caught… I for one would not want to win that way…
Well, I have digressed… sorry lol
GO BIG BLUE..!
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Jun 8, 2009 10:20 AM EDT reply actions 2 recs
Oh, do I totally agree...
cheating is never winning, ever. :-)
Blue, there is no other color to Bleed !!!
by a2d2 on Jun 8, 2009 5:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Cheating and lying...
Have always been two of my most despised traits of an individual. I tried my best to instill that in my children. I always told them that you may fudge to me, but eventually I will find out and you will suffer the consequences as long as you are in my home. I may have missed a few but I caught them many times. Kids will try anything and so will adults if they think they can get away with it. Just not my cup of tea.
by kykat51 on Jun 8, 2009 8:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
vinceuk1, I read this again, today....
And that comment deserves a rec’d. Way to go….I love it..
:-)
Blue, there is no other color to Bleed !!!
by a2d2 on Jun 9, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanx Blue...
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Jun 10, 2009 6:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand Pat Forde.
To say Kentucky fans would condone cheating to win, would be like saying co-authors would condone extramarital affairs to keep their cash cow alive.
by Bluebarn on Jun 8, 2009 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Jon and Kate plus 8
If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.
by btcoop71 on Jun 8, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just saying
If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.
by btcoop71 on Jun 8, 2009 11:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
good one....
sad but true imo
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 11:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perfect ..
analogy coop…just saying works too…
Great post Ken. :-)
Blue, there is no other color to Bleed !!!
by a2d2 on Jun 8, 2009 7:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My take
Ken, good piece. One thing I will say though about the BCG situation. I do not feel that BCG would have been fired without just cause. I don’t think they fired him to appease the fanbase, if they had then well he deserves the full five or so million he is supposed to get. I just don’t think that is the case. I will not claim to know why they fired him or speculate or go the rumor mill route. I just don’t think it makes good business sense to do that. The legal fees and the bad press for UK isn’t worth it. Many coaches are fired for “bad fits” or because its just time aka Phil Fulmer down here. I felt as a UT football fan that he got robbed. But still he walked away with his contract money. He was justly fired. But still got paid. Todd and Barnhardt would be stupid to get rid of him and not pay him his due money just to appease the fanbase. BCG still deserved time to build this program BUT, something had to have happened to change that and that they weren’t willing ot give him his due money. All this will come out in court.
On the cheating. Pat Forde has some points. Do you think two years ago we would have been willing to hire Cal? No, we weren’t and wouldn’t. We are desperate. Cal keeps hs hands cleans enough not to get wacked but his programs have gotten whacked or about to get whacked. Two years ago we wouldn’t have accepted this. We are more lax because of what we have been through. Would we have accepted Sampson………NO! Sampson is a proven cheater. Cal, doesn’t do the dirty work but he doesn’t care to oversee enough to keep his program in check. That is dangerous. Yes, its on Rose. But Cal better realize that he is responsible for the upkeep of this program and make sure cheaters don’t come in. I don’t care if the NCAA passes the kid or not…..if you have a star recruit coming in taking SAT’s or ACT’s then you better make sure that he is taking it himself. There are ways to do that. That is just protecting the program. Cal’s lack of care of handling Rose will cost Memphis as it did UMASS. Kentuckians don’t see that and that is the need…….the desperate need………of success that is blinding to some. I have full faith in Sandy Bell. That is why I am not worried but Forde has a point. He truly does.
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Jun 8, 2009 11:15 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
ok
that was supposed to say WASN"T justly fired
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Jun 8, 2009 11:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think UK will use the fact that he didn't sign a contract as cause
among other things, just my opinion.
If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.
by btcoop71 on Jun 8, 2009 11:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not
towards you but that would be childish. They know it wouldn’t hold up
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Jun 8, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Oh I agree
I think they are on the hook for the $6 million if it goes to trial. But, Billy G won’t get the other $$ he is asking for.
That being said, I think it is in both parties interests to settle out of court.
If peeing your pants is cool, consider me Miles Davis.
by btcoop71 on Jun 8, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would have been ecstatic with a Cal hire two years ago, as would have many, many others.
Cal “doesn’t care enough to keep his program in check” — Could you please cite an example?
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 11:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Many
many other stated infatically that they didn’t want Cal for the same reasons I listed above. Those same fans changed their mine and hey ken, I am one of them. So I am not saying anything bad here.
As far as not keeping programs in check…….Camby/Mass…….Rose/Memphis.. He was the leader of these programs and he should have better control of what is going on. Is it directly his fault……no, but it happened under his watch so he is partly responsible. It is un nerving to me to have a coach that has his program smacked once and mostly likely twice. But again…I trust Sandy bell.
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Jun 8, 2009 11:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
let
me also say that I know that we don’t want cheaters…….but do we mind our coach being associated with people who do cheat………that is the question at hand.
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Jun 8, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I don't understand ...
is why some people didn’t want him two years ago.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 years ago
i will not argue that it would not have made sense – clearly, i remember some of my local friends worrying about Cal leaving.
but looking through my “blue” colored glasses, i did not have the feeling that Cal was a UK kind of guy – sorry forty, no facts, just 7 years (at the time) of watching Cal up close and personal
to begin with i did not (and still do not) believe Cal to be a strong X’s and O’s coach. to win in the SEC night in and night out, you have to be good. Two data points (admitedly not hard facts) are that Cal has poor free throw shooting teams and never made in game adjustments. his attempt to have players visualize making 10 in a row before going to bed seemed hokey at best….
next, the off court turmoil of the UofM teams made UK’s team turmoil look like choir boys – again, in viewing it all up close. i know i was viewing team turmoil from 400+ miles away, but at least there were not two cases of females getting abused
comparing the kids that tubby was recruiting to cal’s recruits was also not favorable. i know trying to define morals/character/values is difficult (as ABC has aptly pointed out on previous boards) but the press on Cal’s recruits was not always as good as on Tubby’s.
But the biggest reason was the novelty of the DDMO. Cal did not have it in place from day one. it was still seen as a gimmic – like a box and one and a triangly and 2 are on defense. as more of a basketball purist (or arrogant UK fan?) i saw the DDMO as more of a trash offense – entertaining yes, but capable of going deep in the tournament? i just did not know….
that being said, over the last two years, Cal has made more in game adjustments, the FT have gotten slightly better, the gamble on some marginal kids paid off (not just on the court but in real life) and he proved you can go deep in the tournament with the DDMO.
so i was not as opposed to Cal this time as 2 years ago…Sandy Bell still needs to be on her toes, but i am drinking the koolaid and on the bandwagon…..
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 12:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thanks memphis.....
because sometimes, you really cause me to worry…but I know you don’t intend on that.
It is good koolaid, I think. :-)
Blue, there is no other color to Bleed !!!
by a2d2 on Jun 9, 2009 11:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
a little worry is good
do not intend on causing fear, but just to try to counterbalance the over exuberance….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 9, 2009 12:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Uninformed
I think most people are uninformed about him which is why he didnt garner as much attention two years ago.
Two years ago I would have thought the same things about him today that his critics do but I didnt really know squat about him or take the time to take a closer look at the issues surrounding him.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jun 8, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would you have had him do in the Camby/Rose case to prevent ...
… what happened, from happening?
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 11:29 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Got to get ready for class
but will get back tonight and explain. Understand this though, I love Cal. He will be a great fit our UK I believe and I think the right decision was made.
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Jun 8, 2009 11:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
hey tenken....
funny how those of us that have watched cal up close at memphis are nervous.
maybe we have fallen “prey” to the media talk – or maybe we have reason.
i agree with your comment above about 2 years ago. i did not want Cal then at UK however after 2 years of BCG, i too find myself wanting him now (and recall, i was in the camp of believing BCG needed more time).
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 11:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
see my comment above for more on my opinion 2 years ago...
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calipari Is An Elite (Top 5) Coach
UK needed an elite coach.
Gillipsie was a good (Top 50) coach. UK needed better.
Calipari, Calhoun, Roy Williams, Pitino, Self (et al) push the envelope to become and stay elite.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jun 8, 2009 11:57 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
"Push the envelope" -- well said Forty.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 12:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't understand the "pushing the envelope" or "gray area" statements.
An action is either legal or illegal. If it is not illegal, there is no gray area, you are legal. If Coach broke no rules, then he is not “pushing the envelope”, he is doing things the way that he is allowed to do them/supposed to do them. The BBN should not use these terms as they are the terms used by those who can’t prove anything wrong but want to make coach and UK look bad. They have no proof, so they say, “He operates in the gray areas of recruiting” or they will report that, “He pushes the envelope of what is legal”. No, if he doesn’t break the rules then he has done nothing wrong.
by wklawdog on Jun 8, 2009 12:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think its fair to say that his association with WWW is "pushing the envelope"
Not illegal, but close.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 12:17 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If it is not illegal, then it is completely legal.
Driving 55 is close to speeding, it is not, but it is close. Therefore, you are legal. Same thing.
by wklawdog on Jun 8, 2009 12:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking of a similar analogy
Say the NCAA rulebook is a speed limit, oh, 70 mph. Cal and some others are driving 69, close but not illegal. In my book that’s “pushing the envelope.”
And I’m fine with him pushing the envelope, as long as he stays legal.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think the analogy is more like going 80 mph in a 55 and keeping an eye out for the cops.
You monitor your radar-dectector on, or when caught, jump into the backseat of the car as the police pull you over.
‘Honest, officer, we may have been speeding but I wasn’t aware or even behind the wheel’.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Jun 8, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
diagree hoze...
i do not believe Cal is technically breaking any laws with one eye on the look out for the NCAA.
however, the paying of personal trainers (see my comment below) is more of a “gray” area – at least to me
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 12:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, maybe not.
Maybe he’s in the backseat of the car, purposefully taking a nap. :-)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Jun 8, 2009 1:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
well done......:)
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the old buffer argument?
i was late for a meeting but i did not know my driver was going to speed to get me there on time??
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 1:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Governor Corzine, for example.
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/13/nyregion/13corzine.html?_r=1
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Jun 8, 2009 2:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about this one....
You have a job that requires travel and you really need a blackberry to get your email – however, company does not reimburse your expense. If you add an extra taxi in your travel expense to pay for it – is that gray area?
How about if you take pens and paper home from work for personal use? is that gray area.
Life if full of gray areas—-as much as i believe in absolutes, i have to recognize that there are gray areas…even in college bball
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 1:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope. That is fraud and theft. Pretty simple.
by wklawdog on Jun 8, 2009 1:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough...
what about the gray area below – hiring of personal trainers?
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
See my comments below ...
… about what gray areas are. Gray areas are legal acts that are ethically questionable.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jun 8, 2009 4:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think ...
… what people are trying to classify as “shady” or “gray area” has more to do with ethics than actual black and white legality. There is virtually no doubt at all, from a compliance standpoint, Calipari is as clean as any coach in America, and cleaner than many. That’s because he has never even once been accused of wrongdoing or being in charge of wrongdoers by the people in charge of enforcing the rules.
Now, in an absolute sense, he may well be guilty of violations that just haven’t surfaced or can’t be pinned on him. I am sure that is true of most of the country’s basketball coaches, just like I am sure a vast number of Americans currently walking around free have at some point in their lives violated laws that could have resulted in them having criminal records, but they were never caught or convicted. In the eyes of the law, those people are clean.
Where Calipari gets his rep is by the fact that he does things that are in strict compliance with the rules, but that many people find ethically questionable, like hiring Milt Wagner in a package deal with his son. That looks like he essentially paid off his dad with employment to get the one-and-done DeJuan Wagner to come to Memphis. There are circumstances to mitigate that which happened afterward, but even that does not remove the appearance of a quid pro quo.
Billy Gillispie paid Daniel Orton’s father to talk to kids at his camps about the recruiting process, in my mind noting more than a $1500-2000 per appearance giveaway. Was it done to raise Kentucky’s standing in the eyes of the young recruit? Unquestionably. Is it perfectly within the NCAA rules? Absolutely. Does it look like a quid pro quo? Sure it does. Do many of the top coaches in America do similar things? Every year.
At the end of the day, what makes coaches appear shady are these little legal but ethically questionable deals. It makes people suspect that if they are willing to look “shady” doing them, perhaps they really are shady. Calipari is famous for doing these sorts of things more than most coaches do, and that’s where the “shady” reputation comes from.
So when you are talking gray areas, what you really mean are legal acts that appear to violate the spirit of the rule.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jun 8, 2009 3:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen - you are absolutely correct.
i have not and do not hold out that Cal has done anything illegal – that is clearly a black and white issue.
my point is that simply in pushing the envelop by doing somethings, it raises some questions. to say that the questions do not exist because they have not violated any letter of the law is ignoring what is taking place.
you summed up the discussion perfectly in my opinion….sorry if my discussion of gray areas implied any illegality or breaking of rules.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 4:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Maybe we should really question the NCAA for letting practices like paying speakers continue?
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jun 8, 2009 5:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
how about this for gray area?
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 12:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
sorry - gray area
Cal “hires” Tyreke Evans’ personal trainer at $4k per month to stretch out Tyreke prior to all ball games…Tyreke Evans was this year’s Rose at UofM
is it illegal? no. Is Cal the only one that does it? no. Does it violate the spirit of the no pay rule? you tell me…….just saying
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 12:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elite Coach?
Will give him top 15 maybe top 10, but not top 5 (i would put coach K, Tubby, and Billy D ahead of Cal right now).
3 of the others you have quoted have won NC’s and built their W-L records in BCS conferences.
i believe Cal at UK will graduate to Elite status – i believe he does too and that is why he took the job…
will agree he was a better hire than BCG
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Calipari Is CLEARLY Top 5 Coach
His 76% career W-L record in among the Top 5 active coaches per NCAA.
Every list I’ve seen puts him Top 5 or better.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jun 8, 2009 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree...
he is a top notch coach, but without a NC and with a WL record built in non BCS conferences, i cannot say it is CLEAR that he is top 5.
I will agree it is debatable and i would understand why he might be listed by some as a top 5 coach.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and to debate it....
which SEVEN of the following would you remove from this list to put Cal in as a top 5?
Roy Williams
Coach K
Calhoun
Pitino
Izzo
Tubby Smith
Billy Donovan
Self
Barnes
Jim Boeheim
Ben Howland
To me the 3 that are CLEARLY in the top 5 are: Williams, Coach K,and Izzo. I would give spot 4 to Pitino……
To say that Cal deserves spot number 5 over the other 7 is a good debate…i would rather argue for one of the field – at this point…hopefully in 2 to 3 years, it will be clear that Cal is in the top 5.
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think Roy Williams is a top-5 coach, neither is Donovan or Barnes.
At least in my opinion.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ok by me....
that means you only have to eliminate 4 more from my list to move Cal into elite status :)
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 4:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not sure I consider Cal a top-5 coach ... yet.
Let’s see what he does at UK.
Right now I’d go with — Howland, Izzo, K, Calhoun, and maybe Self.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Please...you have to give Old Roy is props.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Jun 8, 2009 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah ...
… I definitely agree. Roy is top 5 in my book, even though I would rather him be bottom five. :-)
He has won two national championships in the last (I think it is) four years. If that doesn’t get you in the top 5 currently active coaches, nothing does. Not only that, his body of work at UNC and Kansas when he didn’t win the national championship has been nothing but impressive.
Now, Donovan is another matter. His body of work is not nearly as worthy, even with the same number of national championships, so there is certainly room for debate on that one.
Calipari has to be close to anyone’s top five, but he could lie just outside.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jun 8, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Roy is a GREAT recruiter, and he's done a nice job with ...
… the secondary break, which he’s perfected, but I’ve seen too many choke jobs in the NCAA tourney in his career to consider him a master strategist.
I can think of 20 coaches who I would rather have coaching for me in a must win game.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 4:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I think he has demonstrated the ability to call a well placed time out. :-)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Jun 8, 2009 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thats all just a part
of the game Hoze…..just ask Michigan about knowing when to call a timeout….lol….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 8, 2009 5:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
do i detect a jab at Cal?
say for the game vs KU? :)
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everyone is on the izzo kick right now
But I still don’t think top five. I think within five years ole travis is in this conversation. Until then, double sigh, traitor rick, cal, Roy, Calhoun and howland. I say cal second cos he plays a style kids like, and isn’t that really half of coaching? Coach k doesn’t make it for the reasons ken mentioned for Roy, and I felt the same way he did about Roy until last year.
by daniel81 on Jun 8, 2009 6:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Travis within 5 years?
I disagree. In his last two gigs, he’s 85-47 for a 64.4% winning percentage. That’s good, especially considering his first season at UMASS was a 13-15 outing, and he certinaly did well (not great) in his first season at OKST, but in those four years he made 1 NCAA tournament (OKST, bounced 2nd round) and 2 NITs (at UMASS). I think Ford might eventually get into the top 10 or something, but not in five years, and I’m just not sure he can reach that level at OKST. Get him into the Big East, ACC, or SEC, and maybe, but still not in 5 years.
Just my opinion.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.
by blbskue on Jun 9, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll throw a little gasoline on the fire by saying
Any name on that list that holds an NCAA championship (which I believe is all), does Barnes? deserves mention in the top 5 copaches list. Unfortunately that list has to contain all multiple winners first ( it’s too dang hard to do boys and girls). But until Cal gets his, he will always be thought of outside that circle to most. Like the guys or not, if you win the NCAA more than once, you have to have something very special. Look how close Pitino came with us…..you cannot exclude anyone from that list who has 2 or more, sorry.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 8, 2009 5:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Barnes does not
although i agree with the 2 championship thought, that would put billy d ahead of pitino.
maybe if you won 2 with different teams? but as you say, winning 2 is tough and billy d might argue winning 2 with the same group (essentially) is harder than winning with two different groups….
in any event, not sure how you can CLEARLY put a coach that has not won a single NC in over versus a coach that has won at least 1
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its a valid question
Its why there’s always the title of “Best coach to never win a title.”
It used to be Pitino… then it was Boeheim… then it was Williams… etc.
I think a fair discussion can be made to argue against coaches with one title. Does anyone think that Steve Fisher or Jim Harrick or Gary Williams are automatically better than Coach Cal just because they have a title? I don’t.
Winning two is definitely an accomplishment. Coach K, Williams, Calhoun, and Donovan are the only ones on that list who have done it. However, despite winning two titles this decade, both Donovan and Calhoun have spent time in the NIT with teams that were entirely their own.
I’d still put Lute Olsen pre-breakdown over Donovan despite the fact that Donovan has two and Olsen only had one. (Heck Olsen’s title came on a far inferior team to many of his others.)
So I don’t think ranking coaches is simply a matter of who has a title and who doesn’t. There’s too much that goes into actually putting together six wins in March that doesn’t have a thing to do with coaching.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jun 8, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What a sorry position to take.
How can one even be a college sports fan with that type of cynical approach?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Jun 8, 2009 12:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'm trying to figure out ...
… who this comment was directed at.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jun 8, 2009 6:09 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry....I blew the reply.
Calipari, Calhoun, Roy Williams, Pitino, Self (et al) push the envelope to become and stay elite.
This site is soooooo un-user friendly :-)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Jun 8, 2009 9:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It takes a special talent
and knowledge only acquired as part of having blue blood coursing through your body.
by hoboat33 on Jun 8, 2009 10:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is a good one, ho"boat" lol
Blue, there is no other color to Bleed !!!
by a2d2 on Jun 9, 2009 11:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why isn't the story about the SAT and the Clearing House?
As an attorney, I have a hard time understanding why the media wants to crucify someone that had nothing to do with a crime or wrongdoing. Should the Kroger Manager lose his job because he accepted tainted meat that was marked USDA Certified just because it is later found to have come from a dirty plant that fraudulently marked the package. I don’t think so. Not unless they knew the meat was bad.
Should compliant kids lose their right to challenge for NCAA tournament honors because one of their alumni lied? Should a school be docked scholarships because they were duped (not just by the kid, but the NCAA Clearinghouse)? Should Rose have to pay the compliant students for their lost opportunity to participate in NCAA tournament and the exposure that gives their careers?
Why aren’t we focused on the wrongdoer and visiting the penalties of fraud upon him with all the force the law can muster? Instead, the ink is focused on a coach and staff that was duped. The press can’t even point to a similar violation at UMass. At UMass there was no fraud in testing. The kid was a legitimate student. His sin was accepting money under the table. He’s a pro now, make him pay for his damage.
Whether the school or coaching staff should catch such behavior is another matter. As we all know, cash transactions are hard to trace. Cars, houses to family members, jobs, pizzas, and other perks are somewhat easier to track.
I have no problem penalizing a school that is in complicity with fraud. Yet, Isn’t it a Mafia method to threaten the family and friends for non-compliance. Why is the NCAA permitted to take away a game from a team using a player they had passed upon? Isn’t their reasonable reliance upon that representation? If the player was non-compliant and hid that fact, the player should be sanctioned- not the school. You don’t negate a game because of bad calls or even because of crooked refs or umpires. You sanction the ref once the case is established and move on.
Yes, there appears to be wrong doing. Yet once the NCAA approved cracking the eggs and the omelet was made, you can’t say the school didn’t make the dish properly for accepting the egg the Association gave it to use and take its license to cook. That is fundamentally unfair in my view of the world.
by tbd4567 on Jun 8, 2009 2:05 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Wholeheartedly agree
As far as writing about Rose and his alleged indiscretion — I’ll wait and see how the fraud was perpetrated, and if adults were involved, before I have any comment. You may, or may not know that there are at least four test scores (from four different athletes) from Rose’s HS that have been under scrutiny. Whether that signals a conspiracy from within the administration of the school remains to be seen.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 2:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The buck stops where?
The so called “facts” (actually the extrapolation of a little bit of information) indicate that (redacted) cheated on the SAT. However, the organization that administers the test didn’t question it. The NCAA clearinghouse didn’t question it. The U of M athletic department didn’t question it. The U of M administration didn’t question it. If (redacted) actually did cheat, who should be blamed/punished? Why Calipari, of course. Or the Athletic Director. Or the university president. It’s a state school, so why not the governor? Or those who campaigned for the governor? Or those who voted for the governor? If and only if (redacted) cheated, the only one who should be punished is (redacted). Everyone is responsible for his or her own actions.
by UKCat on Jun 8, 2009 3:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
personal responsibility....
now there is a novel idea…..
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Jun 8, 2009 3:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If the NCAA did make a mistake
should they set back and do nothing for all the teams that used legal players?
Or should they correct their mistake and give back the wins to the teams that conformed to the rules?
by Bluebarn on Jun 8, 2009 3:33 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good question, Bluebarn
I have another question. When wins are forfeited, are those wins counted as losses? Are the opponents credited with wins? Or do the games just go into never-neverland? I truly don’t know.
by UKCat on Jun 8, 2009 3:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
UKCat -- The wins and losses are struck from the books. It's as if the games never happened.
Re: Bluebarn — What sticks in my crawl more than any other case is WKU in ’71. They made the FF, but the NCAA made them pay back the money, and came to BG and physically took the trophy out of the case. Along with striking the appearance from the books. All because Jim McDaniels accepted money from an agent prior to graduating.
Johnny Oldham (WKU coach) had no knowledge of the problem, and neither did anyone else at WKU. Of course, UCLA who was also a part of that FF suffers zero consequences while all manner of cheating and extra benefits were going on in Westwood.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 3:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well,
Maggette received that $ while in HS, not at Duke.
I don’t feel Duke should be punished in any way, just as UMass should not have been punished, and Memphis should not be punished for the mistakes of individual players, when their mistakes were unknown to the coaching staff.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 7:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm not disagreeing...
just continuing in the UCLA “inconsistency” vein of your (earlier) post. Though, I don’t think the timing of the $ makes/made a difference. The comments in Duke’s case indicated it hinged on their ignorance of the problem:
A player who receives payments would be ineligible, and the NCAA could have vacated Duke’s national runner-up finish in 1999. However, the organization determined the school was unaware Maggette should have been ineligible.
Based on the Duke case, the possibility of vacating in UM’s case should be zero — all they (UM) have to say is that they were unaware. But, then again, the same should have been true for the prior UMass…um,er,… vacation(?!) if my understanding of the situation are accurate (they were unaware, right?).
by atom on Jun 8, 2009 10:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I see
The two sentences you highlight seem to also highlight the NCAA’s inconsistent application of their own rules.
I agree 100% with your assertion that based on the Duke case, that Memphis should receive no punishment.
You are right in your assumption about UMass as well. No one within the program (other than Camby) knew of the payments he received.
This just adds fuel to the Duke-bias fire.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 8, 2009 10:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Elite Status? I suspect that's why Calipari came to Kentucky
He wanted to be at the table with the big boys. I can’t blame him. His record at Memphis is amazing but let’s face it, Conference USA is not the SEC. UK is a logical step for him. The guy’s got an ego. And that’s not a dig. You need a certain amount to be successful. But it can be dangerous. I just hope it doesn’t taken him down (and UK with him).
by cincyblue on Jun 8, 2009 4:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Today China, Tomorrow The World
I think there is a pretty good chance a Chinese player will be on scholarship to play basketball at UK in the next 5 years.
Straitpinkie provides a look at the strategy of Calipari to the PRC.
"[T]he opinion which gives to the judges the right to decide what laws are constitutional and what not, not only for themselves, in their, own sphere of action, but for the Legislature and Executive also in their spheres, would make the Judiciary a despotic branch."
--Thomas Jefferson, letter to Abigail Adams, 11 September 1804
by Wild Weasel on Jun 8, 2009 4:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mua Ha Ha Ha Ha
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jun 8, 2009 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Exactly...
The media has been on a witch-hunt since Cal showed his face in Lexington, and IMO the “crazed and drooling” writers are trying to lead us down some path of madness, by NOT getting the facts straight first…my associated signature is chosen directly and specifically for those “commentators”…
OK, Cats…let ’em rant, feeding their high opinions of self…we truely are above this insanity!!!
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as much as you please."...Mark Twain.
by KYCatwoman on Jun 8, 2009 5:46 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
For Ken
Hey Ken, Ok what I was talking about yesterday…………On Camby……I think that I will relent and say not much could be done to keep him from accepting the money from the agents. I feel that the main thing that needs to be done with that is keep them away from the agents but you cannot follow them everywhere. On Rose, if you have to go up to Chicago yourself and watch him walk into the room and watch him walk out in order to know for sure that HE took the SAT then you do it. We got burned with that once and it makes me nervous that it happened under a coach that is coaching for UK. You make sure that every athlete is following the rules. The program is in your hands. You go the extra mile. I don’t want to hear well Duke did this or Kansas did this. We are unique and special and I care only about what UK does. But again, I am on the bandwagon of Cals but we all know he will push the envelope. My point was that most of us including myself now just want to win and win big even if its in the gray area. “see no evil hear no evil” kind of thing and I think that Forde is saying that. Honestly we have to have this kind of coach if we want to be successful. All the great coaches push the envelope with the excpetion of Knight who well is retired and that is for a reason.
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Jun 9, 2009 10:36 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What I want to know is,
do they(the ETS) have any proof that the kid did not take the SAT?….simple…..did a person who took the test and knows Rose by face recognition see him somewhere else?….is he on camera….is the person how is supposed to have taken the test on camera
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Jun 9, 2009 10:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coaches witnessing the test
That is certainly not a bad idea, but I’m not sure how feasible it is.
You make your points very well.
by Ken Howlett on Jun 9, 2009 5:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
and I think an assistant would do the job nicely. Its so easy for these guys to cheat or I should say many are willing to make it easy for them. My children have been playing competive ball for several years now. I think that I am seeing that first hand now.
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Jun 10, 2009 10:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
IDIOCY
Personally I think Forde is an idiot who has a man-crush on Pitino. I think his day is coming and its a shame that he is from the Bluegrass. I have stopped reading anything even remotely related to him- if I see him on the worldwide leader, I channel surf. He doesnt deserve my time and someday hopefully very soon all Wildcat fans will do the same. His malicious and unfound accusations about Coach Cal and the Wildcat fans deserve a public apology but anyone who knows Forde is well aware that my friends, is NEVER coming. Someday though folks, just like Tipton and Story, Forde is gonna get his- I just hope and pray it makes its way to You-Tube
by catintn on Jun 10, 2009 6:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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