Kentucky Basketball: The Roaring Silence
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 19, 2009 9:02 AM EDT
in Commentary
293 comments
As has been the case since the 2008-09 version of the Wildcats failed to make the NCAA tournament, speculation about Billy Gillispie's future is running rampant throughout the Big Blue Nation. Traffic at Kentucky blogs and websites is at an all-time high judging from our traffic and recent comments over at Kentucky Sports Radio, and I expect the biggest reason for this is the uncertain future of the Kentucky basketball coach.
Of course, what we have now is only rumor and innuendo, but the problem is that the rumor and innuendo is coming not just from the predictable places, but from places that appear to be unusually close to the UK program. That does not in any way validate rumor as fact, and of course, we don't repeat rumors here on A Sea of Blue. Instead, we will examine the landscape of Kentucky basketball and speculate on some possible scenarios.
It's very difficult to sort through all the static and figure out exactly what is going on. Here is what we know for sure:
- Mitch Barnhart has made various public comments, all alluding to concern about the state of the program and where it is headed, but none pointed enough to indicate that Gillispie is about to be dismissed at the earliest available opportunity.
- Mitch Barnhart has stated that he will meet with Gillispie after the season to discuss his performance, just like he does every year.
- Journalists throughout the Commonwealth who are well-connected are getting very negative indications from their sources as to Gillispie's retention. Dick Gabriel is the latest and most celebrated, but there have been numerous others that are getting substantially the same feedback.
- National journalists of repute (not just Seth Davis) are getting negative feedback from their sources at UK about Gillispie's future with the program.
- The basketball team has put on a united front in support of Gillispie, even at least one player who many presume to be headed elsewhere after the season.
- Kentucky has obtained a verbal commitment from a new recruit to the 2009 class. It seems fairly unlikely that commitment would come if the recruit were not reassured about Gillispie's job security, at least for the coming year. Now, I point out that this is not a straight-line logical conclusion, it is merely another reasonable supposition that could, in fact, be wrong.
- Gillispie has a six million dollar "buyout" in his contract. Many people think this is chump change to the UKAA, but it is not. In fact, given the state of the economy and the fact that many donors are tapped out due to losses suffered by the markets, it may represent more money that UK can rationally afford at this point in time.
- Mitch Barnhart could dismiss all this distracting talk with the wave of his proverbial hand. He has chosen not to do so.
There have been many reasons posited justifying Gillispie's departure from a mass mutiny and departure of half the team to just about any other thing you can imagine. None of these "justifying" rumors have even the smallest hint of actual reality, at least not so far, but they are there.
Barnhart's failure to stop all this rumor-mongering, which he cannot fail to be aware of and cannot fail to know is a serious distraction to the coach and the team is the crux of this particular biscuit. Back during the furor surrounding Tubby Smith, Barnhart gave Smith the deadly "vote of confidence" fairly early in the process. As we all know, when we hear the "vote of confidence" from the AD during stormy times like this, it invariably ratchets up the perception that the coach is about to be fired. It's just one of those weird, counterintuitive things about the coaching carousel that, in this case, inures to Gillispie's favor.
But at the same time, Barnhart is clearly doing nothing whatever, back-channel or otherwise, to silence the rumor mill. He is either:
- Allowing the rumors to run rampant as an informed decision, or;
- Actually stimulating the rumors by leaving insiders with the impression Gillispie is in deep trouble.
We can't know anything for sure, but here are the possibilities as I see them:
- Barnhart does not know if he is going to fire Gillispie or not. He may truly be waiting on that meeting to determine whether, in his mind, the coach has a reasonable probability of success if he stays. That is not a simple evaluation by any means. Yes, Gillispie gets help next year, but can he be trusted to operate cleanly and competently under the crushing pressure that he will be under in the next 12 months?
If I were Barnhart, I would be very concerned about this point and would want to have a comfort level with the coach that he can handle it. The internecine media bloodbath now is a decent crucible in which to observe Gillispie's behavior, as it will be nothing next to the pressure he suffers in the run up to next year. - Barnhart hasn't ruled out firing Gillsipie and is not predisposed to do so, but does not want to make the same mistake he made with Tubby Smith. The damning "vote of confidence" in the Smith case brought a hail of criticism down on Barnhart from all quarters of the sports media, both in Kentucky and outside, and Smith made him look like a petulant fool in the end. He clearly learned from that, and is willing to let Gillsipe squirm rather than put himself in that position again.
- Barnhart wants Gillispie gone, and is using the rumor mill to pressure him into resigning or negotiating a settlement far under the current six million dollar figure. If this is Barnhart's plan, it is unlikely to work. If Gillispie were to sniff this out as Barnhart's plan, I predict Barnhart will be in a very bad place when it comes to negotiating any settlement.
- Barnhart has raised or can raise the money and is committed to firing Gillsipe as soon as the season is over. If this is the case, there is no need for him to say a word and he is making the coach sweat it out from pure malice.
Myself, I see #1 and #2 as most likely, but that's just me, and I am forced to include the caveat that I am a noted optimist and supporter of Gillispie in the instant case. That support could collapse if Gillispie does something reprehensible or stupid, but absent that, it will be there. I don't know Barnhart well enough to judge the likelihood of any of these probabilities with anything approaching confidence, but I do assume that he has the best interests of Kentucky (or at least, himself) at heart. I see great personal risk for Barnhart in firing Gillispie after only two years with the fan base so divided. Without a defensibly mutual parting of the ways, the fans could fracture, Barnhart could lose support within the UK administration and he could join his subordinate in the unemployment line.
On the other hand, if Barnhart gives Gillispie one more year and Gillispie succeeds only moderately, the situation at this point next year may not be much improved. Kentucky fans have exhausted most of their reflexive good will toward Gillispie, and are now demanding performance. A deep tournament run next year would do wonders for him, but he really needs several consecutive years to recover his lost reservoir of good will. Is that even possible? I'm not sure.
In the end, I suppose, we will know when we know. At this point, it is difficult to trust even the mainstream media, because it is clear that there are high placed sources at UK that are speculating just as much as everyone else. One thing I believe is that unless the unexpected happens and we wind up with a team that includes both Patterson and Meeks next year, Gillispie will be facing a daunting challenge. With just one of the two, he can probably do enough next year to save his job for year four, but will it be worth saving? I can't see that far into the future.
We are living in interesting times, and it is every bit the curse the Chinese thought it was.
2 recs |
293 comments
|
Email
Print
Comments
How I see the rumors
When you start getting mainstream press citing unnamed high placed sources, you are entering the realm of politicians that put out leaks in an effort to establish/raise/lower/manage expectations. I think Tru is dead on with his assessment that Barnhart learned from his vote of confidence fiasco, and this time is using controlled leaks as a way to set the table for action.
The comments by Gabriel from the “official” UK affiliate is pretty damning in confirming to me that this is the approach the AD is taking.
At this point, how I feel about BCG is irrelevant, something is in motion and we’re just waiting on our NIT run to end to find out what that is.
by Ontherocks on Mar 19, 2009 9:26 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree
When Seth Davis or Jeff Goodman spout off, you take it with a grain of salt. When someone with the credibility of Dick Gabriel says it, to me, it has instant credibility.
The one who looks the worst in all of this is Barnhart. Honestly, if he screws this situation up, I can’t see how be can survive, let alone Billy G.
Great write up Tru.
by btcoop71 on Mar 19, 2009 9:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No high profile coach is gonna want to come here if there is no loyalty...TS left because Barnyard told him to fire his staff...he didn't..so bye-bye
by FOXTRAIL on Mar 19, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is not correct...
Mitch ask him to “consider” making some changes, he was gonna’ bring on his son and Mitch frowned upon it, so they parted ways…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Mitch frowning
Not sure that Mitch frowned upon it.
UK’s nepotism laws forbid Tubby from hiring his son as an assistant coach.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Mar 19, 2009 4:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not right.
Tubby refused to replace any of his assistants … as davw points out, Tubby couldn’t hire Saul while he was at UK, and even if there wasn’t a nepotism law, Tubby still would have never brought Saul to UK as an assistant. After what Saul went through as a player at UK, Tubby would have never done that to his son … again.
by Ken Howlett on Mar 20, 2009 1:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Exactly
The request Replace Your Assistants never got that far.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 6:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The only way I see Gillispie getting fired
As with everyone else, I am only speculating, but here goes. . .
I believe the $6mm buyout figure will prevent Gillispie’s firing. This is not just a matter of raising the money. Yes, UK could probably raise it (incidentally, I don’t believe it will be as easy to raise as others have assumed it to be, but I think it could be done). It is more a matter of perception – in terrible economic times, with people being laid off, tuition being raised, paycuts, etc., does the University want to be defending a $6mm payout to a coach that has 1) broken no rules, and 2) just won 20 games? I really don’t think they do, and I could see some in the administration (up to and including Lee Todd) concerned that it would boomerang on them and cost them their jobs. Perception matters in this case.
HOWEVER, this is the only way I see BCG being gone: UK has convinced itself that, given the coach’s lack of a formal contract, it is not obligated to pay the buyout money. At the very least, it feels it has enough of a defensible argument that it can force BCG to accept significantly less than $6mm. I know the MoU exists and is binding, but it is still not a contract. Put enough lawyers on the subject, and you can probably convince yourself the buyout doesn’t have to be paid (N.B.: this doesn’t mean UK won’t ultimately end up responsible for paying it as determined by a court, just that it has convinced itself that it can win a lawsuit).
UK believing that it does not have to pay the buyout is the only way I see BCG being gone.
C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!
by NYCCats on Mar 19, 2009 9:35 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
His buyout is speficically sated in the MOU
No way will they get out of it, and the court fight would drag on and on.
by btcoop71 on Mar 19, 2009 9:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rebuttal (with all due respect, of course)
Have you actually read the MoU (the whole thing)? While the buyout clause may be in there, that does not mean there is not other language that can be used to render that clause invalid.
A possible scenario (and I’m just spitballin’): UK makes the argument that BCG’s failure to sign a formal contract creates breach of the MoU (argument: the MoU was signed as a prelude to a formal contract with the expectation that it would lead to one; not signing that contract means BCG is demonstrating that he is not willing to fulfill the terms of the agreement). Or even: something has happened that has not been fully reported that UK could construe as a breach (no-showing some alumni function, etc.). Again, not saying that they can win either argument, just that they think they can.
C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!
by NYCCats on Mar 19, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I've read it
And to your senario, there is language about signing the contract within 60 days….could that constitue a breach?
by btcoop71 on Mar 19, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the link
C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!
by NYCCats on Mar 19, 2009 10:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You make a very good point, NYCCats.
Further, if UK decided not to pay, Gillispie would have to sue. UK can and would fight it with a team of $$$ lawyers, and could make everything very difficult for Gillispie. Proceedings such as depositions and interrogatories could force Gillispie to reveal dirty laundry, though I’m not sure dirty laundry exists in his time in Kentucky or not. UK very well might go beyond whether the buyout is valid or not and try to say that he breached the MOU with his behavior. Despite the rumors of good or bad behavior since he arrived in Lexington, at this point likely Gillispie and the administration know whether his behavior truly was good or bad.
Bottom line, it could be a very expensive and embarrasing fight for Gillispie. While he certainly is quite wealthy, long court battles paying teams of lawyers at $200-$500/hour rates gets very expensive for an individual, even a wealthy one. You’re talking legal fees that could end up being $200K – $500K before all is said and done.
Of course, there are two other options in this scenario. 1. Lawyers take Gillispie’s case on contingency, and they get 1/3 of whatever he recovers, potentially $2 million. 2. Whatever school might hire Gillispie would fund his legal battle with UK.
Personally, I still support Gillispie along similar lines as Tru, and hope it doesn’t come to this. If he is terminated or decides to leave, hopefully he is sent off with a fair buyout package that all parties agree on. Hopefully, he gets one more year and these rumors of 5 or 6 players leaving are all BS, he signs a contract, and all this is put to bed.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.
by blbskue on Mar 19, 2009 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dirty laundry can get dirt on everyone
NCAA would be closely monitoring any dirty laundry for violations.
by hoboat33 on Mar 19, 2009 2:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dirty laundry has many meanings.
Not necessarily NCAA violations.
by ikietoy on Mar 19, 2009 10:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
It is far from certain that $6 million can be easily raised (unless an AIG executive happens to be UK booster, J/K on that).
That last time UK needed $6 million quick, UK alumnus (and Tubby’s friend from Tulsa) Joe Craft pitched in most of it. And the new practice facility was built.;
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 9:42 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Disagree
See Tuberville – He has ($)5.1 million reasons that such a buyout can be paid in this economy…and many thought it could not be done.
I don’t see BCG leaving for other reasons, but raising the money is not one of them….
by memphis wildcat on Mar 19, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rumors.......
are nothing but unsubstantiated drivel no matter who is spinning them. Sure it’s very troubling to hear it from Dick Gabriel and other respected journalists, but it still just a rumor. One thing that really concerned me about BCG was his comment about being here to coach and recruit and nothing else. Yes, that is his main focus BUT he has to be an ambassador for UK ball too whether he wants to or not. Like Barnhart said, he’s more recognizable than the governor. That being said, he hasn’t done wonders for his media/public image and when it’s compounded with the questionable end of the season…………..viola, you have the current firestorm! A quote that fits: “The only thing people like better than building up a hero is tearing him down”
by slidemank on Mar 19, 2009 10:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
so then the "conventional wisdom" in the national media on UK Athletics becomes
“they run off Tubby Smith, then after two winning seasons, they fire BCG and refuse to pay him what they promised…” ??
by Gobe Igbloo on Mar 19, 2009 2:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, f*** 'em
To quote a wise man: “Embrace the hate”
C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!
by NYCCats on Mar 19, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The First Isn't True, The Second (And Third) Won't Happen
Can’t control or influence national media.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 5:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thoughts...
my thoughts are that BCG hasn’t signed the contract after 2 years and the Administration doesn’t know what he will do so they can’t offer any more assurance than they already have…I would imagine after the season they will sit down and if he doesn’t sign the contract then we and he will move on…BCG is our coach and we will be successful if he stays, UK will be successful if he goes…as Ricky P learned, we will move on…we’ve hit bottom and with the class coming in we’ll be back in the national scene shortly…
by bradylteague on Mar 19, 2009 9:37 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Your best
work in this write up tru. Awesome. I will quote you below:
On the other hand, if Barnhart gives Gillispie one more year and Gillispie succeeds only moderately, the situation at this point next year may not be much improved. Kentucky fans have exhausted most of their reflexive good will toward Gillispie, and are now demanding performance. A deep tournament run next year would do wonders for him, but he really needs several consecutive years to recover his lost reservoir of good will. Is that even possible? I’m not sure.
That right there is his dilema(Mitch). I would not want to be in his position at all.
WIth all that said…………….unless there is mistreatment of players then BG deserves another year of getting the team together. 14 losses and twenty plus wins is not horrible. Its not UK but its not horrible. If he does fire him for that reason then we will look like idiots.
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 19, 2009 9:41 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
imagine this scenario
- UK “runs off” BCG
- BCG ends up at Georgia, Virginia, Arizona, whatever
- OTS and BCG end up in the Sweet 16
- UK loses players, recruits, fails to make the NCAA tourney 2 years in a row
How would that look?
Unlikely?
by Gobe Igbloo on Mar 19, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry
but – in my opinion – it would be deserved.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 2:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If UK "runs off" BCG...
and goes wherever (Duke, UNC, Lakers), he isn’t taking anyone to the sweet 16 next year. And we can take a “good” coach and make the tournament next year (with or without Meek/Patterson). Our conference sucks and we have very good players right now. So this fear need not factor in. We’re way overestimating how good Gillispie is and underestimating how good our players are
by crewcat on Mar 20, 2009 8:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very Good?
Discounting Patterson and Meeks — who as 1st team All-SEC I suppose could be so characterized — name me a single UK player who is “very good”. I would say “good” about caps the current developed talent level with “fair” being the category with the largest cohort.
by Wild Weasel on Mar 20, 2009 11:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Darius Miller
Just one example.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 11:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It would
be a shame to let BCG go after two seasons. I won’t pretend to know the situation, but people are asking him to back down from a position that I’m not sure he should back down from. My feeling is that he wants the players to leave their hearts on the floor every practice and every game. I don’t see a problem with that. Compromising would be a mistake.
by Byron on Mar 19, 2009 9:43 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I Haven't Seen Any Criticism Of That Aspect
Every UK coach in my lifetime (born in 1951) wanted maximum effort from UK players.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 9:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
but
the implication is that he’s abusing the players, I frankly don’t think that could be possible. Other people imply he’s failing to motivate them. That might be true. I think some of them might be sullen from lack of playtime, and it all has to do with their effort. Soooo basically a lot of why the team “fell apart” has to do with BCG seeing a lack of effort and not compromising.
A coach gets a reputation for toughness but a winning strategy and the recruits come in expecting a hard time, right now he doesn’t have the benefit of said reputation, he makes gambles on JUCO recruitment because he knows he needs to produce immediately, and some of those don’t seem to work out…
See how it’s snowballing? Man I should be an architect, look what I built! The entire reason for BCG’s perceived failure.
by Byron on Mar 19, 2009 9:49 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry Forty
but although I like Tubby as a coach, but he played some guys that didn’t put forth a lot of effort…wanting effort and demanding it are two different things.
by Byron on Mar 19, 2009 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never Mentioned Any Particular Name
Every UK coach I ever saw expected maximum effort from his players.
Most gave it, some didn’t.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Player Abuse
That would NEVER be tolerated.
People who don’t think (most) Div I coaches are tough on their players have no idea about reality.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
think that a heavy investigation will be done as to why the players are unhappy or if they are.
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 19, 2009 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Players Were Frequently Unhappy In Rupp And Hall Days
It comes with the nature of playing at a Top Shelf program like UK.
Schools like UCLA, UNC, Duke, Kansas are not immune, either.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If Meeks
thinks he’s NBA ready enough to go, he’s wrong. Patterson isn’t even quite there yet, but he has a better case for it. Hood, Orton, Patterson, Meeks, Miller, Liggins (kid will get better)….so far that roster doesn’t look too horrible.
by Byron on Mar 19, 2009 9:51 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree Tru
I believe point 1 & 2 is where Barnhart is on BG also. I went to the SEC tournament and got a totally different feel from the people there compared to the feelings of people on line. The Lexington people are not happy at all. It seems to me the people that do not live in the Kentucky area want to give BG another year. Person after person, after I said we need to give him another year asked me, do you really want to watch this again next year? I only talked to two people that wanted him back. I was shocked. It made me think, Porter starting at point guard next year, Miller not starting, erratic substitution patterns, disrespect for people, hardheadedness, absolutely never see a zone defense, and losses’ to inferior competition. I have to admit I see there point. At the time I didn’t know there was a $1,500,000 per year payout but still wanted to give BG another year just to see the next coach get another year under there belt assuming the choice will come down to Pelphrey or Ford. Can one of those two guys come in next year and get to the final 4 with this team? I’m not too sure of that. If BG goes into that meeting with a smart ass attitude we will have a new coach, but if he is determined to succeed he will listen and listen well and we could have a great season next year. I am hoping BG listens.
by Grasslands1 on Mar 19, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it is worth remembering a point made earlier (by Tru and others)
It is patently unfair to fire a coach for the “crimes” you list above when we (the AD) knew all along this is what we were getting. WE KNEW we were getting a hard ass. WE KNEW we were getting a guy that didn’t play zone. WE KNEW we were getting a guy that was a little shy/awkward with the media. WE KNEW we were getting a basketball junkie that did things his way.
To dismiss him for being exactly as advertised, after only two years, is completely weak in my opinion. If so, Barnhart needs to make his own resignation his next action after firing BCG, because it was Barnhart who would have failed in his evaluation, not BCG in his performance.
C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!
by NYCCats on Mar 19, 2009 9:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
because it was Barnhart who would have failed in his evaluation
is the most accurate of all arguments. It doesn’t really help where we are right now though.
by Ontherocks on Mar 19, 2009 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nice avatar, BTW
C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!
by NYCCats on Mar 19, 2009 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I honestly
didn’t know about the losses to inferior competition, especially on Senior night when he was hired. It will not be tolerated at UK.
by Grasslands1 on Mar 19, 2009 10:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well said
It is Barnhart. I for one (and maybe the only one) will find another SCHOOL to root for. This has the potential to be a total circus and put UK in a perception that it will take years to recover from. Look at how the media types and others view us now. If you think its bad now…believe me it can get worse. I for one wont be a part of the craziness. If Billy G if fired, i’ll never be back to anything connected to UK.
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Mar 19, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that's loyalty....not
no offence, but I don’t personally know ANY TRUE UK fans that would be willing to jump ship, no matter how bad it gets
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 12:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then...
i guess im not a TRUE fan by your standards….
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Mar 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're what we call
a fairweather fan
by uk1982 on Mar 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That is just your emotions
you will be back… lol Once you have that blue blood run through your veins, your true blue forever..!
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Point
my point is, like many UK fans(although ive been dubbed not a real fan) is that what happens on the playing fields affects my whole demenor(spelling). My wife KNOWS not to talk to me after a loss. I wore UK scrubs to work the other day and was rode out (by another so-called UK fan) for having them on. I just think its total insanity for any talk of firing BG. Granted i am disappointed, i hate how this season has gone. If i walked out on my wife everytime she didnt do what i marrieded her for, id be gone more than i was home. I dont know…i guess im just tired of it.
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Mar 19, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would be back
because I LOVE UK, but there would always be a part of me hoping UK would run into Billy again some day with his new team and that they would in turn kick the crap out of us.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
WHAT...????
So, is UK was to play Minnesota, you would root for Minnesota too..?
lol
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Vince...
you crack me up dude. Honestly..id quit watching the game.
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Mar 19, 2009 12:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I have no idea why I crack you up...
…I guess it’s better then pissing you off… lol
Heck, I think Tink may be ready o throw her monitor at me by now… ;-}
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
Not worth the costs in repair.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ouch...
vince…your not worth it??? lol
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Mar 19, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Get a room!
;-)
We're all just a banana peel away from eternity.
by SD_UK_FAN on Mar 19, 2009 8:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Nope
But I feel that Tubby had adequate time here and that his move was really mutual and that both parties were happy in their decisions. That is NOT the case here. This is wrong and I would wish Billy vengence.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then I would conclude,,,
…That you are NOT a Kentucky fan, but a Billy G fan…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Whatever you say Vince
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I kid...
I know you are a Kentucky fan to the bone…
You and I are a lot alike, we just have a different opinion of Billy G., that’s all…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
A lot alike?
I must have missed something. Cant really recall anything we have ever agreed on. Its been a long season though – surely there was something… ;)
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was thinking that we both want UK to succeed...
…We both attended the same UK game…
…We both sit in the same section for that game…
…We both noticed the “out-of-place” hippie… lol
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL!
Ok – you got me on that.
By the way, you didnt happen to be sitting next to me at the Memorial game the other night, did you?
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
no...
I went online to get tickets at 11pm the night they went on sale… All they had were upper level, so I past.. Wish I would have gone now though… dang it..!
Was the hippie there.? lol
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 1:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No hippie sighting.
I was really kidding with you. Did you see my comments about the guy sitting next to me at the game in the post mortem? I figured either he was you or you would really like him. :)
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 1:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I seen your comments...
and no, I would not like him… When i go to a game, I’m full throttle BIG BLUE…
My comments on this blog are for this blog only… My way of venting…
I would never say anything about players or coach while at the game… That’s just pathetic in my opinion…
I think if your are at the game, you should continue to cheer and yell and support your team… Try to help them come back or stay focused…
You see, we are a lot alike Tink, we just have a different opinion of coach, that’s all…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 1:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good for you Vince!
Best comment I have seen from you in a while ;)
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 1:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True...
Except i wouldnt want Billy or any other coach to get vengence. It was Pitino’s (bad) decision to go, I believe Tubby’s leaving was mutual, this, as kygirl said is TOTALLY different
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Mar 19, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby
lost the will to fight for his job I think…………I am starting the think that Billy may feel the same way. I think that we all need to realize that this has to be pressing on him and I would not be suprised to see Billy be done with us.
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 19, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Like To Avoid This
But neither Tubby nor Billy lost the will for anything.
Tubby lost 25 games in 2 years. Billy lost 26 in 2 years.
That’s the most important thing they lost – too many games.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Grasslands....Pelphrey or Ford?
Pelphrey has a lot to prove at Arkansas first and Ford……has made some enemies….
by ikietoy on Mar 19, 2009 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great point about the donors...
being tapped out. I work for a financial advising firm and EVERYONE has lost a lot of money lately. If Mitch started making calls he would soon find out that maybe these donors would be in favor of giving him one more year (so that their portfolio’s can heal up some).
The only way that BCG regains the goodwill he had when he first arrived is to have a deeeep tournament run next year and to follow that up with some decent runs in the years following.
by ben-p on Mar 19, 2009 10:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He Should Get 2-3 More Years
1 year is not enough. Injuries can impact 1 year too much.
I think he can be fairly judged over a 5 year period.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I would say 2 years
To give him a team that he recruited. But I’m not really important enough for my opinion to make much of a difference. I did see President Todd at the game the other night, but he didn’t ask what I thought about Coach.
by ben-p on Mar 19, 2009 10:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We must be in the vast minority
because I agree he needs more than one more year.
by memphis wildcat on Mar 19, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Me too
It does appear to be that “one more year” is the minority and that bothers me SO much. I really can not even believe that this is happening. I mean, just a couple of weeks ago, it was “He will get one more year.” “No way UK fires him after just two seasons.” Now it seems as if everyone is beginning to think that its over for Gillispie. I really really really hope that is not the case. If that happens, that will be a very hard thing for me to get behind.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
One more year?
There is not a coach in this country with any integrity that would want to come into Lexington and sit in Rupp, in front of the worst fans in collegiate basketball.
I don’t have a dog in this fight personally. I graduated from a west coast school that isn’t even in existance any longer but I can say without fear of rebuttal from any reasonable quarter that there is a sampling of kentucky basketball fans who are the worst possible, fair weather bunch of whinning babies I have ever seen and I lived in many places both foriegn and domestic during my career.
The people who demand that BCG be fired are the same bunch who demanded that Rich Brooks be thrown to the wolves. Their only enjoyment in life is to attempt to destroy a coach, a program, a university. That includes Dick Gabriel, John Clay and Jerry Tipton. Were they worth their weight is salt they’d be employed in a much more lucrative market than is Lexington, KY
The “coaches” who rant and whine regadarding TOS, RB, or BCG are beneath contempt as are their cute little signs and bumper stickers.
This entire discussion would be nothing more than a loud burp were it not for the fact that there are no other sports programs, collegiate or professional within a drivable radius of Lexington that are worth rooting for.
Damn—-now I feel better.
by Blujean on Mar 19, 2009 3:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon don't hold back ;-)
I agree with the las statement “.. there are no other sports programs, collegiate or professional within a drivable radius of Lexington…”.
As to the rest of your comment, you certainly do put a collective label on folks – " Worst fans…., same bunch…, fair weather…, only enjoyment….". I was going to respond more but it’s not worth the time, your mind is already decided. I only wonder why you came here if you have such a resentment of UK fans.
by hoboat33 on Mar 19, 2009 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reds, Bengals?
Both with driving distance of Lexington.
Worth Rooting For (Or Not) is in the eye of the beholder.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 4:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Reluctantly Agreeable
While I’m not in accordance with the details of your comment I am loath to disagree with the underlying principle. BTW, that should be OTS.
by Wild Weasel on Mar 19, 2009 4:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK Fans Are The Worst???
Oh (very hot place where the devil lives) No!
UK has some of the best fans anywhere.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 4:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hey Blujean,
You may have lived in many places in your life (as have I) but you obviously don’t understand what you’re criticizing. In sports, EVERYTHING in Kentucky, and that probably includes the horses, takes a back seat to UK basketball. It’s the very reason there are no professional sports franchises in Kentucky. And by the way, don’t forget that little school just 60 miles west that has a national title or two, and that some folks think might just win a couple of games in the dance this year.
We're all just a banana peel away from eternity.
by SD_UK_FAN on Mar 19, 2009 8:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Apparently you don't live in Lexington or the bluegrass area.
People here, who support the cats year in and year out have become adamant about his leaving. Billy G has more than worn out his welcome and has embarrassed people, who didn’t deserve it. The bridges have been burned.
by ikietoy on Mar 20, 2009 4:59 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He Has Never Coached A Team Of 100% His Own Recruits
Mark Turgeon has coached such teams to 25 W last year and 23 W (so far) this year.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
With Gillispie Players
One cannot overlook the fact that Turgeon had the benefit of coaching a more talented group in his first year in College Station than Gillispie had in his inaugural season in Lexington. More important than talent however is the attitude and competitive profile of the team: Turgeon had — still has to some extent — the carryover from Gillispie-instilled toughness and will to win. Much the same as what Smith inherited from Pitino.
by Wild Weasel on Mar 19, 2009 12:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh gawd...
you had to add the Tubby with Pitino’s recruits…
IGNORE it Forty, just look away…!!!!!! lol
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Saw Wild Weasel Name And Knew There Was Nothing Worthwhile
But thanks for the tip.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 1:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
move along forty..
nothing to see here :)
by memphis wildcat on Mar 19, 2009 12:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
9-22 To 20-14 Now 22-10
Somebody must have instilled something into the 9-22 guys to flip their record to 22-10 in just 2 years.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with that statement forty...
I simply am not convinced it was BG who did the instilling. I see no evidence of that ability in Lexington. And by the way… TUBBY TUBBY TUBBY
Hah! made ya look!
We're all just a banana peel away from eternity.
by SD_UK_FAN on Mar 19, 2009 8:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think a big problem
with BG is the perception he lost this team somewhere. He has definitely lost a lot of the people living in the UK area.
by Grasslands1 on Mar 19, 2009 10:07 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I think the real questions is
whether or not Barnhart is worried about his job after another losing basketball season. So we should be trying to find out whether he’s got a lot of debt or bought a new house he needs to pay for etc… :P
by Byron on Mar 19, 2009 10:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah, if Arkansas fans can get Houston Nutt's cell phone records
How come we can’t get Barnhart’s credit report? ;-)
C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!
by NYCCats on Mar 19, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OT Trivia
Houston Nutt’s Dad played basketball for Adolph Rupp at UK.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Losing Basketball Seasons
I only remember one (1989, 13-19).
UK is 21-13 now. Its worst finish would be 21-14. That is not a losing season.
Not a great season, either.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better Words
UK is 83-51 (62%) the past 4 seasons. 2-3 in NCAA and 1-0 (so far) in NIT = 3-3 in postseason.
NO DOUBT these are Below Average or subpar years for UK basketball.
UK was 152-59 (72%) from 1960-67 (8 seasons) yet many perceived most of those years as failed seasons, too. 5 of 8 years with fewer than 20 W. 4 of 8 with no postseason play at all. And “only” 5-5 in postseason NCAA games.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And interestingly,
One of those years in the sixties (’66) produced a team that went to the National Championship game.
We're all just a banana peel away from eternity.
by SD_UK_FAN on Mar 19, 2009 8:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regardless The 60's Were WAY Down From 40's And 50's
Those decades produced 6 teams that played for NIT or NCAA title.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My First post
Could it be possible that BCG does not want to return next year…………………maybe thats why nothings been said?
by BBUKFAN on Mar 19, 2009 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
thought about it
but I don’t see that guy backing down from….anyone.
by Byron on Mar 19, 2009 10:14 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
thought about it
Billy G is on the local news almost every day here in Lexington and he looks like a deer in the headhlights. He’s scared to death, believe me.
by ikietoy on Mar 19, 2009 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry.
I don’t believe you. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 7:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I tend to agree with your notion
That Coach is uncomfortable at UK and wants out. If that is the case, there is no $6 million due him. And he will be hired quickly at a school where he can just recruit and coach. For example, Ok. State after Travis comes to UK?
by catmax on Mar 19, 2009 10:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Will Be Flabbergasted If Travis Ford Is Coaching UK Next Season
He’s a good (promising) coach but WAY too inexperienced for UK job.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree there Forty
Neither Ford or Pelphrey have had the experience or the results needed to be coach at UK, even if they do understand the pressure.
by kykat51 on Mar 19, 2009 10:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
ha......Travis Ford
Jump from the frying pan and into the fire.
by uk1982 on Mar 19, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Was BCG that much more experienced?
by Clay Mason on Mar 20, 2009 4:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes
Travis never coached at BCS school until Okla St this year.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 6:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Addendum to #1
If I were Barnhart, I would wait out any decision until the last game is played. It’s (remotely) possible that UK could catch fire and end up blowing out everyone in the NIT tournament. If this happened, there’s certainly justification for another year for Gillispie. Meanwhile, if Mitch had already fired him, it would make UK and Mitch look really bad.
by EEWildcat on Mar 19, 2009 10:16 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It's inexcusable
to fire a coach in season, IMO. Whether its the middle of the season or during a postseason tourney, it doesn’t matter. Alabama and Georgia ought to be ashamed of themselves for doing it this season, and gaining what? Still no coach, still no midseason turnaround. Say what you will about Barnhart, but I believe the man has too much class to fire BCG before our season ends.
by Ontherocks on Mar 19, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Cannot See How / Why Gillispie Would Be Fired
He may or may not choose (or agree) to leave but there is nothing that warrants his firing.
Eddie Sutton wasn’t fired until the 1989 season was over. And some prefer to say he chose to resign before he was fired.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 10:30 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't arguing he should be fired
just that the idea of him (or any coach) being fired in-season is reprehensible.
by Ontherocks on Mar 19, 2009 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Recruit Craziness
What do people think are the implications of signing this recruit to make us TWO SCHOLARSHIPS over the limit and it’s implications on Gillispie’s retention. It just seems crazy to me. I feel overwhelmed by the unknowns of who’s going to be back between Gillspie/Patterson/Liggins/Stewart/Meeks (and that’s assuming Williams is gone).
by EEWildcat on Mar 19, 2009 10:22 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Bad Economy not an excuse for no buyout....
same excuse was used to say Tuberville would not be fired. AU still came up with $5+ million for his buyout.
by memphis wildcat on Mar 19, 2009 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
short-term memory
it seems to me that a deep run in the tournament next year would make all of this go away. there was huge discontent in blue country last year until the CATS went 12-4 in the SEC. it was back after the VMI loss, seemed to wane after the CATS went on a run and started the SEC 5-0, and returned with a vengeance as the CATS’ fortunes suffered at the end of this season and missed the dance.
during all that time gillispie has been the same person— not great with the media, not playing zone, not making big adjustments during the games, stubbornly running tough game-time practices, etc.
the bottom line to CAT fans is winning. if the CATS are winning the coach can do little wrong. and when they lose, god help him. a regular season with win totals in the high twenties, a 12-4 conference record, and a run to the sweet 16 or elite eight would more than buy coach clyde another year.
by mateotemprano1 on Mar 19, 2009 11:06 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
agree -
we have no problems a few more wins would not cure…
by memphis wildcat on Mar 19, 2009 11:09 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yup, agreed
Tru is rarely wrong, but I think he is wrong about this:
Kentucky fans have exhausted most of their reflexive good will toward Gillispie, and are now demanding performance. A deep tournament run next year would do wonders for him, but he really needs several consecutive years to recover his lost reservoir of good will.
A 28-4 season, first place in the SEC, and Elite Eight finish and there would be NO PROBLEMO.
by Gobe Igbloo on Mar 19, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
upon reflection
well, Tru is rarely wrong.
And I probably misinterpreted him. He didn’t say “fans would not be happy” after a deep run. He said BCG would still be without a “reservoir of good will.” I retract. Tru is right!
by Gobe Igbloo on Mar 19, 2009 2:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
25 W, Sweet 16, SEC Title Or SECT Championship
Those 3 at a minimum.
Pitino did all 3 coming off Rock Bottom Probation.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think an NIT title THIS year would make this all go away.
Hope springs eternal…
We're all just a banana peel away from eternity.
by SD_UK_FAN on Mar 19, 2009 8:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Go Away, No
Feel better, yes.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 6:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How did all this happen?
UK was sitting at 16-4, 5-0 and ranked again finally. Everything was going great. BG was the man, and UK was climbing to the top and poised to make a run this year and go into next year as a potential top 10. After that, Patterson’s taped up fingers causes a noticeable temporary dip in his production. Meeks was blazing hot up to that point! Since that time, Meeks is 33-106 from three (31), and if you take away the Arkansas game, he is 26-94 for 28. This is why the team couldnt continue winning. Any questions?
It's the end of the line. I'm the firstborn. Sick of playing second fiddle. Always third in line for everything. Tired of finishing fourth. Being the fifth wheel. There are six things I'm mad about, and I'm taking over. -UK Basketball (Gob from A.D.)
by ChiroCat on Mar 19, 2009 11:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That should say
31% and 28%
It's the end of the line. I'm the firstborn. Sick of playing second fiddle. Always third in line for everything. Tired of finishing fourth. Being the fifth wheel. There are six things I'm mad about, and I'm taking over. -UK Basketball (Gob from A.D.)
by ChiroCat on Mar 19, 2009 11:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Self
I would love for someone to interview him and get his thoughts on this whole fiasco with Coach G.
I personally do not want to see Coach leave on his own or be fired. I think he needs at one or maybe 2 years to continue what he was hired to do and get his system going with his recruits.
by kykat51 on Mar 19, 2009 11:09 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
His System Worked Fine With Somebody Else's Recruits, Too
He should get 2-3 more years.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 11:13 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd Call It "Nonsense" Myself
The writer of that article lost me when he said that Gillispie’s only qualification for the UK job is that he’s a different color than Tubby Smth.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the warning
I am not clicking that link.
by EEWildcat on Mar 19, 2009 11:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got to the allusion to racism ...
… and stopped.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 7:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Couldn't read any further than the first sentence
C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!
by NYCCats on Mar 19, 2009 11:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah actually
the link in the article was what I should have posted.
by Byron on Mar 19, 2009 11:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2 points
1. If 5 players are indeed willing to leave the program if BCG is back (which I find unlikely), UK almost has to fire him.
On the other hand…
2. The team had a bad couple of months this year leading to ONE bad season. Can anyone tell me of another coach who has recently won coach of the year in a mid-major, the Big 12, and the SEC that is willing to coach UK?
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 11:40 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Point #2
Some considered last year (18-13) a “bad” season, too.
Whenever the UK coaching job has been open (in the past – 1972, 1985, 1989, 2007) there weren’t quite as many interested coaches as one might think.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 11:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
dissapointing season
last season was dissapointing yes, but not necessarily bad – no school, not even UK, could justify telling a coach that won coach of the year in his conference that he did a flat out bad job that year
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 12:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not only was it NOT "bad"
but I cant tell you how many people went out of last season referring to it as “special” and saying how “proud” they were to have been a part of it. Disappointing or not – the majority of Cat fans that I encountered left last season in good spirits.
That is part of why this season (and all the chaos surrounding it) breaks my heart. Talk about your 360.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 12:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
remember how scared we all were that OSU was going to snatch BCG away from us at the end of last season?
I would be more inclined to call it a 180, but I think we all know what you mean – heck maybe I’d even call it a 540!
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 12:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes - 180
I totally remember that. Ken had his “G aint going nowhere” mantra going and we were all a nervous wreck. This is really really sad to me. Sad and unfair. I would even go so far as to say sad, unfair, and wrong.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 12:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry But 18-13 Is Below Average, Subpar By UK Standards
I go by UK standards.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 1:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You go by whatever you want.
I was not talking about the season record. I was talking about all the fans and their feelings about the season in general.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 1:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Don't Know Many UK Fans Who Liked 2008 Season
5-7 OOC, downright lousy.
12-4 SEC, pleasant surprise.
0-2 postseason, disappointing end.
Injuries were a BIG factor.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then you werent on this board
The morale was high and the words “special” and “proud” were used very often.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 2:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Last year was neither.
The 5-7 OOC record was not special, nor were postseason results.
I’m as optimistic as anyone but 2008 was a disappointing year at UK.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Forty
Last year was a disapointment. Conference play was really good, it was that 5-7 start that killed them. That, and no Jasper. Then the 0-2 postseason.
by btcoop71 on Mar 19, 2009 2:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After a 5-7 start in OOC,
everyone was thinking that we would just be happy to keep the “streak” alive. To go 12-4 was “special” in this context.
if you had told me we would win more games this year than last, i would have been happy and said we were improving.
will admit it is tough to take that position given the games we won (and the ones we lost).
what a roller coaster……
by memphis wildcat on Mar 19, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's just how it was
I heard those comments everywhere.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 3:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pleasant Surprise
The team went on a winning streak and looked really good until Patrick hurt his ankle – a lot like the 2003 team with Bogans’s ankle (except 2003 was much better and was better the whole SEC season). Like you said, injuries.
I think people liked what he did with limited staff last year. I agree with Tink that the fans were happy.
This year, though, we sure didn’t get 12-4 in the SEC, with only the Patterson finger injury. Very sub-par year, especially with the SOS. But Billy gets a lecture about interacting with the media and gets 2-3 more years if I had any say. (and I don’t – even though Lee and I are UK EE grad chums. Represent.)
by EEWildcat on Mar 19, 2009 11:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Take your pick
I didn’t like the 2006 season, 2007 season, 2008 season, or the 2009 season. Just because I didn’t like it doesn’t mean that the coach did a bad job though.
Im only 25 so my memory doesn’t go that far back, but IMO the past two seasons have been the only I two I can remember wherein there was never more than 3 players on our roster that deserved to be starters for Kentucky – and I think that is something that has been ignored by most people. If you took the starters from this years team, only Meeks, Patterson, and maybe Stevenson would have been starters on any of the previous 10 years’ editions of the CATS
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and
the lack of quality skill players is not BCGs fault – it will be his fault if we have the same problem 2 years from now, but not currently
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, His 2008 Recruits (6 Of Them)
Added only 1 such player (Darius Miller) to the UK roster.
1 of 6 is a poor Hit Ratio in recruiting.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
in some ways. BCG also got Patterson which counts for a whole lot – and Liggins was a 5 star recruit that will be a great starter by his Jr/Sr years. I miss the times when a great recruit like Azubuike knew that he wasn’t going to get much playing time his frosh season b/c he knew that there were a long line of talented Soph/Jr/Sr ahead of him and more ready to play.
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Patterson
He was “inclined” toward UK already. Nice get (save) by Billy G.
it remains to be seen where Liggins will play his Jr/Sr seasons.
The 2009 class has 2 recruits Ready To Go from Day 1.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
we have to wait on Liggins
we also have to wait to see how next year’s recruits work out – Liggins was a “better” recruit than Hood
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not For Mine
I’ll take Hood > Liggina any day.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I pretend to know
but according to the experts, Liggins = 5 star, Hood = 4 star
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
*dont
I dont pretend to know
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Liggins Not a 5 Star
His rating was 4 Star both on Scout and Rivals.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
my bad
I thought Miller was the only player to be down graded toa 4 star, but apparently both Miller and Liggins went from 5 star status to 4 status after signing, I guess we can call that the ‘anti-Duke’ effect
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
anti-Duke effect
and then this year, Orton wasn’t even named McDonald’s All-American – Im sure he would have been had he signed with Duke/UNC/KU or anywhere else for that matter
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 3:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Orton wasn't eligible due to his injury.
He didn’t log enough time during his senior season to be eligible for McDonald’s AA
by BBallSophist on Mar 19, 2009 3:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
cool
I did not know that – some how that fact escaped me. Thanks
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually 1 of 5
not much better, but pilgram was not available. you will have to wait till next year to say 1 of 6…..
by memphis wildcat on Mar 19, 2009 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But He Was Chosen As 6th Recruit
UK had immediate needs and others were available (who coould play).
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I cant imagine
that BCG could have found a player to give Pilgram’s schol to that would have helped this years team very much
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2008 Recruiting
Legion transferred, Crawford and Bradley graduated.
Williams and Jasper transferred. Already 1 open spot.
UK could easily have signed 6 recruits, ready to play, in 2008 class.
Pligrim was a late pick-up due to recruiting misses. Ditto Williams in the summer.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Im not so sure
are you implying that there was a player out there willing to come to UK that was better than Galloway or Harrelson – because anything less than their skill level wouldn’t have helped one iota this year
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 3:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
There Were Players Availble In The Spring Better Than Both
UK was unsuccessful at landing them.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 3:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
If they dont want to come
they cant take up a scholarship
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Understand
But it’s their job to CONVINCE them to want to come to UK.
That’s what recruiting is.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 4:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who Did?
Those 4 years reminded me of the 1960 to 1967 years at UK.
4 (of 8) years without postseason. 5 (of 8) years with fewer than 20 W. Only 5-5 record in NCAA games those 8 years.
Crawford, Bradley, Patterson, Meeks or Jasper, Stevenson = UK worthy starters in 2008.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
maybe
Crawford, Bradley, Patterson were true starters last year. Stevenson as a sophomore wouldn’t have started for most UK teams and Meeks/Jasper were both injured and, if starting, would have been starting out of position – and players starting out of position means that a team is shallow on talent.
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's sweet, Tink.
We need a little more of the touchy-feely take on things around here. Some of us tend to get confused by facts too easily, for instance, like W-L records, years without a final four appearance (or even a regional final), and all of that meaningless nonsense. Next year, let’s not even keep score. Just let the boys play and have fun.
You go, girl!
We're all just a banana peel away from eternity.
by SD_UK_FAN on Mar 19, 2009 9:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pretty rude.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 9:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Be nice.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 7:35 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
sure did. But unfortunately I felt the opposite this season BUT with all that said, if these guys get it together and win the NIT, I would call it a special season.
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 19, 2009 2:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I want to win the NIT
but really, how proud are you of the fact that UK won the ‘76 (?) NIT – if I’m bragging to non-UK fans about the greatness of our program, that is not something I am likely to bring up – our NIT success
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not exactly true
Everytime the UK job is open I’d say there’s a list as long as my arm of coaches interested in the position. But when you narrow the list down to coaches who have the ability and experience needed to coach at UK, yes it gets pretty short. And that’s partly because the A-List coaches are already in a pretty good situation at a good school.
by ben-p on Mar 19, 2009 4:20 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You'd Be Surprised
The UK job is prestigious but not as In Demand as you might think.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 4:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gonna' be hard watching these games today...
Pitino is in..
Tubby is in…
Legion is in…
Texas A&M is in…
Hell, even Mark Coury’s new team is in, Cornell..!
lol.. of course, I kid, but it’s not the same without the CATS…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:18 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
indeed
my excitement level is more like a 1/10 rather than a 10/10 – it will be hard to watch.
On the other hand, I watched an NIT game for the first time in my life this week
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
at least
there wont be the post 1st/2nd round (take your pick) let down to suffer through as there has been the past 3 years, maybe Ill finally enjoy the sweet 16 again this year.
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 12:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not watching
I can’t bring myself to watch it.
by EEWildcat on Mar 19, 2009 11:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
contract
my husband is an attorney in Lex..he says that if UK has paid BCG under this memorandum(sp)..and if both sides have performed under these terms..well… it would be considered a contract for all purposes in the court system…he would have all rights to expect a buyout….
by fanforlife on Mar 19, 2009 12:20 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Correct under
basic tenets of contract law. Offer, acceptance, and partial performance. However, it’s a little more complicated than that, especially if the MOU contains language stating that a K will be signed by some time period (I haven’t taken the time to look at it, but I understand that it does have language like that).
Under that scenario, there are actually 2 K’s at issue – one being the MOU, the second being the K that has not come into existence. UK could argue that Gillispie breached the MOU by not signing a K. If UK can show Gillispie has somehow breached the MOU in some manner, no buyout.
There are other factors that could play a part here too. Yes, the MOU is operational as a binding contract (in my opinion), but whether Gillispie might be entitled to a buyout is a little more complicated.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.
by blbskue on Mar 19, 2009 1:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LSU 9 Butler 0
SEC is gonna’ represent..!!!!
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 12:23 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
maybe
but Miss St probably has the best chance of any SEC team to reach the sweet 16, and that leads me to think that the SEC isn’t gonna represent, as much as I’d love it to
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 12:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'm watching at work
CBS put up that graphic that talked about how the SEC has 3 teams in, and the Big East has 3 one seeds…wow, that’s depressing. I hadn’t really thought about it like that.
by blue kentucky girl on Mar 19, 2009 12:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just realized
this comment of mine is totally not applicable to this thread…sorry! An NCAA tourney open thread might be fun, hint hint ; )
by blue kentucky girl on Mar 19, 2009 12:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great idea!
I actually thought of that, too, but didn’t want to be a complete jerk and bump the most excellent piece Tru put up this morning.
Hmmmm, maybe if we had enough people ask, I would feel compelled………: )
by BigSkyCat on Mar 19, 2009 12:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
take charge
Tru made you an author for a reason………
plus, he’s the kind of guy that will give you time to work with your recruits, er, i mean readers
by memphis wildcat on Mar 19, 2009 12:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL!
Yeah good thing you dont work for “the people.”
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 19, 2009 12:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Do it.
I am swamped at the moment. Great idea.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 19, 2009 1:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never mind.
I saw you made fanpost, and I just promoted it to the front page. ;-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 19, 2009 1:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The other day you asked if we were neighbors.
I live between Sharpe and Palma.
by oldcat70 on Mar 19, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I live in Palma...
yeah, I’d say we’re pretty close to neighbors!
by blue kentucky girl on Mar 19, 2009 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll be glad when a decision is made...
I am looking forward to closure when the following happens:
1. Billy stays, Billy goes. Just say it already.
2. Patterson/Meeks stays or goes.
I still feel like Barnhart should come out and be more supportive of his coach, but that could be the “vote of confidence” thing that could very well come back to bite him in the butt I suppose. He could put a lot of these rumors to bed if he’d just come out and say SOMETHING. But for whatever reason, he’s not doing so.
If I hear one more nitwit say their “inside sources” indicate BG will be fired, I might just lose my lunch.
by uk1982 on Mar 19, 2009 12:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd just like to reach the end of a season
without the whole BBN being in panic over whether our coach is going, staying, or who the replacement might be. Too many years of this and none of it is ever good for the program or my peace of mind. Please let us not be in these shoes again next year!
by StillCatwoman on Mar 19, 2009 12:50 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I disagree
I want the season to end with a UK victory..! And the only way that can happen is if we win the NIT..
N— Need
I— Improvement
T— Teams
That’s all, we just need improvement, and it’s coming next year in Hood & Orton.. IMO
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Mar 19, 2009 2:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I
don’t think she is saying she wants the season to end now……..I think she is saying that she is sick of all this bs
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 19, 2009 2:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am very sick of all this BS
To me the worst part of this season has been all the negative stuff towards some of the players and Coach. I just hated every bit since the start with the OC losses, and then it escalated after the team got into the heat of SEC and we started losing. I am sure there were many fans that did not like Coach from the very beginning and did not like the hire, and probably don’t care for the AD either as he not from Kentucky.
by kykat51 on Mar 19, 2009 2:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
YES!
I certainly want to see us end every season by winning the NCAA tournament. But I wasn’t talking about games, here.
This year’s question is: “Is Billy-Staying or Going?” Last year it wasn’t as bad, but still there was all the concern of whether Billy would go to OSU. And the year before, it was “Which Billy is our Billy?”and we were in angst for weeks about who would replace Tubby.
This kind of stuff isn’t fun or beneficial. It just sucks up a lot of energy and emotion. You think the Dookies ever lose sleep wondering who will be their coach next year? Naaa… and for that, their team and their fan base is stronger.
I agree with KyKat… and TenKen. We have to find a way as the BBN not to be embroiled in this type of bs year after year.
by StillCatwoman on Mar 19, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wins Not the Issue
I would guess that the problem Barnhart (and perhaps Dr. Todd) have with Gillispie at this point is his performance as a “public representative of the university.” That seems to be what the Lexington crowd — on campus and off — seem most perturbed about these days, his “embarrassing” the university.
Few, if any, of us know what kind of working relationship Barnhart and Gillispie have developed over the past two years. I don’t think most of us want Barnhart “meddling” in the basketball program, but we would also expect him to protect the university’s overall reputation.
Dr. Todd and Barnhart spend a significant amount of time developing relationships with wealthy and influential citizens and alumni. To help cultivate those relationships, the university has often hired former basketball players (Terry Mobley, Dickie Parsons, and Mike Pratt come immediately to mind) to work in the development office. Part of building those relationships is listening and evaluating what they hear from potential donors.
In avoiding an ambassador role, Gillispie seems not to have developed strong relationships with influential alumni, donors or former players. Thus, he may not have many friends among those who have the most influence. That gives the AD a very strong hand in the end-of-season meeting.
Despite all the chatter, at this point, it seems to me that UK would have trouble making a convincing case based solely on the failure to be an “ambassador.” Its reputation would be harmed. But if Gillispie decides he doesn’t even want to try to fulfill the ambassador role and walks away — that is another matter. Less harm done.
If Gillispie blatantly rejects the ambassador role, but doesn’t walk away, Barnhart faces a really tough decision.
by Fortunatus on Mar 19, 2009 2:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Easiest Part Of UK Coaching Job
Games, practices, recruiting, etc.
The HARDEST part is the stuff you described.
Few coaches like that. Most don’t expect the enormity of it (at UK) before they arrive.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 2:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Winning is the only part of the job
UK fans may like to think we have altruistic expectations from our coach and that he should be a good person and representative of the state, but all anybody really cares about is winning – win a a national title and nobody really cares if you are the biggest dick in the entire world – nobody! I guarentee that if UK makes the final 4 next year, nobody will be on the message boards complaining that BCG isn’t good with the media. Winning
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 2:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not just winning...
but when you win. If this years wins came at the end rather than the middle there might not be as much outcry. Last years wins down the stretch helped BCG and our getting into the tourney. This year the wins in the middle of the year did nothing but get our hopes up. When the losses started mounting at the end, the pitchforks came out and the tourney went down the tube.
by hoboat33 on Mar 19, 2009 2:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't mean season wins
I mean tournament wins – which we have had 0 recently
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which Tournament?
UK won NCAA game in 2007.
UK won SECT game in 2009.
UK won In-Season tournament (Las Vegas Classic) in November 2008.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the ONLY tournament
at least the only tournament that matters, the one that we aren’t in this year. We won plenty of SEC-T games under Tubby, and while that was nice – it still wasn’t what the fans were looking for. A ‘W’ in the first week of April is worth 100 wins in Nov-Feb
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK Has Only Won 1 Game In April (Ever)
1996 is the one and only.
Avoiding his name, UK won 23 NCAA games under the coach prior to Gillispie and 22 NCAA games under the coach before him. That’s 45 W in NCAA games in 16 years, yet only 1 W in April and only 2 NCAA titles in those 16 years.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 4:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
and without those
2 titles Kentucky wouldn’t be Kentucky – it would be on the same level as KU – and I think they entire country would agree that there is something different about UK as opposed to KU
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 4:30 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
correction
the, not they
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 4:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kansas Has 3 NCAA Titles
Without those 2 titles (1996, 1998) UK wouldbe tied for 2nd but still ahead of KU.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 5:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Results: The Only Measurement
In these days of over analysis, looking for hidden meanings and corners to cut, and all those other warm and fuzzy concepts it is important to consider these words from Dr. Robert Anthony, who along with Tony Robbins, has contributed much to my past successes:
"Waiting is a trap. There will always be reasons to wait. The truth is, there are only two things in life, reasons and results, and reasons simply don’t count."
One of the great things about athletic competition is that it’s quite easy to determine winners from losers, one need only look at the scoreboard at the end (moral victories are just to make losers content and “simply don’t count”). Point is regarding UK BB: results haven’t been nearly good enough for years and someone must be held accountable. That’s what’s being done today, just that there is discord on whom to place the responsibility.
by Wild Weasel on Mar 19, 2009 4:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Only Times That UK Was "Good Enough" For Some
1948-49-51-58-78-96-98. Throw in 1946 when NIT > or = NCAA.
1966 not good enough. 1970. 1975. 1984. 1986. 1993. 1997. 2003.
Just not good enough by the ultimate measure.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 19, 2009 5:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All coaches need goodwill
That’s what public relations, building relationships, being nice to people, looking good in the media, keeping on the good side of your boss is all about. Building goodwill so people will cut you some slack when you’re not winning games. Gillispie seems to have marooned himself on a small island.
by Fortunatus on Mar 19, 2009 5:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
just like he does every year?
This is only his second year.
None pointed enough to indicate that Gillispie is about to be dismissed …or that he will stay.
Gillispie has a six million dollar “buyout” in his contract….maybe arguable with only a MOU. Regardless, it could be negotiated.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 19, 2009 2:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All true ...
… but I will quibble with the last. It isn’t arguable, really, it’s spelled out there – 1.5 million for every month remaining in case of a dismissal without cause.
It could only be negotiated if Gillispie is willing to negotiate. Frankly, under the circumstances, I cannot see a single reason why he should negotiate at all. The University will lose in court, eventually, and Gillispie may even be able to recoup litigation costs. I say that as an strongly held opinion, not as a fact or as a legal authority. But Mitch Barnhart has said very recently in public for disbursement by the media that he is comfortable working under the MOU. That is a representative of the University’s interests, the designated representative in this case, representing the University’s position. It is unambiguous, and would seem to substantiate a claim by Gillispie that ongoing contract negotiations were proceeding at a pace acceptable to the University.
There is very little wiggle room here. In fact, I see none. The University has said repeatedly, through Barnhart, in public, that it was comfortable with the MOU. For them to challenge it would be very, very difficult given those statements.
No doubt UK will want to negotiate, if it comes to that, but Gillispie needn’t. He will get his money, and UK will not go to court. They have no case that I can see.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 19, 2009 5:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
First sentance should read "every year remaining." Sorry.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 19, 2009 5:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
"without cause"
i think could be the legal sticking point. Every contract would have a “conduct unbecoming” section. The MOU could imply the terms of the contract would be upheld. IF Billy G is fired, i don’t think basketball would (or should – after only 2 years) be the reason why. There could be an argument for “conduct unbecoming of the head coach” given his surly interviews and poor conduct regarding the “all access” ESPN program.
by schizm42 on Mar 19, 2009 6:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No.
That argument simply would not fly in court. There is no evidence of such conduct, and being prickly with the media is certainly not a defensible argument.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 7:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Regarding the MOU
I don’t know how I missed this but it is the first thing I have seen regarding the legalese.
I lifted this from Tipton’s basketball notebook of March 15.
Much has been made of Billy Gillispie not signing a contract. Well, he has signed a contract.
The now famous two-page Memorandum of Understanding that he and UK Athletics Director Mitch Barnhart signed on April 6, 2007, serves as a contract. It spells out the basic terms of the deal: seven years, $2.3 million annual salary, potential bonuses of as much as $850,000.
Gillispie’s Tulsa-based lawyer, Stuart Campbell, downplayed the significance of the subsequent failure to agree on a formal contract.
“Attorneys squabbling over legalese,” he called it. “Other than that, it’s not a big deal.”
One point of contention is said to be the terms upon which UK can fire Gillispie and not pay him compensation of $1.5 million per year remaining on the deal with a limit of four years. UK wanted those conditions vague so as to have more leeway to avoid paying Gillispie. Campbell wanted those conditions specifically identified.
If UK fires Gillispie without cause (and losing too often or having a dustup with Jeannine Edwards is not cause, is it?), UK would owe him $6 million. Planning to meet with Gillispie after the season, Barnhart quite sensibly declined to discuss what kind of financial hit that represented.
by kykat51 on Mar 20, 2009 3:57 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
My brief comment was based on assuming (again, if it goes this way and we don’t know) that Gillispie will find it in his best interest to negotiate. You are correct he doesn’t have to do this. However, if he wants to avoid a long protracted legal fight and keep his hands clean, he may find it in his best interest as well. Heck, who knows?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 19, 2009 9:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah.
I mean, you never know. If I were in his shoes, I would go to the mat as a matter of principle, but then again, my financial situation and/or desire to move on might trump my desire to get righteous payback for an unfortunate situation.
You’re right. You never know. In fact, I would say that history suggests negotiations are more likely than litigation.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Add Bozich
to the rumor mongers list…………
“Put me in the camp that now believes there will be a new coach at Kentucky next season. Just a hunch, but a hunch formed from talking to folks close to the heartbeat of the program.”
by slidemank on Mar 19, 2009 3:32 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It may not happen
But the groundwork is being done.
by Fortunatus on Mar 19, 2009 3:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Something tells me all of the "folks" the media is hearing from are unhappy boosters...
…who are unhappy precisely because they haven’t been kept in the loop and don’t know what’s going on either. All of the whispers and rumors seeping from the local and national media is getting old. It’s pretty indicative of the sad state of affairs in American journalism that “legitimate” new sources are now as complicit in rumor mongering as fans on the internet. There are blogs, such as this one, with far more commitment to fairness and accuracy than any of the papers or broadcasters.
If Gillispie is fired, there damn well better be more reasons given than what is known publicly right now. I’ll be thoroughly embarrassed if he’s let go and all we receive is some token “We have decided to go in another direction”.
by BBallSophist on Mar 19, 2009 3:45 PM EDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
and yes. Yes on all points.
waiting on a new banner being raised into the rafters of Rupp..........
by cdnWildcatfan on Mar 19, 2009 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Absolutely, nail on head, yes, yessir
Unhappy booster would love to spread the rumors. And if BCG is let go and someone utters any semblance of your hypothetical quote; I’m getting my pitchfork out of the closet.
by hoboat33 on Mar 19, 2009 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think this is right.
Boosters can make a lot of noise, and apparently nobody in the UKAA is saying a word.
But the boosters are not usually a good source under the circumstances. Barnhart and Todd obviously plan to keep their powder very, very dry.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 19, 2009 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Amen!
I absolutely agree!!! The media only care about publicity and ratings anymore. I mean come on, they can’t report “we don’t know what’s going to happen”. That doesn’t illicit the hot controversy they thrive on.
by slidemank on Mar 19, 2009 3:54 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
BREAKING NEWS ON BILLY G.
I have official word that Billy G is going to return to UK. You heard it hear first!!
(just thought I would start a positive rumor) :)
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 19, 2009 11:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Haha.
Well played. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
True
Sadly, enough every word of what Blujean said earlier is true. The loudest segment of fans is easily riled, ill-informed, and short on sense. If everyone stopped and took a look at what is really being said, and who is saying it, this wouldn’t even be a thread on an otherwise sound and rational blog.
Look, the media, especially in Lexington, is used to being coddled and given the all-access royal treatment when it comes to UK ball. They are obviously not getting this from BCG, and have decided to declare war. This is especially true of John Clay, who, contrary to Tru’s assessment, is a petty hack who trades mainly in innuendo and rumors. This has become even more the case now that he has less “ins” with the athletics department, and therefore has less to report on. Add that to the increasing pressure on newspapers to generate something, anything, of interest in the face of decreasing revenues and increasing online competition, and you’ve got the perfect formula for a one-man pitchforks and torches crew.
Secondly, these “highly placed sources” are likely donors in the upper echelons of giving who are agitating for change because they are impatient with their money, and because they have likely also bought into what John Clay and others are asserting is truth. It only takes a few phone calls to generate enough buzz about something that it creates pressure on those in authority to make it come true. Guaranteed, these “sources” are not within the department, and are not privy to the decision-making process, though they may believe that they are.
The question at this point is whether Mitch Barnhart has the cojones to tell all these constituencies to go F themselves – that BCG is our coach. I like to hope that he does, because if he doesn’t, this program is effing effed for the foreseeable future. I am a fan to the last, bitter moment, and I have suffered from being 3000 miles removed, but not as much as if I had to suffer the roaring of the terrible roars, the gnashing of the teeth, and the rolling of the yellow eyes that is going on in the state right now.
There are a lot of Kentucky fans who need to take a deep breath, walk outside, and find one more thing worth living for. Things are not that bad, and your dinner is still warm.
by The Lexpatriate on Mar 20, 2009 2:17 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Very good comment.
I don’t agree about John Clay, but reasonable people may disagree with me on that.
As I said in the piece, I think Barnhart learned from the Smith thing and has decided at minimum that it is better for the coach to be twisting in the wind than for him to be. In fairness, it’s hard to disagree with that position, tactically. As a human being, though …
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 7:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What could/should barnhart say?
As a human being, though …
I don’t think Barnhart is being a jack*** letting things ride for a few weeks until they can chat after the season ends. What is possibly to gain from making a reinforcing statement of support before that conversation? It seems prudent to me.
by Ontherocks on Mar 20, 2009 8:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I am not a big believer of letting subordinates twist in the wind.
While tactically sound, it is more about self-interest than being a leader. That’s my opinion on the matter.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 9:19 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better To Say Nothing Than Something Poorly Said (Like He Did In 2007)
If Mitch can’t say Billy Is My Coach, Dammit – then it’s better for him to say nothing at all.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 9:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well good grief.
That doesn’t speak well of Gillispie’s ability to lead or to communicate.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 20, 2009 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You Misunderstood
if Mitch can’t say Billy Is My Coach, Period then Mitch should say Nothing.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 1:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Its more than tactically sound
Making a statement of support when in fact that support may not exist would be a lie, and doing it just to stymie rumors is not acting in good faith either. I don’t see that as selfish, I see it as prudence.
by Ontherocks on Mar 20, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, of course that's true.
Barnhart shouldn’t lie.
But if Gillispie winds up staying, it will make me question Barnhart’s leadership. If Gillispie gets fired (or forced to "resign"), then it will make me question his judgment.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 3:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So let me see if I have this straight...
Either outcome leaves you questioning Barnhart. So far he’s the only one acting with class and dignity, and knows when to keep his mouth shut. In your eyes he’s damned if he speaks according to you:
As we all know, when we hear the “vote of confidence” from the AD during stormy times like this, it invariably ratchets up the perception that the coach is about to be fired.
and he’s damned if he doesn’t.
Mitch Barnhart could dismiss all this distracting talk with the wave of his proverbial hand. He has chosen not to do so.
Just what exactly are you calling for the man to do?
by Ontherocks on Mar 20, 2009 4:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
… your observation that Barnhart is acting with class and dignity, in my opinion, is misguided. He is shutting up purely in the name of self-interest, no matter what his ultimate decision is.
If Barnhart is actually thinking about firing Coach Gillispie after only two years, he is, in my judgment, a moron. Even if the buyout weren’t six million dollars, it is a ridiculous notion in my opinion.
Therefore, what he should do is defend the coach he hired, just like he did Rich Brooks, or fire him outright and take the heat. Allowing Gillispie to twist in the wind like this is neither classy nor dignified — it is purely designed to protect himself from the heat and allow it to all fall on the coach.
A “vote of confidence” is not the same thing as saying the coach will be back. One is a courageous act, the other is the act of a waffling AD trying to have it both ways. For an example of the right way vs. the wrong way, just look at Barnhart’s utterances when Brooks and Smith were under fire. While it’s true that circumstances surrounding the football team and basketball team are very different, they are both similar in one respect — you don’t fire coaches after only two years, especially after two winning seasons, even if they are well below expectations.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 21, 2009 10:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He Certainly Handled The Brooks Situation Properly
And he fumbled in 2007 and now again in 2009.
I think Mitch is the M-word you mentioned.
There should be NO discussion of a UK coaching change in 2009. There should be NO CHANGE either.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tru
I don’t think you have ever wrote a sentence that I agree more with…and that is likely the most concerning aspect of this situation.
If he really is letting him twist, that doesn’t speak well of Barnhart. If Barnhart is the leader I think he is…meaning he wouldn’t do that…it doesn’t speak well of Gillispie’s future.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 20, 2009 1:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Who knows?
Not I.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 3:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Too bad ...
… you can’t quote Barnhart on that. Then someone might believe you.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 9:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You don't have to believe me...
and I’m not asking you to, but it’s the real deal and you’ll believe me in the the next month or so.
by crewcat on Mar 20, 2009 9:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We've All Heard The Rumors
IF it happens, it won’t take a month.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not that I don't believe you ...
… it’s that I don’t believe in rumors. And you are not in a position to know.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another possible scenario
Billy and Mitch have already met. Mitch says “Billy this is your chance to show us that we made a good hire”. You have the NIT to do it in. Not wins and losses mind you, but the attitudes in the team and BG’s attitude. Heck Mitch could have even talked to the team and told them that you guys need so show what you have been taught. I think we need to remember that Mitch doesn’t want to look like a fool. He won’t fire a coach after two years with out damning information.If that was the case then I think he would have already fired him. I think we have passed that critical time of “does he stay or does he go”. Mitch will be risking alot to fire him at this point without risking embarrasment to himself and the university. It may be us that he is twisting in the wind. I am pretty sure by this point Billy isn’t twisting in the wind.
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 20, 2009 1:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd be interested in what it is that makes you so sureabout Billy not twisting.
But if your theory is true….boy, that would suck. Is he leaving all the BBN twisting in the wind for some kind of sick kick?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 20, 2009 2:29 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
LOL
You really can put a negative spin on anything.
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 20, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What
has the university or Billy said to make us even think there is going to be a change? I mean last year he never said that he was staying. A coach is not told to say every year pubicly that he is staying.
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 20, 2009 5:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I just calls'em as I sees'em.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 20, 2009 2:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
May I reocommend ...
… The Power of Positive Thinking? :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 20, 2009 3:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
How about my 'book'?
‘Seeing the Real World Thru Crystal Clear Glasses’…. :)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 20, 2009 5:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Okay...now that I got my flippant retort out of the way..
…I do have a positive thought regarding this situation. I firmly believe that whatever the outcome happens to be that the program will be better for it.
Option #1. Billy gets rebooted. I am not sure of course what that involves but maybe some new coaches, maybe some clearer understanding on what he needs to do both on the court and off the court, maybe a house mom for the team. :)
Option #2. Billy agrees to leave under good terms. UK already has someone in mind and has agreed in principle. The administration will not be fooled again. They will get a good coach that can also manage the program and expectations. UK has a way to make this happen without being ‘damaged’.
..and regardless of the option all this baloney, malarky, and rumors will be put to rest and the program can move forward. How’s that?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 20, 2009 5:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy
has handled himself more like Adolph Rupp then any coach we have had since then from the stories I have heard from my Dad. I don’t understand why its a problem when we are losing. Again, if he is treating his players properly then he is fine. There is no reason to push him out the door.
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 20, 2009 8:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All Due Respect To Your Dad
But Coach Rupp was never rude and Billy G has been (on occasion).
It’s fine line but Rupp stayed behind it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 20, 2009 8:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He
has nevered compared the too………….I am comparing the stories about Rupp to what I have seen in Billy. Billy is blunt. He is not rude. There is a difference. He has no tolarance for silliness. There is a difference. I have my issues with the Coach but he puts people in their place just as Rupp did.
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 21, 2009 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Again, All Due Respect
But I actually heard some of those Rupp-isms in the late 60’s and early 70’s.
Billy is short, almost curt with his remarks. Adolph Rupp was many things but never curt.
I see no similarity between Rupp and Gillispie in terms of handling media, etc.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2009 8:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
List
me some rude comments he has made in public………..and not the Jeanine Edwards stuff……..that wasn’t rude. He didn’t bark at her……………I say you ask a stupid question …….you get a stupid answer.
Also, Rupp did not have the media access that Billy has had to go through. When a blogger has a press pass…….that is too much
I don't care who is coach as long as Kentucky is Kentucky!
by tenken on Mar 21, 2009 11:48 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rude To Her And Others
The ESPN “All Access” folks.
Tom Leach.
Et al.
I believe Rupp dealt with plenty of tough media in his day.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2009 12:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think ..
…we have anything like a definitive report he was rude to the ESPN folks. That comment was made unattributed by a writer who clearly had an agenda. I am very skeptical of it.
I would also posit that the “rudeness” to Tom Leach is highly overblown.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 21, 2009 12:23 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's not accurate.
Rupp was most certainly rude, but he was not rude in public.
That’s the difference.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 21, 2009 10:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's What I Meant
Not how I said it.
Pitino was VERY rude in private but never publicly.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 21, 2009 10:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep.
That’s how I remember him as well.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 21, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And why cant one of the options be he stays
and the program is better for it?
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 20, 2009 9:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's what I meant by 'rebooted. In retrospect I should have written a more appropriate word. Maybe 'reset'.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 20, 2009 9:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My bad
When I read it, I read “booted.” “Rebooted” still isnt much better, but at least it means he stays! ;)
I believe in Billy G.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Mar 20, 2009 9:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Insert Kragthorpe for Billy and field for court.
Were those your same feelings during and after UL’s football season last year? Just wondering how you felt with the Cards situation.
Keightley was not the house “mom” of sorts but rather a grandfatherly figure in his last years at UK. We all miss him, but most probably the players and coaches.
by kykat51 on Mar 20, 2009 6:07 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Call me old fashion, but I just don't follow UofL football that closely. I can't truly comment with a lot of knowledge.
But I can tell you this…I believe that Kragthorpe inherited a contaminated team operating under at best loose conditions. Petrino was a snake that has been proven over the past year. Kragthorpe took on a much more difficult situation than Gillispie….and from what I can tell, handles himself better as an ambassador of the program. Also he has received a much higher endorsement from the AD than Billy as well…so he must be doing something right.
In all my years up in Indianapolis, I could never understand why the fans justified the actions of BK. He was such a jerk and a bully. I have started to feel the sameway about the UK situation, to be honest. Again, have started to feel that way…I am not equating Billy with BK yet, but I don’t like where it was heading this year. Sorry.
Football is football, but basketball….ahhhhh…that’s a different story all together.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
by HozeKing on Mar 20, 2009 6:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
… at least I agree with the U of L football part.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 21, 2009 10:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are probably one of a few that I seen say that...
That hold that opinion on what Krag inherited. And I felt the same even though I am not a UL fan. Thank you for your response.
by kykat51 on Mar 20, 2009 7:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Community Guidelines
[UPDATED 3/31/2009]
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2009 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
