How to define the UK team and what it means for the future.
There is a big divide in the question of whether UK is a talented team, a young team or a 2 man team with no other UK worthy talent. I have read comments and blogs that say all the above. My first thought is that this really isn't a "team" but a collection of 2 stars and other players that have some talent and are young in some cases. Potential, potential, potential. My biggest question is can our coach truly make the players play to their potential over the course of their careers. For me the jury is out. I am going to talk about the freshman/newcomers and give my two cents as to how I view them and what I believe they have to offer.
Some will say Deandre Liggins is a great talent but young. Others say he feasted on high school kids that were nowhere near his athletic equal therefore a bit overrated and out of position projecting into college. I don't know if he will ever be the PG that UK is looking for. He can play defense yet on offense he is wildly wild and is inconsistent. He has no jump shot and I seriously doubt that will ever change. He has the abilitly to get alot of assists yet he also has the ability to turn the ball over with great frequency. The eternal optimist will say but he is just a freshman and will get better etc. Maybe but his basketball IQ is my biggest worry because decision making by a point guard is vital to the success of a college team. I have my doubts that he will ever be the player we thought he would be simply because of his decision making. I certainly hope I am wrong.
Harrellson shows promise and then shows nothing. What I do like about him is that he has shown the ability to score inside and out. Unfortunately he shows it in spurts and usually against inferior talent. He has good size yet is an average defender and rebounder. I don't think he has the athleticism to consistently produce for UK. What he needs to learn is how to mazximize what he brings to the table in the 4-12 minutes he may play. He is a sophomore and will probably not see much playing time next season with the addition of Orton, Pilgrim and the probable return of PP (not to metion Stevenson and Stewart). He will forever be an up and down player.
Kevin Galloway seems to me like he has turned a corner recently and has finally adjusted to SEC basketball. The problem is we only have him for one more year. So unless BCG decides to play him over Porter next season then I am not sure how much he will help. I want to see this guy play extended minutes over the course of several games to see if he should be starting over Porter. He runs the break very well, plays pretty good defense and is not afraid to mix it up underneath. He still has turnover issues and that may be why he doesn't play more. The jury is out for me but I see promise.
Darius Miller may be the one freshman/newcomer that can really give UK a huge boost this season and beyond. There really isn't much he can't do. He may not be great in any one area but he is above average in most . I remember a guy named Chuck Hayes that was UK's do it all player with many responsibilites and I believe Miller can have a similar role for UK during his career. He has the size and athleticism to match up with anyone from the 1 to the 4. He can defend, rebound, shoot, handle the ball and make plays on both ends of the court. Darius needs to show this on a more consitent basis but at this time he has no major flaws in either basketball IQ or talent. Of all the newcomers, I think he has the most potential and if coached up correctly will be a good one.
As for next season UK has 4 newcomers coming in that on paper looks like a class that can do some damage. Daniel Orton, Jon Hood, CJ Vilarno and Matthew Pilgrim. There is a nice mix of inside and out, finesse and power. Just to say a few words on each player at first glance.
Daniel Orton a brute force that I hope and pray translates to high D1 basketball.
Jon Hood. Finally a shooter! I just hope that he can do the other things that are a prerequisite in playing for BCG. I still don't know what those are.
CJ Vilarno is a small quick PG. UK could use this kind of PG in the worst way. I truly don't know what to think of him as opinions I have read are all over the place.
Matthew Pilgirm another bruiser that should bring toughness. He is also another playground/practice legend that has so much anticipation from the fans that he better be a stud or watch out.
All in all the current and incoming classes look great on paper. But games aren't played on paper. Not all top recruits pan out for several reasons. BCG was brought in here largely on his ability to recruit and his tireless passion. Now I want to see that he can coach on a high level and truly make his recruits into something special.
If Patterson and Meeks return, UK has the makings and the potential talent available that there should be no excuses for BCG. Yet potential is only good if you have the desire to reach that potential and the right coach to realize that talent. I don't know if BCG can maximize the talent of multiple players at once. UK will have several seniors next season in Porter, Harris, Stevenson, Galloway and Meeks? If BCG holds form, several of these players will start which I think would be disastrous to the team and the psyche of the fan base. The big question moving forward is that if BCG is the coach many think he is? I really believe after the season, coach needs to seriously analyze his basketball philosophies and figure out if there are areas that he could improve, change or tweak. For example, Am I starting the right players? Are the right players getting the right amount of playing time for the team to succeed? Should I think about playing a few different types of defenses from time to time if for no other reason than to give the opponent more to prepare for and adjust to? What am I doing as a coach that will make each player better and be able to translate into game action? In the end, this is the University of Kentucky and not UTEP or Texas A&M. There is a higher standard of performance that is expected and that is just life as UK coach.
Thanks for indulging my long winded and jumbled mess of a Fanpost.
SevenRings and counting!
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Okay...you asked for it....so here's my opinion (assuming anyone cares and I know Howlett doesn't):
1. Liggins is not the answer at point guard. I just don’t see it. I don’t think he is smart enough to take to coaching and he can’t shoot worth a lick. I see him leaving the program at some point.
2. Harrelson is a one-dimensional player…a big man that can shoot. He can’t play defense and is a worse rebounder. That is not all bad, mind you, as long as he is used when there is that one need…a big man that can shoot.
3. Galloway, like you mentioned, is here only another year. Every minute he plays takes away a minute from Liggins….and that isn’t good. Probably has better potential that Liggins but again only one more year…
4. Miller is a big mystery. For starters,….he can not play the 4 spot…way to small, sorry. Certainly has upside but only at the 3 position. Has some sort of confidence issue that he needs to shake big time…has the coach ruined him in the head? What is the deal here? Maybe he needs to just grow up in a big way. He has to since he has a long runway.
5. Orton is a big unknown since he hasn’t played at all this year. From the little I have seen him he seems to be a big lumbering guy that will slow the team down offensively. Does UK want that?
6. Hood will be interesting. I don’t think he plays the type of high school competition that really tells him or us what he will do in college. Maybe this was or is the issue with Miller. Realize how much Miller has struggled this year and multiply that by a few factors and it may give one an idea how Hood will do. Awful skinny….I see him being killed on the defensive end.
7. Vilarno & Pilgrim are one and the same, I think. I believe that both have very limited upside. Sorry. Pilgrim played in Hampton and scored around 10 pts/game….not a whole lot of potential. Just don’t see it. I also see where GJ will be overmatched big time against SEC competition.
In summary, the best hope for the team next year…other than both Meeks & Patterson to return…is realizing the potential of Miller. Maybe Liggins can get his act together and grow as well, but again, I see that as a huge risk. Maybe Hood will eventually help, but I don’t see it the first year. And lastly, maybe Orton will be okay after the injury and be the next Shaq….lots of maybe’s.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
A response.
1. Liggins is a freshman. He will improve in all areas next year. Judge Joe Crawford by his freshman year, did you? How about Nazr Mohammed?
2. Harrellson gets as many rebounds as Patterson per 40 minutes played. So your comment about his rebounding is manifestly wrong. His defensive footwork needs improving, that’s for sure.
3. Galloway doesn’t have more potential than Liggins, in my opinion, but that’s debatable.
4. Miller is a freshman, and he isn’t supposed to play the 4, he is a three and may become a big 2. How is not being able to play the four in any way relevant? Why would you think the coach has “ruined his head,” when it is perfectly clear from interviews that there is nothing wrong with him a little maturity will not cure.
5. Orton is not an unknown. He has been one of the best high school players in the nation for three years, and he had minor knee surgery. He will be an important player for Kentucky, although whether he will be a star remains to be seen — you never know about freshman until they play.
6. Hood is a stud, and anyone who knows anything at all about college basketball will tell you that. Anyone. Did you have anything positive to say about any UK player, or are you just trying to drag everyone down with negativism?
7. More bald, unjustified negativism. Why?
This excess negativism is getting old. I don’t need people coming in here trying to create an aura of futility. It’s one thing to evaluate both the good and the bad of players, but all you have done here is look at any negative thing you can find, and drummed up a good many that simply don’t exist except in your head.
Look, if all you are going to do is bash the coach and the players by having nothing positive to say, just don’t. I welcome commentary from fans of other programs, but I don’t like people constantly running down players, coaches, fans and everybody else.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
How is not being able to play the four in any way relevant?
Because he mentioned it in his post.
Would it be too much to give me a break now and then? In this particular post I mentioned the upside of Miller. And I haven’t bashed Gillispie either. I supposed if I took the route of half the other people here and thought he should be fired after two years, I’d be banned. I suggest you take some time once in awhile and call other people out as well. Sheesh.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
My point is ...
… that every time I turn around, I see “X player isn’t any good” in various forms. If you weren’t bashing Gillsipie, what does “ruined his head” with respect to Miller mean??
I have given you lots of breaks. I haven’t said anything to you in a while, but I get tired of constant negativism. All I have seen from you lately is negative everything. Why? You comment about Miller at best was damnation by the faintest of praise.
And if you took the position that he should be fired right now, you wouldn’t be banned. But that’s irrelevant to my comment. All I’m asking is this — can you find anything positive to say about the team. Even the most negative people in here temper their criticism with some kind of balance. That’s all I’m asking, and not just of you, but everyone. Your post just happened to strike me, and it was because it was one unjustified negative evaluation after another.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Feb 27, 2009 10:21 AM EST up reply actions
My point is..
…I think that criticism on my is somewhat fair. All I ask for is a little balance….I never see you calling anyone out like you do me. That is unfair…and that is what strikes me.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I disagree.
I read every one of your comments, and you get no more heat from me than anyone else who makes comments of the variety you do. If you feel picked on, I’m sorry, but I am not singling you out. I am very, very intolerant of comments that run down future Wildcats before they get here, and players in their freshman year.
If you’ll notice, I did not take umbrage with your comment on Galloway. I don’t agree, but that is certainly a debatable point. Frankly, it was the over-the-top nature of your comment that drew my ire. You found essentially nothing hopeful anywhere in either the current or future Wildcats under discussion. To me, that just looks like senseless negativism, and my perception is that this is just a culmination of a fairly long line of very negative comments.
I am prepared to be convinced otherwise, and I will offer an apology if you can prove my perception unjustified. But if you do, prepare for me to demonstrate my case.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Feb 27, 2009 10:37 AM EST up reply actions
I acknowledged below that I thought this post was admitedly on he negative side.
I think it’s fair to say my assessment on this post is on the negative side…maybe I was having a bad day.
However, here are some positive comments embedded in the post:
He has to since he has a long runway.
realizing the potential of Miller
Sorry if I offended you on my opinions of future players but that was the basis of this post. At your request, I have pointedly withheld any comments close after a loss…you made that clear that offended you. I have watched my ‘clever’ comments…because that has offended you. I just feel I get called out whenever I cross the undefined line…but that’s okay…I am a big boy.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
I call out everyone ...
… when they cross the “undefined” line. You are not exceptional in that regard.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Feb 27, 2009 12:16 PM EST up reply actions
I am done. Said my piece.
Maybe we can admit that we both are a little unbalanced. :)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
With all due respect
and you KNOW how much I respect you, Tru. I really dont find Hoze’s comments much more excessively negative than Forty’s – just about every Coach comment he makes is worded in an excessively negative way. Plus not to mention all the blatant calls for Gillispie’s head as of late. I just think it may be a little unfair to only get down on Hoze for this.
I know its not really any of my business – and I hope you dont get mad, but I couldnt just sit here and say nothing.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Feb 27, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions
Clarification: Plus not to mention all the blatant calls for Gillispie’s head as of late
This is not directed at Forty. I should have broken up those sentences. I am just trying to show that there is ALOT of negativity going on around here these days – some of it quite excessive – and it just seems like Hoze is the only one that gets “called out” on it.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Feb 27, 2009 9:50 AM EST up reply actions
The calls for Gillsipie's head ...
… have all been addressed at length, if not individually. I deleted numerous comments from the game thread and warned people about that, but I will tolerate calls for the coaches head long before I tolerate running players down before they even get here. They do that crap on The Cats Pause, and it’s not happening here. From now on, when I see a post like that, I will delete it and warn the poster.
Forty had a couple of negative comments, but a bunch of positive ones, also. That’s the difference. Unbalanced, repetitive negativism does not foster the environment I want on this blog.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Feb 27, 2009 10:27 AM EST up reply actions
De nada! :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Feb 27, 2009 11:06 AM EST up reply actions
I Did Not Call For Any Coach To Be Replaced
As I said (by way of example), Eddie Sutton cheated and misbehaved (off the court) but Uk gave him 4 years.
Any coach, ANY COACH deserves at least 5 years to produce results.
The lack of EFFORT Wednesday was much more disappointing than the result.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 27, 2009 11:39 AM EST up reply actions
I know Forty.
I corrected that above.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Feb 27, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions
My thoughts in regards to Hoze
Miller has always been a very passive player. Even in high school when he was unqestionably the best player on his team he was very pass oriented and preferred to get his teamates involved. I think his issues at the college level are attributable to his personality and from what I have seen of him I expect him to be a very good college player. He isnt at all suited for the four and will primarily be a small forward.
Jon Hood is a stud simply put. He is skinny but not extremely. He is very long for his size though and I guarentee he will be a good player for UK.
Orton is 6’10 and plays on an AAU team that is very up and down so Im not at all worried about him slowing us down. He is a very good passer which will be good out of the post and a pretty good defender. He is not at all like Shaq.
Hoze I know is just repsonding to the fanpost but have you seen any of these recruits actually play or do you only post your thoughts on them based on the limited info you hear about them?
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
I saw Hood play one game last year...my wife is from Henderson.
I have only seen clips of Orton on YouTube, and I have not seen GJ play at all. I think it’s fair to say my assessment on this post is on the negative side…maybe I was having a bad day.
The main concern I have with Hood is the same thing I saw time and again with players in Indiana that were recruited from ‘outside the city’. They were killer players in high school against the competition they were playing. I think its fair to say that Miller played in a stronger region than what Hood is playing in now….and I think its also fair to say that Miller is struggling somewhat (but I think he still has great upside!). Again, I could be completely wrong, because it is only an opinion.
I see Orton as a bigger risk because of the injury. I have been frustrated with Samuels play this year…and he was rated higher and played in his senior year in high school. I think there is a risk with a knee injury to a big heavy center…I wonder what kind of shape he has allowed himself to fall into while hurt as well. But again, he may come in and be a stud.
I just think UK can do better than Pilgrim or GJ….I just do.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Hood
Ive seen Hood play against the current UK players several times. Granted it was pick up ball but he more than held his own. He may not amaze as a freshman (you cant ever tell when you get them into a system) but he will be a very solid four year piece for the Cats.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Pilgrim
Ive seen him play a couple of times but the jury is still out on whether or not he will even be a rotation piece. I am leery of him transferring in from Hampton and people expecting him to dominate. Physically though he is a an athletic freak.
Orton- I am excited about becuase he wont have to dominate if Pat comes back. Havent seen him play that much but have heard he is a great passer and I sorely think that UK can use a good passer out of the post than we need another post scorer.
GJ-I have hopes that he will be a good piece and am willing to give G the benefit of the doubt until I see him. He cant make the point guard situatinon any worse than it is now IMO.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Much better.
Much.
I don’t agree with much of what you said, but this is absolutely the kind of reasoned, well-defended points I want to see.
Good job.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Feb 27, 2009 10:39 AM EST up reply actions
Oh...one more thought in regards to Miller.
Excellent point on how he plays. I think you are right on. Maybe it’s not his confidence at all, as you say. Regardless, I do think he can deliver at a much higher level and at a more consistent level than he has been.
Hey, I will always find myself rooting much more for any Kentucky kid no matter where they play. I even rooted for that power forward from Male back in the day….even though he made a mistake by not going to UofL. :)
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Yes I know what they Say About Opinions
So here is mine:
1) Off the top of my head, good point guards at Ky that “could not” shoot-
———Wayne Turner, Rajon Rondo, Cliff Hawkins…
2) Harrelson is the best rebounder on the team per minutes played but is admittedly a role player
3) Galloway could easily fill the need at point if Coach decides to move Liggins to Point Forward. Point guard help is on the way.
4) Miller is not a mystery but as-of-yet-not-reached-his-potential star. A mystery would indicate we do not know what he is capable of. We know but he has not brought it consistently….YET
5) See Tru’s Statement. I will, however, go out on a limb and say he will be a star.
6) Hood has me so stoked I can’t wait!
7) Pilgram is an NBA prospect that has underperformed. He and Stevenson would add depth. Stewart could move to the 3 where I think he fits.
8) Why leave out Meeks? He is a star and if he returns next year would be a front-runner for player of the year candidate.
9) Patterson needs Ky one more year. Ky needs Patterson one more year more.
In many ways, if Meeks and Patterson return certainly, next year will be a good test for Coach G. (Since we are talking about recruits here I assume we are looking forward) IMO he will have the players that could move the program. The only unknown would be how those guys fit as a unit. That’s were coach comes in.
My Input (Based On Last Night Only)
Liggins has PG skills but no idea how to use them to his advantage.
Harrellson is overmatched by SEC caliber post players. Sub, 10-15 minutes (tops).
Galloway not there last night. But he hasn’t played enough to adjust to SEC caliber play.
Miller is like a deer in your headlights. Plays “scared” and doesn’t use his skills well.
Orton (if healthy) will start at C and see 25-30 minutes PT.
Hood will need to add strength to compete in SEC. More likely a star by junior year.
If Vilarino can dribble, run fast, and defend a quick PG, he plays right away.
Pilgrim, not sure. Lots of practice All-Americans over the years at UK.
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 26, 2009 7:58 PM EST reply actions
LOL !!!!
Vilarino can dribble, run fast, and defend a quick PG, he plays right away.
I know it wasnt a joke but it was funny.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Position
Everyone always seems to say that we will be great next year with the new recruits and if Jodie and Pat come back. While Hood would be a backup to Jodie (getting what, 4 minutes a game due to how much Jodie plays), how do you mesh Pat and Orton?
I suppose Pat goes to the 4 and Orton would be the 5, but that really looks like a slow team that has the middle clogged up on offense. It would definately be an improvement over our current number 4, but I just wonder if the two of them would be compatible together. It seems obvious that Orton was recruited with the expectation of Pat being gone.
My point about Darious Miller being able to play the 1 thru 4 position....
I originally lableled him as a 1 thru 3 but added the 4 position after reviewing the post. There is no doubt in my mind he is a 3,. What I was thinking and didnt elaborate on is that if needed against certain competition he has the ability to all play those positions. He will never be playing the 1 or the 4 as his normal position but I do think he brings the ball up the floor well as a 1 and can guard some 4’s whenever the situation should demand it. Just wanted to calrify that comment.
Thanks for all the responses and opinions.
Slower Traffic Keep Right!
I disagree. Pilgrim will give UK the big strong SEC PF/C that every team has had except UK
for years. I love Bobby Perry (6’8" 215 lbs), but oh do I remember those stitches. His 10 FT inspired me, but he gave up so much strength underneath. Sound familiar. Next year, I expect te see a leaner Orton (250 lb.) and a bigger Patterson (240 lbs.) The word on Orton is that he runns the floor well for a big man. Then Pilgrim comes in as a sub to rest either of the big men like Richards did for Florida.
by Blueobsessed on Feb 28, 2009 8:55 PM EST up reply actions
High school phenoms
I remember the hoopla whipped into a frenzy by Lexington Herald sports writer Billy Thompson in 1956 about King Kelly Coleman from tiny Wayland High School coming to the Sweet Sixteen. Coleman set records (one being 56 points, as I recall); he was a big guard with a great jump shot and a tremendous nose for the ball. He rebounded half his missed shots in the game I saw him play. Public pressure was put on Rupp, and Rupp signed him. He lasted about a week on UK’s campus, transferred to Eastern and was gone before the season started.
With that experience and various others in subsequent years, I take with a teacup of salt speculation about any impact that any freshman or transfer is going to have the first year. Many of Joe Hall’s transfers — if my vague memory is even partially correct — were rural or small town Kentucky phenoms who were not skilled or gifted enough to contribute much. Back then, even more so than now, there was a lot of fan pressure for UK to sign Kentucky players. All past coaches have succumbed — even though few of those signees were really productive (the biggest exception of course being the Unforgettables who Pitino inherited).
Not getting excited about incoming players is my way of keeping my hopes from being crushed by reality. I hope it is not regarded as negativism.
I am happy if half our signees turn out to be productive team players by their junior year, and I am greatly pleased when a Patrick Patterson comes along.
Class Of 1956
Kelly Coleman, Jerry West, Oscar Robertson (to name a few).
FWIW Coleman never signed with UK. He signed with West Virginia. UK reported WVU to the NCAA. Coleman wound up at Kentucky Wesleyan.
Hall’s transfers:
1972 – David Miller from Carroll County KY & Roger Wood from Wheeling IL.
1973 – Robert Mayhall from Middlesboro KY; Ernie Whitus from Louisville Doss & Gary Utz from North harrison IN.
1974 – Danny Hall from Betsy Layne KY.
1975 – Bill Willoughby from Englewood NJ; Pat Foschi from Virgina MN & Bob Fowler from Cherry Hill MI.
1976 – Tim Stephens from McCreary County KY.
1977 – Scott Courts from Arvada CO & Chuck Aleksinas from Wamogo CT.
1978 – Dwight Anderston from Dayton OH & Clarence Tillman from West Philadelphia PA.
So 5 were Kentuckians. The rest were not
by FortyYearCatFan on Feb 27, 2009 3:20 PM EST up reply actions

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