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For those wondering about the Hodge ejection

For those wondering about the determination that Walter Hodge should have been ejected list night, here is the rule:

Rule 4, Sect. 26, Art. 7. When during the course of play, an individual strikes an opponent with the hand, elbow, arm, foot, knee or leg in a non-confrontational manner but the act is excessive or severe, it shall be ruled as a flagrant foul and not a fighting action. When a defined body part is used to strike an opponent but the contact is not severe or excessive, a judgment shall be made by the official as to whether the contact is intentional.

This is why the officials "had no choice" but to call a flagrant technical foul.  You will note that there is no "intent" element to the offense -- this foul apparently must be called even on accidental contact if it is "severe or excessive," regardless of intent.  My suspicion here is that the officials may have begged off if it was clearly and incontrovertibly accidental, but the replay you can see here does not allow for any such determination.  In other words, it looks as likely to have been intentional as accidental.

I think that's why the officials had no real choice in the matter.  It was clearly severe and excessive, and since intent is not an element of the offense (unless the contact is not severe or excessive) but the body part in question (i.e. Hodge's foot) is an element, it had to be called by rule.

A dead-ball flagrant foul is a technical foul under Rule 10, Section 3, "Player/Substitute Technical Fouls," Article 16:

Art. 16. A player flagrantly or excessively contacting an opponent while the ball is dead.

PENALTY: (Arts. 13 thru 17) Two free throws shall be awarded to any player on the offended team, unless offsetting. Flagrant technical fouls; apply toward the team-foul total and the offender(s) is ejected. For any single flagrant technical foul, the ball shall be awarded to the offended team at a designated spot at the division line on either side of the playing court. For double or offsetting flagrant fouls, no free throws shall be awarded and play shall resume at the point of interruption. Any player(s) who actively participates in a fight shall be ejected and subject to suspension (See Appendix I).

A nice bit of officiating there, even if I think the rule should have an element of intent or negligence.  Punishing accidental contact seems ridiculous to me.  It also seems clear from Billy Donovan's relatively mild reaction to the event that he knew the rule, and had no basis for a vehment objection.  The rule is the rule.  I think it is not well formed, but it is the rule.

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Fallout from the Houston-Arizona game

IMHO

I would imagine that the refs are making it a point of emphasis after that fiasco with Chase Budinger’s face.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Feb 11, 2009 8:22 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

YouTube, ESPN, etc. Fallout

I agree with chirop1 regarding the relationship between this incident and the Aubrey Coleman-Chase Budinger dustup. Not only in the officials’ quick and accurate reaction but further the likelihood that Hodge’s actions were of the copycat variety, thus reflecting the contagious nature of actions caught on video by today’s technology and then continuously reviewed. There are innumerable examples of such actions becoming popular among the digital generation. I expect to see more unless coaches take stern measures to forestall it.

by Wild Weasel on Feb 11, 2009 1:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can't say

He’s never done that kind of thing before so it seems unlike him. But it really is impossible to tell if he meant to do it, or not. The way he shifts his weight to his non weight-bearing foot midstride makes it seem more intentional, but his reaction directly thereafter seems like it’d be hard to ‘fake’ as he seemed genuinely surprised that he stepped on Stevenson’s arm.

Guess we’ll never know.

Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com

by Gatorpilot on Feb 11, 2009 8:53 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Just My Opinion

but I think that Hodge stepped on him on purpose. I mean watching the replay Hodge took about three steps and appeared to be looking down. I do think that as soon as he did it he regretted it, but I do not think it was an accident. I just dont.

by kentuckygirl0724 on Feb 11, 2009 8:56 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I agree with you

I didn’t see it as an accident. I’m just glad Stevenson didn’t get seriously hurt. He has some pretty frail arms and it wouldn’t take much.

GBB!!!

by OGETARTS on Feb 11, 2009 10:03 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Im with kygirl0724

I agree with you.

It was a very nice catch by the officials IMO. Twenty thousand people missed it but they caught it .

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Feb 11, 2009 9:04 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Porter takes the credit

I thought Porter took credit for pointing it out to the officials. He talked about it in the post game interview

by StillCatwoman on Feb 11, 2009 9:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yes, you're right

Porter did say something to the officials about it and I’m glad he did.

GBB!!!

by OGETARTS on Feb 11, 2009 9:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I won't argue it...

… because I don’t know. Maybe.

Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com

by Gatorpilot on Feb 11, 2009 9:20 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Replay...

I watched the replay many times. You can EASILY tell he was looking down to make sure he got Stevenson’s arm then looked “Oh So Sorry” right after because he knew he was caught. I’ve seen my kid look sorry when reaching for cookies when he wasn’t supposed to…
Hope the SEC realizes this punk move and suspends him another game or 2!

by CatsFan03 on Feb 11, 2009 9:31 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't see that happening.

It did look like he was looking at the floor for at least 2 steps before it happened. I’ve also tripped over my coffee table in my living room while staring right at it and knowing it was there. He was looking down, but his mind could have been elsewhere.

Or it could have been 100% intentional. I think the refs made the right call, and he should have been ejected. I don’t think it’s egregious enough to suspend him for another game, and I don’t see that happening.

I can’t remember the game, but there was a game a few weeks ago where an player holding the ball pivoted and caught the defender in the face with an elbow. It was clearly unintentional, but the contact was so extreme that a flagrant was called.

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 9:46 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

michigan game

i believe you’re thinking of the manny harris of the michigan wolverines. he got a rebound and then caught an opponent with an elbow, which was completely unintentional. he was ejected but it had more to do with his teammate novak (blanking on a first name). previously in their game against wisconsin, he purposely elbowed PJ Hill in the face waiting for a rebound as a free throw was being shot.

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Feb 11, 2009 10:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Duke Game

Hard to tell if it was intentional, but the first thing that popped in my mind was where was this rule in the 92 Duke game?

by bjk on Feb 11, 2009 10:26 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

It wasn't in the books

at the time.

I vaguely remember they added those stricter rules a few years ago (late 90s or early 00s) when there was an increase in fighting / rough play in the NBA – as a preventative measure.

by schizm42 on Feb 11, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The real key words are 'flagrantly or excessively'

…which means there is some judgement or leeway allowed by the officials. So I think that the officials had a lot of choice in the matter. You can argue whether the call was right or not…but you can’t make the case that there was no choice in the matter.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 11, 2009 10:34 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

I don't think I said that.

But the contact was clearly excessive. Whether it was flagrant or not, I won’t attempt to judge, but it didn’t have to be.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Feb 11, 2009 11:14 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And ...

… officials always have the discretion to determine whether contact meets those definitions. It seems that there can almost be no reasonable discussion, though, about whether or not it was “excessive,” it clearly was. In my judgment book, that left them no real discretion. The definition of “flagrant” includes the concepts of outrageousness and bad. I think there is plenty of doubt as to whether the contact met the definition of “flagrant.”

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Feb 11, 2009 11:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Well you did say this...

This is why the officials “had no choice” but to call a flagrant technical foul.

I guess the only issue I had with the call…and again, my daggone satellite foulded up my Tivo recording so I didn’t see it live…was that they went to the monitor to view the infraction. I think that is somewhat concerning. I mean at what point do you draw the line on review? What keeps a whiner from running down the court and crying; ‘look at the tape, he elbowed me’? I also wonder if the officials would have reviewed that play in Gainsville?

Again, I may be all wrong here since I didn’t see it live.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 11, 2009 11:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They reviewed because it was a deadball situation.

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 11:40 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yea, so? I don't get it.

Again, at what point does one cross the threshold where you convince the official to look at the tape? Is it the degree of the coaches shouting? Is it the level of the fans yelling? I mean what does it take for the official to say…hey, we better look at the tape. How does one convince the refs to review a play even during a dead ball?

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 11, 2009 11:48 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Possibly flagrant fouls ...

… are reviewable. Porter informed the officials of the incident.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Feb 11, 2009 12:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Section 13. Games with Replay/Television Equipment

Art 2. Officials may use such available equipment only in the following situations:

d. (Men) A determination if a flagrant foul occurred. When it is determined that a flagrant foul was not committed, no other penalty may be assessed.

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 2:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

So, yes

the fact that it was a dead ball had nothing to do with it. Porter brought it to the officals’ attention that the foul occurred, and unter Section 13(2)(d), the officals have the authority to consult the replay equipment.

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

When does a ref decide

to review whether a shot was a three or a two?

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 1:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rule 2, Section 13(2)(b)(1) gives them this authority

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 2:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm not saying they don't have the authority...

…and I don’t mean to make this a FL v. UK thing. I am just wondering if the officials would have decided to review the play if the game was in Gainsville. In otherwords, to make it more general, are referees more apt to listen to a home team player, or the home team crowd, or the home team coach if they are asked to review. I am thinking yes.

I mean at what point does a ref say, okay let’s stop the game for a couple of minutes and review, instead of saying, shut up and play? At least the NFL has limits on the number of plays it will review on a coaches request. Again, just wondering.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 11, 2009 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think you're trying to see a conspiracy where none exists

I fully believe they would have reviewed this in Gainesville. Why wouldn’t they – if there’s nothing there, the monitor would show it, and everyone moves on.

C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!

by NYCCats on Feb 11, 2009 3:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry you are missing my point...I can't make it any more clear.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 11, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Fine, if you want to be pedantic

1. They would have reviewed the play in Gainesville

2. For the purposes of a flagrant foul (or 2 vs 3), they are no more apt to listed to a home crowd / player / coach, etc. than a road player / coach. If they feel there is a credible question, they will look. If not, they won’t.

3. See #2. If they think there is a possibility that something is there, they will review. If they think there was not (i.e., they saw it perfectly clearly and they think the player is just whining) they will not.

That work for you? Or am I missing whatever brilliant, subtle point you are trying to tease out?

C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!

by NYCCats on Feb 11, 2009 4:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Pedantic? Maybe, But

From what I’ve read of HozeKing I would suggest perhaps petulant. In fact Lord Byron may have had HozeKing in mind:

"Like other parties of the kind, it was first silent, then talky, then argumentative, then disputatious, then unintelligible, then altogether, then inarticulate, and then drunk. When we had reached the last step of this glorious ladder, it was difficult"

by Wild Weasel on Feb 11, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Haha.

Hoze has gotten progressively more aggressive on this site over the past few weeks . . . someone new logging on to your account, Hoze?

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 4:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

okay...I'll admit to drunk on a rare occasion.

Interesting how some can be simultaneously cocky & sensitive based on a solitary victory. :)

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 11, 2009 5:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Who is being cocky or sensitive?

Yeah, we feel good after this victory. We should. No one is being cocky or sensitive, but I don’t get why you come over here and intentionally try to ruffle our feathers about that call. Tru has already had to chastise you a few times about provoking us after losses, and now you’re doing the same thing after we win.

I recall when you first started posting on this site, you were reasonable, kind, and respectful to the UK fans. I’m sorry, but you haven’t been that way of late. We’re not sensitive, but if we wanted to deal with UofL fans provoking us after wins AND losses, we’d go post at the Courier Journal. Debate is fine, and the conversation here and at the FanPost about the short PG recruit have both devolved, and that’s not all your fault, but you have been provocational. Let us heal from our losses and celebrate our victories. There was no need for you to show up the morning after one of our biggest (and definitely the most needed) victory of the season and post, “You can argue whether the call was right or not…but you can’t make the case that there was no choice in the matter.”

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 6:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

At the least - you could have started with a

“congrats Cats fans on such a hard won victory. I’m sure you guys feel pretty good right now, and you deserve it. Now, about that call. . .”

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 6:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For your consideration:

This is what I posted yesterday morning on the post mortem:

Great win by the Cats last night.
Not a pretty scene in the first half, albeit. Unbelievably, I couldn’t watch the second half so I Tivo’d it, but the satelite went out. I did see the replay of Meeks last shot and that kid has some backbone. A couple of questions that bare asking:

1. What is wrong with PPat? He is just not the same player. I know about the thumb but it has to be more. I don’t know what the deal is.
2. What does this mean for the player rotation now? With Galloway’s play, how does this affect Liggins? How can they get Harrelson on the floor more? I juust don’t know why they don’t play him more, put him on the high post, and get PPat the ball on the low post. Seems simple to me.
3. I did’t realize that Florida was such a one-man band. It’s no wonder they dropped out of sight in the rankings.

I really think this puts UK back in the drivers seat with beating Tennessee at their place. Tough games to be sure coming up, but they did what they had to do last night.

Finally, if one finds in necessary to be so judgemental, it’s best to have your facts straight.

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 12, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You're right. That was an appreciated post

and one at least I personally responded to in a positive manner.

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 12, 2009 10:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Cool

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 12, 2009 11:21 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I should add that I doubt any regular

readers of ASOB go over to the UofL sites and criticize their recruits, like you did with Vilarino.

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 6:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I routinely go to Card Chronicle

And question the validity of their parentage!

;-)

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Feb 11, 2009 6:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Heh.

Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.

by blbskue on Feb 11, 2009 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

We're all big boys (and girls) here

I’ve got no problem with HK coming over here and posting, even if some of his posts irritate me. He provides a service (keeping us in check) – he’s like our resident devil’s advocate.

If HK can deal with getting called petulant, pedantic, provocative (and any other word (or non-word) that begins with "p"), I can deal with his clearly illogical love for all things red.

Looking forward to the next rumble. . .

C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!

by NYCCats on Feb 12, 2009 8:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Completely different.

The ref is reviewing something he WITNESSED. He wants to get it right. From my understanding, the refs didn’t see the incident at all. Isn’t that right?

'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'

by HozeKing on Feb 11, 2009 3:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think that is right

As I watched it, it seems pretty clear that the ref saw something, he just didn’t know what as he was probably screened – if you watch the replay they come running in almost immediately. Porter may have explained what happened (which necessitated a review), but I don’t think the refs would have missed it entirely in any case.

C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!

by NYCCats on Feb 11, 2009 3:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

He definitely heard something ...

… namely, Stevenson go “Owww, damn!” or some such. He was standing right beside Hodge. Stevenson got up quick, and not happy.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Feb 11, 2009 4:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Frankly, I'm astonished they called it correctly

It was a good catch, but when has the rulebook ever been a hindrance to getting a call wrong for SEC officials? I’m thinking specifically of the Jasper Intentional foul against Tennessee last year.

Intentional or Unintentional, it’s unfortunate that it happened and Hodge was thrown out, but clearly it was the correct call.

...when you let other people tell you what success is, you already have no chance of ever finding it. - Doug Glanville

by JLeverenz on Feb 11, 2009 10:50 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Hodge has always been a firecracker...

My mind is barely recalling another incident with him down here in Nashville two years ago I believe. Vandy was playing Florida very close at Memorial and I do not remember the final outcome, but I remember a pretty big fight breaking out with guess who at the center of it. When I saw that last night, it instantly brought back that memory and any feeling of compassion toward him went right out the window. Especially with his,“Come on man, youu know you’re alright,” look of half sincerity and very public handshake with Perry after PS got off the ground. Perry was a better man than I would have been and shook his hand, I may have been following him out the tunnel.

I need a Sea of Blue because I am surrounded by Tennessee orange!

by sleepytimetea on Feb 11, 2009 11:29 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Anybody see the Duke/UNC game tonight?

Somebody explain the difference in the call on Singler when he elbowed Hansbrough in the head… shouldn’t he have been ejected same as Hodge? or is that just another call they didn’t want to make in Cameron?

by cthom on Feb 11, 2009 11:15 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Not me. No power.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Feb 12, 2009 6:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Dead Ball

I believe the difference to be that the Singler elbow came in live play whereas Hodge’s was after play was over.

by Wild Weasel on Feb 11, 2009 11:33 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Not as far as I can see.

Apparently, they didn’t deem the contact “flagrant” or “severe or extreme.” Either of those two determinations would have mandated an ejection from the game. Excessive contact in a live ball situation carries the same penalty as during a dead ball. The difference is, contact is generally allowed during live ball situations and generally forbidden during dead ball situations, so making a determination as to the nature of the contact is probably more “cut and dried.” Most likely, rule 9, Sect. 13 Art. 3 was applied:

Art. 3. Action of arm(s) and elbow(s) resulting from total body movement as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control shall not be considered excessive.

If the contact was not severe or excessive, an ejection would not be the right call. Since I didn’t see it, I can’t comment on the quality of the officiating, though.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Feb 12, 2009 6:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh OK

I was thinking that the whistle blew during a tie up and Singler pulled the ball away and swung his elbow. Looked pretty flagrant to me, but if there was no stoppage of play, that makes sense.

by cthom on Feb 11, 2009 11:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

swing away

Elbow comes a fraction of a second after the whistle is blown, I think. In my opinion, Singler would not have taken his hand off a loose ball until he heard the whistle. After the whistle, he’s free to swing away.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUFeSOjYfdU

noted: Billy D took an ejection much more kindly than CoachK took this call.

by Gobe Igbloo on Feb 13, 2009 1:47 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Duke

Everything I ever see on Duke makes me hate them more, Kyle Singler is a perfect fit at Duke – that’s all I can really say about that.

by kentuckygirl0724 on Feb 13, 2009 9:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

If flagrant or severe contact was made ...

… after the whistle, it would have been a dead-ball flagrant technical foul and an automatic ejection.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Feb 13, 2009 4:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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