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Upon Further Review . . .

[Promoted from the FanPosts.  Great stuff in here -- ed.]


I just took a look at the last six minutes or so of yesterday's game against UNC, and it was like a Clint Eastwood movie:  we had the Good, Bad, and Ugly side of this team.

First, the Good:  We won, and our two freshman guards went 7-8 from the free throw line in the last two and a half minutes, Bledsoe's miss on the second of a 1+1 being the only miss.  Also, we kept fighting for rebounds and got several good calls.  Wall's strip/steal was also brilliant as was his ball-handling for the most part.

Now, the Bad: On successive trips down the floor, Wall tried to take over the game, resulting in two turnovers.  First was an ill-advised shot in the lane that got blocked, resulting in a UNC FG.  The second was the charge, also in the lane.  To be fair, he did it on the third trip, too, and got a tripping foul called which resulted in free throws for us.  Also bad was the possession in which we missed two consecutive 3-pointers by Miller and Bledsoe.  Despite the nice percentage we're shooting from beyond the arc, this was one of our worries at the beginning of the year, and, while both were open, squared-up shots, both were missed. 

Still in the Bad category, we got exactly one field goal in the last five minutes (Bledsoe's in-bounds reverse layup), and that won't cut it.  And we were darned lucky that Bledsoe's little ill-advised jump-hook in the lane was knocked out by a Tarheel.

And the Ugly: Our big players were non-existent on offense.  For whatever reason, Patterson seldom touched the ball in crunch time, and when he did, it was way out on the floor.  We depended entirely on our guards and were lucky they got it done.  We also threw the ball around like we didn't want it, Bledsoe's baseline drive-kickout over Wall's head being the ugliest.  Where were the adjustments when UNC was coming back?  Coach Rupp used to say that the coaches play the first three minutes of the second half.  Based on that, I'm not sure Ol' Roy didn't beat Coach Cal a little yesterday.

All in all, I'm incredibly glad to get the win.  It makes 1996, puts us five ahead of UNC, and resulted in THE CALL being made from my Tarheel son to me instead of from me to him. 

But despite all the encouraging signs, I'm still not comfortable with this team.  We didn't react well either to Wall's absence or to UNC's picking up the defensive pressure in the second half.  We took our foot off their throats when we had them down.  Many of these issues are signs of immaturity, so I hope we outgrow them.  But I'm still not comfortable.

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Understood...

Much of the pedal-to-the-metal mentality you are looking for right now is Junior and Senior Leadership-driven and that’s something we are lacking! Yeah, Ramon & Perry are our Seniors, but Seniors generally start in most systems. Since they don’t, it’s only natural that we don’t have the leadership we need to make that deep run in March. Not saying it won’t develop someplace, but agree with you that we don’t have it right now…

Cal wants PPat to be the Man, but I don’t think that’s a role he’s comfortable with… Maybe it’s a personality thing?? He should have parked that big body in the post the last 5 of the game and made it his own!!

Here’s something to think about too… PPat has never had anyone on the team to mentor him in the leadership role! You could argue that Jodie was, but I think of him and PPat as more partners-in-crime than in a leader-follower role. I think that like Wall has to learn to slow down, Bledsoe has to learn that he’s not Wall, Cuz has to learn to control his emotions, PPat has to learn to be a leader…

Now that we’ve seen this, and don’t think Cal won’t talk to him about it, let’s have this discussion a month from now and see where we’re at… YMMV

If your wings don't sweep....

by EagleTDL on Dec 6, 2009 9:57 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I searched and searched for PPat's comments

before the UNC game. I came up with absolutely nothing. I cannot figure out why he didn’t have some sort of statement about playing the Tar Heels. It would seem to me that the ‘chosen leader’ should have made a statement before a game like that. Was there enough hype about Roy dissing Wall in recruiting or what?

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 7, 2009 11:25 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You know,

I think that is an excellent point and something I thought about, too.

If you search the usual places (Leach’s site, Sidelines, etc) there were several quotes from players such as Wall and Cousins before the UNC game, but I didn’t hear any from Patrick, either, and it’s curious.

Is it because Wall and Cousins are young and are more likely to give juicy and controversial bits of info and that makes them the obvious choices to get a microphone stuck in their faces whereas Patrick is beyond that at this point in his collegiate experience and no one bothers to try and get his thoughts? Or is it because Patrick just didn’t have anything to say and like Eagle said, he just isn’t comfortable in that leadership role and doesn’t like to be confronted? Hmmm….

by BigSkyCat on Dec 7, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Puzzling for sure,

as I thought beating UNC was one of PPat’s reasons for returning to UK. I surely thought he would have had plenty to say beforehand. He did comment after the game. Hmmm, moment for me too. :-)

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 7, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good points

from both the Ladies… Maybe PPat lets his play do the talking?? Maybe Cal didn’t want him to say anything??

If your wings don't sweep....

by EagleTDL on Dec 7, 2009 12:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Smart veteran players let their

play do the talking. It is never wise to give your opponent locker room material.

by Grasslands1 on Dec 8, 2009 12:39 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Patterson is

still growing into the leadership role. Something he has realized he needs to do but is still working on.

by hoboat33 on Dec 7, 2009 1:19 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Look outside

and you will see that the sky isn’t falling. We are 8 games into the season with the players getting very little practice time at this point. We are 8 and 0 and probably shouldn’t be. I am very comfortable with the progress of these young players and can see how good they are going to be in a few more weeks. Too many UK fans wallow in anxiety needlessly. The glass is half full and will be overflowing by March.

by kywineman on Dec 6, 2009 10:53 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

wineman, I'm not that bad, now.

I didn’t say I was displeased, just that I wasn’t comfortable. It’s kinda like golf in that you’ve got to have some “go to” shots when the train starts to go off the track. I don’t see that with this team yet. True enough, the two freshman guards, Wall in particular with his moves and Bledsoe with apparently steely nerves at the line, provided the win, but I worry that against the next good team (UConn?), that won’t be enough.

I guess what I’m saying is that there isn’t a level of predictability the fans can depend on yet. And the key word is “yet”. If they keep improving like they have, a deep run is very likely, and I’ll be the first to say I’m comfortable.

I’ve been watching and listening to UK basketball since about 1954 or so and most of our really good teams have had strengths you could hang your hat on from game to game. This team hasn’t developed that yet. They’re a little loosey-goosey still. But, the curve they’re on is definitely upward, whereas just less than a year ago, the bottom fell out.

I’m ecstatic. See me smile? :-))))))))

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you are just

adding a bit of “ice” to the blue kool-aid that we are all enjoying right now, right? As long as you are smiling when you are doing it, I think a little “ice” is just fine. : )

by BigSkyCat on Dec 7, 2009 3:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Keep smiling, you will

worry a lot less, just ask Alfred E. Newman (sp). One of my earliest memories is sitting on my dad’s knee in front of one of those TV’s with the small round screen and watching UK win a national title. My sister was on the other knee and after a particularly great play my dad jumped up screaming and kids rolled everywhere. I understand your looking for the security of that strength you can count on but I don’t remember us having this young a team playing at this level this early in the season. But then I don’t remember yesterday either :)

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2009 5:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was always taught

to take the good with the bad. But what do we do about the ugly? Pray harder maybe? If it would help, I’m all for it. :-)

I think we will continue to see improvement in our guys though. Coach Cal may remember he forgot to tell them something, like he did with Miller’s and Cousins’ shooting forms.

Great post oldcat’69.

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 7, 2009 11:20 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Cats Went 5-5 Versus UNC In 2000's Decade

UK was a collective 4-13 vs UNC in 1960’s – 70’s – 80’s – 90’s.

by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 7, 2009 11:26 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Oldcat

I could not agree with you more. I know where most of our younger members are coming from but, Very few have been watching the cats as long as we have. I thought “Ole Roy” out coached Cal. We won a game that we should have blown out. I’m hoping that we don’t keep trying to win riding the “best” freshman to ever wear the blue and white. He can have a bad game or heaven forbid get hurt. Most of the game the guard were our first option. Cuz is way to immature at this point but Paterson and Orton have to be included. Go Big Blue!

Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !

by oldcat70 on Dec 7, 2009 4:11 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I have to

agree about Roy outcoaching Cal. It was particularly clever how he let us get that 28 to 2 run so that we would go to sleep in the 2nd half. If it hadn’t of been for the cramping up of Wall’s legs, we might have blown them out. How you can say we should have despite the reality of what happened is beyond me and really pretty unrealistic.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2009 5:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

For starters...

UNC looked much more keen on finishing a game than UK. If your policy is too put all your basketball eggs in one basket, we know where that heads .

That’s always been my biggest criticism of Cal…his teams have trouble finishing games. Much of that is due to poor free throw shooting, which he does not emphasize. I think it’s almost to the point of arrogance when it comes to practicing it. It seems he wants to win his way so he can say hey, I told you free throws weren’t important.

To say one coach is better than the other requires so many variables : recruiting, preparation, x’s and o’s…adjustments…. Being better in one facet does not trump the others. Right now I’d say it’s pretty much a toss up between Cal and Williams, but I’d give the slight nod to Williams because he has rings.

by daniel81 on Dec 7, 2009 5:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Free throws

Uk shot a better % than UNC on Saturday. I think UK will stay around 70% for the year as a team. That’s respectable. If the players do like Bledsoe, taking pride in their foul shooting, practicing on their own time, it may be even better.

by UK1972 on Dec 7, 2009 7:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The 28-2 run was about talent and the coach getting out of the way.

UNC’s second-half defensive pressure was about coaching. Now, I give Coach Cal full credit for what he does, and I like it, wineman, see me smile- :-))? On the other hand, changes in strategy and tactics that produce changes in the way the team plays, now that’s coaching.

Hey, look. Cal is a hell of a coach. He is having the opportunity of a lifetime now, and I, for one, think he’s gonna make the most out of it. I look for a national championship out of him sooner than later, but give me an example of a major shift in tactics that changed the way the game was going late in the UNC game. I looked but didn’t see it. I’m like you in that I don’t remember much of anything, but I just didn’t see a major coaching change on UK’s part in the second half. Now, I’m sure that he was telling them to let the guards, who were shooting FTs well, to do most/all of the ballhandling, and for that, he gets credit, because it worked.

Mights and mites are both small things.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 7:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey,

we have to be sure we get along, I was a sophomore at UK during the Runts. Lived in Hagan Hall and knew a lot of the freshmen bball players. I really am not sure what more Coach Cal could have done with Wall going out so unexpectedly. I thought for the most part Bledsoe did what he had to do and when Wall came back we were still up by about 12 I think. At that point UK let Wall take over and it took him several minutes to get back up to game speed. At about the point where he seemed to get back in control, Carolina missed several opportunities to pull even. At the end of the game Wall was just starting to look like Wall again and we held them off. I still don’t see where Roy did anything significantly better than Cal but he did do a remarkable job of keeping his players from giving up the ghost.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2009 9:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you remember what your room number was?

Were you on the corridor with Conley and Kron? If so, we were neighbors.

I intend to get along. I’m not really such a glass-half-empty kind of guy, but the only way to improve is to fix those things that went wrong. Coach Rupp would yell at the Runts for a couple of hours for having over seven or eight turnovers, even though they were winning every game (up to the one in Knoxville, and I don’t like to talk about that). I’d just like to see these guys play like that 28-2 run for a whole game. For that nine minutes plus, that was the best team I ever saw wear Wildcat uniforms. Man, if we could have that for 25-30 minutes a game!!!!!!!!

And I don’t think Ol’ Roy significantly outcoached Coach Cal. I just think his defensive adjustments in the second half had more impact on the game than any tactical move Coach Cal made. Please don’t take it as a hit on Cal. It wasn’t meant that way, and I love the guy. There’s no one I’d rather have in Lexington.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 8, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Can't remember the

room number, but I was on the fourth floor. What was the name of the little grill right there by the dorm? Was it the Wildcat Lair? Pansy used to make the meanest fried honey-buns you ever had. I was on a sugar high for the whole time I was there. Was Cliff Berger (Barger?) a freshman with you or the year before?

by kywineman on Dec 8, 2009 10:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I was on the second floor, and I can't remember

the name of the grill. Cliff was a sophomore (with a BUNCH of other guys: Tallent, Porter, LeMaster, Clevenger, Gamble, etc) my freshman year. BTW, he was tall for the time, but, unlike a lot of 6’8" guys now, couldn’t walk and chew gum at the same time. But he was the nicest guy in the world and saved the game at Georgia (OT win by 4) by making UK’s final four points. A great guy married to Marsha Jackson, who was homecoming queen my senior year.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 9, 2009 9:06 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Centralia

Berger played for legendary HS coach Arthur Trout at Centralia HS in southern Illinois.

Illinois All-Stater in 1964 and state runner-up (Berger’s last second jumpshot was blocked = 1 pt loss).

by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 9, 2009 9:44 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They have one of the

best high school Christmas tournaments in the country at Centralia H.S. Eight Chicago teams against eight S. Ill. teams. Talent versus disipline and refs. I saw Tracy Webster play there for four years and he was a heck of a high school player. He had a full beard already as freshman and was the best player on the court.

by Grasslands1 on Dec 9, 2009 1:54 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ahhh,

Tallent, what that guy could have done with a 3 point line. Was Thad Jaracz (sp) in that class?

by kywineman on Dec 9, 2009 10:11 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Right, of course.

How could I forget to put Thad on the list. He was the only starter who was different from the year before. I’ve heard that he retired from the Army as a lieutenant colonel JAG (lawyer).

And Bob Tallent. My, my. I wrote an entire article about him on ASOB about a year ago. Best natural shooter I ever saw. Got kicked off the team the next year and finished his college career at George Washington, later coaching there, I think.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 9, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Only Of Only 2 HS A-A On The Runts

Tallent and Larry Conley were both Parade HS A-A.

by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 9, 2009 9:11 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

What is wrong with

riding the guy that would have been the #1 draft pick in the NBA if he had been allowed to go that route. NC got their momentum when Wall went out and it continued because he was not 100% when he came back. You ride your best, and that is what Wall and PP are. UK did not do a good enough job of getting PP some touches in the second half, no doubt. But not counting on Wall because he is a freshmen would be terrible coaching. And I don’t need to tell anybody this, but Cal is not a terrible coach by any stretch of the imagination.

by Grasslands1 on Dec 8, 2009 12:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The kittens are incredible, for sure. PPat is the cat.

He needs a break out game. A game where HE dominates and the world takes notice.
Wall is becoming the face of this team, and for good reason. Patrick is the back bone. Without his quiet 19 on Saturday, the team is 7-1.

No matter where you're at, there you are

by cincyblue on Dec 7, 2009 4:39 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Couldn't agree more, cincy.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 7:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

this team is the best team Cal has every coached...

i know they are young, but having watched Cal up close, i can tell you this team is better than any team he ever had at memphis. i know i posted some comments on an earlier thread, but Cal KNOWS it too. his whole routine of “we are not a very good team” is directed at the players and NOT the fans…He is trying to keep them hungry because he knows they could be special.

i thought “ole roy” did out coach Cal – which happens more often than not in game. however, Cal clearly outcoached “ole roy” by signing Wall….

only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team

by memphis wildcat on Dec 7, 2009 5:06 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Right, and recrujiting's a very significant part of coaching these days.

IMO, it’s bigger now than its ever been because of the “AAU/ESPN/NBA effect”. Personally, I think Coach Smith was the best floor coach we’ve ever had (with the possible exception of Rupp’s assistant Harry Lancaster), with Coach Hall a close second. Coach Hall was probably second to Coach Cal in recruiting, but moreso as the recruiting assistant than as the head coach.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 7:47 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Darn that "j" key--my right index fingjer is hjyperactive.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 7:48 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree with your comments on Wall

During his maturation, he’s going to have to realize he can’t break down the defense off the dribble every time down the court. He’s also going to have to give up the rock a little more often and not just for the flashy dunk.

I’ve said it a million times and though criticized, I’ll say it again. Bball is won on offense. The reason behind our run in the first half? Miller and Dodson knocking down threes, as well as patterson. UK, like most teams, is an entirely different club when they are making three pointers. A great offense can always beat a great defense in basketball. Our defense played really well and as you saw, that was just enough to hang on. But when we’re hitting the long ball with some consistency, we can dominate and still give up points at the other end.

by daniel81 on Dec 7, 2009 5:24 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ah, daniel, daniel,

we’ve had this discussion about offense/defense before, and, while I agree with you that a great offense is tough to beat, defense is the foundation the structure is built on. Defense is dependable, like the proverbial girl next door, while offense will date you for a while and then go out with the football captain if he asks (VMI, Gardner-Webb, a couple of the non-conference teams we faced this year).

I guess that’s really the strength I’d like to see this team have: a bona fide shut-down defense. They’re getting better, for sure, and maybe that’ll be their trademark. They did pretty well against UNC; much better than in their early games.

BTW, we did play good defense, but so did they. Both teams shot below their season averages, but UNC shot better in the second half than the first, even though their 3-pt shooting wasn’t as good. The biggest issue I have with our defense in the second half was failure to block out on the UNC end of the floor. With good block-outs, neither Orton’s great block inside nor Wall’s incredible strip would have been necessary. I will say there were some “long” offensive rebounds by UNC where we blocked out better, but it was spotty.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 8:03 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Calipari Addresses Blocking Out

Coach devoted quite a bit of time on his radio show to the Cats blocking-out inadequacies. It was a focus of the team’s video study and was one of the reasons that Harrellson saw so few minutes. Conclusion was: you can either be a ball watcher or a rebounder, not both, and in second half Cats spent far too much time ball watching.

"Learn(ing) without thinking begets ignorance. Think(ing) without learning is dangerous."
-Confucius

by Wild Weasel on Dec 7, 2009 8:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, thanks, Weasel.

I didn’t get to hear the radio show—grandkid commitments—but I’m not surprised. Second chances by UNC seemed to be pretty common in the second half, particularly.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Offense V. Defense

This is really a good discussion and I can see the points on both sides.

It just seems like you can be the best defensive team in the world, but you would still need to be able to put points up on the board in order to win the game. If you played perfect defense and no offense, your score would still be zero.

It is not worth an intelligent man’s time to be in the majority. By definition, there are already enough people to do that.

by kentuckygirl0724 on Dec 8, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

See guys

women like scoring, they don’t want to watch a 50-49 game unless it’s football.

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 12:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, I like scoring, too, even in a basketball game.

I’m not against offense at all. I love fast-paced teams that take every open shot. See my profile. Good shooting should be prerequisite #1 for a college player. But even the best shooters have cold nights. That’s why I think a team should take a lot of pride in their defense and play it like the opponents just punched their mothers.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 8, 2009 9:04 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That's funny.

Scoring, even in a basketball game.

by daniel81 on Dec 9, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Old guys sometimes have a sense of humor, too.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 9, 2009 12:41 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oops, sorry, daniel,

meant to also say that “giving up the rock” when you’re double-teamed is one of the characteristics of the DDMO, as I understand it, but JW is just eight games into what I hope will be a fantastic career, both at UK and in the NBA. He’s smart, he’ll learn. In the meantime, I guess we’ll have to enjoy his educational progress.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Miller and Dodson

knocked down those threes from passes made by Wall as he penetrated and kicked the ball back out. That is his job and he is damn good at making the defenses respond to him. Does it go wrong sometimes? Yes but he gets it right enough to keep on doing it. I saw him pull the ball back out more times against UNC then he has all season. Defense keeps you in the games so that the offense can win them.

by kywineman on Dec 7, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

You find one vague example?

And it’s not even proving your point.

Are you referring to the year Loyola lost 131-101 to UNLV in the elite 8? Sounds like they ran up against an even better offense to me. I wonder how far they would have gotten with just a good defense, sure has gotten UK teams far the past six years. Not to mention Loyola lost their top scorer that year before playing UNLV.
BTW, UNLV was one of the top offenses in the country that year. I believe they scored more than 100 points three times during the NCAA tourney. Of course I’m sure that’s because they blocked shots into the goal.

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 11:50 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

PLENTY Of Examples

Rarely do the top offensive teams in Div I make FF much less win NC.

UNLV was successful when its DEFENSE was good – Tarkanian said so, not me. Read his book(s).

by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 8, 2009 12:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha, you're flat wrong.

2008-09 champ, UNC, scoring offense nat’l rank: 2
                                     scoring def. nat’l rank: 275
2007-08 champ, Kansas, scoring offense nat’l rank: 13
                                         scoring def. nat’l rank: 21
2006—07 champ, Florida, scoring offense nat’l rank: 11
                                         scoring def. nat’l rank: 42
2005-06 champ, Florida , scoring offense nat’l rank: 22
                                         scoring defense nat’l rank: 50

2004-05 champ, North Carolina. scoring offense nat’l rank: 1
                                                    scoring defense nat’l rank: 217

source: ncaa.org

The past five years, which is all I looked at, every champion has had a more potent offense than defense by the ranking, some years it hasn’t even been close. O is greater than D in bball, at least in the modern age.

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 12:39 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh and another thing senor stats

Basically for the past 10 years Princeton and Airforce have been at the top each year in team defense by scoring average. Where are their rings/ncaa births?

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 12:43 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Check Their O And D Ratings In Their Last 6 Games, Not All Season

Defense wins games in March.

Offense may get you into March but you’ll need D to win once U get there.

by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 8, 2009 2:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe, that's a subjective argument.

The stats you always point to, though, show that the past five champs all had a better O than D.

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 3:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, there's a trend here.

Ol’ Roy’s teams score a lot and don’t defend much, if these numbers are to be believed. But they played pretty good D in the second half against UK, IMO. Hmmm.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 8, 2009 9:21 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Half and half

They played better D but we quit making open shots.

by daniel81 on Dec 9, 2009 10:18 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Correlation?

I still think slowing the pace to burn the clock took us out of our rhythm, and shooters need rhythm.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 9, 2009 12:45 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Looking at scoring defense is deceptive...

Those teams were all fast paced and had more possessions per game than most teams. That would lead to higher points on both sides of the ball. That is not the best way to judge a defense.

by Clay Mason on Dec 9, 2009 2:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

BBALL is won on offense you say?

If that were the case we would have beat UCLA in the finals of 1975. John Wooden himself said that to Kevin Grevey.

by Grasslands1 on Dec 8, 2009 12:56 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Then Mich. State should have beat UNC last year in the title

Right?

Btw, no 3 ball in 1975….big difference between now and then.

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 10:55 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Both UCLA And UK Had Good Perimeter Shooters

http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/Statistics/Games/19750331UCLA.html Trgovich and Meyers, especially.

The LACK of defense by UK was a primary reason for that L to UCLA.

by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 8, 2009 11:23 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In your opinion

Looks like they got outscored to me. Solid defense is great, don’t get me wrong. But it doesn’t matter if people are making shots, just ask Bryan Russell

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 11:52 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I Saw The Game

UCLA had a combination of inside and outside scoring, as did UK.

UK did not defend the Bruins well enough, hence UCLA won. John Wooden said that, not me. Read his book(s).

by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 8, 2009 12:17 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I always thought

that good shooting was a combination of skill and luck, while good D is a combination of skill and desire/will/tenaciousness, etc. Offense can and will win you games, and it will be very exciting when you can do so, but you can’t ALWAYS count on it…sometimes your team’s stroke just aint there, and you can’t shoot yourself into the zone again. I agree that if people are making shots, good D doesn’t matter a great deal, but if they’re NOT (and NO team always does) then there’s reliable old defense to (hopefully, more often than not) win you the game.

by blue kentucky girl on Dec 8, 2009 1:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As you say

D and O can not show up some games. That’s just sports I guess. i just think the teams with a lot of O and a little D are better than the teams with a lot of D and little O. UCLA got to the final four back to back with a good d, but they failed when facing a superior O. Mich. State great D, couldn’t stop UNC’s Lawson and Co. Kansas had one of the best defenses stat wise of the last 5 champions, though their offense was still ranked higher. And kansas would have gone down if Memphis could have executed the simplest of offensive plays…shhh…here it comes…free throws.

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 1:16 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

yeah, I see what you mean

I don’t necessarily disagree with you, just think maybe D can be depended on more than O can, making it’s mastery a hair more important. Offense is a hot but flighty temptress, I guess is what I’m saying : ) Gotta have both, that’s for damn sure.

by blue kentucky girl on Dec 8, 2009 1:22 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Hey, so do I,

and daniel and I were the ones who started this whole thing.

Let me state my real position without starting another flurry:
- No team ever plays perfect offense, even for a game
- No team ever plays perfect defense, even for a game
- Sometimes, even good shooting teams have cold nights
- With the right effort, good defensive teams CAN never have an “off” night
And finally (drum roll), you gotta score more points than the other team to win.

Now, with that done, let me ask how the scoringest (nice word, oldcat. Why, thank you) team in the NCAA fared in the tournament last year.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 8, 2009 9:13 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I can't

believe you came up with that word before Clark Kellogg.

by kywineman on Dec 8, 2009 10:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oldcat

VMI had best offense, finished 24-8, UNC was second.
Wash. State had best defense.
Neither Wash. State or VMI made tourney.

by daniel81 on Dec 9, 2009 10:24 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I kinda thought VMI had the best offense, but was too lazy to look it up.

The fact that neither made the tourney speaks to the need for balance (as in the rest of life).

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 9, 2009 12:46 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, blue,

that’s what I was saying with the “girl next door” analogy above. For you ladies, we can change the definitions to “guy next door” and “homecoming queen.”

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 8, 2009 9:18 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I love your analogy about the date

But I think sometimes missed shots are confused with good defense. In many cases, we were getting the same looks in the second half we just weren’t knocking down the shots.

by daniel81 on Dec 7, 2009 8:27 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Oh, I agree 100% with that.

Both Miller and Dodson (or was it Bledsoe) had great looks for 3 on the same possession, but they didn’t fall. Personally, I think this team needs to keep things moving a bit more than they did in the second half. When you’re running down the shot clock before taking shots, there’s a “stop-start” mentality that precludes good offensive flow. It gives the players too much time to think, I think, I think. Whether thinking is a factor or not, the result was the same. Intermittent running, lots of standing around, missed shots.

When you think (there’s that word again) about it, the last five or six minutes of that game were really weird. We really didn’t make that many field goal attempts. The two threes on the same possession, Bledsoe’s layup, both Bledsoe and Wall’s pitiful attempts in the lane, Wall’s nearly miraculous crossover to a missed bank from the right side, and not much else. Just a strange stretch of basketball. Again, I think slowing the pace to consume to clock may have caused that.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 8:59 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Very strange stretch.

That’s what I was talking about with the eggs in one basket. Freshmen are going to look that way sometimes, that’s when you have to find your upperclassmen…mainly ppat. Wall hasn’t done a satisfactory job of getting him the ball thus far and that’s going to have to change to realize the full potential of this team.

by daniel81 on Dec 8, 2009 10:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Good point on the "think"

but I believe what we’re seeing is a team learning how to think. Cal is still trying to get the offense instinctual so there isn’t that “think” delay. Some of the delay in getting this instinctual play may be from Cal deciding how to run the DDMO with this team’s skill set.

This team is a little bigger and has more teamwide ability than what he’s had before. He has to mesh a tremendously talented team into what will be a hybrid of DDMO and post sets. It’s how to get the team to realize when to switch that will be the major stepping stone.

by hoboat33 on Dec 8, 2009 10:59 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That 28-2 run was largely instinctual, in my opinion.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 8, 2009 9:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

They were

in a good offensive rythym.

by kywineman on Dec 8, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Very true

but two questions need to be answered: Can they keep it at that level (or at least close) for a whole game? Can they attain some semblance of that level without Wall?

by hoboat33 on Dec 9, 2009 12:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A. No; B. Unlikely

"Learn(ing) without thinking begets ignorance. Think(ing) without learning is dangerous."
-Confucius

by Wild Weasel on Dec 9, 2009 7:30 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Very instinctual

Definitely. Despite Indiana winning last night, I think we can still blow them out if they try to run on us like they did Pitt because those instincts will again be on display. Run and gun baby, run and gun.

by daniel81 on Dec 9, 2009 10:20 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

to=the, sorry.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 7, 2009 9:00 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

i love it when

our most seasoned Cat fans ruminate and chat.

by StillCatwoman on Dec 8, 2009 5:30 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and "seasoned",

that’s a nice word for old. Wineman and I have some years on us, but daniel is 29, unless he didn’t age in the last year—a mere child in the big scheme of things. :-)) Just kidding, daniel.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 9, 2009 1:00 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm just 28

29 in November, but I feel it in the mornings…:)

by daniel81 on Dec 9, 2009 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

you feel 29?

LOL….enjoy it….I feel great now, but feeling 29 again? Do I remember how that was?….Gosh, 28 is soooo ancient ;-)

Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!

by a2d2 on Dec 9, 2009 3:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That was the

mantra of my generation but when we reached 30 we upped it to 40 and have been increasing it by a decade ever since.

by kywineman on Dec 9, 2009 6:58 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

In that case I'll be dead soon

First time I shot her, shot her in the side.
Hard to watch her suffer, but with the second shot she died...

by btcoop71 on Dec 11, 2009 11:13 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Sorry, thought you and Tink

were both 28 about this time last year.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 9, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I would love

to feel 29 in the mornings.

by kywineman on Dec 9, 2009 6:56 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

From one old cat to another

At least on ASOB. We older folks don’t tell the younger set. “We have forgot more Cat facts than you will ever know”

Happy Days are here again The sky is all ways BLUE again Happy days are here again !

by oldcat70 on Dec 9, 2009 2:40 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

seasoning is a great thing... spice of life

and I can say that because, I am nearly as seasoned as you are.. Didn’t you reminisce about life at Haggin Hall? I wondered if I was moving into Donovan the year you were moving out of Haggin. (it was probably close)

There are details about the game of basketball that no one ever talks about anymore. I like to hear people who recognize and reflect on the fine points and the true fundamentals of the game.

by StillCatwoman on Dec 10, 2009 10:38 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

Thank you, ma'am.

I moved into Haggin in the Fall of ’65. It was a mixture of horror and ecstacy, but all (er, most of us) survived.

And true fundamentals of the game are what I’m all about. I’d rather see a jumper off a pick-and-roll than a dunk, because the jumper means the team is working together. I’d rather see a 3-on-2 fast break end with a jumper from the free throw line than a “blow-by” dunk because the jumper leaves the side guys in better position for a rebound. Stuff like that!!

On another tawdry subject, sorry about the idiocy that preceded all the weirdness in the media about your husband’s career field. How in the world could he expect to get away with it? I just became a Mickelson fan.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 10, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I've always

been a Mickelson fan.

by kywineman on Dec 10, 2009 10:32 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

amazing isn't it?

your appreciation for the finer points is exactly why I enjoy your comments so much. And I suspect you have the same opinion regarding the power drives for distance, vs. a player who knows how to control his shot in golf. Course management is fast becoming another sadly lost art as young golfers concern themselves only with how far they hit it off the tee. Yet for all the gains in distance that new equipment yields, Tour tournament scores have only dropped by an average of one stroke over the years. And in my humble opinion, that could be as much attributable to the high standards of modern day course maintenance as to equipment.

I presume you already know that he is the most fined professional player in the history of the game for his use of profanity on the course…a greater number of fines than players who have played decades longer than he has. I would not personally care one way or the other about his mouth, other than how it makes the Tour look, except that when you accept the mantle to be a role model to children, THEN you have to take responsibility for controlling your public use of language and your temper tantrums.

My personal opinion was developed some ten years back following the Bay Hill, at a restaurant when he was told he could not be seated immediately, and he responded with “do you know who I am?”

But he missed some steps that might have been very beneficial in the development of character. The ‘old’ dudes— the seasoned ones— who sometimes drink tea around my kitchen table, have a special bond. It never got in the way of their burning desire to beat each other on the course, but it exists the rest of the time. They played without the financial safety net of mega dollar endorsement deals. Instead they were a band of brothers playing for enough money to get them to the next tournament. Driving all night, sleeping in cars; no private jets, personal trainers, nor an entourage to take care of their whims. These are not the stories of bottom feeders on the Tour; this was the reality of the top money winners; men who played for the love of the game. Every time I hear the media cooing over the idea of winning the US Open with a broken bone in your foot, I can only presume they have never heard of Ben Hogan …But I am saying things that I am sure you already know and am no doubt preaching to the choir.

The good news is that last week we had several days of heavy rain here, which grounded the media helicopters and afforded the rest of the residents of this hamlet a little peace and quiet.

by StillCatwoman on Dec 11, 2009 7:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh, and while we're on golf,

During his 11-win stretch in ’45, Byron Nelson averaged 68.33 on courses that were crappy, with clubs and balls that were inconsistent, and while driving from tournament to tournament, without the help of swing gurus, mental coaches, personal trainers, a Tour fitness van, courtesy cars, complimentary meals, etc, etc, etc. Amazing, huh? But he had a purpose, and he could golf his ball. I personally am glad to see the groove requirements change and hope they have the desired effect.

Now, back to basketball-How ’bout them Cats?

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 11, 2009 8:58 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

And you didn't tell me when you moved into Donovan.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 11, 2009 9:01 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ummm, do you mean, I didn't tell you I lived in Gator country?

Yes, for a long long time, longer than many of the famous residents. Not in the high-cotton gated community but the sleepy little Mayberry village that surrounds it. Warm enough to play golf almost every day, close to a major airport, lots of great courses with playing privileges… that’s pretty much the job-related residency requirements. You have to watch out for the gators that crawl but you learn to ignore the ones that just shoot their mouths off.

You made the best point of all about what this does to the game of gentlemen. They are certainly not all perfect men, but as a whole, they have maintained the reputation of good moral character. Will one man be able to turn this into the NBA in the eyes of the public?

by StillCatwoman on Dec 11, 2009 10:17 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I'm worried about the "NBA syndrome", too,

but I was referring to your comment several above when you mentioned moving into Donovan Hall at UK.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 11, 2009 10:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh Donvan Hall!

LOL, I forgot that’s how the conversation started. (must be getting old) It was after you were out of Haggin, but the older I get the more vague I become about my age and my weight. :)

by StillCatwoman on Dec 11, 2009 10:32 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Gotcha. It's a Mars/Venus thing, I guess. :-))

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 11, 2009 1:44 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

That is the best take on this whole stinkin' situation that I've read.

You should have your insights published. You are right in that I’m in the choir. I’m on the far south end of the “golf pro, pro golfer” continuum when compared to guys like TW and your husband, but I still think this mess that’s hitting the fan gets on all of us. And we, and the game, don’t deserve it.

No longer will we be able to hold up golf as the sport of gentlemen/ladies who call penalties on themselves without getting a “yeah, right” look. And I resent the hell out of it.

Talent is one thing, success is another, although related. But, the more years I get under my (expanding) belt, the more I realize that relationships with like-minded individuals are what it’s all about. That’s why I enjoy ASOB so much and that’s why I pityTiger and others in the new generation of golfers who’ve missed the things you describe in your comment. I had those types of relationships with the guys I flew with in the Air Force, and I miss them a heck of a lot more than I miss the actual flying.

Thanks for your comment, and thanks to your husband and his peers for being my real heroes in golf.

No moral victories--it's all about Ws and Ls!!!

by oldcat'69 on Dec 11, 2009 8:45 AM EST reply actions   0 recs

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