The SEC Needs To Save Itself.......
from the SEC??? Let's take a long hard look at what we have become and where it goes from here.
Some critics (myself included) feel like this whole situation has become unmanageable for College Sports, and may be at the center of the problem as far as the NCAA is concerned. We have created these "Super Conferences" and they are literally taking over College Athletics. Has self-preservation opened the door to disaster? Have the big conferences made life untenable for the rest of collegiate athletics? Some opinions, answers, and more questions after the jump.
The SEC has been around for somewhere in the range of 75-80 years in collegiate athletics. At the time of it's founding the SEC had 13 members, ten of which still remain today, along with Sewanee, Georgia Tech, and Tulane. Sewanee left in the 40's while Georgia Tech and Tulane hung around until the mid 60's. The conference went along with no major changes until 1991. At that time the conference was again expanded to bring in Arkansas and South Carolina. The expansion in the 90's was a part of the huge "recruiting spree" that almost every major conference in the country went on in those days to protect their interests as a "player" in collegiate sports. And it is that expansion and the results of it that bring us to this point. Now understand something, the SEC is only one part of this whole situation. By the way, thanks to ESPN, they are now the richest player at the table. The ESPN deal is the richest in the history of collegiate sports broadcasting. What the SEC hopes to gain by this is increasing it's marketability in other areas outside the Southeast where it reigns supreme in recruiting and fans. The money doesn't hurt either.
Where the conferences and their expansions really show is in the BCS and the NCAA tournament. The conferences control virtually every bowl game now ( all 34 I believe) and who is going where. If I want to start a bowl game in my hometown, I would have to align myself with 2 of the power conferences just to get it off the ground. This is what has brought us to where we are in how teams, and coaches, look at their season. 6 wins now "qualifies" you for participation in the BCS. 6 wins, that's a .500 record . Coaches now look first at their schedule to see what will qualify them for a bowl, then at what they need to do to complete their season. Schools from these power conferences are in effect "buying" their bowl games.This year, it appears that the SEC will get as many as 10 teams into bowl games. 10 out of 12, mind blowing when it comes to showing just how "watered down" bowl appearances have become.
The NCAA tournament in basketball has not quite gotten to that point. The tournament still has their selection committee, and they control basically 1/2 of the teams that get in, but that number continues to dwindle in certain circumstances. For example, if an SEC team wins the regular season title, they have in effect made the tournament. However, the SEC Tournament Champion gets the automatic bid. So that would give the SEC 2 teams in the tournament with one of those spots guaranteed. The tournament committee has formulas that they use each year for selections, and those have always been clouded in a bit of mystery, and that is what has lead in past years to a lot of speculation about who earned their way in and who didn't.
Collegiate athletics has created these problems for themselves. The conferences want to guarantee as much exposure for their schools as possible to "spread the wealth". They have, by doing this, corrupted the system that was supposed to prevent one school, or one group from controlling the post-season, or manipulating it to their benefit.
Where does the SEC fit into all of this you ask? Well, quite honestly it's simple. With a win this week against Vandy, the University of Kentucky guarantees itself participation in one of the bowl games I spoke of above. a win this week, means that we are one of the top 68 teams in all of college football, or are we??
The AD at Boise State University put out a challenge last week to any and all schools to play them at their school in 2011, with no guarantee of a return game necessary. they will play any football BCS division opponent that will accept the game. September 4, I believe is the open date. As of yet the AD had received no calls back or inquiries from any of the BCS schools about playing them on that date. And you know what, I don't believe they will get one either. No one wants to take a chance and go out on a limb when their bowl chances might hang in the balance. I applaud the AD at Boise for doing what most people out there are scared to do. John Calipari says the Cats will do the same thing in basketball. They will not be afraid to play anyone anywhere. He happens to like neutral sites, and I believe that is an excellent approach.
Has the system become so tenuous that schools are afraid to play an opponent from the little ol' Mountain West conference that is so bad they cant go undefeated and get into a championship bowl game? If it has, then the SEC just might need to step in and save itself, from itself.
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Only One Problem, Only One Sport
The only real problem – and it’s not insurmountable – is the sport of FB and the execrable bowl system. The solution is so simple that it borders on the imbecilic: a playoff system similar to that of the other NCAA athletic competition or more specifically that of the FCS, DII and DIII intercollegiate football. Alas, as long as the moneyed interests have the ultimate say the NCAA will remain in its hypocritical stance as existing for the benefit of the student athlete.
"Learn(ing) without thinking begets ignorance. Think(ing) without learning is dangerous."
-Confucius
by Wild Weasel on Nov 9, 2009 1:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Dream game
I’d love to see UK take up Bose State on the offer. If we lose, not a big deal – if you look at Kentucky’s roster and redshirts we’re going to have a good team that year and should be able to finally beat at least a couple SEC teams. If we don’t qualify for a bowl that year, fine – six years in a row to a minor bowl would be embarrassing. If we win, it is a big deal. Say what you will, Boise State is known as a football power; at least, much more than Kentucky.
by hoboat33 on Nov 9, 2009 2:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Agreed....
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 9, 2009 2:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That would be a good thing.
Won’t happen, though. Mitch Barnhart is too jealous of those victories.
I think we should replace Louisville with Boise State. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 9, 2009 7:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think we should play them back-to-back.....
beat them both, and get all kinds of media exposure…..lol
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 9, 2009 8:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I thought of that when Boise was talking all that stuff. UK would be a good choice. Not the best but a good lithmus test. UK wins Boise shuts up. Neither has anything to lose. Boise isn’t getting into a big game, neither is UK.
If Florida or Albama went and thumped them it wouldn’t stop it. It would be, “We (boise) put up XX points against your best! See we should #3 or #4.” That loss wouldn’t hurt them.
I’ve watched Boise and they aren’t that good. They beat up on WAC teams. Big deal. There’s high school teams that probably could to.
All this is about conferences why don’t someone like Boise, USC, or TCU go join a real conference like the SEC and all this stops again.
"Success is the glue that holds great teams together." - Adolph Rupp
by crackerjack43 on Nov 12, 2009 10:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
no one wants them to come in....Boise State is a prime candidate for
the PAC-10 or the Big 12….but they dont want them…..they dont feel like they bring anything to the table
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 12, 2009 11:51 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
One thing ...
… how can the SEC save itself here? I mean, I get you point and all, but it doesn’t seem to mesh with your lede.
Is the SEC going to save itself from success? I’m thinking not. :-)
Oh, and, who dey gonna kick out of the SEC? UK? Vandy? Just askin …
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 9, 2009 7:46 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well, I guess after rereading it I should have been more blunt about my point
I keep writing these things with the blog itself and their intimate knowledge of my “concerns” about our Cats, the NCAA,etc. in mind. I forget that these things get read by people outside our blog. My apologies. My point is that in it’s quest for making itself better, the SEC is making the same mistakes that NASCAR and some other sports have made in taking the fans for granted. I dont advocate kicking anyone out, but by getting so big, and having so much power, they no longer concern themselves with the people that got them here. Look at the rules changes concerning communications devices. All of this is being done to get more and more control of the product. But they are not alone. All of the big conferences are doing it. It is like a huge game of “Anything You Can Do I Can Do Better”. The success MAY be the worst thing that could happen to the SEC.
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 9, 2009 8:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Okay, I see.
But when you accuse the league of “taking the fans for granted,” I guess I can see your point, but until the fans start not showing up for games, or not driving huge TV ratings, why would you expect anything to change?
I mean, seriously, “the fans,” as a collective, don’t seem to be upset with the SEC. There is no groundswell to change the league, or make it better by adding or subtracting teams.
I agree that the SEC is ridiculously anal with their media policy, but to be honest, until somebody objects convincingly or en masse, nothing will happen. We bloggers had a huge discussion about this earlier in the year, and the SEC mostly corrected the really broken things.
I do see an argument that the league is imperfect, even flawed, but without mass complaints and declining ratings, nothing is likely to change. You don’t fix what isn’t broken, and from a revenue and attendance standpoint, the SEC isn’t broken.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 9, 2009 10:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And ...
… what’s so bad about all the bowls? Granted, they don’t mean that much, but they draw a crowd, make money, and are a goal for every team.
Even if the BCS goes the way of the mastodon and we have a full-blown playoff, it won’t realistically be more than maybe eight teams. Does that mean the other 31 bowls are just supposed to close up shop and call it a career?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 9, 2009 7:52 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Actually losing about half of the bowls wouldnt bother me at all
then the others might actually mean something. More importantly, the coaches and schools would have to start earning those bids….play harder schedules, beat more teams….i.e. the product will improve. In this case, less is actually more. No more being rewarded with post-season play for mediocrity. 6 wins doesnt get you bupkus. Teams could no longer “buy” a bowl game.
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 9, 2009 8:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But what would we do in December
without our daily bowl or two or three? ;-)
by hoboat33 on Nov 9, 2009 9:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I understand your point.
But why would you discontinue a moneymaking enterprise? Good for the schools, good for the patrons. Why would you do that?
These bowls would not be here if they weren’t making money and in demand. I don’t disagree with you point that more bowl games render all bowl games a little less meaningful, but as long as the fans show up and cheer, how can that be a bad thing?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 9, 2009 10:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Then institute a playoff system and make the bowls mean something.
Instead of sending out the teams to a meaningless bowl, make those bowls th first round of a playoff. 68 teams sounds like a good place to start to me.
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 6:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
Let me do the math — 64 (68 is a bad number) football teams playing a playoff.
OK, that would be 32 football games week 1. 16 football games week 2, 8 games week 3, 4 games week 4, 2 games week 5 and then the national championship in week six.
So you would extend the football season by six weeks? So instead of finishing in January, we would finish in mid-February at the earliest, all the while competing with basketball season during the run up to the season-ending tournaments.
I’m going to go out on an limb here and say that wouldn’t work. Not only would injuries be a major factor in tacking an additional six-week playoff season onto a 13-week season, the logistics would be a nightmare.
If we ever get a playoff, it would, in my opinion, never be more than eight teams. Football is not basketball, there are five times as many players and staff to move, put up in hotels, etc. The logistics and costs would be astronomical for the schools, even if all the other problems people have mentioned did not exist.
With an eight team playoff, you would tack 3 weeks onto the season. That’s a manageable number. Of course, the other 27 bowl games would probably still remain intact.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 7:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
meaningless bowl? Really?
Blue... there is no other color to Bleed !!!
by a2d2 on Nov 10, 2009 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I dont call beating East Carolina meaningful....lol
The Clemson win was good, as it was the first in a long time, Florida State didnt seem to mean as much because they only had 1/2 their team to play with, and Beating East Carolina to me was like beating up on your sister. It might make you feel better for a while, but in the end, shes still a girl…..no offense A2…..lol
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 10:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think it was meaningful.
ECU was and is a very good program. In a way, they are kind of like Boise State, only not quite that good – a mid-major program looking for respect.
If teams like Boise State can demand all this respect, why not teams like ECU, who have a lower profile but are still very good college football teams?
I am proud of the victory over ECU, and I think if we are going to allow other mid-majors like Boise to demand attention, we should be willing to extend it to other programs in similar circumstances who don’t quite have the profile of a Boise State yet, but who are good programs nonetheless.
This seems a curious argument coming from you, actually.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 11:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I know it sounded harsh towards ECU, and I should apologize to them
I didnt mean to make them out to be anything less than what they were. My point was that a win over ECU or Florida State at half strength does not carry much weight with a knowledgeable fan. No disrespect intended.
However, I will say this, ECU’s biggest difference is that if they win their conference, they get respect immediately, because the BCS contract says so.
We go to a bowl game and beat a perennial powerhouse that doesnt have half of their roster suspended and I will lay off of that one….
Boise state can win their conference every year, go undefeated, and all the while they cannot climb higher than the 4-5 best team in the country. They should get a chance to show that they earned their undefeated season and a shot at the title.
And maybe while we are at it, we should toss that term “mid-major” out the window as well. It does nothing but help perpetuate the problem.
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 2:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Now I am confused.
You said that if ECU wins its conference, it gets respect immediately. Weren’t they the conference champs of Conference USA last year. We beat them in the bowl game that that is the home of that champion and you say that a “knowledgeable fan” will not give that game much weight.
Sounds as if you are the knowledgeable fan not giving the respect. Now, if I am wrong about ECU winning their conference last year, then I apologize in advance. However, if I am right, then UK’s victory should be seen as a pretty darn good achievement that shows just exactly how tough the SEC is. Our lower level teams (UK) beat other conference’s champs.
by wklawdog on Nov 10, 2009 3:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ECU beat Tulsa in the CUSA conference championship.
They were the champs of CUSA last year. Tulsa went on to play in the GMAC Bowl vs. Ball State.
I think you’re right. It says something about the SEC that a barely-bowl eligible SEC team could handle the conference champions of lesser leagues. But ECU was a worthy opponent.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's say you are right.....
then why do we get no respect in the polls? If the SEC’s #5 team can beat other conference’s #1 team, then why do they get top 25 billing and we get to stand around with our thumbs in our ears?
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 8:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We will get respect in the polls, I think ...
… when we earn it. I don’t think anyone would argue with the fact that 1-4 in the SEC is not worthy of a lot of respect.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 11, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
But if we are the 7-8th best team in the SEC, does that not
translate into being at least as good as say some of the teams ranked 15-25 in the polls right now?? Using lawdog’s theory above we should be shouldnt we? The only teams we have lost to have been ranked….MSU being the exception
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 9:15 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who says we are that high?
I think I currently have us at #9. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 11, 2009 9:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Using Lawdog's theory"?
You said in your post, which I was responding to, that when ECU wins their conference they get immediate respect. However, it was pretty obvious that you were giving ECU no respect and, by extension, saying that UK’s bowl win over a conference champion was not worthy of respect. My position is that we played a good team and beat them, period. A knowledgeable fan would recognize that fact.
by wklawdog on Nov 11, 2009 4:51 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My point was not to demean what you said in any way....
my point was that beating some “conference champions” commands respect, where as others, well…….
The system does not treat everyone fairly. If you are in a “Big 6” conference you get a different set of rules than those say in the Mountain West, or Big West conferences. The system, and I dont care if its the BCS, the Bowls, or who you want to call it, does not allow for a level playing field. I have no feelings either way about ECU, but if they werent in the conference they are in…..how do you think they would have been treated by the polls, the bowls, or the BCS for that matter?
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 5:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you kidding me?
“But if we are the 7-8th best team in the SEC, does that not
translate into being at least as good as say some of the teams ranked 15-25 in the polls right now??”
Absolutely not.
We’re probably in the 50s or 60s.
by mrmondaynite on Nov 11, 2009 5:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually ...
… I have us currently in the mid-30’s.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 11, 2009 6:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If we're in the 30s,
college football is in the middle of a down year.
Just my opinion.
I tend to agree with this one…
by mrmondaynite on Nov 11, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, where would you have ranked us at the end of last
regular season?
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 6:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way, Scout.com
projects us in the Papa Johns Bowl on Jan 2nd against West Virginia as of this week
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
For Ky that's six wins while plaing in the SEC
Put us in Mountain West with Brooks. We’d have six wins by the end of October. IMHO 6 or 7 overall wins in the SEC deserves a bowl game. Proof is 3 straight bowl games when we aren’t playing dynasties.
No matter where you're at, there you are
by cincyblue on Nov 10, 2009 6:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is exactly what makes my point
in the SEC, unlike some conferences, if you get 6 wins you get a bowl. However, you have to “buy” 4 of those wins most seasons.
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 6:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
… if you look at Boise State, you’ll find that they do the same thing. I note FCS team UC Davis on their schedule, not to mention 1-9 Miami (OH). You don’t think they “buy” those games to make an undefeated season more likely?
SEC teams generally don’t “buy” four wins, they buy two or three, but not all teams do that -Georgia is a notable exception – They only have one non-BCS team on their schedule, while most teams have at least two and some (like UK, Arkansas, Auburn, Alabama, etc.) have three or more non-BCS teams on their schedule. Tennessee is another team that rarely plays more than two non-BCS teams per year (although they did this year). South Carolina only scheduled two non-BCS teams this year, as did Vanderbilt.
The SEC does have more tie-ins, which means that if you are bowl-eligible, you usually get a bowl. What they could do to cut that down is disqualify non-FBS wins as counting toward bowl-eligibility. The only problem with that is, it would deny the big paydays to in-state “Little Brothers” like EKU.
All in all, there are as many negatives as positives to taking that tack, and you see the same thing if you look at the Big 12, Big 10, Pac-10, or any other FBS conference you care to name. Of all the conferences, the Pac-10 seems to schedule the fewest cupcakes, but as weak as the Pac-10 usually is below the top 2 or 3 teams, you shouldn’t wonder why.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 7:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is all very true, Tru (heh) and by no means do I mean to assert
that the SEC is alone in this. ALL of the major conferences have done it. I think what I took away from the article mentioned below, was more than anything that there are solutions to this problem. But no one in the right places seems to care.
On a seperate note, these conferences formed this BCS. It is THEIR baby. Why would they not want to make it work right? I just have come to the understanding that buying your way into a bowl game just doesnt sit right with me. For ANY team. To me it’s like Major League Baseball playing the minor league teams for 25-30% of their schedule. It might be a chance to see some of those minor league players, however it is not a fair game. Unless you are the Pittsburgh Pirates, and then it might be unfair to the Pirates….lol…..
I mean it IS called the Bowl Championship isn’t it??
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 7:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
Regarding your answer, I think the people in the BCS do think it works right. It works exactly as they intended it. That doesn’t mean it is perfect, but I do think they are satisfied with what they have.
And I think the whole “buying a bowl game” thing is not really fair. The BCS doesn’t have anything to do with how many wins it takes to be eligible for a bowl, I don’t believe. My understanding is that they control only the BCS games, and I think the NCAA sets the rules for the rest of the bowls regarding eligibility.
In that regard, the NCAA doesn’t create the bowls – those are put on by third parties and their sponsors. Perhaps that is where the problem really lies – there is no central regulation of bowls, hence, bowls can have tie-ins from the conferences they want, rather than some egalitarian system that is more facially fair.
Of course, the NCAA could set tougher guidelines for bowls to prevent getting halfway to qualification merely by winning three games. They could, for instance, require at least a .500 conference record, or require the six wins all to come from FBS. But that’s not the BCS’ problem, since they use a system to pick their contestants, and “buying” a BCS bowl is pretty much impossible – you nearly have to go undefeated in minor conferences or with a maximum of two losses (usually including a conference championship game) in major conferences to get to one.
I think you are conflating the non-BCS bowls and the BCS. The two have nothing to do with each other, except that a team picked for a BCS bowl obviously won’t be going to a non-BCS bowl.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 8:48 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Actually I am conflating the 2, on purpose
because, and only because, there is no set system to differentiate between the 2, other than the computer rankings. Maybe the BCS needs to include ALL of the bowls, or change its acceptance system, I honestly dont know that there has been one complete answer submitted by anyone. But I do think that if you take those bowl games, pick 8-or 10 to function as the conference championships ( I honestly cannot remember how many conferences are in Div I anymore) and make those the 1st round of a playoff system, you would be on the right track. AND it would also make those bowl games really mean something to the teams playing( not that I think they do not now mean anything), but they would not only have a bowl trophy for their win, they would have a conference championship to go with it.
Then if they get beat in the next round, they have no complaints. You can throw out all of the computer rankings, get rid of the polls, and have an honest to God championship played on or about the 3rd week of Jan. Put those conference championships on during the week between Christmas and New Year’s and highlight the big six conferences on NewYear’s Eve and Day. That way they cannot claim that they have been slighted in anyway.
Make non-conference games between the conferences vary from year to year….ACC VS.SEC one year, then the Big 10 the next…and so on….rotate them…you will get some really great games all year long…..That would also give the smaller schools in those conferences some exposure.
Can you imagine Kentucky playing UNC or Duke, Cincinnati or South Florida, Purdue or Minnesota, Nebraska or Oklahoma State as their non-conference games every year?? I know this eliminates the games against the Div II schools, but frankly, we don’t need to be playing against inferior competition anyway.
And yes there will be some years that the schedule just is not fair, but they wont be every year like it is now. Do we need to play Texas every year…no….but once every 15-20 wont hurt. The Cats playing Notre Dame in week 6?….now THAT will draw fans to Commonwealth.
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 9:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah ...
… but all this isn’t the point of your argument above. Now you have gone back to something we already discussed, which is a playoff.
I think your point was that the BCS system doesn’t work, but I don’t agree. It does work. It just isn’t a playoff, and it was never designed to be one.
Your contention was the teams can “buy” their way into bowls, but that’s not exactly true. The NCAA has set a low threshold for bowl participation, and even if they raised it, you would probably have more bowl spots than qualifiers, and ultimately, the same thing would happen as happens now.
Here’s another thing – the traditional bowls, like the Rose Bowl, for example, could not fit well into a playoff system. That’s one reason why the Pac-10 and Big 10 will never support a playoff any more extensive than the one we have now. Traditional bowl tie-ins would have to be scrapped in an expanded playoff system, and there is just too much resistance for that right now.
At the end of the day, the BCS concerns itself with only a few bowl games. The rest are left to whoever isn’t chosen by the BCS, and the BCS has nothing at all to do with them.
I agree with you that you could scrap the traditional bowls and form a playoff. But people are going to resist that, particularly conferences like the Pac-10 and Big 10 with brand bowls like the Rose Bowl, which had to be dragged kicking and screaming into the BCS. Without their willing participation, it would never work.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK lets adjust to what you stated
The traditional bowls dont fit into a playoff system. You are probably right, but they were not originally intended to do that. They were intended to showcase 2 teams from differing conferences to compare their power and to put on a good show. It was only after the development by the media of a mythical national champion that they were pressed into this service.
As far as buying into a bowl goes, here is the way I see it…..we play in the SEC. We are only required to play in 8 SEC games. The other 4 games on our schedule are at “our discretion” We are required to win 6 games to go to a bowl game under current “rules” If I am any AD and all I care about is going to a bowl game to keep the money people happy, then I “buy” the other 4 games and I only have to win 2 SEC games each year to go bowling. Call it selective scheduling, call it shrewd business, call it whatever you like, but 4 patsies will gladly line up and come to Commonwealth Stadium each year for a big payday and let us whip their tails.
Now we here in Kentucky have the UK-UL game which is not always going to be that way, it just happens to be that way now. So we take a chance on 1 out of 4 of those games each year. We used to be able to count on teams like MSU for a guaranteed win within the conference, but now that has gone out the door. So in our case its Louisville, 3 nobodies,Vandy, and we hope for the best on the other 7 games. You know our SEC East foes so I am not going to go through each one, but most of those are losses going in when you look at them from a realistic standpoint. So we do one of two things. We live with what we have which is lousy at best, because 75% of the season is predetermined going in ( I know this is arguable, but its a lot of arguing for nothing). Or Two, and I happen to like this one better, we dont allow ourselves to live and die by that trip to the state of Tennessee each year( I hear now that we may have been relegated to the Independence Bowl), and we play teams that will help us make an identity for ourselves that isnt the team that Florida, Tennessee, Georgia, South Carolina, LSU, and Bama beat up on every year. Being in the SEC for football does nothing except bring in the money for Kentucky. Admittedly that is a big exception, but it seems as though by everyone’s estimation we have to live with being one of the conferences’ tackling dummies.
Of course this only works if we win. But if we are sitting at 6-2 and our only losses are to #1 Florida and #2 Bama, and we have beaten 4 other teams that rank 1-50, dont we deserve enough respect to be a ranked team in the top 25? Ohio State has 2 losses and they are in the top 15 (as of right now).
I guess my overall point to this is that as long as we continue to follow along mindlessly with this game plan the SEC and all the other conferences have laid out for us, as well as everyone else, things will never change.
I have said it before and I will say it again, the definition of stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting a different result.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
… the whole national championship thing is still mythical. There isn’t one in football, we just accept the BCS champion as our leader and call them the national champion, but that’s demonstrably false. Even the BCS is not so full of itself that it claims the BCS champion is the national champion.
So I take it that you agree with me that there is no way to keep the traditional bowls in place and still have a playoff. That’s one of the major arguments against a playoff, but a lot of the “playoff or bust” people don’t care about tradition, they want a single-elimination football tournament and damn the tradition to hell. I don’t think that’s either necessary or fair. The BCS tries to give us some of both, and succeeds in a small way.
You’re right about the definition of stupidity, but the bottom line is that virtually all major conference college football teams “buy” (to use your terminology) at least two wins. So what we are quibbling about here is one lousy game. That means we have to have at least one and arguably two meaningful wins in conference, (i.e. against a team not named Vanderbilt) when Louisville comes out of its current funk.
I don’t see why that is a problem for two reasons — 1) it levels the playing field, and 2) it gives these teams what they want, and need, to improve – a big payday. Not a bad tradeoff for a game against a markedly superior team.
There is nothing “mindless” about it. But for a Hartline injury and a poor game against MSU, we could easily be 7-2 right now. The margin for error for Kentucky is going to be pretty small until we are able to build up our depth, which is happening right now.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 5:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is exactly correct....you hit the nail right on the head when you said
that virtually ALL major conference college football teams “buy” at least 2 wins……if we stop that practice we might just take the first step to getting this right.
And you are also correct that the Cats are a game and a drive away from being 7-2. So with the margin for error so small, it leads me to think there is no way that the Cats are going to do anything different for the forseeable future.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
… there is the other side to “buying” wins, which has to do with spreading the wealth of college football. Are you saying that the benefit to the smaller institutions isn’t wort the price? I think I would disagree.
Finally, I’m sorry to see you so negative about Kentucky’s future prospects. I think many UK fans have unreasonable expectations of how long it takes to get over that hump.
Myself, I’m staying positive, while recognizing reality for what it is.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 11, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My comment was not toward expectations,
just toward the methods we use to improve.
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 9:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Boise State
won’t get any takers, and then supporters of the elite conferences can say (again) “Boise State doesn’t deserve a BCS bowl because they don’t play anyone.”
There needs to be a playoff. Eight teams, and if the remaining fifty bowls want to invite the teams left out, they’re free to do so. Hell, go ahead and eliminate the six win minimum; that way one year Notre Dame can go winless and still get a bowl bid.
by don'tshootmei'macard on Nov 9, 2009 11:15 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I agree with all but one thing. I think it should go as deep as the bowl qualifiers.
but look this over and tell me what you think…..
It seems reasonable to me…Then they can make the rest of the bowl games consolation prizes if they like……
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 6:54 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not an elegant solution ...
… but a practical one.
I don’t think it will happen for a lot of reasons, most of them not particularly defensible. The teams left out would still cry “Unfair!!”, and their congress-critters would threaten to sic the feds on … who knows, somebody.
Would it be better than what we have now? Sure. Will it ever happen? I’d bet a fair sum of money against it. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 7:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
So maybe they add a "Wildcard" Bowl???....lol....
that would allow for the “best of the rest” to have a shot….And your’e right, it probably never will happen, but what they do now is a crime….or it at least should be a misdemeanor….. ;-)
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 10, 2009 7:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, no, not a crime of any kind ...
… but it is obviously imperfect, and is inequitable to smaller conferences. It’s the latter that gets everybody’s panties in a twist.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 8:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The problem with your argument
is that you seem to think that intercollegiate sports (i.e. football and basketball) are for the fans. They have never been and were never meant to be. They were created for the students and when they realized they could make lots of money on them, they became money generating businesses. The BCS and the bowl system, much as I dislike it, is for the students and the schools. The number of bowls allow more students to participate and it provides more money to the schools. Plus, technically, more fans get to go to games.
If you want a playoff system, it should not be eight. It should be 16 just as the lower divisions do. The way you fit it in is to eliminate a game from the regular season. The lower divisions don’t play 12 games, or at least they didn’t when I kept up with them.
by wklawdog on Nov 10, 2009 3:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That would surely work.
Of course, all the traditional bowl rivalries would be kaput in such an arrangement. They never really existed in the lower divisions, so it cost them nothing to implement a playoff.
The playoff system comes at a cost. For me, I could really care less – I’m fine with what we have, and I would be fine with a playoff, but I would miss the Rose Bowl pageantry, and some of the other traditional bowls. But I don’t go to a Pac-10 or Big 10 school, and Kentucky is not Alabama, so I could live with it.
But a part of me would hate to see it die.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 5:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's look at it differently
Under the current bowl system, close to twenty teams get wins to end their season. Look at us, for crying out loud. We are proud to have three straight bowl wins. I think that’s good for the game. Why does it always have to be some sort of alpha dog, who’s #1? College Football isn’t College Basketball. Enjoy the difference. A difference forged through decades of tradition that should be honored. And enjoyed, allowed to evolve, and continue.
IMHO
No matter where you're at, there you are
by cincyblue on Nov 10, 2009 8:16 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That argument ...
… makes as much sense as anything else I’ve heard, and more sense than most.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 10, 2009 11:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have no problem with that with one very glaring exception
That is the measuring stick that is used to judge your program and how much respect you command in college football. If the bowls were no big deal then why does everyone claim the “3 in a row” title when they discuss our success.I am perfectly willing to admit that the system while not perfect, does have rewards for those teams that see a bowl game.
No one asks Ohio State if they should be a ranked football team, they just are. Every stinking year, whether or not the “experts” agree, Ohio State figures into the polls. If the SEC is as good as we feel like it is, then where would we be in say the Big Ten, Big East, or Big 12???
If the 5th best team in the SEC, is better than most other conferences #1, then we should be garnering more respect from what we have accomplished.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 9:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
UK gets the same deference ...
… in college basketball as OSU does in football. As does North Carolina, and UConn, and many others.
I’m not sure why that is a problem. Upstarts like UK football have to earn that respect by beating somebody.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 11, 2009 9:13 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK....who do we have to beat to get ranked????
we have losses to the #1 Gators, #2 Bama,#24 S Carolina, and Miss St.
I too take the MSU loss to heart, because without it, our only loss to a team that is not top 5 was due to an injury. Surely that gets us some respect does it not?
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 9:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would say ...
… if we win the next three games, we would wind up in or near the top 25.
You get ranked by having a winning record, and at least a .500 record in conference.
Since when does losing get you respect, in the SEC of all places? I’m just askin’…
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 11, 2009 9:36 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well, if the only teams that beat you are #1and #2
it should be pretty easy. The SC and MSU losses killed us….but as you say, that is only an injury away from being 6-3…..I just have a hard time believing that if we are as strong in the SEC as we AND the experts believe we are, that a 2 loss OSU team is that much better than we are IF we are 100% healthy. This injury thing has me just tore up….I know they happen, but we seem to get WAY too many.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
We aren’t the only team that had injuries though. Or suspensions.
OSU is a better team if we had all playing today, yesterday and any time in the near future.
Notice on Mr. SEC the ranking of the teams in recruiting so far. That is an indicator of where we stand in the minds of young recruits.
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
by ParisGuy on Nov 11, 2009 12:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
more than that
thirty four at last count.
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
by ParisGuy on Nov 11, 2009 12:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tell me
ABC, what is your feelings about the over all direction of the program under Brooks/Phillips? Are we just one or two years away from breaking into the top three in the Eastern Division? Florida, Georgia and Tennessee. South Carolina is a big jump. You say not? Why haven’t we beaten them before now, at least once then under the above coaches?
Is the future of the program in the best hands or putting it another way, are we going to progress with what we have in the coaching staff? I don’t know how old you are but are you seeing the Cats winning the Eastern Dviision any time in YOUR lifetime?
Just thought I would ask.
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
by ParisGuy on Nov 11, 2009 12:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I dont see us doing anything other than what we have been doing the last 3-5 years.
Honestly for the reasons I stated WAAAAYYY back up the thread….
You don’t do the same thing over and over and expect a different result each time. We did what we had to do to get to this point. That was to eliminate the “loser” identity that we once had. We have victories over Bama and LSU in the last few years. We now win more than we lose annually. That was a huge first step, but it is only a first step.
We now need to take the next step, which is getting 4-5 star talent in here every year. I dont completely believe in the rankings of high schoolers, but we have done what we have done with vastly inferior talent to the big guns. This program needs to set a goal, no, more than a goal, a mandate, to sign at least 2 of the 4-5 star athletes every year now. 1 offense and 1 defense. 2 of each if possible. If it is a QB, fine, a RB thats fine too, but I would be happy with O-line and D-line guys. We are now having players drafted into the NFL on all levels. That means we have coaching talent in our ranks. We are getting some really good kids. Now it is time to step up and walk in the door right beside Nick Saban and be able to tell a kid, “How would you like to be the guy that gives us our first win over Florida?” We put players in the NFL too.
I just have not yet seen from any of our staff the “gumption” if you will, to get us those kids, IN SPITE OF WHAT SOME PUNDITS THINK. We never get over that hump unless we get the talent.
Winning big in my lifetime??…maybe….I have 40 years of watching the Cats do a lot of things. The last 10 years have been fairly amazing in my estimation, frankly because I had never seen anyone put this much time and effort into football since the days of Claiborne. We were always happy to be a basketball school.
I loved to watch Hal Mumme’s offense, but his defense scared the living daylights out of me. Bill Curry was a moron when Bama had him, and he didnt disprove it when he came to UK either. I think Hal Morriss was a decent enough guy, but not the man that was going to make this program relevant again. When Brooks was hired I was one of, if not the most vocal about my dislike of the hire in the state. Brooks has turned out to prove me wrong, in 2 ways. He is great in getting a lot out of kids, and 2 he is a good firm hand with the program. His offense is kind of boring at times, but Phillips changed some of that. I really think Brooks would make a great AD somewhere, if he felt like he had the energy to do that job, because anymore, it really takes it.Brooks gets an overall grade of B with me, simply because he seems to be kind of stuck in neutral. I honestly dont know what to say about Joker. He shows flashes of brilliance at times, and pounds of stupidity at others.
Is Joker the guy to take us over the top? I dont know, but since I was wrong about Brooks, I will give Barnhart the benefit of the doubt on this one and wait to see. The real question is, “How long will we wait?” 3-4 more years of Brooks and then putting Phillips in place means that we are 5-8 years out from seeing what Phillips can do with his own talent. That, my friend, is a long time to wait. But we were 50 years getting to this point….lol….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't hijack the thread.
This is supposed to be about the BCS versus a playoff, or bowls in general.
If you want to talk for the 155,000th time about “the direction of the program” or whether Brooks/Phillips/Barnhart should be fired/replaced/retired/taken out back and shot, please start a thread on that topic.
Thanks for understanding.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 11, 2009 5:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didnt mind Tru....but thanks for speaking up.....
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by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Candidly Speaking
This whole subject seems to me to be the classic: solution searching for a problem. Using whatever criteria you choose the SEC is thriving beyond the highest expectations and shows no signs of peaking.
"Learn(ing) without thinking begets ignorance. Think(ing) without learning is dangerous."
-Confucius
by Wild Weasel on Nov 11, 2009 6:32 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
That ...
… certainly seems right to me.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Nov 11, 2009 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That is probably closer to the truth than I would like to have to admit....lol
M gripe is that some are benefitting while others are, and I am quoting another article here “the doormats of the SEC”. They were referring to us and Vandy.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 11, 2009 6:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
And the conclusion is
So have we figured out just were the Cats stand in the SEC picture overall?
Just a few years away?
Aboiut were we always will be?
There is always basketball?
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
by ParisGuy on Nov 12, 2009 10:32 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Conclusion....the SEC doesnt want it to change so it wont
they are making money…..the schools are making money…..no one wants to rock the boat. Being a UK football fan is akin to being a Cubs baseball fan……always a bridesmaid, never the bride.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Nov 12, 2009 11:53 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
September 4th, 2011
I just checked the future schedules for the Cats and they don’t have any one scheduled for September 4th, 2011.
Should we take the challege? Playing Boise State at our place? Home game. Why not?
Well, it would mess up the formula of Barnhart/Brooks. That is suppose to be a buy game. A beat em up and one of the sacred six. Taking a chance that may end up in a loss is certainly not what we want when it comes to opponents.
Why treat the ticket holders to a game against a pretty good school when you can bring in some one of Norfork State’s caliber?
I believe by then there will be at least two more bowls. Pushing the total participants to 72. Why risk it? That means only 48 schools won’t get that extra month of practice, a watch and get to play in balmy Tennessee.
We hopefully will have everything worked out and will be our of the ‘baby step’ formula by then.
We won’t?
Nothing expected, no disappointments. Its worked so far. Why expect something different?
I have be correctly accused of having a 'football fetish'. You know, someone who doesn't think football is the warm up sport to basketball season.
by ParisGuy on Nov 12, 2009 12:53 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

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