Coal ➔ Diamonds
by Wild Weasel on Oct 25, 2009 9:27 PM EDT
23 comments
On a recent Fanshot it was stated that Brooks may have found another diamond - somewhere in the seams of coal that make up UK's recruiting space. Which poses the question: Why is UK required to assume the alchemist role of turning players of base metal into those of something more precious? Following is a list of SEC FB commits thus far and recognizing that it's November and signing day isn't until February it still causes a fan to ponder the recruiting ineptitude that places UK behind the likes of UTEP and Akron:
3. LSU 22 commitments 0 — 14 — 8 — 3.64 Avg.
5. Alabama 21 commitments 1 — 10 — 8 — 3.48 Avg.
6. Tennessee 20 commitments 0 — 11 9 — 3.55 Avg.
7. Florida 17 commitments 1 — 11 — 5 — 3.76 Avg.
8. Georgia 18 commitments 1 — 9 — 8 — 3.61 Avg.
12. Auburn 19 commitments 0 — 7 — 11 — 3.32 Avg.
31. South Carolina 18 commitments 0 — 3 — 11 — 2.61 Avg.
43. Ole Miss 11 commitments 0 — 2 — 9 — 3.18 Avg.
48. Mississippi State 13 commitments 0 — 2 — 8 — 2.46 Avg.
51. Vanderbilt 21 commitments 0 — 0 — 18 — 2.86 Avg.
52. Arkansas 14 commitments 0 — 1 — 10 — 2.51 Avg.
79. Kentucky 14 commitments 0 — 0 — 7 — 1.79 Avg.
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The conventional wisdom
that winning 3 straight bowl games and having a coaching continuity plan would help in recruiting isn’t working out that way. I certainly understand and fully appreciate the difficulties in recruiting that we face in THIS conference, but getting out-recruited by teams in lesser conferences is disheartening. Granted Akron and UTEP do draw from deeper talent pools, your point is taken.
I’m going to hold out hope that the staff is making serious inroads with the bigger fish that like to wait until later to commit, and take their word on it this year. It is a calculated risk that I think they have to take to try to move on up.
"The IQ of a mob is the IQ of its most stupid member divided by the number of mobsters." --Terry Pratchett
by Ontherocks on Oct 25, 2009 10:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Why?
Why are we debating this yet again, for the 1,500th time this season? All these questions have been asked and answered, maybe not to the satisfaction of some, but that is always going to be the case.
This is beginning to remind me of the Tubby debates — opinions have become calcified and are continuously regurgitated in “why can’t we recruit like Alabama and Tennessee” questions. We seem to get them at least once a week.
Is there nobody willing to ask this question in a meaningful way, adding something of value — like giving examples of schools similar to UK who have done more with less, or who are doing less with more, or something along those lines? It’s frustrating to see the “Why can’t we recruit better in football” asked over and over and over again ad infinitum in a “second verse, same as the first” sort of way.
I’m not picking on the author, I could have made this comment any one of a dozen times this year, this was just the straw that broke the camel’s back.
Is it too much to ask for an original thought on this subject if we are going to dedicate yet another Fanpost to it?
Somebody come in and rescue this thing — I’m too tired of debating it to care.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 26, 2009 8:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
actually Tru he was questioning the being rated behind UTEP and Akron
….lol….not Alabama and Tennessee….relax….you just gotta let these things be…..there are just now a group of us that wont accept status quo anymore for football. It isnt a debate, just a fact.
As the recruits improve it will go away…..in a decade or two…..personally I think it is good that it stays in the forefront of the discussions….only way to make it better is to work on it….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 8:56 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
we get 8-9 wins this year, we will take a break from it, I promise.....lol
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 8:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But then again, maybe not
Weasel, you get my apologies, but I am about to hijack your blog.
Tru I know you tire of this debate, but I put it to you that it must continue and if it doesn’t, it will be to the detriment of the team AND this site.
I know you like lists Tru, so here you go.
1) As long as recruiting stays at the forefront of our football discussions, it will get picked up on by media types that actually do get to ask the questions that need to be asked of the staff and coaches at UK. Our site carries some weight with the big guns, they read it and they do take notice.
2) I think that everyone that joins this debate does it with only the school’s best interests at heart. We only have one really negative detractor on the site, and he doesnt hammer on football much, so all of the discussion is appropriate.
3) I know this one is going to kill you, but, this idea that recruiting is hampered by who we are and where we are, is just an opinion. Admittedly it is shared by some media members that are knowledgeable. But that does not make it fact, and even if it did, there should be nothing that we cannot bring up about the program on here and discuss it rationally.
4) As long as it continues to get discussed, the subject may actually bring to light some answers that may surprise not only us on here, but they might really help out in the actual recruiting. I know it is a long shot, but sometimes good ideas come from the strangest places.
5) ASOB does not want to appear as though we are a basketball only site. This would only help perpetuate the myth that we are a basketball only school.
6) No one is more passionate about their athletics than UK. The fans need an outlet to discuss and rationalize that passion…..ASOB provides a “thinking man’s insight” into the program and all of it’s little idiosyncracies(spelling???). You have on more than one occasion shown us all the light on certain subjects, but there have been countless times where a contributor has brought information into the discussion that no one else knew. Let’s not take away from that.
7) Last point…….I would love to see this site become the hub for all things in UK athletics. You have the right approach, the right kinds of contributors with varied interests, and they all love what they do here. It’s all good, and you make that happen.
Embrace the love Tru…..lol…..let the hate wash over everyone else.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 10:10 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think you understand.
I am not placing this topic off limits in any way. I am simply suggesting that nobody is adding anything new here, it just amounts to a whine when people ask “why does our recruiting not stack up to [fill in the blank]?”
All this stuff about passion is fine, but passion isn’t an excuse for mindless griping. If we are going to criticize recruiting, let’s do it cogently without hyperbole and irrelevancies. There have been tons of pixels spilled explaining why recruiting at Kentucky has historically been difficult. Ignoring those realities is just asking a question that has already been answered and debated ad infinitum.
All I ask is for people to think before they gripe, and propose solutions or at least try to offer explanations which can be debated with something other than “Brooks and Phillips aren’t getting it done,” or some derivative thereof.
Don’t just ask questions of the darkness, light a candle for God’s sake and try to examine the issue in a way that can be debated meaningfully, not just rehashed by linking a thousand old posts. Passion is no defense for mindlessly reiterating old complaints over and over, and we have seen just that on this issue.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 26, 2009 10:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ok, let's light the candle.....
What you see as a “whine” may be what another person feels is their only outlet for the frustration they are feeling concerning the status of recruiting, or any other subject.
Personally, I think Ryan Lemond hit the nail on the head concerning the game the other day in his article that you highlighted yesterday.Now, that is not about recruiting, but it is a good example of what the fanbase gets tired of seeing. The whole team seemed to take a whole quarter off there Sat night. It’s frustrating beyond belief.
Some of us see this recruiting situation the same way. You brush aside our arguments as nonsense, or not being thought through completely.
I personally think that anyone who believes that something cannot be done because of who you are, or where you are, or because of what everyone else does is a prime example of utter nonsense. But it is my opinion, and I understand that.
Providing a fresh look into the situation is not always easy for posters or commentors due to the amount of time it takes to gather and organize the information it takes to hold a debate. I submit to you that having someone that works on these things more than the average reader may be a solution to the problem. Not being able to articulate their thoughts or to disseminate the information they read may be a fault of some of our posters, but that “is what it is”.
A person can be right, even if they dont have a ton of research to back it up. I would think that since this site is dedicated to the fans, maybe we need to allow for those folks to “vent” without requiring them to give three resources, and a outline of their thought process. I mean its football, not a college thesis, right??
I know you have a fine line to walk as a moderator, but there is always going to be a group of fans who believe what they believe regardless fo whether or not they can quote chapter and verse to back it up.That is the passion I refer to. And I dont refer to it as an excuse for not being informed, I refer to it as a reason to be here.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I don't brush anything aside as nonsense.
The problem is, it becomes nonsense all by itself when it is regurgitated over and over again ad infinitum.
Providing a fresh look into the situation is not always easy for posters or commentors due to the amount of time it takes to gather and organize the information it takes to hold a debate. I submit to you that having someone that works on these things more than the average reader may be a solution to the problem. Not being able to articulate their thoughts or to disseminate the information they read may be a fault of some of our posters, but that "is what it is".
Oh, please! So what you’re telling me is that it’s too tough for folks to engage their brain (and Google) and try to figure out why something might be, so I should just let constant, repetative whining go uncritically by?
Not on this blog. Remember the motto — Kentucky Sports for the discerning fan. We demand more of fans here than The Cats Pause or other sites. That’s what makes us different.
A person can be right, even if they dont have a ton of research to back it up. I would think that since this site is dedicated to the fans, maybe we need to allow for those folks to "vent" without requiring them to give three resources, and a outline of their thought process. I mean its football, not a college thesis, right??
First of all, it isn’t about right or wrong. How can anyone be “right” about something as subjective as recruiting? Was rivals “right” when they ranked Randall Cobb as a 3* or Trevard Lindley as a 2*? I think we can say that in hindsight, the answer must be “no.” But at the time, it made sense. Plus, players develop, and some develop faster than others.
I don’t ask for a ton of research. What I ask for is critical thinking, and this is not a “venting” blog, in case you haven’t noticed. I don’t allow much venting normally, especially when it goes past the reasonable and becomes unreasonable.
If people want to vent on the same subject over and over, they can vent on somebody else’s blog. The purpose of this one is to intelligently debate Kentucky sports. That’s what sets it apart, and I hold my members to a higher standard.
I know you have a fine line to walk as a moderator, but there is always going to be a group of fans who believe what they believe regardless fo whether or not they can quote chapter and verse to back it up.That is the passion I refer to. And I dont refer to it as an excuse for not being informed, I refer to it as a reason to be here.
It isn’t about belief. If I believe that Rich Brooks is the second coming, or that Joker Phillips hung the moon, that’s irrelevant. I can’t make a cogent case for either. But at the same time, I can make the case they Kentucky football has improved under their regime, and that recruiting has improved also. But that doesn’t make me “right.” Recruiting is subjective, and one man’s diamond is another man’s lump of coal.
Quite honestly, the thing that galls me is that we get the same argument presented over and over with nothing new. Why do that? It’s been done. It’s been debated. If there is nothing left to be said, or if the only alternative is saying the same thing over and over, why say anything?
All I’m asking for is something to make the tired subject less tired, and worth talking about.
In the instant debate, what we are doing is accepting Rivals rankings as defining us. That doesn’t mean that Rivals recruiting ranking are wrong or bad, but that reality suggests that there is less difference between the 3*’s and 4*’s than everyone thinks. 5*’s now, are different. Those are guys that are program-changers. They are players who are ready to contribute from day 1, and are usually NFL ready in two or three years.
But when was Kentucky’s last 5* player? Tim Couch?
There are two ways to be good in football. One of them is to recruit good but not great players and get them to stay for four or five years. The other is to get studs and have them leave after two or three. UK is understandably, and for reasons aforementioned, going down the first path. And it works, it just takes more time, and requires that you schedule smart and stay out of trouble with the NCAA.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 26, 2009 12:44 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, I will try not to "regurgitate ad infinitum" any of this,
I will say this much though. We discuss UK Football and Basketball here with more than an informed view of both the programs and their participants. Being the “discerning” fans that we are, we try our best to make our points without seeming less than genuine, or “fluffed up” as it were, on the subject matter. Our opinions are exactly that, and your point about
Quite honestly, the thing that galls me is that we get the same argument presented over and over with nothing new. Why do that? It’s been done. It’s been debated. If there is nothing left to be said, or if the only alternative is saying the same thing over and over, why say anything?is well received. But I think it makes that point for myself as well. The only way to get new info, or opinions, or viewpoints is to discuss it.
As far as venting goes,
What I ask for is critical thinking, and this is not a "venting" blog, in case you haven’t noticed. I don’t allow much venting normally, especially when it goes past the reasonable and becomes unreasonable.
If people want to vent on the same subject over and over, they can vent on somebody else’s blog. The purpose of this one is to intelligently debate Kentucky sports. That’s what sets it apart, and I hold my members to a higher standard.
If this were literally the case, you would have tossed out the Hoze King a long time ago. And quite possibly a few more of us as well.
I myself think that most everyone on here is exactly the type of fan you seem to desire as a follower for the site. But people get frustrated and do not understand why we must accept what we have as the best we can do. Nothing is going to change that.
And if we had all of the answers to the questions there would be a different HCIW up in Lexington,and possibly a new head coach as well, but instead we have bloggers who try their best to make their points about those things that we love and hate.
I hope I am misunderstanding you in what seems to be a “high and mighty” attitude concerning the site. I have never thought of anyone on here to be “stuck up”, or ever been “talked down to” by anyone else. We have our verbal jousts, but they are done in good spirit so they dont get under anyone’s skin. I just think the questions are never going to go away until they have been answered. And so far I havent heard any difinitive answers on the recruting situation. A lot of opinions have come out, but no difinitive answers.
This place has always been fun and informative, and I dont think that anything done by anyone on here is an attempt to take away from that….just a bunch of Blue Bloods trying to be heard.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 1:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
This ...
If this were literally the case, you would have tossed out the Hoze King a long time ago. And quite possibly a few more of us as well.
… is fair criticism. I’m afraid I was perpetrating a bit of a double-standard — one for HK and one for everyone else. That will no longer be the case.
I hope I am misunderstanding you in what seems to be a "high and mighty" attitude concerning the site. I have never thought of anyone on here to be "stuck up", or ever been "talked down to" by anyone else. We have our verbal jousts, but they are done in good spirit so they dont get under anyone’s skin. I just think the questions are never going to go away until they have been answered. And so far I havent heard any difinitive answers on the recruting situation. A lot of opinions have come out, but no difinitive answers.
You are, in a way, but maybe not in another way.
It isn’t so much about the questions as the way they are asked. One may legitimately question something without being repetitive, and make for useful conversation. But what I see is just asking questions of the darkness, and calcified opinions.
And you will excuse me if I demand more of my readers than others sites do. I don’t apologize for that, and won’t stop doing it. If that makes me “high and mighty,” I’ll gladly accept that as high praise, whether it was meant as a compliment or not. :-)
As I tried to point out, though, there are no definitive answers, but there are many definitive facts which have been discussed — UK’s lack of tradition, tough place geographically, lack of native talent and perception as football as always being far behind basketball. Those have and will continue to have a major impact on recruiting.
When we start to acknowledge the reality of those facts, and facts they are, it’s fair to ask what can be done to improve the situation. But all I see are moans, groans, and finger-pointing. Not productive, in my opinion.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 26, 2009 2:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont see any need to excuse anyone
and I am not going to start all over again about what is fact and what is opinion. You see some information as fact, and some information I will admit is readily accepted where other information is not.
I guess I have a bit of Missouri stubbornness in me, because I cannot, and will not assume that just because someone puts information down on paper, (or the net) it is fact. I know a professor in my college days that could take a piece of paper and show you how 1=0. Now, true ot not, the paper said so, and it may make it a fact in someone else’s eyes, but not mine.
I do take a small, but important issue with this statement
But all I see are moans, groans, and finger-pointing.
I didnt see any of that in this thread. Not one ounce. All Weasel did in his inimitable literary style was ask a question.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 3:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really?
Following is a list of SEC FB commits thus far and recognizing that it’s November and signing day isn’t until February it still causes a fan to ponder the recruiting ineptitude that places UK behind the likes of UTEP and Akron:
So what was that? See my response to WW below for more enlightenment.
Couching objective facts as excuses is not rational. Excuses are things that shouldn’t matter. Objective facts always do.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 26, 2009 3:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tru,
we are dead last (in that publication) in recruiting in the SEC….and if we ARE behind UTEP and Akron as stated above, I might be inclined to word my post a little more harshly myself. Maybe ineptitude is too much, but what do we call it?….cautious diligence??
Admittedly I didnt go back and look it all up, but it does seem as though we are taking a REALLY big leap of faith here to assume we will end up with a great recruiting class.
If I am wrong, then so be it. But the question is still out there hanging bigger than the sun on a hot august day.
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 3:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well, okay ...
… how about a new approach? This has been addressed by the coaching staff. They told us not to sweat this. Couldn’t we wait until, I don’t know, after national signing day before we go nuclear on this?
Just askin’.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 26, 2009 4:06 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fine by me.....but I hadnt actually gone nuclear now
had I??….lol
But I will pose a question now, just so it is on the record….How should we percieve this if national signing day comes and goes and we are still “bringing up the rear”???….so to speak….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
I’ll let you know in a few months. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 26, 2009 6:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Numerical Data
Numerical data were available that, in my mind, provided a bit of insight into the progress of UK FB recruiting, plus rendered information that could substantiate the claims by many on this and other sites that UK’s recruiting, which had shown some progress in recent years, was in danger of a retroversion to lesser levels. The purpose of making the data available was not to foment further discussion or debate – although to avoid recognizing a delterious situation is no way to address or correct it – rather to provide interested fans an added and hopefully useful view into the current status of the program’s future. As to ascertaining the difficulties confronting FB recruiting at UK I’ve stated my views previously: demographiy, geography and concentration of resources.
"Learn(ing) without thinking begets ignorance. Think(ing) without learning is dangerous."
-Confucius
by Wild Weasel on Oct 26, 2009 1:38 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
The coaching staff has stated on previous occasions not to fear the slow pace of commitment, because they were trying to persuade more talented players to come than in previous years, rather than sopping up the 3* leftovers from South Carolina, LSU, Alabama and elsewhere around the SEC. If you look at UK’s recruiting, you will see that is exactly what has happened over the years. At least now we are able to get the 3*’s and not the 2*’s and below.
But bringing in better players necessarily means waiting longer. They want to see that UK is improving, that they won’t backslide and become the doormat they were five years ago. Nobody wants to pass on a place like UT or Alabama unless they have a chance to become big time players on a team that people will care about.
Brooks has been known to take fliers on unranked recruits with good success, perhaps the most recent example being Derrick Locke, who was unranked by Rivals out of high school. A couple of other examples are Taylor Windham and Collins Ukuwu, both ranked only 2* but now seeing significant time at DE, Stevie Johnson who was a 2* out of junior college, Zipp Duncan, a 2* TE out of high school who now anchors one of the most experienced and capable O-lines in the SEC regardless of school, Jeremy Jarmon, a 2* DE who is now playing in the NFL, Braxton Kelly, a 2* DE who became one of UK’s best ever linebackers, Sam Maxwell, a 2* DE who is playing some great football as a senior starter.
Brooks is very big on developing players, and really good at it. For example, Raymond Saunders was unranked by Rivals when Brooks recruited him, and he got no attention. He is now a 3* and may reach 4* status by the end of the year. You see a bunch of unranked players there right now, but they won’t be unranked by year’s end.
A lot of people criticize Brooks for spending so much time looking for the “under the radar” guys, and to his credit, he is trying to do less of that as UK gets better. But he has an excellent history of player development, and as UK’s depth has increased in quality at every position, you will probably see less and less of that. But it won’t go away. Recognizing undeveloped talent is apparently something he takes great pride in.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 26, 2009 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
again Weasel, my apologies for hijacking your blog....
I kind of went off in left field there for a bit…..I wont infringe on you again…..normally I get on my own soapbox when I want to preach….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 26, 2009 4:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Perspective
during the ULM game, they asked who the all time winningest coach at uk was…Bear Bryant. he has not been here for almost 60 years and is still the winningest coach.
my point is that we are building a program from the ground up – it does not happen over night. 3 bowl games in a row of ANY kind is great.
i feel like brooks has been establishing a beachhead over the past few years and is now working inward toward the better recruits. perhaps we could have gotten a big name coach – not going there, that would be “old” ground per Tru :) – but i do agree with tru that we need to give it til national signing day…
and given our recent (last 60 years) history, it is amazing there is still any interest!!
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Oct 26, 2009 4:48 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The Perspective of UK football is......
as stated :
“there are many definitive facts which have been discussed — UK’s lack of tradition, tough place geographically, lack of native talent and perception as football as always being far behind basketball. Those have and will continue to have a major impact on recruiting.
When we start to acknowledge the reality of those facts, and facts they are, it’s fair to ask what can be done to improve the situation. But all I see are moans, groans, and finger-pointing. Not productive, in my opinion."
Plus…….“the all time winningest coach at uk was…Bear Bryant. he has not been here for almost 60 years and is still the winningest coach.”
That is the reality of UK football.
I went to my first UK football game at Stoll Field in 1955, I was 6 years old…..UK football, aside from the last 3 years, hasn’t changed much……we still lose more than we win. And, we lost that first game I attended.
Coach Brooks knows what he is doing and so far he is doing it the right way! I have always kept the faith and will continue to do same!! GO BLUE!!!
by seattlekat on Oct 27, 2009 6:08 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
All I know is ...
… UK football used to get very little of my attention. Now, it gets a lot. Anecdotally, something must have improved.
The question implicit in the now-annual hand-winging over recruiting is “Why can’t we have the bigger, better deal like Florida and Alabama? If they can do it, we can do it. This coaching staff is holding us back.”
I admire the attitude, while being somewhat bemused by the naïveté implicit in it. The way to a bigger, better deal has always been paved by patience and hard work, something UK is doing right now, both in recruiting and in practice. Could some other coaching staff do better? Possibly. Is it worth throwing out the current staff to get that, or breaking our word to Joker Phillips?
In my opinion, hell no.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 27, 2009 7:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Same here
All I know is … UK football used to get very little of my attention. Now, it gets a lot. Anecdotally, something must have improved.
Agreed, though I am much younger than you. Growing up in Ashland, my grandparents had UK football season tickets, but rarely went and never once took me. I was in my early 20s before I ever saw a UK football game, and even then, I cared very little about it.
On the other hand, I saw my first UK basketball game before I was 10, and even traveled once per season to see an away game with my grandmother (South Carolina one year, Georiga the next, etc.).
Now, I follow football just as much as basketball, and consider myself a ridiculous, obsessed fan of both. The past three seasons have helped that – I remember the win over Georgia in 2006 and the subsequent bowl victory over Clemson that year as really opening my eyes to an improving Kentucky program.
Man is least himself when he talks in his own person. Give him a mask, and he will tell you the truth.
--O.W.
by blbskue on Oct 27, 2009 12:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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