Clearing Up the Wall Questions
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 22, 2009 11:09 PM EDT
in Basketball
36 comments
I am here to clear up all your questions regarding John Wall's eligibility.
Just kidding. What I am really trying to do is sort out relevant from irrelevant, fact from fiction. Here are the facts that we know:
- Brian Clifton was a registered FIBA agent sometime in 2007-2008 while coaching D-One Sports AAU team out of North Carolina. At some point in 2008, he became unregistered as an agent.
- John Wall played for D-One during the time frame that Clifton was a registered agent.
- According to this article from ESPN, Wall playing for Clifton while he was a registered agent constitutes accepting illegal benefits from an agent.
- The NCAA eligibility arm (not the enforcement arm) is investigating, and has been for months.
- As far as UK is concerned, Wall is cleared to play, but SEC commissioner Mike Slive has confirmed to ESPN that there are "eligibility issues" concerning Wall and Renardo Sidney. Sidney's case is not related to Wall's as far as I have been able to determine.
These appear to be the relevant issues:
- The NCAA is trying to determine the monetary amount of benefit Wall may have obtained from Clifton while he was a registered agent.
- If Wall is found to have accepted more than $101 of benefit, he must pay all of it back, plus he may be required to forfeit his eligibility to play in a minimum of 10% of the scheduled games for Kentucky.
- It is possible (but seems very unlikely) that the circumstances could be severe enough that Wall would be forced to forfeit his amateur status (i.e. an agreement with him or the family that is prohibited, etc.)
- The feeling is that the sanction will be minimal, but that is not a fact, but an informed opinion. Take it for what it is worth.
These issues seem to be irrelevant, as I understand the situation:
- John Wall took two unofficial visits to Kentucky. Since the school does not pay anything in unofficial visits, the only way this could be relevant is if Clifton or D-One (which Clifton apparently owns) paid for them during the time Clifton was registered as an agent. That's how I understand it at least.
- John Calipari has no relationship to this problem. The issue would have been identical no matter where Wall went.
Finally, just a small point -- Ryan Kelly, a Rivals 5* Duke signee, was also a D-One player on Wall's team. Unless Kelly joined D-One after Clifton was de-certified as an agent, it would seem that he suffers from the same difficulty as Wall, although no one has mentioned that so far that I know of. There may be other NCAA players involved, but I'm not sure.
At this point, I am chilly about this whole situation. This looks like unethical behavior by Clifton to me, and I don't see any problem with Wall unless he was aware of Clifton's status as an agent, which would greatly complicate matters in my opinion. High school players learn at an early age that they may not associate like that with agents, and if Wall was somehow aware of Clifton's status, the sanction could be more severe.
This points up a really big problem in the AAU -- there should be no way a registered agent should be allowed to own or coach an AAU squad. It is an obvious conflict of interest for the AAU to allow agents to coach, and it jeopardizes the future of the young men under their charge. In this case, it looks like Clifton may have jeopardized the college futures of every player he coached during his stint as an agent, because the amateur status of all these athletes should now be in question.
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what is exactly constitutes 10%?
Is that ten percent of the regular season or does that include the exhibitions as well? The sad thing abouyt this whole thing is that neither wall nor calipari were at fault at all but they will both receive alotta negative press
by hummer11092 on Oct 22, 2009 11:19 PM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Ten percent of the scheduled games, I suspect.
That would be about 3 games.
Yes, there will be negative press, so what? Embrace the hate. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 22, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Screw the negative press.......let's just sit the kid the first three games to be sure....
it’s not like we don’t have the tools to win those games without him. If the NCAA wants to make things literal, then fine……but if they do not make every kid on that team sit out, then we file a lawsuit and ask for monetary damages for prejudicial treatment…….or whatever the lawyers can hang on them…..get our 3 mil back we lost on BCG……;-)
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 23, 2009 8:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Speaking of the press...
I don’t think its any coincidence that Forde co-penned the ESPN report on this situation.
He has to know that haters will run with this blinders on and ignoring the facts.
I’m kind over “embracing the hate”. I’m ready to get some games going so we can “bring the hurt”.
by scfcats on Oct 22, 2009 11:45 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah,
thanks for the quick rundown. I really wasn’t looking forward to sifting through god knows how many articles in order to figure out what this might possibly mean for Wall now that he is at Kentucky. It’s good to know what the worst case scenario might be.
As far as Wall knowing about Clifton, it was my understanding that Clifton was like a father figure to him. Excuse me, but who isn’t going to follow and go along with whatever their “father” is telling them? Shame on Clifton (assuming he knew what he was doing) if Wall has to suffer the consequences of whatever ridiculous punishment the NCAA may put forth.
by BigSkyCat on Oct 23, 2009 12:34 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
A couple of thoughts....
If Clifton was “like a father” to him and had helped the family since his father died at an early age, then there was a pre existing relationship that made it more ok for wall to have expenses paid for him. remember the rondo stink when a nba player bought him a suv? because it could be established that the nba player (forgot his name) had known him since rondo was very young, it was deemed not a big deal. i know being registered as an agent complicates matters, but i would be using that defense.
Second – i wonder who will be the first national writer to write article pointing out the other college players on clifton’s team? or will that story every get written….
only one rule in my house - uk has to be your favorite college bball team
by memphis wildcat on Oct 23, 2009 12:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's a good point.
A pre-existing relationship of long duration has an impact on the situation. Not sure how it relates to an agent, but it does matter.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 23, 2009 8:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What about Greg Oden?
He had a pre-existing “relationship” with an agent/friend – Mike Conley, Sr. I don’t know if the situations are similar at all or if Conley ever paid any expenses of Oden’s. But there was a relationship there, and Oden ultimately signed with Conley, Sr. as his agent.
by gossie21 on Oct 23, 2009 2:24 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yeah ...
… exactly. I’m not sure how that works, but it is a factor.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 23, 2009 2:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It May Be Different
Was Conley an active NBA agent when he coached Oden in AAU?
Did Conley provide benefits to Oden while he was active NBA agent?
If he did one or both, Oden would have incurred an eligibility penalty and/or had to repay those expenses.
Now a tougher question would involve Conley’s son?
by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 23, 2009 3:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it a tougher question?
Does Dell Curry face questions over Stephon? Does Michael Jordan face questions about Jeff and Marcus? (Funny story about that though… Marcus’ school wears Addidas and he will only wear Air Jordans.) What about Doc Rivers and his kid?
I’m quite certain that you can do anything for your own kid.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Oct 23, 2009 4:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Dell Curry, Michael Jordan, Doc Rivers Are Not NBA Agents
Very few (if any) NBA agents have sons who are NBA caliber players.
by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 23, 2009 5:11 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
the player...
was Derak Anderson was it not?
i've been waiting for this moment all my life...but it's not quite right.
by small balls on Oct 23, 2009 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well
this is not Cal’s fault by any means……..not even Wall’s fault just stupid NCAA rules that are being so literal that its silly..
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Oct 23, 2009 12:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Actually This NCAA Rule Is A Good One
Many NCAA rules are silly but not this particular rule.
by FortyYearCatFan on Oct 23, 2009 6:44 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
This is not a stupid rule at all, it’s just a little too one-sided, like most NCAA rules. The kid gets the punishment for an adult’s poor judgment.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 23, 2009 8:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let me explain
Its not the fule in itself but the way I understood it , he was an agent but did not activities towards being an agent. He has that status solely to keep his business in check.
Kentucky bretheren united once again! Thanks Cal!
by tenken on Oct 23, 2009 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Irrelevant.
The rule is explicit. An agent may not coach amateurs, regardless of his activity level.
Now, as far as severity goes, it probably does matter. If Clifton could show, for example, that he had been actively trying to get de-registered, or that he was not cognizant of the conflict and immediately acted when he became aware, that would help.
But the facts of this case, as I understand them right now, suggest neither. What they suggest is when Clifton went to renew his AAU approval with the NCAA, he could not answer the question about whether or not he was currently registered as an agent and remain an AAU coach. So he got unregistered at that point. All of which suggests deliberate unethical conduct by Clifton.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 23, 2009 1:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good timing
Given the bs ruling on UM after they “cleared” a player I hope UK and the other school(s) will use this as a chance to make a very public and loud point when all the kids are “cleared” to say “are you REALLY positive they are?” Black jack no take backs after we hit the final four.
It would do the sport good for all schools to stand up and say something to them directly as well.
A big WTF is in order if EVERY kid and school is not pulled out in the press.
Great time to question the NCAA and rulings like UM’s.
Changing how you think will change what you think.
by wilson452 on Oct 23, 2009 7:46 AM EDT via mobile reply actions 0 recs
Amen......the question is will they actually listen???
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 23, 2009 8:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The answer ...
… is almost certainly “No.” But you knew that. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 23, 2009 8:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you know me so well.......lol
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 23, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Leave it to Forde....
To try and villainize Calapari again buy linking the Wall situation to Renardo Sidney’s in his article. I don’t know what happened between the two of them (Forde and Calapari), but I wonder if they had words before they fell out. It just seems like Forde will use anything he can find to demonize our new coach. Sure, the Wall story is relevant. I get that. But to portray it in such a manor that you change the dynamics of what is REALLY happening is bad journalism, period. I just hate that Forde is always taking jabs. He is actually a good writer, but lets his beef with Calapari cloud his judgement.
And as far as Clifton is concerned, I hope for the sake of the kids he was coaching during that time, he was not trying to beat the system. The unfortunate thing about these AAU coaches is that they prey on kids with talent. You never know if Clifton is actually a REAL family friend, or a coat-tail rider.
by kyfam4 on Oct 23, 2009 8:39 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I don't know ...
… I didn’t see anything negative toward Calipari in that article. Did I miss something?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 23, 2009 8:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tru
I looked up the word ‘innocent’ in the dictonary and there was a photo of Cal. Clean as the driven snow, a reference to the word ‘anget’.
Anyway, it keeps us in the news in the sports world. That can’t be bad can it?
Its going to be a great ride, one way or the other.
by ParisGuy on Oct 23, 2009 11:21 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
I looked up “Calipari” in the dictionary, and all I found was “Saint Cal the Pure.” :-)
I agree, it will be fun.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 24, 2009 11:18 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forde will be fine as soon as he has his surgical procedure done to remove his
head from Rick Pitino’s backside…..then he will be able to see more clearly….
Remember, we're having fun now!!!
by ALLBLUCAT on Oct 23, 2009 9:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forde is mainly down on UK, Calipari is just a target of opportunity
I’m not sure but I think it goes back to his days at the CJ. I thought his remarks regarding why UK should not be rated the “best of all-time” in college basketball were waaay overboard. He ignored the, “complete history,” premise except for smearing Coach Rupp with his “racist” tarbrush. I believe his animosity toward Coach Calipari would be more because of his close association with Coach Pitino, and the strained relationship between those former friends. He certainly will miss no opportunity to, “kill two birds with one stone,” by dissing both UK and its present coach with his opinions whenever he gets the chance.
I look for Forde’s next co-author to be John Feinstien in a book about how Coach Rupp organized and nurtured the Ku Klux Klan and his alleged involvement with the assassination of Abraham Lincoln.
by MTCAT on Oct 23, 2009 11:08 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Haha!
Yeah, that’s sounds about right.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 23, 2009 12:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Blech
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Oct 23, 2009 9:00 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Worth Noting
Visit the NCAA’s own web site, if you have the stomach for legal gobblydegook, and check out the list of NCAA-approved coaches. You will find that Brian Clifton is once more a member in good standing on that list. It is also worth noting that once he became aware of the conflict, Clifton sought decertification from FIBA as a registered agent.
by Ornery1951 on Oct 23, 2009 8:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That's what he says.
I admit to a bit of skepticism about that story, but it is certainly plausible.
My question is, though, how is it possible for someone as plugged in to NCAA basketball as Clifton to be unaware of the problem with a registered professional agent coaching amateur athletes?
Just askin’.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 24, 2009 11:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Forde, Tipton, Story, and all the others
No way they can have a clear prepective of Kentucky basketball, well, not as well as we all have. What resources would they have that we don’t? A direct line to the athletic director’s office? The sports information director?
I’m with you. Reading a blog from any where si certainly more informative than this so called sports writer’s columns.
by ParisGuy on Oct 23, 2009 11:27 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
That’s funny right there. True, too.
We do the best we can around here, but we don’t have anything like the access Forde and other do, and quite honestly, I make no bones about that. I’m not a reporter and I don’t play one on the Internet. I don’t have any inside access to any part of the program, and I am not trying to get that kind of access. I have a real job, and this isn’t it (even though it often takes up more time than my real job, to the detriment of my marriage.:-)).
At the end of the day, the only thing we can rationally criticize are their opinions. Facts are facts.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Oct 24, 2009 11:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
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