SEC Basketball Power Poll: Week 2
Week two in the SEC Power Poll saw some interesting things happen. Kentucky reasserted itself as a potentially dominant player in the league by defeating Vanderbilt at home and Tennessee on the road. Mississippi State knocked off giant-killer Arkansas in Fayetteville and defeated Alabama at home. A bit of drama, and some of the kinds of inconsistency that we have come to expect from a young and largely rebuilding conference this year.
So how did A Sea of Blue vote? Here is the ballot:
Now, I can fairly hear the shock that UK did not leapfrog Tennessee to the number one spot. The reason is, my formula for calculating the poll is quite conservative. UK has still not received the first vote in the beauty contests and Tennessee has been getting them all year. Not only that, but BBState still ranks Tennessee higher than Florida and Kentucky. Ken Pomeroy now has UK ranked higher than Tennessee or Florida, but Kentucky also lags behind both UT and Florida in the RPI calculation.
Hence, Kentucky is #2 this week. Will that change next week? Probably. After all is said and done, I expect UK to get a significant number of votes in the AP and coach's poll, which should put them over the top. But if so, it will only be by just a little bit.
You can find the aggregated resluts of all the voters in the SEC Power Poll at Garnet and Black Attack.
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my opinion...
Kentucky deserves to be #1 at this point, but I admit, I have no idea what kind of formula you use..lol
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
Might the formula be busted then?
Seems like real world events and W / L record should lead the system, the numbers game might be more useful for tie breaking if those factors cant resolve it.
Welll ...
… it isn’t broken, it’s just conservative. It doesn’t respond well to rapid change because much of it is stats based, and stats change slowly over time the later you get in the season. I have found that it keeps me from ranking teams too high or two low based on events that cover only a short period of time.
I use the same formula for the Blogpoll, and where lots of folks were ranking Boston College and Arkansas, my formula kept them out of the top 25. I think we see now that was the right call.
This type of scheme requires a team to show better or worse performance over a period of more than just a game or so to make a significant move. I include the beauty contests as a component to provide extra impetus for change, but I have made it deliberately conservative to reduce wild swings in the rankings.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I agree a steady rise and fall is better than just completely shaking up everything once a week based on the events of the week. However, we’re looking at a SEC poll so I think it only makes sense to give more weight to the W/L record in conference. Take last years team as an example: UK had a very weak record out of conference but a strong SEC record, thus we had a overall weak record compared to Vandy and Florida yet in the SEC, we did better and should have been considered the stronger SEC team.
I dont mean to convey I think the system is worthless, but perhaps there are aspects that merit more weight than others. I personally think the SEC record is just as important as the teams W/L trend, slightly more important than out of conference record, and significantly more important than any influence of the national polls.
I may have misunderstood, but what is meant by the ‘beauty contests’ when you say, “UK has still not received the first vote in the beauty contests and Tennessee has been getting them all year”?
Well ...
… again, a W/L record right now is just a snapshot in time. It is also a poor indicator, absent the context of opponent quality, of how a team should actually be rated. Keep in mind that UK has only one win that is in or near the top 25 at the time it happened, and that was against Tennessee. It is wise to avoid reading too much into that victory. My system uses a lot of objective information to derive the ranking, not just a W/L record or how a team “looks” to an observer.
I don’t really count the SEC W/L independently yet. I consider it a relatively tenuous measurement when it comes to actual team quality at this early stage. It becomes very important later in the game, though, when the games start to run out. I’ll begin factoring it in about halfway through the season. My polling is designed to respond to the question, “Who is the best team in the SEC,” not “Who is the best team in the SEC today.”
My system attempts to assign more of a time-independent value, more predictive than “as of today.” That’s why it changes relatively slowly. It is also worthy of note that it takes not only the SEC performance into consideration, but the entire body of work. This is essentially a subset (although slightly displaced in time) of the Blogpoll ballot.
With respect to the “beauty contests,” I refer to the AP and Coach’s poll. Most of them vote based purely on how they feel about a team, rather than using any objective standard. Hence the term, “beauty contest” — those polls are mostly who the press and coaches think are pretty right now. :-)
But those polls aren’t worthless. They provide a component of “heat” to the system I use, and when a team is getting love from the coach’s and AP poll, it shows up in my results much faster than it would in a purely stats-based system like Pomeroy, BBState or even a bastardized measure like the RPI. That’s the biggest reason why UT is ranked above UK right now.
A final note: The Tennessee victory, in isolation, means relatively little. It has to be supported by continuing good play, and since the Georgia game was outside the window of submission, what seems so obvious now was not so obvious on Thursday. What I mean by that is that a conservative system requires teams to “validate” big victories before jumping them up over other teams.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I see what you're saying
I’m just trying to gauge the balance of these variables and, as you may have guessed, I favor a few of them over the others. I’m not saying any of the variables should be discarded; we probably just disagree about how much weight they should have. Call me simplistic, but I put a lot of stock in the conference record, I’m not sure how valuable the Coaches poll is…
Yall will have to realize my suggestion the formula may be busted is said by someone wearing blue colored lenses.
I'ts OK.
Lots of people take that view, and there is nothing wrong with it at all.
Look, there is no such thing as a “bad” ranking system, just different ones. I have found that whatever works best for the person consuming the information they present is the one they should use. I don’t insist that my fellow voters in the Power Poll accept my method as the de-facto standard, but neither do I accept an argument (which you haven’t really made, but others have) that there is something fundamentally wrong with my system. There isn’t, because the systems on which they are based are as sound as any.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I trust Tru's formula over any of these guys:
Pomeroy currently has the following teams ranked as noted:
Gonzaga #2, Missouri #8, West Virginia #12, a bad Utah team #27.
The scourge of college basketball (besides Bruce Pearl) is the RPI:
Cal #16, Wisconsin #17, Fla State #20, Utah #21, Siena (yes, you read that right) #29, Miami (OH) (9-6) #36, Temple (9-7) #40, Western Kentucky #59, UK #64
UK would destroy WKU if they played, and probably Temple, Miami (OH), and Utah as well.
The simple fact is; I trust my own eyeballs over a computer (unless it’s a Tru design :)).
It is as simple as this...
any formula that would rank Tennessee ahead of UK in an SEC power poll is broken, unreliable and ignorant.
UK is 3-0 in the SEC, two road wins as well, all dominating perfomances and they spanked Tennessee in their own building.
Which team is better? UK is; clearly. Which team has earned the early #1 ranking? Clearly UK.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 19, 2009 5:16 AM EST reply actions
Really?
I’ll bet you would have ranked BC and Arkansas in the top 25. By your own reasoning, any formula that would have ranked a 13-1 team with victories over Oklahoma and Texas out of the top 25 would be "broken, unreliable and ignorant." Yet we see how that went.
How many ranked teams has Kentucky beaten? Arguably zero. Tennessee has beaten two teams currently ranked in the top 25 by virtually everyone, both away from home. Not only that, Tennessee has zero bad losses on the year, has only two more losses overall in a much tougher schedule than UK, and Kentucky lost to VMI. Kentucky may get to #1 next week, but based on my system, they don’t belong there yet.
Please do not refer to my work as "ignorant." It is disrespectful of the hours of work that I have put into my efforts, and you must know by now that I am not tolerant of that sort of language. If you want to go to some other blog and tell them all how "ignorant" my system is, please feel free, but on here I insist upon decorum and being respectful of others, even those you disagree with.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
SEC Power poll
I am not sure what BC has to do with the SEC power poll, but whatever.
SEC Power Poll: Who is the best team in the SEC right now? It is clearly UK; ok, one could make an argument for UF, but the only rationale for UT being #1 is what happened weeks ago and not what is the reality right now.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 19, 2009 8:43 PM EST up reply actions
Did you notice ...
… when my poll ballot was submitted? I’m thinking not — at least, I’m hoping not.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Jan 19, 2009 11:55 PM EST up reply actions
And I stand my my comment..
ignorant = uninformed. To have UT ahead of UK in a SEC power poll is uninformed. OK, your spreadsheet is “uninformed.”
Blah, doesn’t matter much to me as you and I both know that computer based ranking has a high capacity to diverge from reality. Pomeroy ranking Gonzaga #2 shows just how pathetic and “uninformed” computer rankings often are.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 19, 2009 9:08 PM EST up reply actions
I am neither uninformed ...
… nor ignorant, and neither is my spreadsheet.
I’m thinking you are either uninformed or so unjustifiably certain of your position you can’t consider the possibility that you may be mistaken. In my opinion, you are manifestly wrong, the best team in the SEC right now is not “clearly” anybody. Many people think it is UK, but MSU is arguably playing just as well, and most people think Florida is playing better than either one. For evidence, see the AP and Coach’s poll. I am absolutely positive based on this discussion that you are no more qualified than those voters are to propose who is best by any measuring stick you care to apply.
Perhaps you should reconsider the use of such words as “clearly”, “ignorant”, “uninformed” and especially, “pathetic.” It also might help to read Pomeroy’s discussion of how his rankings work, something that you evidently have not done.
Based on the facts in evidence, it seems likely that the object of your derision is misplaced. Some introspection may suggest another target — namely your own failure to respect the opinions of others, especially when theirs are at least as defensible and arguably more so than your own.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Jan 19, 2009 11:54 PM EST up reply actions
wow
you are pretty sensative about your spreadsheet! What the hell is wrong with calling a spreadsheet “uninformed?” Excel didn’t watch the UT vs UK game. People are way to damn sensative.
Any SEC power poll ranking that places UT ahead of UK is void of reality. For evidence see the AP and Coach’s poll where UK received more votes. And to say when it was submitted was a reason makes no difference as UK had spanked UT (and after it was submitted both went on to win their next SEC games).
I suggest next time, use your spreadsheet and then tweak using some human insight.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 20, 2009 5:09 AM EST up reply actions
Yeah, my spreadsheet is real pissed at you.
It has feelings too, you know. I had to hold it back from coming in here and opening up a can of Fourier-analysis whoopass on you. :-)
As for me, I am not changing what I do. I like it, even if you don’t. Sorry. You’ll get over it, I trust.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Heh ...
… We all have to have our little secrets. :-) I have worked hard on it and tweaked it, and I think I finally like it. We’ll see how it performs in the long run.
If it turns out broken, I’ll scrap it and come up with something else. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
You have UT ahead of UK
it is broken, time to scrap it and vote reality. Take a poll on this website so we know how “Sea of Blue” really voted, not the Tru spreadsheet.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 19, 2009 8:48 PM EST up reply actions
Minnesota Beat Louisville BUT
I’d put the Cards at least 10 spots higher than Gophers.
UK is borderline Top 25 right now. Just like 2 years ago when the Cats were 15-3 after W at USC in Columbia. Top 25ish.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 19, 2009 9:00 PM EST up reply actions
I am not
sure what Minn beating UL has to do with the SEC Power Poll, but ok.
Power Poll: at this point in time UK is better than UT. I know it and you know it. Maybe your spreadsheet doesn’t.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 19, 2009 9:03 PM EST up reply actions
Simple
Because one team beat another, doesn’t mean that team is ranked higher than the other.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 19, 2009 9:28 PM EST up reply actions
Or VMI (Not) Ranked Higher Than UK
Any number of examples.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 19, 2009 9:37 PM EST up reply actions
SEC power poll
who is the best in the SEC right now? Not who has earned the right to a higher seed, not who has the more complete resume on the season.
POWER POLL : UK is clearly ahead of UT. To argue against that is void of reality but please, go for it.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 20, 2009 5:11 AM EST up reply actions
Tell you what ...
… You start your own blog and you can have your own poll and vote how you want.I like mine the way it is.
In my opinion, the biggest “void” around here isn’t the reality of my ballot, it is the apparent fact that you are void of any concept of how to interact properly with people on the Internet. It’s rude to come on to somebody’s blog and act like you have, not just in this thread, but in others. If you don’t like my poll ballots, I suggest you don’t read them. While A Sea of Blue may be required reading for some, it is just like the radio — if you don’t like what’s on, you can always change the channel. But don’t come in here and muck it up for everyone else.
It seems obvious to me that you were engaged in other priorities when your parents were trying to teach you manners, so I will endeavor to help you, being the magnanimous soul that I am. Around here, we don’t imply that people are “ignorant” or “uninformed” or “void of reality” because we don’t agree with them. The reason is because such rhetoric is provocative and clouds reasonable debate with invective. Such commentary is best reserved for the manners-optional political debates one can find anywhere with the click of a mouse.
Be polite. If you disagree, say so and give your reasons why. Leave out the colorful adjectives, they are unnecessary and insulting. Keep the snark out of your comments, or moderate it with humor. If all this is physically impossible for you, keep your comments to yourself. Better to be silent and thought a boor than to type and remove all doubt.
You may think you are the repository of all knowledge, but you are mistaken, I assure you — I am. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Well
a spreadsheet or computer poll can be and often are void of reality. If you do not like me commenting or criticizing your amazinng spreadsheet, then block me.. won’t be too difficult to rejoin later. Done it before, and may do it again. Get over yourself and don’t be offended if someone hsa a bit more insight or knowledge, it may help you.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 20, 2009 9:58 AM EST up reply actions
You've gone beyond debating...
Now you just being rude and disrespectful…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
Heh.
Actually, I believe he is the poster formerly known as BeatUL, now that he has so thoughtfully brought it all to my attention. How I could have failed to notice, I’m not quite sure.
Ah, well.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Birds Of a Feather
Flock together. I recognize the style whenever I see it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 20, 2009 2:21 PM EST up reply actions
I tried.
I really did. Too hard in fact.
Do us both a favor and don’t return.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Jan 20, 2009 12:19 PM EST up reply actions
Can't we all just get along?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
A census-taker once tried to test me.
You know the rest.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Jan 20, 2009 12:23 AM EST up reply actions
No poll is perfect
If you look at this poll, you really wouldn’t know that Mississippi State is 3-0 right now and playing some great basketball. They should be higher then 7th — IMO.
I also think Vandy should be bumped down a few spots. They are 1-2 in conference and really didn’t do much in their non-conference schedule.
UT has struggled lately….. They have lost 3 of their last 5 games including 2 at home. I don’t think they deserve the #1 spot…..
My top 5 would be:
1. UK
2. FL
3. Tenn
4. Miss State
5. LSU
GBB!!!
You have to understand ...
… that MSU wasn’t 3-0 at the time the vote was cast. Note how far up they climbed, also.
Vandy was 1-1 in the SEC at the time the vote was cast just coming of a huge road win at UMass, a narrow loss on the road to UK and a win over Georgia at home.
UT, as I explained before, is still there due to their AP and Coach’s points. The AP and Coach’s poll comes out on Monday. The ballot goes in on Thursday. Because of that, there is a bit of a time lag between the two that tends to make it more conservative than a “snapshot in time.”
Finally, I’m not trying to make anything perfect. I’m trying to represent which team is likely to be the best in the league given the information available at the time the vote was cast. Many people are looking at the ballot with 20/20 hindsight, but notice Arkansas — as of the last ballot, they were only ranked fourth, despite two big wins over top 10 teams and 13-1 record, rather than third or second. That’s because the system “holds back” hot teams until they are able to continue their good play against quality opponents.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Thanks, Tru
I understand it a lot better now after reading your response to my post and your response to BigBlue87’s post.
Is margin of victory factored in at all? If so, how much weight is it given?
GBB!!!
Yes.
Pomeroy’s system does include MOV in his calculations. BBState does as well, I think, although their computations are more complex.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
How much weight?
Not much. :-) My numbers are derived from others, so it is pretty diluted.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
As of when? Today? Or last Thursday when I cast my vote?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
KenPom Now Projects Cats To Run The Table In SEC
That would be 27-4 headed into SECT.
Even at 14-2 the only UK teams with better SEC records (of late) are 1996 and 2003, both at 16-0.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 20, 2009 7:19 AM EST reply actions
It is crazy to think that UK will run the table.
If UK can finish 14-2 that would be an amazing feat.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jan 20, 2009 9:55 AM EST reply actions
14-2 Is A Good Guess But Hardly An Amazing Feat
16-0 would be that. But 14-2 aginst a weakened SEC is predictable.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jan 20, 2009 10:09 AM EST up reply actions

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