Kentucky Basketball: Where we are in the big picture
There are a ton of UK sites that has recruiting as their raison d'être, and A Sea of Blue is not among them. That isn't to say that we don't pay attention or care about recruiting -- we do -- but our purpose here is to offer opinion and analysis of the facts surrounding Kentucky sports, provide opportunity for members and readers to comment on, or think about, or to post their own thoughts about in the FanPosts.
We don't get too caught up in recruiting because we simply don't have the resources necessary to cover it effectively, and we aren't trying to compete with those that do. Instead, what we try to do here is analyze what the recruiting news we receive might mean to Kentucky, and offer insights about how the players might be utilized, what we can expect, etc. Of course, all of that is just opinion, and we want that to be understood.
With that in mind, I want to briefly look at where Kentucky is roster-wise, and what is/may be happening to change that over the coming year or so. Right now, UK has it's full allotment of scholarships offered and accepted, so our roster for 2008-2009 looks like this:
| Name | Position | Class |
| Darius Miller | SF | Freshman |
| Kevin Gallow | CG/SF | Junior |
| Michael Porter | CG | Junior |
| A.J. Stewart | CF | Sophomore |
| Perry Stevenson | PF | Junior |
| Ramon Harris | SF | Junior |
| Jodie Meeks | SG/SF | Junior |
| Matt Pilgrim | PF | Sophomore |
| DeAndre Liggins | PG | Freshman |
| Jared Carter | C | Senior |
| Patrick Patterson | PF | Sophomore |
| Josh Harrellson | PF/C | Sophomore |
| Donald Williams | CG | Freshman |
This is our full compliment of 13 scholarships allowed by NCAA rules. As you can see, we are very heavy in the forward position with only one true center and one true point guard. We have 4 combo guards who are capable of playing either position (DeAndre Liggins could probably fit into this category as well, but in the current lineup, I don't expect to see him there). Kevin Galloway could also play point guard, but in my opinion, I don't think you will see him there much, if at all.
For next year, we will be losing two players -- one for certain and one to early entry. I don't think there is any way barring an injury or a sophomore slump that Patrick Patterson stays for his junior year. After having one injury requiring surgical intervention, I think the will not want to risk his future on another, and assuming he is a lock for a first-round pick, I fully expect him to declare for the draft.
That will leave two scholarships available for next year, barring transfer. Right now, we have both those scholarships filled for 2009-10 by G.J. Villarino and John Hood. Marc Maggard has assured us that Donald Williams' offer is only for this year, and that he will not have a scholarship next year. I have made the only comments I will make about that scenario here, and for the purposes of this article, I am going to assume that is actually the case. Also for the purposes of this article, I am going to assume that fact will lead Williams to transfer to another school.
Given all this, it looks like we will have a third scholarship available for 2009-10, and right now, a reasonable person would conclude that scholarship is being held for Daniel Orton, which would give us a full compliment for 2009-10. Essentially, we would be trading Patterson, Carter and Williams for Villarino, Hood and Orton. In that scenario, we would address two needs -- one at point guard and one at center. We would theoretically return a much older group of forwards and guards, and that team would likely be a highly-ranked bunch capable of making a deep run into March.
Now, I am not casting aspersions on this year's team -- they may well wind up playing late in the spring as well, but right now, we just don't know enough about the newcomers to make that kind of judgment. But next year, barring defections and injuries, UK will have a senior-laden team with tons of leadership potential and some extremely talented newcomers to add depth.
All this leads me to believe that the future of Kentucky basketball is very bright, indeed. Of course, there are any number of things that could happen to derail this rosy scenario, but if we are fortunate, we could wind up with a realistic contender for another national championship as soon as next year.
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123 comments
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Comments
realistic contender for another national championship as soon as next year
I know its all conjecture… but this sentence literally brought a smile to my face as I’m sitting here at my desk. Thanks for starting the day of right Tru!
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Sep 12, 2008 9:31 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
We do ...
… what we can. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 12, 2008 9:55 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's placing a lot of stock in the furture's market
Not to throw cold water on the enthusiasm, but you’re banking on a lot of players that have never put on an UK jersey: Liggins, Miller, Galloway, Harrellson, Pilgrim, Hood and a commitment from Orton.
You’re also hoping that Meeks returns to pre-injury self and that Stevenson, Stewart and Harris continue to improve at tremendous rates.
And I so sincerely hope you’re right, but one season at a time, please.
Two months (!). Two weeks. Two pencils.
by Thomas Hunt Morgan on Sep 12, 2008 4:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Possible
I think its certainly plausible that contending for a national championship could happen as early as next season.
Trading Patt, Carter, and Williams for GJ, Hood and Orton is a good trade IMO. I would love to see Patt play with Orton but I think that trader increases the talent level of the team overall. I would sure hate to lose Patt though.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 12, 2008 9:55 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I just can't ...
… see Pat risking millions on another year if he is indeed a first round pick. It could happen, but I think the odds are against it.
But I agree, the trade as specified looks good, particularly when you consider all the upperclassmen the 09-10 team would have. That really matters in college basketball.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 12, 2008 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pilgram and Patterson
Interesting observation that even though fans want Orton and PP to play together, we need the roster spot to even get Orton. Forget first round, I think PP is looking at lottery. Also what’s up with Pilgram? He is on the team but won’t play till next year? Next year will he be a Soph or Jr.?
by Slim Wagers on Sep 12, 2008 10:19 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Mandatory year in residence ...
… he is a transfer from Hampton.
He’ll be a junior when he’s eligible to play.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 12, 2008 11:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He's not eligible but
he is part of " our full compliment of 13 scholarships allowed by NCAA rules." Why would he be counted against our allotment for 08-09 if he is not eligible to play?
by Slim Wagers on Sep 12, 2008 3:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because ...
… he is required to sit out a season. Except in a few very rare circumstances, like Patrick Sparks, the player transferring is on full scholarship from the day he steps foot on campus. Division I college basketball teams are allowed only allowed to give grants-in-aid to 13 players, regardless of whether they are able to play or not. Think of it as a red-shirt without the extra year of eligibility — the red-shirted player still counts against your scholarship limit, even though he can’t play.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 12, 2008 4:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pilgrim
Has to sit out a year for transferring. I think he will be a junior when he finally suits up but I could be wrong.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 12, 2008 10:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Pilgrim and Orton
And while Patterson and Orton would have been a great sight to see together, I’m willing to bet Pilgrim and Orton would do just fine…
by nocodecub on Sep 12, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree
Im fairly sure that Orton will be playing the five.
Even though we have only one true center as Tru speaks about in the post I think its pretty clear that Clyde likes to play two power forwards and three wing/guards types. In todays college game and in the NBA there is absolutley a dearth of true centers and most teams play two forward type players. Even if those forwards are 7ft tall as in the nba they dont play like true centers would.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 12, 2008 12:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But see
Matt Jones site has a bit about Gillispie’s recent meeting with Orton, and a subsequent interview wtih Orton about the meeting.
“The biggest story coming from the interview was not about Orton himself, but about current Cat Patrick Patterson. In the interview, Orton said (for the first time that I have seen) that Gillispie told him that he expected Patterson to stay three or four years. Now of course that doesnt mean that he will stay that long, but it does contradict some other reports that Clyde was specifically selling Orton on the idea that Patterson would be gone and he could replace him.”
by blbskue on Sep 12, 2008 11:45 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, I'm anal about such things...
That information was taken from a premium TCP article, found here (subscription required):
by BBallSophist on Sep 12, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Another 2009 Recruit
Opinion or not, your piece is quite objective and perhaps prescient. At this time I think the 2Pat stay or go question is a coin flip: His injury history and the potential millions must be balanced against his parents’ desire for a degree, besides I trust Coach’s insight more than others. As for incoming 2009 freshmen I predict it will be different than Hood, Vilarino and Orton, and, in fact, there will be at least 4. Finally, I differ in the amount of time Galloway will earn at PG, I see substantial.
by Wild Weasel on Sep 12, 2008 2:43 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Patterson
Call me crazy, but I predict PPat stays and gets a degree…
by kentuckygirl0724 on Sep 12, 2008 3:17 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hope you are right! Other alternatives
Could another scenario be that we have another transfer of a member of this year’s sophmore class who will not get a lot of playing time this year? Or maybe a senior will give up his scholarship for his senior year to open up a scholly for the next four years.
by Blueobsessed on Sep 12, 2008 4:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His Family Told Me That (First Hand)
Outside the arena at UK vs S Car in Columbia SC last winter.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 12, 2008 8:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys ...
… are missing something very important here.
Patrick Paterson is not going to be an accountant, or a lawyer, or any other profession requiring a bachelors or any other degree. He is going to be a professional basketball player, barring injury, illness or some other setback. He may be a lottery pick next year, and very likely will be a guaranteed first-rounder.
There is no justifiable reason for him to wait. None. He can get his degree later if it is important to his parents, but it is not only illogical but downright barking moonbattery to continue to play college ball if he is going to be drafted into a guaranteed NBA contract. If he is a lottery pick projection, there is no “up” from there. His parents may desire a degree for him, but even a moment’s reflection would tell you that NO DEGREE offered by any school in the nation offers the potential for as much income as even a short NBA career.
Face it, folks. That’s why we go to school — so we can accumulate the knowledge, training and credentials to make a living doing what we want to do. Nobody goes to college just for a degree, and if they do, they are … irrational. Patrick Patterson will not need a degree to make a living. He only needs the good common sense not to throw his millions away, and my feeling is, he has that already.
So please, let’s hope the guy gets a nice, cushy high-lottery pick so he can start his career with a fat bank account and buy his parents their dream house. He is ready. The most frightening thing I can think of this the possibility he may blow out a knee and be forced to play another year or two. Times have changed. NBA-quality players don’t need degrees, and if they one one, they can surely afford to get one almost anywhere after their careers are over.
/rant.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 12, 2008 5:02 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
On a selfish note...
…it will also help Gillispie with recruiting. He has yet to coach a big man into the league, and that is something that can be used against him on the recruiting trail by other coaches with a history of putting bigs in the league. If Patterson is a lottery pick after his second year under Gillispie, that’s one less weapon to be used against him with recruiting bigs.
by BBallSophist on Sep 12, 2008 5:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I said, "call me crazy."
Just a gut feeling I have…
by kentuckygirl0724 on Sep 12, 2008 8:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tru
Totally off topic but do you know if SB Nation or ASOB adverstizes for anyone at all?
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 12, 2008 5:37 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
What do you mean?
I really don’t do any direct advertising for anyone except a few ticket houses, and those are going away. At this point, the only ads I have on the site are Google AdSense ads.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 7:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tru I agree
with most of your “rant” but one thing I have a little issue with: I think it is so unfair for outsiders to claim there is no reason or that it is illogical for a player to stay in school if they want to. If for some reason Patterson or any other player felt like that was the best decision for him to stay I don’t know why anyone removed from the situation feels the need to belittle that decision. I can think of reasons why it wouldn’t be crazy to stay in school even if you were a potential lottery pick. If a kid was sheltered or immature his parents may feel he’s not ready at 18 or 19 to be a multi-millionaire surrounded by enablers and tempations living all the way across the country. Or— Sorry for bringing him up, but take Joakim Noah. Lord knows I wanted him to leave the NCAAs (nay, the country) after his soph year, but it drove me bananas when analysts scoffed at him staying just because he loved his teammates and wanted to win another championship—like that was the stupidest reason they’d ever heard of. I mean, the guy grew up with money, his parents were well off, he wasn’t getting them out of the ghetto or anything, so that wasn’t the motivating factor for him. As it turned out, it DID hurt him financially to stay but I’m sure he had the year of his life and he won a second championship in a row (much to my chagrin, believe me). To me, that is far from illogical. Maybe I’m just saying this because I’m a poorly paid liberal arts grad-type, but there are more important things in life than money—like happiness!
For most players, sure, it would be the right, maybe even the ONLY decison to leave in these circumstances. Most people can’t afford to have money NOT be a huge motivating factor in their decisons. But it’s a personal decision—to me what’s illogical is that there would ever be considered to be one decision that would be right for every single person in every single circumstance.
I honestly do agree with most everything you said, but obviously I do have a little issue with that one little detail : )
by blue kentucky girl on Sep 12, 2008 7:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Blue Kentucky girl says it all
This year will be pivotal, but I get the feeling that Coach G through a demanding work ethic is putting the fun/swagger back in UK basketball. Rondo has warned all newcomers that “the NBA is work”. The players earn their paychecks. There are new athletes being added to the rosters each year and that means some veterans must go. With celebrity status comes the need for a manager, a personal trainer, a body guard. You have to watch out for those who want your money not you; even in your love life. It is a hard world out there filled with many a slippery slide. Believe it or not staying with the team, if you have always groown up a UK fan could be an X factor. It is called loyalty and some people are still brought up that way.
I still think Morris’ decision was wrong from a financial point of view. He was one year away from a lottery pick. Had he stayed and given Coach G a chance and if the rest of the team had not experienced the injuries I believe the team of Bradley, Meeks, Crawford, Patterson, and Morris woulld have been at least an Elite Eight if not a Final Four team. The personal stock of all three seniors would have risen substantially. Morris was never really loyal to UK. I think ithis loyalty grew on Crawford and of the “Big Four” Bradley was consumed by Big Blue Fever.
I don’t pretend to know what will be PP’s decision, but I do know he bleeds blue.
by Blueobsessed on Sep 12, 2008 9:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morris' decision ...
… was a poor one. He had no rational hope of a guaranteed contract — none. He needed that extra year to get one.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 7:27 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
Morris should have stayed for his senior year.
He and Patterson would have been Dandy in the post.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morris
Morris decision was wrong but he could not reenter the draft and could not be a first round pick and had no hope of a guarenteed contract any time he decided to go pro.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 13, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good point.
I had forgotten that. But I think he would have done better to stay, nonetheless. Just as you say.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 10:20 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I differ on Morris's future
I think one more year, a good game against the big PFs from Indiana, Louisville, Alabama, TN and NC and good deep run in the NCAA would have helped. Maybe even a good game against Memphis would have put him above all of these players. It certainly would have given him name recognition that the GMs could not ignore. Look where he is today. If he had waited one more year to come out, he could not have done worse.
by Blueobsessed on Sep 13, 2008 8:19 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Morris Could NOT Be Drafted In 2008
Once he was passed over in 2005, he lost any opportunity to ever be drafted (NBA rules).
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here would be my response to that.
If somebody wants to do something that flies in the face of their apparent best interests, they certainly can. This is America, and just because something is transparently and indisputably in the wise choice, they are under no obligation to take advantage of it.
If Patrick wants to stay and get an education, risking injury and millions of dollars, he certainly wouldn’t be the first. But from a practical standpoint, I would have to say that nobody could make a defensible case that would be in his best interest. Such a decision, to me, seems foolishly reckless. If UK had a legitimate chance to contend for an NCAA championship, that would be at least a defensible argument, albeit a fairly weak one in my opinion given his family circumstances, to stay in school.
Noah is a completely different case. His family was wealthy, so the risk to his future was largely mitigated by the fact of their wealth. Patterson’s family, as I understand it, are simply middle-class people. When there is no safety net, it is wise for a person to consider the downside risk more carefully than if there is one.
Nobody would agree with you more about happiness being more important than money than me, for any number of reasons. But with that said, let’s look at this scenario: You or I have $10 million dollars waiting at a bank from a rich uncle, and all we have to do was go down to the bank and pick it up. But doing so means that we have to give up our happy college existence for at least 5 years as part of the deal, or there is a chance that it may be given to someone else.
While money can’t buy either of us love or happiness, it can make both easier to obtain. Even the most non-material person could surely appreciate the opportunities that such a windfall would open up for their families, for their children, their future and even their life’s work. Money is a means to an end, not an end in itself, and the really priceless thing is that Patterson is not even having to surrender his education — just postpone it for a while, and he would be doing the thing he loves best — basketball — to earn it.
Few in this world are ever afforded such an opportunity, and to risk losing it for purely self-satisfying reasons looks at best ill-considered to me, and that flatters it unmercifully.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 7:26 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't foget
Psycho T. Tru, do you agree with his decision to stick around? Seems like he would have been a lottery pick last year, and definitely a first rounder. He’s getting his degree. Why?
by blbskue on Sep 13, 2008 5:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because ...
… his father is an orthopedic surgeon and he can afford to.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 14, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Next 5 years
1 or 2 championships.
Mark it down.
by blueninja on Sep 12, 2008 7:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Above Is Pipedream
But 27 or 28 W in 2009 season isn’t.
Gillispie has won 1 championship of any kind (UTEP conference title in 2004).
It’s quite a stretch to 1 or 2 NCAA titles from 2009 through 2013.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 12, 2008 7:55 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Ohhhh
we shall see, Forty. We shall see.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Sep 12, 2008 8:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hopefully not a stretch!
I don’t want to words in his mouth, but I feel Gillispie expects to have brought home a banner by 2013. The 2013 season will be his seventh season and many coaches have done it faster than that.
Two months (!). Two weeks. Two pencils.
by Thomas Hunt Morgan on Sep 12, 2008 9:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rupp, Hall, Pitino (I'll Leave Tubby Out)
NCAA and NIT started in late 1930’s. Took Rupp 9 years to win NCAA and 8 years to win NIT.
Took Hall 6 years to win NCAA. Took Pitino 7 years to win NCAA.
Gillisipe would do well to win it in 6, 7, 8, 9 years like those 3 did.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with Forty...
…not necessarily because of the statistics, although those certainly buoy his argument.
I think that Kentucky fans are still so conscious of our run in the late 90’s that our respect for how much luck, skill, and work it takes to reach the championship game and win it is significantly lower than what it should be, even with our current drought of presence in the Final Four. So many things have to fall into place at the right time. Matchups, team health, geography of your region, whether your team is on a hot streak or a cold one, impossible shots always seeming to find their way into the basket…so on and so forth…
Point is: it’s extremely difficult to win a national championship. There are so many variables involved, many of them uncontrollable, that to predict 1 or 2 in the span of five years for ANY coach is a pipe dream in my view. I think it’s more realistic to predict 1 or 2 Final Fours, which has been shown to be quite realistic by teams like UCLA and UNC recently (teams whose level I expect to be at regularly within 2 years).
by BBallSophist on Sep 13, 2008 10:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd Put ItThis Way
Gillispie has 7 year agreement, contract, whatever they call it.
He MUST get to FF in that timeframe. He SHOULD win NC in that timeframe.
If not, UK will get another coach IMO.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 11:02 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's A Pipedream
Pitino won 1 NC in 8 years (really 22 year career).
Gillispie may win 1 someday but RIGHT NOW it’s a pipedream.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 12, 2008 8:13 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
No so much a pipedream ...
… as an unlikely situation. Next year, under the right circumstances, UK could have a legitimate contender.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 7:28 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Better Stated Than I Did
But same point I was trying to make.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gillispie In Postseason
6 years of conference tourney and NIT or NCAA tourney games.
You’ll be surprised that his postseason coaching record is barely .500 so far.
He CAN get there. But his record (so far) in postseason play is pretty ordinary.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 12, 2008 8:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
It would be interesting...
To see Gillispie’s cumulative record when his teams were supposed to advance (i.e., they had a good seed and were to do well in the NCAA tournament)
To rephrase my point, last year’s team really didn’t have a shot at advancing far. Contrast that against his last team at Texas A&M.
Does he win when he should? Does he under or over achieve?
Two months (!). Two weeks. Two pencils.
by Thomas Hunt Morgan on Sep 12, 2008 8:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hall, Sutton, Pitino, Tubby
All UNDERachieved at UK by those criteria.
Hall’s teams had good postseason success in NCAA in 1970’s but not 1980’s. His teams were poor in SECT play most years. 20-9 in NCAA, 4-1 in NIT.
Sutton had some postseason success. 5-3 in NCAA. Not bad in SECT (6-1).
Pitino excelled in SECT play (17-1) and NCAA (22-5) but had four #1 seeds and only 1 NCAA title.
Tubby also was very good in SECT (20-5) and NCAA (23-9) but only made 1 FF appearance.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You've mentioned these stats before ...
… but you fail to put the stats into context.
He has taken schools that had been absent from the NCAA Tournament for many years, back to the Big Dance. It
is not as if he has been at Kansas, North Carolina, or even a competent basketball program. The fact that he has accomplished what he has accomplished in such short order certainly gives credence to those who opine that Gillispie will be ultra-successful at UK.
His lack of Tourney success is utterly irrelevant, at this point.
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 8:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Just curious ...
… why do you think it is irrelevant? It seems relevant to me, prima facia.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 9:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's see if I can articulate my view ...
… I look at where he/his team started from. He took UTEP, an also-ran for a number of years, and immediatley had a huge, positive impact on their success. The fact that they didn’t experience NCAA success is to me, irrelevant because him simply getting them into contention for a berth in the Tournament is a minor miracle. To me, him taking UTEP from 6-24 to an NCAA bid in one year is as impressive an accomplishment any coach has achieved recently.
Besides, Gillispie’s lack of NCAA success is a bit of a misnomer. He took A&M from being literally a laughingstock in the Big 12 and nationally, to the Round of 32 in 2 years, and the following year they went to the Sweet 16, beating U of L in a red Rupp Arena.
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 3:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Addendum to my above post
I just thought of an excellent example of what I’m talking about;
Travis Ford. Ford has had zero Big Dance success. But what has he started with? A moribund program devoid of talent (EKU) and a program that hadn’t had any real success in about a decade (UMass).
Is he to be held in a dimmer light because he hasn’t won an NCAA T. game? In my opinion, no. Simply the fact that he got EKU back to the Dance after a couple of decades is a huge accomplishment. He didn’t even get UMass to the Tourney, but looking at what he inherited, just having them in contention for a spot is a great achievement.
Anyway, that’s how I feel about it.
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 4:18 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
And yet another addendum
Another aspect of the issue; these young coaches who come up through the ranks of the mid-majors, or low majors is that when they do make the NCAA’s they are most often saddled with a 8,9, or 10 seed where they have to play a pretty good team in the first round, and if they win, they are then playing a top seeded team. That makes it much more difficult to sport a winning Tourney record.
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Postseason Coaching W-L Record
Check conference tourneys AND NCAA or NIT in Gillispie’s 6 years.
You’ll find a sub .500 postseason record.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 5:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I suppose I need to be clearer: I don't give a darn about Gillispie's postseason record ... to this point.
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 5:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You Should IMO
He’s 118-71 overall but only 9-11 in postseason (conference, NCAA, NIT) tourneys.
He CAN do better. He MUST. But he hasn’t (yet).
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Agree
Gillispie’s post season – TO THIS POINT – has never involved the University of Kenutcky. Say what you will, but IMO it is impossible to compare what one coach HAS DONE with one team versus what they WILL DO with a completely different team – apples and oranges. I have never understood that comparison argument and doubt if I ever will. I am with Ken on this one…
by kentuckygirl0724 on Sep 16, 2008 3:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UTEP, TAMU, UK
Combined, his postseason W-L record is about .500 so far.
His best (overall) postseason success was at UTEP.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino
Providence hadn’t been to NCAA in a while, yet he led them to 2 years of good postseason results (Big East tourney, NCAA, NIT).
Tulsa and Georgia hadn’t seen much recent success, yet Tubby led both to good postseason results (MVC and SEC tourneys, then NCAA).
Gillispie CAN but hasn’t yet had much postseason success.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:45 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'll grant you Pitino, but at the same time it was a different college basketball world back in those days.
As far as Tubby is concerned; Tulsa had been good for some time, so comparing Tulsa to A&M and UTEP is apples and oranges. At Georgia Tubby lost in the first round one year, and went to the Sweet 16 the other, not that much different than Gillispie’s 3-3 NCAA mark with A&M and UTEP.
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 3:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not So
Tulsa was good in the early 1980’s under Nolan Richardson.
Overall, Tubby won about 2/3 of his postseason games in his first 6 years of coaching.
Gillispie hasn’t even won 1/2 of his postseason games in 6 years.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 5:03 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You need to educate yourself on Tulsa's history
The two years before Tubby took over they went to the NIT. Their three year record before Tubby took over was 53-28.
Since the ‘80-’81 season Tulsa has been consistently good. They have experienced an occasional down season here or there, but for the most part they have thrived, making many NIT and NCAA Tournament appearances.
Comparing Tulsa and Georgia, with UTEP ( the ten years before BCG took over ) and A&M is ludicrous, something I’m sure you are aware of.
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 5:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Never Better Than 1993 And 1994 (Until Self In 2000)
Tulsa revived under Tubby Smith and (later) Bill Self.
UTEP won the NCAA title in 1966 and was very good in 1990’s (Don Haskins).
Georgia had a few years of marginal success in 1980’s but never better than mid 1990’s under Tubby.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:16 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Coaches
Let’s get it out there. As a game motivator/game coach Coach Smith in my opinion was outstanding. It is obvious to me that Coach Smith for whatever reason, became less able to get top talent after the “Big Four” He was able to recruit well from between the 30-65 four star slots and win 22-25 a year.
With the immergence of FL and TN , Vandy and Georgia doing the same, the gap closed between UK and the rest of the league. Soon we were playing a PG who was 6’6" but couldn’t hit FTs and starting small forwards in the PF spot where they just got overpowered.
So now we have Coach G. who is a recruiter and a practice coach. Everything Coach Smith was not. Time will tell whether or not he already has the savy that Coach Smith developed over the years as an assistant and head coach. However, one thing strikes me about Coach G. He does know how to surround himself with talent. I think Coach G. ‘s overall staff is stronger than Coach Smith’s and I think that if Coach G. ever doubts that fact he move to correct it immediately. Different styles but class acts.
by Blueobsessed on Sep 12, 2008 10:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
If you ask the coaches, they say that BCG has few peers
when it comes to game management. In fact, among the other coaches he is known more as a game general than as a recruiter (which makes sense — he hasn’t really had that many huge recruits anywhere until his current UK flurry, but he has had phenomenal won/lost success).
These other coaches point to the fact that BCG got his start coaching in high school, where there is no recruiting, and where you just have to take what comes your way and make the best of it. The argument is that this environment causes smart coaches to learn to adapt on the fly to an endless variety of personnel, and against an endless variety of opponents and game situations. This supposedly gives you an edge later when you DO get to recruit the bodies you are looking for, and gives you the edge both in preparation and at game time when facing guys like Roy Williams, who have never had to look past their own toes to pick up five star talent, and who are therefore spoiled, and less able to adapt on the fly either in game preparation or after the tip.
Perhaps there is something to this. Think how often Roy Williams has had what is widely acknowledged to be the best team in the country, only to be shocked by some underling underdog with a coach who just so happened once upon a time to be a high school head coach. Both at Kansas and at Chapel Hill, he has underperformed at tourney time, even though he gets the all-too-predictible unearned ACC seeding boost.
Look also at what BCG did last year at Tennessee after Pat went down — we almost knocked off the number one team in the country on their home court with our best man sitting on the bench in a cast.
I don’t think we have to wait to find out whether BCG has game time savvy…
by Ken Pomeroy on Sep 13, 2008 2:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
My jury is still out ...
… on Gillispie as a game coach. He made some very strange and, to this layman’s mind, indefensible decisions last year on the sideline. But part of that could have been due to his personnel, I don’t know. I will give him the benefit of the doubt.
But this year, he has access to a full roster of decent players. I don’t expect the same amount of weirdness as I saw last year. If I had to judge him based on last year’s performance, I would say he is a good strategist but an average and even a little eccentric when it comes to being a tactician. This year will give us a better read on that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 7:32 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
What I would ask Billy
If I could sit down and talk with Gillispie the first two questions I would ask would be:
Why did you continuously drive to the basket versus Miss. St. last year ( resulting in 15 blocks )?
Why did you allow Robert Vaden to abuse Porter all night in the UAB game last year?
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 3:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Which Gillispie?
The one who was 12-4 in SEC with an injured roster is ONE HECKUVA GOOD COACH.
The one who was 7-9 OOC and 0-2 in postseason play wasn’t very good.
I think Pitino is the better measuring stick for modern UK coaches. His results are what fans expect and want. Not Hall. Not Tubby. Definitely not Sutton.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:53 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Back To Coach GILLISPIE Topic
Here’s how he’ll be measured at UK.
Win 3 of 4 games MINIMUM. Win 4 of 5 if you want to be fully idolized by the fanbase.
Get into NCAA (almost) every year. Win 3 of 4 games there, 4 of 5 even better.
Contend for SEC title (almost) every year, win it 1/2 the time.
Contend for SECT every year, win it 1/2 the game.
Get to FF every few (say 5) years, win it 1/2 the time you get there.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 10:01 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smith > Recruiting And W Per Year
In his last 5 years at UK (2003 through 2007).
Landed #1 class in 2004, including two Top 10 players and one Top 25 – all 5 Star. These players made up the lineup of his last 3 UK teams.
2003 = 32 W. 2004 = 27 W. 2005 = 28 W. All W total > 22-25 W you listed.
The 2006 and 2007 teams both = 22 W yet had 5 Star players (per above).
His 2000-01-02 teams had numerous HS A-A and 5 Star players, yet averaged 23 W those 3 years.
Simply put, UK struggled in 2006 and 2007. Like UK struggled in 1981 and 1982. Or 1960 and 1961.
The coach moved on (in 2007). Not because of 5 Stars or recruiting. Time and opportunity for a change.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 10:07 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Smith
Smith was a better recruiter than people give him credit it for BUT his last few years it seems like he couldnt put very good classes back to back leaving a lot of holes in the roster that made life very difficult.
He definitley got some good players even in his last few seasons but he also got a lot of guys that didnt contribute very much at all and left the roster very unbalanced IMO.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 13, 2008 10:40 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Back-2-Back Classes = Top 5-10 Rated Overall
UK had 2 straight in 1994 and 1995. (Not any other 2 consecutive Pitino classes)
Pitino recruited 2 straight NR classes in 1996 and 1997 despite UK being #1 program.
UK had 2 straight in 1998 and 1999. (Not any other 2 consecutive Tubby classes)
Sutton had 3 straight Top 5-10 rated classes in 1986, 1987, and 1988.
Hall had 3 straight Top 5-10 rated classes in 1982, 1983, and 1984.
If that (lack of 2 straight Very Good Classes) were a point of contention, why not say it about Pitino also?
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Why did I mentioned Coaches?
Because once the recruiting and practicing is done,, that is what will get us to the next level. I eel good because 90% of coaching is done on the practice floor, not the game floor. Nevertheless, I don’t look forward to playing Coach Smith’s teams.
by Blueobsessed on Sep 12, 2008 10:21 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Coaches
“As a game motivator/game coach Coach Smith in my opinion was outstanding.”
You would have perhaps had an argument if you had omitted the “motivator” from your description. Ramel Bradley and Joe Crawford are living, breathing, playing, exerting, focused examples of Smith’s inability to motivate. As for “game”, I’ll give you benefit of my doubt.
by Wild Weasel on Sep 13, 2008 12:30 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Erik Daniels, Gerald Fitch
Living, breathing examples of players motivated by their coach to exceed beyond their expectations.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
The exceptions that prove the rule?
Two months (!). Two weeks. Two pencils.
by Thomas Hunt Morgan on Sep 13, 2008 10:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You guys...
To your question of why any player would want to play 4 years of college basketball and receive a degree, I would direct you to a source who can answer the question directly: Tyler Hansbrough.
by Wild Weasel on Sep 13, 2008 12:33 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Noah and Hansbrough are the tip of the iceberg.
If life were all about self and greed the way Tru sees it, no Marine would ever have thrown himself on a grenade to save the rest of his platoon. That would be irrational. I have to say Tru is off base on this one.
Yes, there are some people for whom short earn cash is their highest goal, but there are just as many (like Noah and Hansbrough) who are willing to sacrifice some of what they may later earn to try to earn a National Championship for their teammates and their alma mater (as well as for themselves). There is just a very strong team spirit in these people (and I’m one of them). I am surprised that anyone finds that either hard to understand or irrational. And that desire to win is even stronger in competitive people like PP. Greed may be strong, but it can’t always compete with the desire to WIN something so bad you can taste it. Most UK grads understand that.
By the way, Tru’s concern about throwing away all that potential NBA money with a possible career-ending injury is way out of date. These days all of those guys take out insurance against a potential career ending injury, so Pat is really not risking any money by getting injured again. He’ll be paid regardless, so he’s going to have the money. What he may never have if he leaves early is a college degree or a national champiopnship.
by Ken Pomeroy on Sep 13, 2008 2:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That's an utterly absurd ...
… metaphor, and as a former serviceman, I am offended by it.
It isn’t about “greed.” It’s about what’s best for his family. No sane man would put his teammates in a college basketball situation ahead of his family and his future. That isn’t loyalty — it is hubris, and disrespect. I know this may come as a profound shock to you, but there is a huge difference between war and the games we play for fun and profit.
I have already debunked Noah and Hansbrough, although there are probably others who have turned down a first-round draft pick to play another year who didn’t have a safety net. The “team spirit” you talk about is a wonderful thing, until you start comparing it to reality — something you apparently aren’t well connected with, judging by some of your comments. Characterizing an NBA career as “greed” is a faux argument, to the extent it is an argument at all. Patrick Patterson’s career path is that of a professional basketball player. As with all careers, timing is a big part of it. If he is projected as a lottery pick this year by those closely affiliated with the Association, he should enter the draft. If he is projected as a high first rounder, his decision process should favor entering the draft. Otherwise, he should stay. That is my opinion, and it is based on sound reasoning, not greed or “team spirit.”
Even the insurance policy you speak of is a very small portion of the lifetime earnings of an NBA player, so that isn’t an argument either, or at least a very good one. That policy is also expensive and a hardship on the family, and doesn’t consider a loss of earnings due to an injury that heals, but ultimately affects the player’s value post-injury. For instance, an injury like Derrick Jasper suffered to the knee cartilage can very sometimes reduce a player’s value to the point that he will not be able to play professionally in America, or for very long. But that doesn’t rise to the level of an insurance claim. Suppose Patterson suffered the injury that ended the career of Rodney Dent. I have news for you — ACLs and MCLs may not end your career, but there are still catastrophic knee injuries that do.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 7:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wow! Tru yet again reduced to the ad hominem attack!
I must have hit a nerve!
I think if you take a deep breath and read what you have written you will see that your argument boils down to an assertion that “the correct and only rational path for a student is the one that maximizes his income.”
You may be a few fries short of a Happy Meal (and we love you for it!), but even you are bright enough to see the lack of wisdom in that.
People walk away from highly compensated jobs every day for a BETTER life in a lower-paying job, because they learn what Pat’s parents already know and what many on this site have pointed out to you, apparently to no avail — money isn’t everything.
As the Hebrew proverb says, “Enough is as good as a feast.” Some people simply do not worship at the altar of greed. The man’s parents are not irrational just because they disagree with your valuation of mammon. They simply value other things more highly than you do.
Moreover, I don’t know what your relationship with your own mother is like, but if my mother is begging me to finish my degree and demonstrate my intellectual worth and mental discipline before I run off and play ball for a few years, there is no amount of NBA money in the world that could cause me to disrespect her wishes. I would not call her irrational, and I would not disrespect her request to me. At the end of the day, my friend, no amount of NBA dollars in the world can substitute for honoring thy father and thy mother.
Also, why do you keep repeating the strawman argument that he is placing his teammates ahead of his family, when his teammates and his family are in fact pulling the wagon in the same direction? They all want him to stay (or at least, in our assumed situation they do). The only argument you make against this is the assertion that honor follows the money, and the money is only to be found in the NBA — assertions that simply do not bear up.
Incidentally, you should not be so hasty to assume that the only thing the big black kid from Huntington can do to make money is play with the round ball. Both Joe Montana and Roger Staubach have earned many, many times more money from their development companies than they ever did playing football and getting promotional contracts. (There are many other examples.) Do not blithely condemn Pat as a dumb jock who just needs to go to the NBA without passing GO; his parents may know somethig about his non-basketball abilities that you do not.
I do not mean to pass judgment on your upbringing. If you were raised poor you may have suffered deprivation far beyond that which compelled Scarlet O’Hara to proclaim that she would never be hungry again. If you were taught that maximizing your financial worth in life is the highest and best goal you can ever have, good luck to you, and Godspeed you on your way to collect more toys. By all means, go to your grave believing that he who dies with the most toys wins.
But PLEASE do not pass judgment on us and call us irrational because we value some things higher than NBA bucks. And yes, in calling others irrational because they disagree with your value judgments you are in fact passing judgment. Tread lightly on those hallowed grounds, for what you say may reveal more about you than it does about those whom you belittle and condemn.
God bless Pat’s family whatever they decide.
by Ken Pomeroy on Sep 14, 2008 1:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Out of line
Your comment is really out of line and you infer so much from Tru’s comments that he didnt say that it makes your comments appear very ignorant.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 14, 2008 3:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Response ...
I think if you take a deep breath and read what you have written you will see that your argument boils down to an assertion that "the correct and only rational path for a student is the one that maximizes his income."
Then you misunderstood me. What I said was that it isn’t rational to risk sacrificing a large amount of money pursuing something you intend to do anyway on the altar of the perception that an education is an end in itself. Team spirit is wonderful, but if you take it in the larger context of one’s life and a potentially severe consequence thereto, it is a triviality at best.
People walk away from highly compensated jobs every day for a BETTER life in a lower-paying job, because they learn what Pat’s parents already know and what many on this site have pointed out to you, apparently to no avail — money isn’t everything.
That’s true, but clearly that isn’t Patterson’s intention. What you are suggesting is that it is logical to risk a livelihood you both desire and intend to pursue for … what? An education that can’t possibly justify the risk in terms of a return of either financial, quality of life or personal happiness? That makes no sense to me, and it should make no sense to you.
Also, why do you keep repeating the strawman argument that he is placing his teammates ahead of his family, when his teammates and his family are in fact pulling the wagon in the same direction?
What the hell is this gobbledygook supposed to mean? Your suggestion (at least as I read it) was that Patterson’s loyalty to team was likely to overturn the obvious benefits of an NBA career at considerable risk to himself. My point was that this is placing his team before his family, and that is clearly not an ethical position.
Moreover, I don’t know what your relationship with your own mother is like, but if my mother is begging me to finish my degree and demonstrate my intellectual worth and mental discipline before I run off and play ball for a few years, there is no amount of NBA money in the world that could cause me to disrespect her wishes.
If my mother, were she still living (God rest her) were to ever give me such advice (which she never would have), I would have pointed out to her exactly what I pointed out to you — early acceptance of an NBA career in no way compromises my prospects for getting a college education — in fact, it enhances them significantly, along with providing many other valuable life opportunities.
America has, unfortunately, found the now oft-articulated (in various and mostly laughably incoherent terms) “education uber alles” to be the most recent (and incredibly ironic) decent into profound ignorance. You, yourself, have just applied the logical fallacy of an appeal to emotion to try to justify a position that flies directly in the face of what a mother should be doing — looking out for the best long-term interests of her offspring.
Incidentally, you should not be so hasty to assume that the only thing the big black kid from Huntington can do to make money is play with the round ball. Both Joe Montana and Roger Staubach have earned many, many times more money from their development companies than they ever did playing football and getting promotional contracts.
Thank you very much for making my argument for me. The reason for the success of those worthies you mention is primarily (and possibly singularly) due to the fact that they were independently wealthy and famous by dint of their professional sports careers, which came well before their success in business.
My comments were that virtually no college degree can provide the reasonable income potential of that of an NBA draft pick, or even a modestly successful NBA career. With that money, you can obtain education, fund business ventures, etc. How many law school graduates or even medical doctors do you see earning seven figures even ten years out of college, let alone two years out of high school?
Now if you made the argument, “well, Patterson doesn’t want to become an NBA player, he wants to be a missionary,” then fine. A person’s life’s pursuits should be what they want them to be, and even though I would argue he could do more good with the assets he earns playing basketball, he could reasonably argue that he is moved to do otherwise. But Patterson wants to be an NBA player. Why quibble about the timing?
I do not mean to pass judgment on your upbringing.
No offense taken. I was raised in a middle-middle class family, went to public city schools prior to the bussing mandates, worked most of the way through college and never got a degree, which I do regret only because it was my lack of discipline that created that situation. I am neither rich nor poor, but I am very happy. Money doesn’t make me so, but lack of sufficient money can definitely make me stressed and unhappy, as with almost everyone. I now own or co-own two businesses which I run from my home. I have very few toys (I don’t need them) but I did buy my wife a used 2005 C-class Mercedes-Benz for her 50th birthday recently. I drive an old truck and a Suburban handed down from my mother.
But PLEASE do not pass judgment on us and call us irrational because we value some things higher than NBA bucks.
Us? What you mean, “Us,” Kimosabe? :-)
Even so, let me point out that you have no interests at stake here. When you say you “value some things higher than NBA bucks,” you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. When you purport to “value” things more than money, what you are really saying is that you aren’t willing to sacrifice your happiness on the altar of the almighty dollar. That isn’t the situation here. Patterson is working toward the objective of being drafted in the NBA, and he is using college as the platform for that audition with the willing acquiescence and funding of the University of Kentucky. If Patrick were to say he would rather spend another year in college than go to the NBA, I can appreciate that sentiment even as I lament its illogical riskiness.
But we aren’t really talking about principle over lucre here, at least not on even terms. Academic education is not, and should not, be an end in itself. Call it it the “Tru Principle of education” if you like.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 14, 2008 6:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Completely different scenario.
Hansbrough is not a lottery pick, and never has been. He is, at best, a mid to late first-rounder right now, and he is trying to play his way into the lottery. I also believe that his family is fairly well off — his dad is an orthopedic surgeon.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 7:39 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Wrong
Hanbrough is a mid to late 20’s pick every season for the last two years. It doesnt matter when he leaves school he isnt making any more money or losing any by staying.
Patt could be a lotto pick next season but might fall out of it the year after that. The 09 draft is reputed to be very weak.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 13, 2008 10:43 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
But how many
5 star players have played 4 years of college ball and went on to become lottery picks?Very few,but the list of these guys coming out early is the norm.Sure,I would love to see PP play 4 years,but the odds are not in our favor.For every one that stays,I can show you ten that leave early.Also,Noah was not a 5 star recruit coming out of high school.
by -Zoso- on Sep 13, 2008 7:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Lew Alcindor, Bill Walton (To Name 2)
There was an early entry draft from 1971 on.
Lew Alcindor could have played in the NBA as HS sophomore. He often scrimmaged NBA players in mid 1960’s in summer league games in upstate NY.
Michael Jordan played 3 years of college basketball. Tim Duncan played 4. David Robinson played 4.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:57 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
After Alcindor left high school, he was never again an amateur. I just had to get that dig in at Wooden and UCLA.
by Ken Howlett on Sep 13, 2008 3:50 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Doubt
Natalie’s Dad knows him well from their NBA days. Alcindor got $100K to attend UCLA.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 5:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Materialism and Basketball
Who would every had thought our blog would have migrated to discussion on choices when it comes to money. IMO anyone making the decision to move to the next level needs to be informed. . First, as we all know,money is not everything. In and of itself money cannot give you happiness. There are happy rich people and there are sad rich people. Money is “happiness-neutral”. Money can cause you to think more of yourself than you are really “worth”. We all see sad cases of this point on the local, state and national levels. People believe they are above the law. Drugs, dog fighting and a general celebrity arrogance ocurrs when someone thinks the amount of money in their bank has something to do with their personal “worth”. Because of the amount of money involved, these are questions that not only the student athlete must answer, but even his sons and daughters must consider. That is assuming that the property he has accumulated has not already been divided between lawyers and his exspouse. The happy wealthy take their wealth in stride, are humble and in some cases you would never know they have money. That is hard to do when you are in the NBA.
Secondly, a person must ask themselves now what would be fulfilling for me to do after my time in the NBA, since the NBA will occupy such a short time of their life span? College is a time to experiment with courses that interest you intellectually. A person moving to the nexxt level should ask themselves if they enjoy the work and fulfillment given them in college. Is collegea struggle or fun? They should realize the next level will not be all flun.
Thirdly, of course it all comes down to your perspective. A private person, putting himself out in the public eye under 24 hour scrutiny can be daunting to a teenager. It all depends on your support system.
I am comfortable with PP’s decision because of the support system I feel he has with his family. They really seem to have all of these issues considered. One way or the other it is not an easy call and it is not just about national championships.
by Blueobsessed on Sep 13, 2008 7:47 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I show up at work and the topic has 40 unread posts...
I should have known there’d be a Tubby discussion in there somewhere!
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Sep 13, 2008 10:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The gift ...
… that keeps on giving. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 10:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Tried To Make Pitino The Point Of Comparison
Or Rupp, Hall, Sutton, Pitino, and Tubby.
But ABSOLUTELY Gillispie will have to do better than 76% (overall) and 72% (NCAA) in his UK tenure.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
REDSHIRTED CARTER HAS ANOTHER YEAR
Carter has one more year due to the year he red shirted. No one graduates this year. May get 2 scollies next year if Paterson leaves for the NBA and D. Williams give up his. RIGHT?
by UK Fan on Sep 13, 2008 12:15 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Carter
Never redshirted. He could apply for another year of eligibility due to medical hardship but not sure if they will do that since he doesnt contribute very much. This is his senior year.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 13, 2008 12:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually, Carter did Redshirt...
It seems that Kenny Walker believed that he was redshirted when he spoke to Scout.com in this article.
http://kentucky.scout.com/2/600388.html
GO BIG BLUE!! Long Live Coach G (so long as he wears KY blue)!!!
by bluebloodtoo on Sep 13, 2008 12:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Redshirt
He did not redshirt. I think Kenny was mistaken.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 13, 2008 1:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He was.
As far as I know, there has been no application by UK for an additional year for Carter.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 5:01 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Guaranteed
Carter played a few games (exhbitions too) in Soph and Jr years. Each 1 second of PT = 1 year of eligibility.
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Players/Carter_Jared.html
He could APPLY for another year and probably get it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 1:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
The school has to apply, not Carter.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 13, 2008 5:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby
I think Tubby said that was the plan originally when all Carter injuries surfaced.
The reasoning was that if Carter redshirted his scholarship counted against the limit but if he played out his eligibility and then requested an extra year of eligibility due to medical hardship that scholarship wouldnt count against the limit. Now that Tubby’s gone Im not sure if this is the plan or not but I think he did say something to that effect while he was at UK.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Sep 13, 2008 1:03 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Medical Redshirt
There are 2 types. The Carter version (play another year) counts as 1 of 13 scholarships.
The Henry Thomas (early 1990’s) version doesn’t count. H Thomas remained on UK scholarship but never played again.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 1:22 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Carter Redshirt
I googled it and could not find a confirmation that Carter Redshirted. If he can apply after this year, I doubt that BG will let him. Unless he has a dramatic improvement.
by UK Fan on Sep 13, 2008 1:28 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
He Did Not REDSHIRT
He played in games in 2006, 2007, and 2008 seasons.
If you redshirt, you cannot play in games or exhibitions.
He can apply to get 2007 season (eligibility) back because he only played 3 games. Must play less than 30% of games to apply.
Jodie Meeks would have been eligible to get 2008 back but he played in a couple late season games, putting him over 30% limit.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 1:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Newsflash!
Pitino never won a NC BEFORE he came to Kentucky,
Tubby never won a NC BEFORE he came to Kentucky,
And Billy G. is not in Texas anymore…..
My new signature: “I believe in pipedreams”
by Magnoliacat on Sep 13, 2008 7:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
Funny sig. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Sep 14, 2008 6:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Read The Fine Print
Adolph Rupp never won NC except at UK. Ditto Joe Hall.
Coach K never won NC except at Duke. Bobby Knight only at IU. John Wooden, UCLA.
Both Pitino and Tubby had superior postseason results before they came to UK than Gillispie did. Just a fact. He’s not had much luck in postseason play (9-11 in 6 years).
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 13, 2008 9:19 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Just a fact. He’s not had much luck in postseason play (9-11 in 6 years).
…his “luck” is about to change…
by kentuckygirl0724 on Sep 16, 2008 3:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Going to Change...
I don’t go by past seasons for Coach G, I am going by what he has done in the past year at UK.
He and staff have been non-stop recruiting and we have an exciting team this year especially with all the walk-on players. This will be the year for Coach G and staff.
Anyone who does not think it will be tons different than last year are in another space.
by kykat51 on Sep 16, 2008 5:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Has To Prove It
0 for 6 on conference tourneys. 0 for 6 on NCAA or NIT tourneys. 1 for 6 on conference titles.
UK averages 5 of 10 conference tourneys, 1 of 10 on NCAA or NIT tourney, and 6 of 10 on conference titles.
Gotta prove it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 16, 2008 7:35 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It Better
18-13 with 0-1 in SECT and 0-1 in NCAA don’t dance in the Bluegrass.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 16, 2008 7:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes
Tubby 9-7 in SEC play, last 2 years in conference play,BG has alot prove.1 game above .500, poor BG.
by -Zoso- on Sep 16, 2008 8:24 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
That Don't Dance Either
But the prior coach averaged 26-8 and was 23-9 in NCAA play with 1 NCAA title, 5 SEC titles, and 5 SECT championships in 10 years.
Gillispie has never (yet) shown much postseason success in 6 years. UK Glory comes from postseason results.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 17, 2008 7:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
apples and oranges
you’re comparing UK results with gillispie’s results at UTEP and Texas A&M.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Sep 17, 2008 10:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Compare UTEP And TAMU
With Boston U and Providence (Pitino) or Tulsa and Georgia (Tubby) if you prefer.
Gillispie CAN but hasn’t YET shown he can succeed in postseason play and titles won.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 17, 2008 7:40 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
you're right
comparing recent results with those from 20-25 years ago makes much more sense.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Sep 18, 2008 10:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
OK Then
Pitino AT LOUISVILLE has better postseason results than Gillispie.
Like it or not, he (G) has never had success in March. At UK, he simply MUST do so.
Rupp did. Hall did. Pitino did. Tubby did. Even Sutton did.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 18, 2008 8:34 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
and we're back...
to comparing a program like Louisville to UTEP and A&M.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Sep 19, 2008 12:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gillispie Has A Subpar Record In March (Postseason)
Wherever he coaches. Period.
Louisville plays Big East teams in March. UTEP and TAMU played much weaker teams.
by FortyYearCatFan on Sep 19, 2008 10:47 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

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