Reality = Perception?

by Mahatma on Jul 28, 2008 12:54 AM EDT Comment 13 comments

So, I was just reading about this Dotson kid who was just offered by UofL. About Pitino, he says "...he gets players to the next level." This got me thinking, we've been hearing recruits say this about Pitino since the old days, but how long has it been since it was really true? Going straight off the top of my head, I'd guess Antoine's had the best career out of them all, but didn't he leave school about 12 years ago? I don't want to rag on any individual players, but do y'all think RP really deserves this reputation as a developer of NBA players? It seems I can remember as many NBA disappointments as success stories.

1 recs | Comment 13 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Pitino

You’re right Mahatma, Pitino hasn’t produced a lot of great NBA players, and he hasn’t produced very many mediocre professionals of late.

Francisco Garcia finally started to get some serious playing time this past year. Off the top of my head I can’t think of any other recent UL players currently in the NBA. Of course, eventually Caracter will make a great pro … pro what, is what we don’t know.

I might disagree with you a bit on your selection of Antoine Walker as Pitino’s best pro. My vote goes to Jamal Mashburn. Even though his career was hindered by injury—when he played he was very good.

Delk, McCarty, Anderson, Mercer, and Walker all had decent careers, although none were ever all-stars. Nazr has had a solid career, but who gets the credit, Rick or Tubby? Uh oh, I’ve started an uncivil war.

by Ken Howlett on Jul 28, 2008 1:11 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Pitino-2-NBA

0 players from Boston U. 2 players from Providence. That’s 2 in 7 years.

15 from UK. (That’s players he coached, not necessarily recruited, UK) 10 of those made it while he was UK coach. 5 made it after he left.

2 from Louisville. Garcia and Reece Gaines. Unless you count 3 of his recruits who signed, but never played at Louisville. That’s 2 in 7 years.

by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 28, 2008 6:13 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Gaines

I saw Gaines play a couple of times ( live ) and I thought he would be a really good pro. It just hasn’t worked out for him though. I think he recently signed with a foreign team, but I’m not positive about that.

by Ken Howlett on Jul 28, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Have you ever seen Mashburn do the shimmy?

I feel like the Mash/’Toine comparison is more or less a tossup. Walker was an All-Star 3 times, and won a championship. Although he was certainly not ‘the man’ on that Miami team, he was one of the two top players on the Celtics’ 2002(?) conference finals team. Mashburn would’ve been twice the player without the injuries, but if frogs had wings…

Back to the main point, I guess I’m wondering what you think of Ricky P’s development of players (does he really add a lot of value in terms of NBA performance vs. potential)? I think Nazr is the best example of what he can do for a player (or could do; he hasn’t been able to work that same magic with Caracter). Scott Padgett probably owes him a lot, too.

However, thinking of all the ‘can’t-miss’ players who basically became NBA journeymen, I don’t think RP deserves this reputation. We’ll see how Clark and Williams pan out in the next few years, I guess. Thanks for the comments.

by Mahatma on Jul 28, 2008 7:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Walker 3-time all-star

I mistakenly included Walker’s name on a list of Pitino’s UK NBA players.

To anwer your inquiry about Pitino’s ability to develop players who succeed in the NBA: In my opinion Pitino uses his knowledge of the NBA, and what the NBA looks for in a player, to recruit the types of players that aspire to play in the Association rather than play 3 or 4 years in college. His salesmanship abilities probably outshine his ability to actually develop NBA-type players. Although I think he is a fine coach, the myth has become bigger than the accomplishments of the man.

Based on the pro careers his former players have had, I don’t think he stands out as exceptional as far as his ability to produce pros. Rather, he takes players who were already headed in that direction and possibly fine tunes their abilities.

There aren’t very many players who played for Pitino who were “surprise” pros ( Pope may be an exception, although he was either injured or on the bench for most his pro career ).

I do agree with your assessment.

Far and away Pitino’s greatest attribute as a major college basketball coach is his ability to recruit, in my opinion.

by Ken Howlett on Jul 28, 2008 8:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Yet

He declined to sign both Lofton and Rondo (back in 2003) when both WANTED to attend U of L.

He’s a good recruiter when Billy Donovan, Mick Cronin, or Reggie Theus was his chief recruiting assistant.

by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 28, 2008 8:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't say he was perfect.

More to your point—Part of being a great recruiter is hiring a great “recruiting coordinator”. And if the last two years are any indication ( save Caracter ), then I’d say Mr. Masiello has learned a thing or two from his predecessors, and Rick.

But, I like your anti-Pitino tilt.

by Ken Howlett on Jul 28, 2008 10:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Case In Point

UK recruiting in 1998-99-2000 was very solid with George Felton as lead recruiter.

Pitino chooses very good assistant coaches. His best trait is player motivation (I think).

by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 29, 2008 6:47 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nazr

http://bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/Players/Mohammed_Nazr.html He had his best year in 1998 after Pitino left UK.

by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 28, 2008 8:00 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

This raises an interesting question for me regarding coaches and NBA potential

Who produces the best pros among the “elite” coaches?

Coach K produces a lot… but other than Elton Brand and Carlos Boozer, what’s he got?

Pitino has been discussed.

Lute Olson… a case could be made here I think.

Roy Williams… honestly, I think this might be where I would go with the argument. It may not hold up to scrutiny and I may be a little skewed in my perception due to Paul Pierce’s recent success.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Jul 29, 2008 10:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Dean Smith

He produced more NBA stars than most elite coaches.

by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 29, 2008 3:11 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't disagree

But I was looking more for coaches who are still active.

As I’ve thought about it more, I think I’d go with Calhoun (as much as it pains me to say that).

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Jul 29, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope the horse isn't dead yet.

I think this is a subject worthy of a research project (Bachelor’s thesis, anyone?) for which I have not the time nor the expertise. If one could correlate the relationship between rating out of high school and NBA draft status, perhaps an objective measure could be obtained. I fear, though, that the result would end up being skewed toward Phil Martelli and Mark Few, based on a couple of moderately-rated recruits who became first-round draft picks. Small sample size is a [choose your own word]. Add to that the complexity of the phenomenon (how much credit is to the coach, and how much to the player?), and you’re verging on the unanswerable question.

I see the argument for Calhoun, but I think maybe Izzo? Or maybe (excuse me for saying so) Billy Donovan? I’m thinking here especially about Corey Brewer. The jury’s definitely out on him as an NBA player, but I remember the Tubster wasn’t too impressed with him out of high school.

by Mahatma on Jul 30, 2008 1:04 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs

Izzo?

Really? I don’t claim to follow Michigan St or anything, but who has he produced? I can think of Morris Peterson and Eric Snow who are servicable pros and of course Jason Richardson (but he wasn’t there long and was HIGHLY touted coming out of HS). Just curious what would have earned Izzo a nod.

by lacrosse_cat on Jul 30, 2008 8:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

And I should add that I think he is a top flight college coach, just not sure how great he is at producing pros (ahem, I’m looking at you Respert and Cleeves).

by lacrosse_cat on Jul 30, 2008 8:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think Eric Snow played for Heathcoate ( sp )

by Ken Howlett on Jul 30, 2008 11:45 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

You are correct.

I forgot when Izzo started as Head Coach but when I looked it up, both Respert and Snow were Heathcoat’s players. But I did remember one more MSU player, Zach Randolph. Although I wouldn’t want to claim him.

by lacrosse_cat on Jul 31, 2008 8:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Knicks

The Knicks dont want to claim him either.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Aug 1, 2008 10:58 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL! Very good, and probably very true.

by Ken Howlett on Aug 1, 2008 3:13 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

Brewer

Top 25 rated and McDonalds A-A in HS.

He was very thin (170 pounds) then and reportedly had a subpar workout for UK coaches in summer of 2003. UK was interested but wanted to see him play in summer camps. Florida got him first.

UK wound up with Morris, Rondo, Crawford, and Bradley getting the 4 open scholarships. That was the #1 recruiting class in 2004.

by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 30, 2008 6:12 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs