Billy Gillispie: Piloting the Juggernaut
John Clay had this fascinating piece today about Kentucky coach Billy Gillispie today. The upshot is that Gillispie appears to have finally gotten his arms around the head coaching position here at UK, and seems to be enjoying the experience after a rough first year.
You know, we have talked a lot about the basketball team's news and players lately, and we have harped on media double standards as they seem to apply to the Kentucky coach. But what we really haven't done is sit back and take a look at how our coach has done a little over one year into the process. So I'm going to give him my honest evaluation (not "brutally honest," just honest).
Positives:
- Straight talk -- everybody loves a straight shooter, and Gillispie has, as far as I know, delivered in spades. He has not gilded the lilly much, especially when it comes to the team's prospects.
- Hard work -- This guy works hard, but we knew that coming in, it was a big selling point. But the reality of his effort is even more prodigious than the rumor. He seems to be everywhere, all the time.
- Recruiting -- Boy, was this ever an issue. Gillispie came to Kentucky with the reputation as a recruiter extraordinaire, and as a developer of downtrodden programs. Kentucky didn't need the latter, but many people believe that it desperately needed the former.
So how has he done? Well, in my judgment he has done fine. He isn't exactly ready to compare classes with Ol' Roy, but he has landed a couple of outstanding prospects in 2008 and one or two more for years down the road, and 2009 is shaping up very nicely. The outcome of those won't be known for awhile, but I think the signs are encouraging.
But the most important thing he has done is put a "buzz" back in Kentucky basketball on the recruiting side. Tubby Smith had his own way of recruiting, which was much more dependent upon personal relationships. It worked, but it was opaque to the Big Blue Nation and caused much consternation among the slavish recruiting followers. Gillispie's style is much more transparent and fanatic-friendly. I pass no judgment on which is more effective, but I think Gillispie's style is a better fit for a high-profile program like Kentucky. - Comfort with the media -- This is going to sound strange, but I think that Gillispie has, on balance, been more comfortable around the media in Kentucky than his predecessor despite some apparent hostility from some of the beat reporters around the state. John Clay uses an interesting metaphor comparing Gillispie with Smith, saying that Smith would rather be "tied to a tree in a lightning storm" than put on a summer press conference about basketball.
- Passion for the game -- This may be Gillispie's most endearing quality. They guy has an incredible passion for the game and is quite possibly the most overtly competitive person on the entire team. That is a drastic change, at least in public perception, from the previous administration. I'm not suggesting that Smith didn't have these exact same qualities, what I'm saying is that they weren't as obvious.
Negatives:
- The past -- Gillispie's past indiscretions continue to haunt him today, and they will be there for a long time to come. Every time something happens that can be remotely tied to the DUI arrests, they will be. Fair or not, this is a fact of life, and Kentucky fans must deal with Louisville and other rival schools posting pictures of the now-famous Fox screen shot in their jibes for the foreseeable future.
- Strange coaching decisions -- We saw some really bizarre stuff out of Gillispie from the bench last year, and his explanation is pretty much always the same -- "I just thought that was what was best." Gillispie is willing to talk about everything, but not his coaching decisions, ever. That does not sit particularly well with the Big Blue Nation, who was used to getting that data from Tubby Smith.
- Media savvy -- Despite Gillispie's obviously improving relationship with the Kentucky media, he is not glib or fluent a la Rick Pitino or Billy Donovan. This is not really a change from the previous regime, but Tubby Smith famously disliked dealing with the media. Gillispie has no such reputation.
He also allowed his relationship with the beat reporters to reach a surprisingly low level, although to his credit he has begun to rebuild those relationships this summer. Smith never allowed his relationships to deteriorate, and always managed to keep his connection with the local media solidly intact, if arms-length. - Stupefyingly slow contract negotiations -- I can't think of an excuse for this. I know he isn't the only one, but c'mon, man, this just can't be that difficult. And it is important.
Overall, I think Gillispie has done a solid job so far. He hasn't set the world on fire unless you are talking about the recruiting world, and in that case, he has definitely announced his presence with a roar that has every coach in America taking notice. What I hope to see now is for him to make an impact on the coaching side, and he has already begun that process by turning last year's team around mid-season from one of the worst in recent UK history to a middle of the road squad that still managed to reach the tournament.
If Gillispie can carry that momentum over into next year despite the loss of his two senior leaders, there are some very good things in store for Wildcat fans. A lot of national pundits are writing off Kentucky this year due to our back-court losses, but 'Cat fans in the know realize that, while we won't have a dynamic duo like Crawford and Bradley next year, we won't really need them with the new dynamic duo of Patterson and Stevenson, as well as some solid wing players and significantly improved front-court depth. If everyone reports to the first practice eligible, Kentucky will likely remind everyone in the nation and particularly in the SEC that the recent Wildcat doldrums have passed.
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89 comments
Comments
Afraid to ask...
what is the “famous Fox screen shot?”
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 18, 2008 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gillispie's Mug Shot
From his DUI arrest out west.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jul 18, 2008 9:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ohhhhhh
Duh! I should have know that.
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 18, 2008 9:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
All the positives/negatives aside...
Ultimately, its going to come down to wins and losses. If he has another rough year this year, things will start getting hot under his collar.
I like the guy, but the early schedule does him no favors once again.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jul 18, 2008 9:10 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gillispie
I have a good feeling about our Coach Gillispie. I predict we are Final Four bound in 2-3 years and win a national championship shortly there after. GO CATS!
by kentuckygirl0724 on Jul 18, 2008 9:14 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Early schedule
As long as he avoids the early season drastic upsets that occured last season I think he’ll do fine. I see this team being much better than last seasons simply becuase the continutiy and familiarity that the players will have with coach g and the system. Those things cannot be undervalued. I also expect we will have a much much stronger frontcourt this season that will take a lot of pressure off of the guards to make something happen.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 18, 2008 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
This-N-That
Great press conference by Gillispie.
His recruiting in 2007 was excellent. Less so in 2008. But 2009 is looking good. 2010 even better. 2011 and 2012 are too far away.
Tubby was uncomfortable with most KY media. But not so in Tulsa, Georgia, or now in Minnesota. Ask Larry Vaught.
I saw no negatives from the presser yesterday. Only positives.
UK averaged 27 W and 78% (W-L record) from 1990 through 2007. UK won 7 SEC titles and 10 SECT championships plus 2 NCAA titles in those 18 seasons. Those are the criterai by which he’ll be judged Yea or Nay by UK fans and media after 5-10 years.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 9:20 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Probably not.....
History, in general might judge him by what he’s done over the past 5 to 10 years, but UK fans will judge him by what he’s done over the past two years or so. Fans will accept a down year occasionally, but they get awful restless beyond that. Whether that’s reasonable or not can be debated all day long.
by RichardL on Jul 18, 2008 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK Has Never Been Down Very Long
Gillispie should (and IMO will) be judged not on 2008 and 2009 but on the full 7 year term of his contract.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 12:58 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lucky for BCG
he is following Tubby who in nearly 10 years could not take UK to a Final Four with his recruits. This give BCG time….
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 18, 2008 3:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
1998 Thru 2007 (10 Years) = 1 FF
1960’s = 1 FF. 1980’s = 1 FF. UK only averages 2 FF per decade (13 FF in 70 NCAA seasons).
Gillispie MUST get to FF and soon. He’s never been close.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 3:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
yes, please go back 50 years.. very relevant....
anyway, again, BCG is fortunate that Tubby was unable to take UK to a Final Four , well except for the loaded team Pitino left him.. And since Tubby has never singed a player to reach a Final Four (unless you really think Saul counts) BCG really has the bar lowered for him. Pretty simply, Pitino lifted UK to great heights, Tubby brought it down adn now BCG has an opportunity to do great things and endear himself to UK fans.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 18, 2008 4:36 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
2008 looks pretty good.
Miller, Liggins, Harrelson, Galloway. I realize the last two aren’t well known, but the reports on Josh are that he will be an immediate contributor.
Patterson and Legion were great gets at the time, but in retrospect Patterson was really his only recruit in ‘07.
Obviously if Liggins and Galloway don’t qualify I will drastically change my opinion on this.
Still not a crook!
by TrickyD26 on Jul 18, 2008 11:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Galloway...
has qualified. Just a few more hoops to jump through for UK, not the NCAA. It’s an “in house” deal. Most “in the know” are not worried about it. Still, never safe to assume anything…
I love this class, except for the lack of a scoring guard. Liggins and Miller are the headliners, but as you mentioned, Harrellson and Galloway are likely going to be very good as well, despite being overlooked by many when assessing the class. I’m especially optomistic about Galloway. Gillispie basically had his choice between Galloway and Tyrone Appleton, and he chose Galloway. Appleton then committed to lowly defending national champion Kansas. I believe Galloway is going to be very good and probably the most important player in this class for next year.
by BBallSophist on Jul 18, 2008 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Not Accurate (Appleton)
He chose Kansas long before Galloway was on the radar screen at UK.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 1:02 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually that isn't accurate...
Galloway was not only on the radar, but silently committed before Appleton committed to Kansas. There’s no way to absolutely confirm that Galloway is the reason that Appleton committed to Kansas, but people with sources close to the staff indicated that this was what happened. We were long considered the strong leader for Appleton before he committed to Kansas…
Here’s a link to a Cats Pause article stating the interest between UK and Galloway. It references a newspaper article that was written in early February by a local newspaper which “incorrectly” mentioned that Galloway had committed to Kentucky:
http://kentucky.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=888&CID=776104
Note that this was written on February 19. The referenced newspaper article was written days before that.
Here’s a link to the article on Appleton committing to Kansas:
http://basketballrecruiting.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=910&CID=778780
Note this was written on February 25 (so he likely committed a day earlier on the 24th)
Here’s a link to the article in March that officially announced Galloway’s verbal to Kentucky. It turned out that he HAD silently verballed to Kentucky in mid-February (before Appleton verballed) and someone leaked it to the paper, but his Juco team has a rule against talking about transferring to other schools before the season began, so they lied and claimed that he hadn’t verbaled:
http://kentucky.rivals.com/content.asp?SID=888&CID=784509
Now, you can argue that Appleton would have chosen Kansas regardless of what Galloway would have done. But if Appleton was undecided prior to February 24, and Galloway committed prior February 19, clearly Gillispie believed that Galloway is just as good if not better than Appleton, a player he had a great shot at. Otherwise he would have waited for Appleton to decide and THEN he would have accepted Galloway’s verbal. Those with sources say that Gillispie preferred Galloway over Appleton, so take that for what it’s worth. Shortly after Galloway silently verballed, Appleton headed to Kansas. You’ll claim it was a coincidence, but others with sources claim that it was a direct effect of Gillispie going with Galloway over Appleton. Again, Appleton had specifically mentioned us as his leader multiple times before committing to Kansas.
There is no way to know for sure that Gillispie chose Galloway over Appleton, but the circumstantial evidence points otherwise. But saying that Appleton “chose Kansas long before Galloway was on the radar screen at UK” is 100% false.
by BBallSophist on Jul 18, 2008 1:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK Recruited Appleton In Late 2007
Well before Galloway. No one chose either player first. Appleton picked Kansas first.
Appleton is rated > Galloway as a player. Based on that, Kansas got luckier.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 3:49 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You have no idea when we began looking at Galloway
It’s perfectly feasible that the staff was looking at Galloway as long as they had been looking at Appleton. This staff keeps things as quiet as possible. For every one player we know they’re looking at, there are multiple players we have no clue about. And I didn’t state that we recruited Galloway before Appleton, just that I believe the staff wanted to sign Galloway as much or more than Appleton. that Galloway chose UK before Appleton chose Kansas.
You did, however, state that Galloway wasn’t on our radar when Appleton picked Kansas on February 24. The facts state otherwise, considering an article was leaked about Galloway verballing to UK sometime around February 16-18. So not only was he on the radar, he had already committed. A week later, Appleton committed to Kansas.
Cut-and-dry case of cause and effect? Of course not. But it doesn’t require a leap of faith to figure out that the verbal of Galloway would have a direct effect on Appleton, considering the fact that they are the same style and build and they play the same position. I believe that if we wanted Appleton, we could have had him. I believe the staff went with Galloway instead, because they think he’s the better player, regardless of what some crappy juco recruiting sites say. The people with the ever-illusory “sources” close to the program agreed that this is what happened. Still, it’s all speculation…
by BBallSophist on Jul 18, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Miller and Liggins = Yes
Harrellson and Galloway = Maybe. Both have potential but are hardly typical UK caliber recruits.
The bigtime schools weren’t after them like Miller or Liggins. The 2008 class is OK not great.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 1:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Galloway = Yes
Apparently Memphis, Tennessee, Oklahoma State, UNLV, and Oklahoma aren’t bigtime?
http://www.courier-journal.com/blogs/demling/2008/03/new-uk-wildcat.html
I think Galloway is going to make you look silly this year.
I’ll admit that Harrellson did not have the bigtime schools after him. But this isn’t a good way to assess the potential of a recruit.
Not to argue over adjectives, but his class is very good. Not OK, not great, but very good. All 4 of these players are going to have an impact this year. If Gillispie can snag a good scoring guard at the late signing period, then it might turn into great for me.
by BBallSophist on Jul 18, 2008 1:53 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top 20 Rated Class = 2008 Recruits
Of those schools, only Memphis is big time. Schools like UConn, Duke, North Carolina, UCLA, Kansas (etc) are bigtime basketball programs, not most of those you listed.
I never said Galloway won’t do well. Porter ate him up in HS competition. Yes, MICHAEL Porter outplayed Kevin Galloway in NorCal HS play.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 3:51 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Class
To be fair to both of you you really cant argue how great a class until they are out of school. The 08 class isnt ranked as highly as some would want but once these players carreers are over it could be an outstanding class.
Dont judge them until they hit the hardwood fellas.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 18, 2008 5:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Top 15 (or better) = UK Recruiting Standard In Post-Rupp Era
Hall landed 9 (of 14) such classes – 1974, 1975, 1976, 1978, 1979, 1980, 1982, 1983, and 1984. Missed in 1972, 1973, 1977, 1981, and 1985.
Sutton landed 3 (of 4) – 1986, 1987, and 1988. Missed in 1989.
Pitino landed 4 (of 8) – 1990, 1992, 1994, and 1995. Missed in 1991, 1993, 1996, and 1997.
Tubby landed 7 (of 9) – 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, and 2006. Missed in 2003 and 2005.
Gillispie is 1 of 2 – 2007 class YES but 2008 class NO. It appears that 2009 and 2010 classes will be YES (Top 15 or better) at this point.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 19, 2008 9:31 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
point
I think you missed my point. You should read more slowly.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 19, 2008 10:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Got Your Point
You missed mine. Gillispie landed a UK caliber (Top 15 or better) class in 2007 but not in 2008. He must successfully recruit to UK standards most years.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 19, 2008 10:12 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Style of Play
We were so incredibly thin last year he couldn’t show it but I think this year you will begin to see a much more aggressive style. As he brings in his players, in another year or two this will be the characteristic that people will identify with this coach and the biggest impact he will have on the program.
by Slim Wagers on Jul 18, 2008 10:52 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Style Of Play
Gillispie teams rely on 7 or 8 players, not the entire bench (like Pitino). Look at his teams elsewhere.
Injuries last year made it difficult to have even 7 or 8 guys available.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 1:04 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Still too early
to judge BCG and his recruiting. However, I do not know why you would write “Tubby Smith had his own way of recruiting, which was much more dependent upon personal relationships. It worked…” It worked? He could never take one of HIS teams to the Final Four; it didn’t work.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 18, 2008 3:44 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Is FF The ONLY Measurement???
His teams (and recruits) had the #1 W-L record in Div I basketball from 2003 thru 2005 (and Top 5 from 2003 thru 2007).
It is patently absurd to state that UK teams (and recruits) coached by Tubby Smith weren’t successful.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 18, 2008 3:54 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes FF
are the best measuring stick at an elite program like UK. Tubby will do well at a second tier program; it is where he belongs.. and there is no shame in that.. he will stay wealthy and happy I am sure.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 18, 2008 4:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I Guess 60's - 70's - 80's Were Relatively Poor Decades For UK Then
Only 4 FF (and 1 NCAA title) in those 30 years. Compared to 1 FF and 1 NCAA in 10 years (Tubby).
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 19, 2008 9:25 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I dont care
about what happened 40 years ago.. apples to oranges. LIke it or not, Tubby has never been able to take a single player he recruited to the Final Four.. never. I am not sure he ever will. Joe Hall took two teams he recruited to the Final Four.
The sad thing about Tubby is that Pitino placed UK at the top of the mountain, UK was the elite of elite programs and Tubby ruined it. Post any stat you want, go back 40 or 50 years, say what you want.. Tubby has never, NEVER taken one of his teams to a Final Four and TUBBY was responsible for UK becoming a second tier program.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 20, 2008 9:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Rupp Made 2 FF In His Last 20 Years
UK made 6 FF in 40 years (50’s through 80’s).
1 FF in 10 years is not Never Been Done Before at UK.
If UK was at the top of the mountain in 1996 and 1997, why did Pitino do such a crappy recruiting job those 2 years.
UK is one of the Top 5 programs (Most W, W-L % Record, Most NCAA W, W-L % Record in NCAA games) from 1998 through 2007. Hardly second tier. Not even close.
I’d be willing to bet you didn’t like Tubby in May 1997. We both know why.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 23, 2008 7:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here is why..
when Pitino left UK was a juggernaut, the king of the hill, Tubby took over and turned UK into and insignificant program.
Don’t beat around the bush, just say you think I do not like Tubby because he is black. That makes you an old fool and a real asshole.
FYI, I am black.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 23, 2008 10:37 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
That last comment ...
... will not be tolerated here. It is way beyond the pale.
Please don’t do that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 24, 2008 8:03 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby
Im going to weigh in here.
While his last couple of teams were sub par and everyone Tubby included were ready for a change its absurd to say his recruits werent successfull. Tubby has put way way too many players into the NBA to begin to say his recruits werent successfull. Sure I would have liked a little more success but Tubby was a good coach who recruited better than most give him credit for. I think his last couple of classes ( in between the Meeks class and the 04’s) give many people a much more negative impression of his recruiting than is warranted.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 18, 2008 6:43 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
UK hasn’t had a single lottery pick since 1997 (Ron Mercer), does that year have relevance to you? In the succeeding 11 years Duke has had 9, KU and UNC 7 each, UCLA 5, a number of other schools have had multiples. The responsibility for the descent of UK from the level of those elite programs to its current position - rebuilding - lies squarely on the shoulders of Coach Smith.
by Wild Weasel on Jul 18, 2008 7:56 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent college players
Prince, Bogans, Azuibuke, Crawford, Morris, Rondo, Hayes, and Fitch were all excellent college players.
Tubby definitely swung and missed on a host of forwards/centers after the graduation of Hayes, but he did a solid job of coaching the ‘Cats.
by Ken Howlett on Jul 18, 2008 11:52 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duke, KU, UNC, and UCLA since 1997
To be fair, you list 28 lottery players drafted from those schools… and in all that time, those four schools combined have two national titles. I will take a handful of late first rounders and a few second rounders with a national title over any number of lotto picks. (Of course… we didn’t get that either.)
Kentucky has never been a hotbed of lottery picks. The lottery started in 1985. In the 23 years since, Kentucky has had four lottery picks totatl. Chapman in 88, Mashburn in 93, Walker in 96, and Mercer in 97. To criticise a coach at Kentucky for not recruiting lottery picks is to criticise them for something the school has never done.
In today’s college basketball landscape, I’m not convinced that you em have to have lottery picks on your team to win titles. Look at Kansas State and USC as perfect examples of that. What you do need is a broader depth of talent like Kansas brought to the table this year. If you can add one lotto pick to that (and if they fit in well) then you have the potential for something special.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jul 19, 2008 8:36 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Five, actually
Don’t forget Anderson at #13 in 97. But I never realized we had so few lottery picks. Kudos for pointing that one out.
by Acdixon on Jul 19, 2008 6:12 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NOT TRUE -- ACTUALLY, THREE OF THOSE
Three of the four schools he named have actually won national championships in the last EIGHT years, which just goes to show you that his point about recruiting is accurate. The only team that failed to win during that time was UCLA - the team with the fewest lottery picks during that era. The other teams that won national championships during that era also had multiple lottery picks - Florida, Connecticut, etc. Tubby had no lottery picks, and no national championships (besides Rick’s ‘98 team).
I would love to see some further statistical corellation between the number of lottery picks and the securing of a national championship. I’m sure there is a clear corellation over time between likelihood of a national championship and presence of at least one lottery pick on the squad—the ff corellation i sprobably even higher.
by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 20, 2008 10:26 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Lottery picks
I dont think you follow the NBA much or you wouldnt make that point. Being a lottery pick does not make an NBA carreer. Tayshaun Prince recently said about Joe Crawford that its not when you are picked but the situation and opportunity you get into wherever you go thats important. There has been a UK player on the last 5 count em 5 NBA championship teams many of them Tubby’s players. Lottery picks dont matter man. Tons of them are busts and never live up to what people think. The draft is a broken system. If doesnt matter how players get in to the league but what they are doing in right now.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 19, 2008 10:11 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It was you who missed his point.
Like most of us who couldn’t care less what happens in the NBA, he wasn’t concerned with NBA performance. We aren’t talking about whether somebody’s college recruit could make it in the NBA. We’re talking about whether a coach did a good recruiting job for the college ranks.
In that connection, whether a college guy winds up being a lottery pick has nothing to do with how he MAY eventually do in the NBA, but it has everything to do with how he just DID in college. College players who do well become lottery picks precuisely BECAUSE they just did well in college - very well - and Tubby just didn’t produce those guys. Yes, we had many who had that potential, but Tubby never really brought them along. Some other coach had to bring that talent out of them. The guys who made the pros under him were the guys who didn’t really excel until some professional coach got a hold of them and brought them along.
I think the knock on Tibbu is correct—he was able to recruit enough to make us look good during the SEC’s soft years, but with the recent resurgence of the sec, he just wasn’t up to that level.
I hope and believe he will do well at Minnesota.
by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 20, 2008 10:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Really
So Chuck Hayes, Gerald Fitch, Eric Daniels, Keith Bogans, Tayshaun Prince, Kelenna Azuibuke, all Tubby only recruits didtnt really excel in college.
Here’s a clue about the NBA lottery. You dont necessarily have to have a great college career to be a lotto pick. Take LSU player Anthony Randolph for example. He put up good numbers as a freshman but he was dominating the competition. He was a lotto pick becuase of his potential. There are quite a number of lotto picks who were outstanding college players but so many factor go in to the picks other than someone’s college career I personally dont find it a very good corellary for a succesfull college team. Draft picks MAYBE but not necessarilly lottery picks only.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 21, 2008 9:15 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
wasnt
WASNT dominating
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 21, 2008 9:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
NBA Draft
Here’s some lottery picks over the last several years who were less than dazzling in the NBA. Basing an argument on the intelligence of NBA GM’s is not wise, in my opinion:
‘98 - #1 Michael Olowokandi, #6 Robert Traylor, #13 Keon Clark.
‘99 - #2 Steve Francis, #5 Jonathan Bender, #11 Trajan Langdon.
‘00 - #3 Darius Miles, #4 Marcus Fizer, #5 Mike Miller, #6 Dermarr Johnson, #7 Chris Mihm, #9 Joel Przbilla, #10 Keyon Dooling, #11 Jerome Moiso, #12 Etan Thomas, #13 Courtney Alexander.
‘01 - #1 Kwame Brown, #4 Eddy Curry, #9 Rodney White.
‘02 - #3 Mike Dunleavy, #6 Dajaun Wagner, #8 Chris Wilcox, #11 Jared Jeffries, #13 Marcus Haislup.
‘03 - #2 Darko Milicic, #9 Mike Sweetney, #13 Marcus Banks ( #15 Reese Gaines, yeah good choice ).
‘04 - #10 Luke Jackson, #12 Robert Swift, #13 Sebastian Telfair.
‘05 - #6 Martell Webster, #8 Channing Frye.
‘06—#5 Shelden Williams, #9 Patrick O’Bryant, #11 JJ redick, #12 Hilton Armstrong.
Just a sampling of misses on the part of NBA GM’s. I could put together a list, just as long, of players selected late in the draft who are doing very well in the NBA.
by Ken Howlett on Jul 21, 2008 2:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Re: davw
The above list is meant as a buttress to your argument.
by Ken Howlett on Jul 21, 2008 2:07 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I got that
Thanks it was much appreciated. I am way too lazy really ever back up my arguments with facts.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 21, 2008 4:10 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL --After reading what I wrote in the intro ...
... I thought you might interpret it as disagreeing with you.
by Ken Howlett on Jul 21, 2008 4:48 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Eddie Griffin
by Acdixon on Jul 21, 2008 3:39 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I agree. 7.2 ppg would qualify as a bust for the #7 overall pick.
by Ken Howlett on Jul 21, 2008 4:04 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's a shame, too
The kid had a lot of talent, but never could get his head on straight. Could have been a great player if he’d gotten motivated. Instead, his lifestyle contributed to his untimely death.
by Acdixon on Jul 21, 2008 5:28 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
His recruiting was not successfull..
maybe some fo his recruits were. Tubby failed to take one of his teams to the FInal Four and at an elite program like UK shoudl be, that is a failure.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 20, 2008 9:06 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby Led The 1998 Team To An NCAA Title
It was his team. He was the coach. Too bad you missed it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 23, 2008 7:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I was there
old man and I loved it. I wonder if Tubby has shared his millions with Pitino? Afterall, he owes him most of it…. now, tell us how great Switzer was as the Dalls Cowboy’s coach; afterall, he won a SuperBowl. Let’s hear it old man…..
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 23, 2008 10:42 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Enough.
Both of you.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 24, 2008 8:04 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is it is fair to use that as a measuring stick...
Let’s face it, this is sports and the point of sports is to win. I do not mean that in a poor sportsmanship sort of way, but ask any athlete playing at a high level and they will tell you the same thing!
Without looking can anyone rattle off the super bowl runners up for the past decade, or do the Braves (no offense to any Braves fans) not get ridiculed for winning the NL east so many times yet walking away with only one Championship?
Forty, no doubt Tubby and his teams saw their fair amount of sucess, but the point people are trying to get across is that he did not reach the pinnacle of sucess that diehard fans desire year in and year out. This doesn’t make him a bad person and it shouldn’t diminish what he did accomplish. You cannot however, argue the fact (though I’m sure you will) that UK slowly but surely slipped away from being a championship caliber team nearly every year while he was at the helm.
Furthermore, why is that you always want to argue with everybody? Most of the time you seem to get so wrapped up in proving your own point that you miss it when simple jokes are made or when someone isn’t even talking trash about someone you obviously hold in high regard. It’s ok to sit back take a deep breath and enjoy the fact that most people in here can “voice” a different opinion w/o getting combative.
by wldcatsfreak on Jul 19, 2008 2:15 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Final Four =/= ability to recruit
Remember… Florida State had the number one recruiting class in the nation 5 years ago and turned it into approximately 0 NCAA tourney appearances.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Jul 18, 2008 4:14 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Gillispie Not In Texas Anymore
I posted elsewhere congratulating John Clay on his piece and I’ll do the same here as well as laud Truz’. Not much to add or that with which to contend:
IMO Tru was a bit too lenient and understanding of Coach Smith, especially in failing to note the underlying cause of Coach Smith’s eventual demise in Lexington: he is a textbook case of The Peter Principle in effect. Thus the lack of comfort in public relations in general - to such a point that the AD had to go public with a suggestion to improve - and media relations in particular. His organization’s (team’s) trendline of decline from excellence to mediocrity is quite typical of one that’s being led by a victim of TPP.
A couple of other minor points:
If you consider the “buzz” among coaches to be significant then you would really be impressed if you could hear the comments among most prospects. UK has gone from being: Oh, yeah, maybe Kentucky, to being: Well, you begin with Kentucky. And it will only improve with more winning.
I contend the “weird/strange” (I would choose “exploratory”) coaching decisions were indicative of the situation in which Gillispe found himself: a roster surprisingly (to him) short of talent and numbers and then further depteted by injuries and circumstances, a team that was absent leadership and an understanding of the effort required. Any leader worth his salt (military in battle has produced numerous examples) will recognize that chances must be taken and boldness is usually rewarded. That is not to say that there aren’t dismay and defeat time to time.
The contract negotiations while not being especially prudent (as far as outside observers can tell) and perhaps counterproductive to image are not, in the overall scheme of things, all that important in team performance and have seemed to have minimal effect on recruiting. They are however a reflection on an important part of Gillispie’s overall personality and thought pattern, i.e., if it ain’t basketball, it ain’t important.
I enjoyed the comments as usual.
by Wild Weasel on Jul 18, 2008 4:25 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Hmm ...
IMO Tru was a bit too lenient and understanding of Coach Smith, especially in failing to note the underlying cause of Coach Smith’s eventual demise in Lexington: he is a textbook case of The Peter Principle in effect. Thus the lack of comfort in public relations in general – to such a point that the AD had to go public with a suggestion to improve – and media relations in particular. His organization’s (team’s) trendline of decline from excellence to mediocrity is quite typical of one that’s being led by a victim of TPP.
I don’t think it was a matter of incompetence, but more a matter of Smith not being a particularly good fit for Kentucky. He has a low-key recruiting style that works much better for programs that don’t require a constant “buzz” around them, like Minnesota and Georgia. He can recruit much more effectively in “stealth mode.” Smith’s first recruiting class at Minnesota is evidence of his effectiveness.
Unfortunately, there isn’t any way to be “stealthy” at Kentucky. We are a high-profile, high visibility program that is expected to compete with the UNC’s, the Dukes, the UCLA’s, etc. in every single way, including “buzz” on the recruiting trail. For a long time, I didn’t think that was necessary, but I was wrong. At Kentucky, you must keep your profile high, loud, deep and wide. I think Gillispie recognized this and has completely reversed the stealthier methods of Smith, and I think that is a better fit at UK.
I think Kentucky was just not a program that could use Smiths’ skills to it’s best advantage, and vice versa. Gillispie and Kentucky are like peas and carrots, and so is Minnesota and Smith. Win, win, win, win.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 19, 2008 8:38 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good Points, Tru
Tubby fits very well at those schools. He has excelled at Tulsa, Georgia, and (will) at Minnesota.
He did well at UK, both in W-L (76%) and NCAA games (72%) plus titles (1 NCAA, 5 SEC, 5 SECT). He landed 7 Top 15 (or better) recruiting classes – 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2006 – in 9 years at UK and was going to land an 8th in 2007.
But UK needs an In Your Face coach like Rupp or Pitino.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 19, 2008 9:24 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Yeah ...
... I think that’s right.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 19, 2008 2:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby will never again be considered an elite coach.
Let’s call a spade a spade—after 31 years in the coaching prfession, Tubby has a grand total of ONE final four appearance, and that was with a team that was given to him by Rick Pitino (whether you like it or not). That’s it. And he will never again reach the final four.
That’s a shame for those of us who wish him better luck (I do), but that’s the reality. It was good for him while it lasted, but Tubby does not have the total pachage that a coach needs to succeed at the highest levels. And that’s okay—I don’t either. But let’s just be honest about it and move on.
Good luck at Minnesota.
by Ken Pomeroy on Jul 20, 2008 10:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You are wrong.
He is an elite coach, and he has earned that by way of a national championship. That cannot be undone, or explained away.
Not only that, he was very successful as the coach at UK, and he is in a position to add to that legacy in Minnesota. I doubt they will contend for a national championship, but only elite coaches command the salary and respect Smith has earned.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 22, 2008 4:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ken is right.
Tubby’s national championship can be explained easily: Pitino.
Tubby is a good coach. Is he an elite coach? No way. That is like saying Barry Switzer was an elite NFL coach because he won a Super Bowl.
Tubby’s legacy: never to recruit a player to make it to the Final Four and riding Pitino’s coat-tails to millions of dollars.
Tubby may have earned my respect as a person, but as coach at UK he earned my “GOOD RIDDANCE!”
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 22, 2008 10:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
We have had ...
... this debate a thousand and one times here. Pitino left behind a team that was universally thought to be incapable of much more than a sweet 16 run. Smith won the national championship with them. The reason that we had a few draft picks out of there was because of their national championship, not the reverse.
I remember very well talking with many ‘Cat fans who took the attitude “It will take Smith a while to get the talent up again” after what Pitino left behind. The idea that Pitino was more responsible than Smith for 1998 may be your opinion, but my opinion is that you are mistaken. That team was good. Smith made them champions. Could Pitino have done the same? We will never know, but I am of the opinion that he couldn’t have, right or wrong.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 23, 2008 7:23 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I do not agree...
that team won the national championship because it was loaded with talent at all positions. Not once did I hear any UK fan say “It will take Smith a while to get the talent up again."
Again, to call Tubby and elite coach is the same as calling Barry Switzer an elite NFL coach. Tubby being the first black coach at UK has given him an unbelievable amount of protection from deserved criticism, we all know that is true.
Hey, I like Tubby.. he is a very good coach. He is not in the class of Pitino or a Coach K, but he certainly is a very good coach. I am a Tubby fan, just some where else. Minn is perfect for Tubby, he can win 20 games, make the NCAA and he won’t feel the pressure of not making it to the Final Four.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 23, 2008 9:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Then ...
... we’ll agree to disagree. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 23, 2008 11:50 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
He Is The Only UK Coach To Defeat Coach K Ever
And he beat Pitino 4 of 6 times in recent years.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 23, 2008 7:38 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So?
He is not an elite coach. He is not near the level of a Coach K or Pitino. He can beat Pitino 10 more times in a row but because he has failed to ever take a team of his to the final four (and I doubt he ever will) he will remain a very good coach that was very lucky to have followed Pitino ($$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$).
I bet you want Rupp Arena to be renamed “Tubby Arena.”
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 23, 2008 10:46 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino
He had a much stronger team in 1997 but lost to #5 seed Arizona, which came into NCAA at 19-9 record.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 23, 2008 7:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
that is misleading
Yes,the same Arizona team that won the National Championship and was the only team to ever beat (3) 1 seeds in tthe tourney.When DA went down,I honestly was not expecting UK to be playing for the title.Even Pitino said after the loss that next’s year team will be better and back in San Antonio.
by -Zoso- on Jul 23, 2008 8:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Beg 2 Differ
Tubby ranks among the Top 10 (or so) active coaches in W-L (%) record, both overall and in NCAA games.
His results from 2008 through 2014 (he has 7 year contract) will be similar to Gillispie or Pitino.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 23, 2008 7:31 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
INCOMING
Fair warning,Forty has a stat that you are wrong.
by -Zoso- on Jul 21, 2008 7:52 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gophers can be elite
Florida had a total of (5) 20 win seasons before Donovan arrived.Now Florida has had 3FF and bringing home 2 Titles.I consider Donovan to be an elite coach.Tubby will get back to the Final Four and compete for a National Championship.Several Big Ten teams have made the Final Four in the last few years.Although Tubby has only 1 FF,he has made deep runs(4 regional finals),so he is more than capable.JMHO,but what makes a coach elite is winning the title and multiple final fours.
by -Zoso- on Jul 23, 2008 7:05 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I agree ...
... but I would also add “consistent winning on the highest level” to the mix. And Smith has done that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 23, 2008 7:24 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Fate
Tubby had some really good teams that fell short here at UK.
It almost seems like fate was conspiring against the man here at UK.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 23, 2008 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Not Fate
The last 2 years were tough. Prior to those, he was 219-58 (79%) and 21-7 (75%) in NCAA games.
And many UK “fans” STILL hated him. Some all the way back to May 1997.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 23, 2008 7:33 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
you didnt understand
When referring to fate I was referring to his good teams such as the team that lost to UAB and Mich St that were really good teams but had that one game they just couldnt get through. I think if those teams had succeeded in winning the games they lost they had a great shot at the title.
I was in no way referring to the last few years so take your stats and go argue with someone who doesnt like Tubby.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
by davw83 on Jul 23, 2008 8:47 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Gillispie: Piloting the Juggernaut
turns into a debate on Tubby as a coach. :)
OK, I hope BCG wins 3 championships in the next 5 years and Tubby wins one. Then everyone can be happy.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 23, 2008 9:25 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Gillisipie Has Much To Prove
He’s never been NEAR a championship. He has 1 conference title in 6 years as a coach.
He won’t win 3 championships in his career, much less the next 5 years.
I’d be plenty happy with 1 title the next 10 years. Hall won 1 in 10. Rupp 4 in 41. Pitino 1 in 8. Tubby 1 in 10. UK has 7 in 70 years of NCAA tournaments.
That’s 1 in 10.
by FortyYearCatFan on Jul 23, 2008 7:36 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Uhm...
that was sarcasm. And maybe he will win 3 at UK; Billy D. already has 2 at UF so it is very possible.
Tubby had 0.5 in 10 years as it wasn’t his team. That guy has used Pitino’s coattails to make millions. I am so glad that cash stealer is far from UK….
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Jul 23, 2008 10:29 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
No more ...
... “cash stealer” posts. This kind of rhetoric isn’t welcome here.
Please desist.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Jul 24, 2008 8:05 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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