NCAA Tournament 2008 -- Time for some changes
OK, I've kept my peace on this as long as I can, but after last nights' game between North Carolina and Louisville, enough is enough.
It's just plain wrong for North Carolina to wind up playing a regional final game in it's home state. Look, this has nothing to do with North Carolina -- they didn't lobby for this spot, it was determined far in advance. This criticism has nothing whatever to do with the Tarheels or their fans. It has everything to do with the NCAA.
Theoretically, the NCAA tournament is about competing at neutral sites. Now, I understand the rationale for playing the first round or two near the higher seed's home. But for a regional final to be played 2 1/2 hours away from one of the teams' campus is just wrong. It is a huge, and frankly unfair advantage for that team. The game last night between Louisville and North Carolina looked to me like at least a 50-1 advantage for Carolina. That should never happen in a regional final due to the contest being in the top seed's home state. If UNC's fans travel well enough to get that done in, say, Houston or Detroit, fine.
So what can the NCAA do? Several things. First off, do away with the "pod" system. It introduces an additional complication into the tournament seeding process, and is directly responsible for the kind of thinking that produces needless inequities like we saw last night. In this writer's opinion, the pod system doesn't work anyway, and introduces unnecessary distortion into the the committee's work. Just eliminate it.
Second, do away with the ridiculous geographical regional system. It is silly, and forces the kind of bizarre reasoning that top seeds should play in their geographical area. Do away with it. Call them regions I-IV or 1-4 or A-D, or whatever you like. But the "regional" names are designed to justify just the sort of thing we have been seeing in the last several years. Stop it, and let's get the later games of the tournament as neutral as possible.
Finally, arrange the top seeds so that they have no chance of playing a regional final in their home state. Make sure they are as close as reasonably possible without placing them inside a 200 mile radius.
Of course, you can't arrange every potential game to avoid the home court. For example, what if Arizona were in the regional finals in Phoenix? And what of Texas, playing it's regional final game in Houston? Louisville played a second round game last year in Lexington, a mere 60 miles away from Louisville's campus. But frankly, I am not concerned with these sorts of things happening in the regional semifinals and below, that is just the way things go, and Texas is a #2 seed. I think the NCAA should avoid #1 seeds getting a home court advantage late in the tournament. That is just wrong, in my opinion, and adds an extra dimension to the seeding process that unfairly tilts the table in favor of the #1 seeds, who automatically get what is presumably the easier path to the regional final by dint of their seeding. How much advantage should having a top seed hold?
There is no justifiable reason a top seed's fans should get an easier path to the game site -- none. The tournament is entirely too tilted toward accommodating top seeds, and it's time that came to an end. As for the championship game itself, that is another matter. Those sites are chosen years in advance, and there is no way to ensure that one team or the other doesn't enjoy an advantage there -- that's just luck of the draw. For example, if Texas wins through to the final, they will get to play their Final Four game(s) in San Antonio. But it just so happens that Texas is a finals possibility (as of this writing) on a year in which San Antonio is the Final Four destination. That can't be helped, but situations like Carolina playing in Charlotte are completely avoidable.
It would be fine if you could also arrange neutral-site regional finals for the 2 seeds as well, but the deeper you go, the more logistics problems emerge, and my primary concern is that the top seeds don't get more advantages than they already enjoy. What I would have liked to see is Carolina playing in the Detroit regional, Memphis playing in Charlotte and Kansas in Houston. That would have been much more fair for everyone. And if a lower seed winds up with a geographical advantage over a top seed, I say fine, that's the luck of the draw. The top seeds should be expected to have to defend themselves against the occasional partisan crowd -- that's why they are top seeds. Let's stop treating them like getting an easy path to the final eight isn't enough of an advantage.
Now, what about the theory that, "If anyone should be rewarded, it is the teams that have earned it during the season." To that, I say fine, reward them with a favorable seed and early round games close to home. But the tournament loses it's "neutral site" character when top seeds get to play for a Final Four berth in front of as many home fans as you can pack into an arena.
Even Tarheel-country sportswriters can't help but notice the absurdity. From the Ashville, NC Times-Citizen:
In Raleigh the same day, thousands of Davidson fans sang "Sweet Caroline" as their 10th-seeded Wildcats rallied past No. 7 seed Gonzaga in first-round play.
Davidson hadn't won a NCAA tournament game since 1969, but a lower seed got to play two hours from home and a higher seed in the Big Dance for the 10th straight season got a cross-country plane trip for a road game.
Later at the RBC (Rented by Carolina) Center, a Mount St. Mary's team fresh off a win in the play-in game got the top-seeded Tar Heels in a sea of Carolina Blue.
The Tar Heels extended their record to 22-1 all-time in NCAA games played in-state.
"It felt like a home game," said North Carolina guard Ty Lawson.
That's not right.
But lest you be inclined to blame North Carolina for this debacle, let Gary Parrish disabuse you of that idea:
But Parrish goes on:
That's not a coincidence.
So again, don't blame the Tar Heels for having an advantage.
It's not their fault.
But make no mistake, they do have an advantage.
And anybody trying to tell you otherwise is full of, well, crap.
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35 comments
Comments
Not A Big Problem
UK's 1984 FF appearance was won in Rupp Arena.
But maybe teams cannot play Regional games in their home state? That might work.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 30, 2008 11:21 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
UK Played 14 NCAA Games In KY
Won most of them but not all.
by FortyYearCatFan on Mar 30, 2008 11:50 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
by speedcard on Mar 30, 2008 12:53 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Kent
For example, if Duke were the overall #1 seed this year, they'd have been playing in Raleigh and Charlotte and Carolina would have been shipped off somewhere else.
I won't disagree that it's a strange system that gives an additional advantage (or reward) to the #1 seeds, but it isn't giving the whole picture to correlate their improved ranking to the location alone while ignoring their seed those years.
by kent on Mar 30, 2008 1:14 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
Also, I don't see anywhere in my discussion where I "correlate their improved ranking to the location alone while ignoring their seed." My whole point is that top seeds get too much advantage by being slotted into games close to home. Such an argument cannot, by it's very nature, ignore the seed -- in fact, the seed is the very basis of it.
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 30, 2008 2:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
You're Right About the Seeding
As for the larger point, again I'm not going to get worked up about it. For one thing, it all does balance out in the end - UNC's women's team (a one seed) gets to play LSU (a strong two) in New Orleans tommorrow, and the men's team has to play games in both Freedom Hall and Rupp Arena, neither of which is particularly friendly to our shade of blue. North Carolina and Kentucky both get a disproportionate amount of tournament sites in their states, due to the large college basketball fanbase and the multiple arenas uninhabitated by NBA teams.
There's a limit to how far the NCAA can shuffle teams around, and it's less fair to me to punish a top seed by shipping them across the country merely because coincidence put a regional site in their home state then it is to reward them for the happenstance alignment of ability and location. Like I've said elsewhere, people have been talking about the East Regional site as a carrot for UNC, Duke and Tennessee all season - to suddenly find it unfair at this stage is a little perplexing to me.
by T.H. on Mar 31, 2008 2:29 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for stopping by.
As a Kentucky fan, I can hardly disagree with the suggestion that it matters little to teams who traditionally wind up with top seeds. I am not suggesting in any way that Carolina gets favorable treatment. I am suggesting that no #1 seed should be allowed to play that close to home. I understand it happens, and has happened before. But if we confine the argument to the #1 seeds, as I have, then arguing some kind of hardship by moving them far enough away to make it a legitimately neutral site game is not convincing, and describing it as "punishment" is outright hyperbole.
I most certainly do think it is unfair for #1 seeds to get virtual home games for regional finals, and not just because it happened for Carolina this year. It is always unfair, no matter who it is, and I'll add a further argument to the reason just for the heck of it.
Carolina and a relatively elite group of other teams (including Kentucky and Duke among others) get a large number of high seeds over the years. That fact gives them a disproportionate advantage year in and year out that the vast majority of teams never get to enjoy. When they get the benefit of geography as well as seeding, it magnifies that advantage beyond what is reasonable. That inequity could arguably be the difference between a team moving from the middle-tier perennially to one of the higher seeds. In effect, the added advantage makes the rich richer and the poor poorer by increasing the likelihood, even marginally, that the #1 seeds get to the Final Four, and since the #1 seeds go disproportionately to a relatively small number of schools, it's easy to see why schools who do not get frequent #1 seeds would find this unfair.
That's not what the NCAA is ostensibly about. What justification is there for further rewarding #1 seeds in a tournament other than by giving them the inherent advantage of seed position? I argue there is no justifiable reason whatever. It distorts the tournament, and what is worse, is easy to fix. Treating it as a "reward" in addition to seed position is simply a misguided policy that needs to change.
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 31, 2008 7:16 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
close to home
Memphis 85, Texas 67....Yikes!
Guess Memphis was just the better team today; maybe they used the fact that they felt "no love" from the committee in the location as motivation since they were the #1 seed in this bracket.
Now, if the game had been close, I believe the visibly orange crowd would have come in quite handy for Texas.
by BigSkyCat on Mar 30, 2008 4:57 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
siting/seeding
However, I think that the system as it is probably has more good things going for it than alternative systems.
My question is: would you try to set up a system where no team is likely to get an advantage in the regionals? Or just the top seeds don't? Seems wrong to me to have a system that would say "no, UNC cannot play in Charlotte, but it's fine for Duke to play in Charlotte." Why would it be fair to give Duke the advantage and not UNC?
Conceivably, UNC, Duke, Tennessee, Davidson, and Clemson all might have been advantaged by playing in Charlotte rather than further away from their home campuses. Would it be fair for any of them to have that opportunity but deny it to UNC? Should the committee say, let's make sure all of these teams are slotted in other regions? (Therefore saying first, this is more important than other considerations, like not meeting an in-conference opponent early in the tourney, etc, and second, that the tourney should be arranged so that fans of good teams should be forced to travel far.)
There are definitely problems, like we saw in Charlotte. But no system is perfect, and I, for one, think the "earn it in the regular season" perspective is as good of an argument as any for doing it this way. Every team has the same opportunity to earn that favored position.
by johnr on Mar 31, 2008 2:02 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
I must have ...
If we eliminate the "pod" system, perhaps we could carry it down a bit further, but right now, I am just talking about the #1 seeds. I just don't see how forcing a top seed to play a true neutral site game in a regional final can be legitimately seen by anyone as "punishment."
I agree that no system is perfect, and under my system, it would be possible for a #2 seed to get a "home" game against a 1, which some would see as unfair. I disagree, because I think the more difficult path the 2 seeds take through the tournament more than makes up for the difference. The further down the seed ladder you go, the less of a problem a "home" game is. Now, arguably the #2 seed would wind up with a "home" game in the regional semifinal as well, but I don't consider that as much of a problem as giving it to a #1 seed in the regional final, and if the NCAA would just exert a little effort, they could probably avoid that scenario most of the time, as well.
This just requires a change in mindset. Right now, the mindset is that it is a good idea to reward a high seed. That needs to change to a mindset of ensuring no geographic advantages to high seeds, not punishment or forcing them cross country. I wouldn't, for example, have considered placing UNC in Arizona and UCLA in Charlotte, but I would have put UNC in Detroit, Memphis in Charlotte and Kansas in Houston.
The "earn it in the regular season" argument is fine for the #1 seed position, but the additional advantage geographic advantage of today distorts the tournament. When you consider my point above that the #1 seeds go to a disproportionately small number of schools, it exacerbates that inequity to the point of unfairness.
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 31, 2008 7:37 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
when we're back on top
by johnr on Apr 1, 2008 11:34 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Of course ...
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 2, 2008 7:41 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Would it perhaps be easier to put it this way?
A similar (albeit weaker) argument could be made for placing a game in Southern California most years; UCLA is often a very good team and a popular preseason favorite for a #1 bid. Putting lots of regionals in LA and San Diego would be a huge edge to them in the same sense: they would have many years where they get the opportunity to stay home and play in the tournament.
The counterargument to the regional problem really comes down to the whole point of the tournament: money. Placing the regional in N.C. is a huge cash cow for the NCAA. It's a lot easier to pack an arena with a home crowd, and it's not like the NCAA gets a cut from the hotel profits. You get loud crowds (i.e. good for TV), lots of spending money, and a very experienced event host. It's very hard to turn that down.
And one gentle counterargument to a point in Carolina March's post. It may seem to balance out to some degree, but that's only if you disregard the effect on the players in a given year. For example, the Louisville team of this year will never get the opportunity to play in a local regional, even though they played a #1 seed in effective home turf. While a different Louisville team may get that edge some day, that will never affect this year's team. It's one thing if the regional happens to land close to a #1 seed (and it's patently unfair to say that N.C. should never host a regional) but to program the high probability with such frequency is suspect.
(Note: I'm not much of a b-ball guy, but this is an interesting argument to me. I'm responding more to think this through than to "win" the argument, I don't mind being corrected at all.)
by Hooper on Mar 31, 2008 9:23 AM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Good Point
If anyone was watching the crowd shots of the Kansas v. Davidson game last night in Detroit, there were plenty of empty seats in the lower arena. You certainly didn't see that in the UNC v. Louisville game.
I can certainly understand the NCAA's point, but it sure seems like out of the entire eastern seaboard... there has to be more places to play a regional final site than just the state of North Carolina.
by chirop1 on Mar 31, 2008 10:21 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Where?
The last time the regional final was in NC was 1998, in Greensboro. Since then, it's been in East Rutherford, Syracuse, Philadelphia, Syracuse again, Albany, East Rutherford again, Syracuse again, Washington D.C., East Rutherford a third time, and now Charlotte. So yes, the NCAA can find more places, just apparently very few outside the state of New York. If only St. John's or Syracuse were capable of pulling down a number seed, huh?
The fact of the matter is, there aren't that many sites on the East Coast, especially since Atlanta, and Florida are usually lumped into the Southeast/South regional. You have five NBA teams (with Madison Square Garden locked into the NIT and the Boston Garden for some reason never used), one dome (Syracuse) and a couple of civic centers in Albany and Greensboro. The NCAA rarely puts a regional in a college gym anymore - Albuquerque and Syracuse being the prominent exceptions - there;s just no way you can't have a regional in NC every decade or so.
by T.H. on Mar 31, 2008 7:40 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Good arguments
Another argument would be, pick an arena that's not within X hours of car travel from the expected #1 team, but this stuff is arranged in advance. Even if the NCAA did wait until they had a reasonable estimate who would be the #1 seed in the east, then there would just be NO games in North Carolina, because, even though we don't like it here at the Sea of Blue, Duke and UNC are always in the running. And that's not really fair to the state of North Carolina. And is it fair, say, to avoid having it in North Carolina and instead have it near Syracuse (who might turn out to be a #2 seed)?
I think, some years, some teams are just going to have an advantage. It's hard enough to do the seeding as it is. Might as well reward the #1 seeded team if you are going to award any team - it's going to be the closest to some team in the region's home base.
One might argue that if one of the top teams is expected to go to the regional final, then they should be put in a different region. But I think this is excessively unfair to the fans. I think it's a bit much to ask the fans to travel long distances for fairness's sake. And think of the impact to the climate, all that extra fuel being wasted! Save the planet!! Think of the children!!! ;)
by EEWildcat on Mar 31, 2008 8:27 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or ...
Surely, that can't be difficult.
by Truzenzuzex on Apr 1, 2008 8:22 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Think of the children, Tru!
by EEWildcat on Apr 1, 2008 3:08 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hooper nails it...
Besides, it all ended well. Louisville lost after all! ;)
by EEWildcat on Mar 31, 2008 10:33 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
So you think ...
How interesting.
Naturally, I disagree. If the point of the tournament is money, then we should play all the games at the nearest large arena to the schools with the greatest fan following, not just the regionals. It would be no less fair than it is now, at least as far as determining the Four is concerned.
Somehow, I thought economic considerations aught to take a back seat to ensuring a fair and equitable tournament.
What was I thinking?
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 31, 2008 11:34 AM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't mean to imply that money should rule.
The biggest reason for spreading out the opening rounds is to maximize the number of sites that are available for bidding. Since effectively the whole country is available for the opening rounds, the NCAA can dictate more favorable terms for revenue sharing and get themselves a better deal. Additionally, it's great P.R. to have the tournament spread out in different places every year. The regionals, however, are worth more money than the opening rounds. They're going to go to the places with the best bid package and the best guarantee of economic draw. In that regard, N.C. is really the best place in the country for a college hoops tournament venue. They can't have it every year, or people would really get jaded, but the NCAA has interest in holding there as often as they can.
I agree that a fair tournament would be the best approach (and would result in better long-term financial potential). But that's simply one argument in favor of the current system. I tend to get cynical when a lot of money is involved - particularly when the deal makers are a lot closer to the money than to the fans.
by Hooper on Mar 31, 2008 3:32 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ah ...
I am totally fine with spreading out the opening rounds to wherever, as I said. I am only concerned about the regionals, and primarily with regional finals and #1 seeds, which narrows it down.
With respect to the regionals, it really doesn't matter to me where they are, or what the deals are as long as the NCAA drops the silly notion that #1 seeds should be rewarded with semi-home games in addition to their seed. North Carolina is a fine venue, I agree, and I wasn't arguing we shouldn't hold regionals there, merely that if UNC, Duke, NC State, etc. should not be in that region if they are a #1 seed.
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 31, 2008 3:55 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Hugs and kisses, everybody!
It's a tough thing. The NCAA is looking to maximize both profit and popularity, and it's hard to find the best balance. Since I'm not in their shoes, I'll give some grace as to how it all works out, but I do agree that they need to assess their balance and realize that their format is open to some serious and honest criticism.
Even worse to me is the lack of control they have over CBS's airing practices. I think it'd be in everybody's interest if somebody would ensure that local fanbases would see the games that their teams are playing without interruption. That Tennessee/Butler game that went into OT? They cut out to catch the end of the Texas game - in Knoxville. Those kinds of details are the ones that tell me they're more concerned about squaring away contracts than about the end product. The whole point of the tournament is to let the fans see how good their team is compared to the best in the nation - at the end of the season, when every team is at its peak of maturity. With that in mind, the fans should at least see their teams.
So, yeah, you'll get absolutely no argument from me that they can do better.
by Hooper on Mar 31, 2008 4:22 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Ultimately
Shouldn't that be the motto of all teams at this stage of the year?
by BigSkyCat on Mar 31, 2008 12:26 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Should
Somehow a fair equitable tournament should be more important than economic considerations but lets not kid ourselves. THe NCAA is all about the dollar bill yall.
by davw83 on Mar 31, 2008 1:51 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
But ...
The best way to kill this golden goose is by wringing every single cent out of it at the cost of equity.
by Truzenzuzex on Mar 31, 2008 4:00 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Did somone...
by wldcatsfreak on Mar 31, 2008 5:41 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
Tru and I happen to be in lock-step on this issue.
by Ken Howlett on Mar 31, 2008 6:05 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting stat that could be related to this,,,
by TrickyD26 on Mar 31, 2008 8:30 PM EDT reply actions 0 recs
Thinking about ACC teams...
by chirop1 on Apr 1, 2008 1:25 PM EDT up reply actions 0 recs

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