Embracing the hate
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 7:27 AM EST
225 comments
In his latest piece, Mark Bradley, sports opinion writer for the Atlanta Journal-Constitution, held forth thus:
For the record, I was born in Kentucky and graduated from UK and worked at the Lexington Herald-Leader covering, among other things, Kentucky basketball. Also for the record, I haven’t written a word about Big Blue hoops in more than a calendar year, for the simple reason that Billy Gillispie has turned Kentucky into a program barely worthy of comment.
And how, you’re asking, is the guy who was pushed aside to make room for the overmatched Gillispie doing? Tubby Smith’s Minnesota Golden Gophers are 10-0, having just beaten Louisville, which is coached by Rick Pitino, who was Smith’s predecessor at UK. Here’s Myron P. Medcalf of the Minnesota Star-Tribune on Tubby’s latest triumph. And here’s the famous Andy Katz of ESPN.com proclaiming Minnesota his team of the week.
Now, you'll all probably remember Mark Bradley as the author of this opinion piece last year blasting Kentucky fans and Mitch Barnhart for not " ... having grasped the reality of 21st century basketball ..."
Memo to Mark -- yes, we have grasped it, if reluctantly ... well, most of us, anyway. Did you notice that there was no uprising despite an 18-13 team last year, worse than any Smith effort on record? Many Kentucky fans reached the conclusion that Tubby Smith could not take UK where it wanted to go again. We may be wrong about that, but that was the feeling here, anyway. Ten years is a long time to coach at Kentucky, and ten years is a long absence from the Final Four at UK. Call us spoiled and obnoxious if you want. Trust me, we're used to it. As for Barnhart being a weasel, well, there goes your interview.
However, it would help if you would go talk to Smith himself about why he left. Maybe then, you could embrace his decision as best for both UK and Tubby Smith. See, he gets to coach a team now with his son, something we would never have allowed him to do at UK. Win-win, Mark. By the by, don't remind us you are a Kentucky boy. We are all trying hard to forget that.
As far as Gillispie is concerned, well, the jury is still out on him, but if you have been paying attention (to UK, not just Minnesota), the evidence is getting real strong in Coach Gillispie's favor. Yes, he still has a ways to go, but calling him "overmatched" these days does not look justifiable, and you may be the only person with an opinion on sports outside of the addled Billy Reed who agrees with that conclusion. That doesn't make you wrong, of course, but it does put you out on a limb that most of us actual UK fans will relish sawing out from under you.
So I'll join you, Mark, in congratulating Coach Smith and the Golden Gophers. You see, we've moved on -- heck, it's been 18 months or so since Smith left. Perhaps you should move on, too. But if you aren't willing to do so, it's OK ... we're all about embracing the hate around Kentucky these days. Write your negative screeds with my blessings.
But please, don't remind us where you're from.
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As I noted, too
If Kentucky, who hired a black coach and made him the highest paid coach in the game, supported him until HE DECIDED TO LEAVE ON HIS OWN and DID NOT FIRE HIM, still can’t get any credit or peace, then pardon my french, but Fuck it. So we’ll be the team everyone pays to hate, the team that brings in ratings as the Evil Empire.
So long as it’s also in the Final FOur, bringing home hated titles and stomping the life out of Cinderella, count me the Frack in, baby.
The myth that perpetuates that Kentucky “pushed Smith aside” despite PAYING HIM A 3 MILLION DOLLAR GOLDEN PARACHUTE TO MINNESOTA simply will not die. Then don’t let it. Learn to love being hated. It will make life so much more enjoyable.
The Heart & Mind of the Big Blue Nation ...
by JL Blue on Dec 24, 2008 7:43 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Truly ...
… that word was not French. :-)
But you are correct, of course. A shame that guys like this who spend paragraphs reciting their bona fides can’t or won’t see the truth.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 7:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tru. "Embracing the Hate" is not the answer. Recognizing the fall-out of Tubby's leaving is.
This is the way the situation is perceived outside of Kentucky. It is perception and perception is seen as reality. Here are some of those perceptions:
- having a SECOND GREAT coach who had been very successful “CHOOSE” to leave UK makes recruits and their parents think that UK is a shadow of what it was and not really worthy of their consideration.They parents feel their kids just won’t fit in. They look to Smith and Pitino and see that they didn’t seem to fit in. Tubby’s problem was not character, but race. Pitino’s was his strong Yankee Catholicism. That’s how the rest of the world sees it.
- as proven by this year’s Minn. performance, Tubby can recruit so his lack of recruiting could not be the reason why he did not enjoy acceptance at UK. Whether he can win the whole thing at Minn, is still a question to be answered, but he if he does KY’s reputation will suffer.
- Tubby does have a new, younger and better staff than he had at KY. The fact of having his son coach with him should never have gotten in our way, but it did. Many of us did not think Sean was KY caliber, but oh could we use him this year. I wonder, if he becomes more successful than his dad, if we would try to go get him . . .NOT! Based on the way he was treated,, all the money in the world would not lure him here. Too many bad memories.
- If KY plays and loses to Minn. UK’s reputation will suffer.
- The state for whatever reason sends an illusion of our inability to accept those whose are different. In fifty years, the population of this country will be made up of a majority of peope of color. The tradition of always electing a white President will soon be mathematically impossible.That gives the current population that much time to see if we can learn to accept people based on their character not the color of their skin.
- As a parent or grandparent, I would want my child going to a school where the coach is a person of character who can coach and who will surround my son with other talented kids of character. Making the final four is important, but not essential to these parents. Look at the rise of smaller Div. 1 schools attracting extremely talented basketball players. The parity of college talent makes it possible for any schooll to win it all.
- the hurt feeling within the state and the suspicions of of the “world” of a person of character being “pushed out” when he “had it all” at KY continue to beg the question, “WHY?” Asking for people to “give it up” and “accept the hate?” doesn’t get at the core of the dissapointment over the whole situation.
Coach G never had anything to do with this situation and is trying his best to bring KY’s reputation back, but in order to do that, he must win a national tittle. This is a daunting task that very few really good coach’s could do. Why do you think so many good coaches turned us down. Because, unless they won a national title, they would be considered a coaching “failure”. Even if they won 99% of their games! It is a ridiculous standard that put undue pressure aon everyone involved in the program.
All we can do is learn from the past and support our current coach and hope that the people responsible for making things difficult on the previous coach and his family learned their lesson. Be careful what you hope for, you just might get it.
by Blueobsessed on Dec 24, 2008 9:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby needs to learn the lesson
Of how to recruit players who actually belong on a basketball court at the Div. 1 level. He was pushed out because of the product on the court and where the program was heading. He was at the helm when UK became an afterthought. Do UK fans need to chill sometimes? Absolutely. Doesn’t change the fact half of Tubby’s recruits shouldn’t have been playing for Rhode Island(no offense Lamar Odom), much less UK. I saw more smiles on players faces in the last five minutes of the Tenn. State game then I saw the last five years under Tubby. That says something.
by daniel81 on Dec 24, 2008 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
When I say pushed out
I don’t mean by the administration. Don’t shoot me Tru.
by daniel81 on Dec 24, 2008 10:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I loved the way we played, too, but that doesn't mean Tubby could recruit.
Rondo
Bradley
Crawford
Harris
Stevenson
Porter
Meeks
Jasper
Patterson (yes he was coming anyway)
Morris
The fact that for whatever reason, they were never able to play together healthy and for an extended time was unfortunate. It does remain that they were recruited by Smith. Obviously his recruitment has been pretty good this year at Minn. beating out UK for Sampson and beating Louisville and I think Memphis. Is he still unbeaten? Did Tubby ever lose to Gardner Webb or VMI? Smith is recognized still by most as a very good recruiter and an outstanding defense-minded game coach. He is able to adjust during the game.
Whatever the reason Tubby left for the frozen tundra of Minn., it was not because of stuff he did. The only thing Minn. had to offer him was a more tolerant atmosphere and less BS.
by Blueobsessed on Dec 24, 2008 12:43 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Don't agree
If he didn’t leave, I think he would have been fired within three seasons. The Patterson speculation is just that, speculation. Rondo wasn’t good enough to start under Tubby, if that tells you anything. Crawford and Bradley weren’t half the players under Tubby they were under Billy G. Meeks had a good freshman year, I’ll give ya that. I guess I misspoke, Smith can recruit, but he can’t develop. Funny how you left off Carter, Perry, Alleyne, Orbpoop and many others off that list.
by daniel81 on Dec 24, 2008 1:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
here we go again
response from 40 coming in 3…2…1… ;-)
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 24, 2008 2:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
A Little Late
Patterson’s PARENTS tole me that before the USC game in Columbia last winter. Not seculation on their part.
Tubby would have won 25 or more games at UK in 2008 season. Morris would have played his senior year. Patterson and Jai Lucas would have been Wildcats.
Crawford and Bradley improved every year at UK regardless of which coach. Several TAMU players had better years in 2008 under a new coach there. Blame Gillispie?
The comment about Tubby not devloping players is so absurd it deserves no reply.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 10:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
with all due repect...
…you can’t say that anyone “would have " won any amount of games or players "would have” stayed…
You’re great with stats forty, but you’re not Psychic… er, are you.?
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 26, 2008 10:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My Opinion Based On Facts
Fewer injuries. Morris back for senior year. Lucas AND Patterson the roster.
And substantially more W in OOC play – probably 4 or 5 more W. More W in SECT also – another 1or 2 W there. He averaged 12-4 in SEC over 10 years so last year (12-4) was just what was expected.
Yes, 25 W or more. Better roster. Fewer injuries.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 11:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Uh, not quite.
Tubby had gone a paltry 9-7 in the SEC for the last TWO CONSECUTIVE YEARS before he got out.
I don’t know of anyone who seriously thinks he could have produced the 12-4 record that BCG got out of our guys. We would have been lucky to get another 9-7 year — look how he bombed in conference up in Minnesota (losing record there).
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 27, 2008 12:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not The Same Guys
Morris would have returned. Lucas would have signed with UK.
But UK would have EASILY had 4 or 5 more W in OOC play, no doubt.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Are you even talking about the same coach?
tubby had his rondo recruiting year, What was before and after that? daniel81 is right. Bradley and crawford were no where near the level they were after BG got through with them. I don’t even agree with some of those recruits you put on there as “good”. Porter? stevenson only just became into himself. Rondo left because tubby wouldn’t play him. Patterson would not have come here with tubby at the reigns…hell no one wanted to in his final few years. I’m glad tubby is doing well at Minn. I have no ill well toward him and he will do well there. but do NOT sit there and tell us that tubby was the “greatest coach at KY ever”. no you didn’t say it. Your thinking it. tubby is a great coach at minnesota;he’ll do well. but at KY? he just can not deliver.
by BleedinUKBlue on Dec 24, 2008 3:44 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby's Golden Gopher Way will repeat itself this year.
2007-2008 SEASON:
Go 10-1 to start the year by playing Kennesaw State and the Dakotas.
Play real teams thereafter and go 8-11 the rest of the regular season.
2008-2009 SEASON:
Play traditional powers Concordia and High Point and start year 12-0.
Go 8-10 in conference (predicted) and finish again without NCAA bid.
Man, that Tubby can coach!
I’ll be rooting for the Tubster and his golden prairie rats, but will not be among those who are afraid to admit his limitations just because he’s black and they are afraid of being called a bigot. Nor will I pretend we didn’t run the man off. Anyone who continues to claim we did not run him off is simply intellectually dishonest. We meant to run him off and we are glad we did, and the vast majority of us is honest enough to admit it. That does not mean we do not wish him well at Minnesota.
It’s like having a family corporation being run by Junior after the old man dies. When Junior proves he can’t deliver, the board of directors pressures him out the door, and replaces him with somebody who can get the job done. That doesn’t mean Junior is evil, or that we no longer love him, or that we can’t “move on.” It simply means we recognize his limitations, and excuse him from being in a position where he cannot succeed.
Tubby will survive and succeed at Minnesota based largely on the panache conferred upon him by Rick Pitino and the University of Kentucky, but never again will he ever come close to winning a national championship.
In all of his years (nay, decades) in professional coaching, the only Final Four Tubby has is with Rick’s ’98 team. Two consecutive years of single digit wins in the SEC and ZERO final fours with any of his own teams tells you all you need to know.
The fact that all of our athletes in the NBA seem to develop extraordinary talents only AFTER they get out from under Tubby’s tutelage says even more about his limitations.
The fifty million guys who transferred out from under him only to excel elsewhere were equally illuminating, and almost as irritating as having to watch Wildcat teams who had absolutely no concept of offense year after year. I am among the millions who thank God those days are over.
No, I think in our hearts we all know our beloved Tubby is not an elite coach, and he never will be. But we will root for him nonetheless, and the vast majority will indeed celebrate the occasional lightning strike like the victory over the Cardinals.
Go’Cats! Go Tubby! Prove me wrong, big guy!
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 24, 2008 10:26 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2008 And 2009
Minnesota won 9 games in 2007 with the same players and the same reatively weak schedule. 9-22 record.
So 20 W in 2008 was a huge improvement under very simlar circumstances.
Minnesota figures to have 22 or 23 W on Selection Sunday and will probably earn NCAA bid. They haven’t earned many of those in the past decade. 1 or 2 maybe.
And now I now than “Ken Pomery” here is one of the Dynasty Defenders ilk.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 12:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's a very personal comment,
Please avoid making those. Disagree all you want, but dispense with accusing people of being associated with Dynasty Defenders. In my book, that is a nasty, personal accusation.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 9:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK
But I recognize the words, almost by rote.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 10:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Folks should stop pretending Minnesota has no basketball tradition.
This is a program with eight Big Ten regular season championships and a Final Four as recently as ‘97, the year before Rick handed Tubby his one and only (and the Gophers won the NIT that year). That means that Minnesota’s Final Four experience has been exactly what ours has been since ’98.
In fact, despite all of the claims that the Gophers just suck and are terrible and it will take a magician to get them a winning season, etc., the truth is that they have a very proud and successful tradition. Campbellsville’s own Kentucky boy Clem Haskins led them to two NIT championships and a 31-win Final Four season in the 90’s, on his way to being selected the National AP Coach of the Year.
Even after the horrible academic shenanigans and NCAA sanctions, they had more wins in 2005 than they had with Tubby last year, and went 10-6 in the Big Ten. Tubby went 8-10 in conference in his great turn-around year, by the way, so he doesn’t even have them back to where they were in 2005.
The one-year losing record the Gophers had the year before Tubby came was more of an aberration than a mark of the program’s quality. The year before that one, they had a winning record and two post-season wins. They’ve had only two losing seasons since the year 2000.
If Tubby works hard and recruits in the smaller pond that is the Land of the Lakes area, before long he ought to be able to have those boys back where they were when he came to Kentucky, just as BCG is working hard to get UK back to where we were when Rick handed the reins over to Tubby. But Tubby won’t be able to do it by playing Kennesaw State and having another losing record in conference.
With respect to the Dynasty Defenders comment, I can only repeat, again, that I love and root for Tubby, and will continue to do so. I will not pretend that he is more than he is. Hell, I even root for his alma mater, and my barbershop quartet has sung the national anthem for their basketball games a number of times. I hope we have to beat the Gophers in the finals for our next national championship — but I ain’t bettin’ my lunch money on that ever happenin’.
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 27, 2008 1:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It Is Unlikely
But BOTH schools will have strong contenders for NCAA title in 2010 or 2011.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby Recruiting At UK.
Top 5 classes in 1998 and 1999. Top 10 classes in 2000 and 2001. Top 15 classes in 2002 and 2006. Top 20 class in 2003. #1 class in 2004.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
and yet...
…all those top flight recruits that Tubby brought in produced zero FF’s…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 26, 2008 12:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If It's ALL About FF
Then UCLA and North Carolina are > Kentucky.
The current UK coach has never recruited a player who has been near a FF.
Dan Issel never made FF. Cotton Nash never made FF. Mike Pratt, Mike Casey, Tom Parker never made FF. Just to name a few. Not good players?
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 5:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
like you Forty...
…I was just stating a fact!
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 26, 2008 5:45 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
… I don’t think he said it was “all about” anything. The Final Four, frankly, is not a great measuring stick, but media hype has made it the de-facto measuring standard for elite programs. I have always argued your point of view, Forty, but in reality, there are many people who insist that final fours are very important, and that argument does have merit.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 6:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
UK Averages 2 FF Per Decade (1939 Thru 2008)
So Tubby was 1 short in that category.
It is A factor, not the only one. Kentucky was a prominent tema in the 1960’s yet made just 1 FF appearance. Ditto 1980’s.
The 4 FF in the 1990’s matched the total of the prior 3 decades.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 8:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tubby turned a National Championship program into a team that couldn't get double digit wins in the conference two years in a row.
The graph was pointed inexorably downward, and he knew he was helpless to do anything about it. That’s why he got out.
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 27, 2008 1:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's ...
… not true at all.
Smith’s graph was up and down. I tire of the argument that Smith did something to the program — he didn’t. Forty rightly points out that the program under Smith was well within the parameters of Kentucky’s historical averages.
There are plenty of rational, logical and defensible arguments to point out about Smith. This isn’t one of them, and is nothing more than absurd hyperbole. Smith won a national championship with a team that no rational fan expected to go that far. Five years later, he coached two teams back to back who got #1 seeds into the NCAA tournament, and ran the table in the conference, something that has not been done in my lifetime.
No matter what you think of Smith, he did not drag the program down at all. He was inconsistent as a recruiter, and it showed in his teams, and in his up and down years. That is what is defensible, logical, and supportable by facts. His last two years were very poor, and those years were a result of having too few quality players of sufficient maturity in the program at the time. But make no mistake, he was in the process of turning that around, as we can see in front of us now. His last recruiting class has been very good, even excellent, and Patterson surely would have come had Smith stayed.
Further to this point — you have been the only one who has made comments in here disrespectful to Tubby Smith. I will not tolerate any more. If you want to disrespect him, do it elsewhere. I demand, and I mean demand, that the man be respected on this blog, and I will not tolerate an imputation of deliberate bad behavior to him, because that is demonstrably false and inconsistent with what we know of him as a person. In my view, it is slander.
I trust I have made my point here.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 27, 2008 6:44 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
That's 100% Baloney
Tubby recruited players (100% his recruits) who won 77% of their games his last 5 years at UK.
He recruited Top 5 classes in 1998 and 1999, Top 10 classes in 2000 and 2001, Top 15 classes in 2002 and 2006, and #1 class in 2004. Just 1 class NR (2005).
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I have ...
… no idea what this is in reply to. This thread has become unwieldy.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 6:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OK, this is a long comment, so my response will be detailed.
Here are my responses:
- Recruits parents obviously don’t agree with your assertion that they think less of us because Smith left. The facts are, we are getting good recruits, and therefore, if this claim is true, it is true only to a minority.
- Why would UK’s reputation suffer if Smith wins at UM? Oh, I’m sure some media types like Bradley will dust off their “I told you so’s” but seriously, do we live and die by the opinions of guys like this? I think some fans do, and that’s too bad, but we just have to move on.
- If Kentucky plays and loses to Minnesota, our reputation should suffer. UK is a legendary program, and if the best we can do is come in behind a far smaller and less successful program, I will be first in line to complain. As of this moment, UK is significantly more talented, and better, at every position than Minnesota. If they can beat us right now, there can be only one reason — coaching. If that is so, don’t we as UK fans who wanted a change deserve to suffer a little at the hands of the media? Clearly, Bradley would then be able to make the point that Gillispie is in over his head, and I might agree with him.
- The state does not send any such “illusion” as you suggest. The illusion is created by media types like Bradley and others who ignore the fact that this state is far more progressive in the area of race relations than virtually all of its peers in the South and Southeast, and many in the Southwest and East. That is reality. Media perception is informed by Rupp’s alleged racism, which they have studiously kept alive lo these many years to a purpose only they know. I suppose it is to ensure they have a program to scold every time something happens to make them bemoan the state of race relations in sport.
- Please stay away from political commentary. I know you are trying to use the recent election as an example, but it is a poor one and is not relevant to the topic. Let’s stick to sports, that’s where the discussion belongs.
- Your desires acting as a parent are laudable. But do you have an elite athlete for a son or daughter? If not, I rather doubt that you can speak to that issue with anything like informed authority. Parents, like all people, are different, and that difference will be manifested in how they wish to see their children’s future dealt with. In any case, I can’t see what this has to do with the rest of your comments.
- My point about embracing the hate has to do with moving on. Constantly railing against viewpoints such as Bradley’s is understandable, but I prefer to examine the fact that he apparently doesn’t accept reality. He wants to impute evil to Kentucky fans that really isn’t there except for a tiny minority. He also wants to impute a motivation for Smith that Smith has repeatedly rejected, even to his close friends. What is left but to embrace the hate, given that it is not based on facts, but on attitudes that have no basis whatever in fact?
Winning a national title is not something Gillispie “must” do, at least not in the near term. He must get us back into a position to consistently compete for one, but we put up with a whole lot of Rupp and Joe B. Hall between Rupp’s last title and the next one. It is a case of walking before you run — in order to win a national title, you first have to have a team capable of competing for one. Ultimately, I think the success of Gillispie’s tenure at Kentucky will be informed by how quickly he is able to return us to competing for a national title. Winning one will just put him in Rupp’s rafters.
But at Kentucky, it is no longer necessary for us to bear the baggage of Smith’s leaving. It never was, really, but we took up that burden as though it were created especially for us, as many of the media insisted. It’s time to leave it in the dust and move on to bigger and better things, and for that to happen, we must embrace the hate as well as the joy of seeing our team finally moving in the right direction.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tru. I think I see your drift. Just don't ask me to "embrace the hate" on any
level, political or athletic. We are social beings and events of the last 18 months call us all to live at a higher level than the “perceptions of us” that may be held by the rest of the world. I am proud of UK basketball and of our all of our new recruits. Obviously they are coming to play for Gillispie as well as UK.
It is not our job to worry about what others think, just to be aware, learn and not let that type of fan/administration/alumni behavior happen again to any coach. If they are winning, are good people, let them coach, and good things will eventually happen.
My final point is that if Minn. were to defeat KY this year, it will be because of the “teamwork” they employ on the court and not the lack of talent we possess. I agree that we are more talented, but Minn. is not without talent. It is all according to how we play. A “team” can beat five superior individual players. VMI and Gardner Webb have illustrated that to us very vividly.
by Blueobsessed on Dec 24, 2008 1:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Teamwork is a byproduct of good coaching.
As is “how we play”. If Minnesota were to beat UK on the court this year because they played with better teamwork, then that would clearly be a case of superior coaching coming through.
by BBallSophist on Dec 24, 2008 1:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It is.
In the final analysis, “teamwork” reflects coaching.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree with both Sophist and Tru, but anyone who has coached at any level realizes
the unknow factor of playing a team with less talent. The underskilled team realizes each person’s responsibility is a must to the successful execution of a team plan. The skilled team can simply believe they can win on one-one moves and beating their man. The result is that one out of every ten times there is a tremendous upset.
I also want to say again, that for whatever reason, and maybe mistakabley, IMO two very very good coaches have chosen to leave UK after successful careers. Granted you may say in Tubby’s case that he did not meet “our high standards”. I say bunk to that, but that is no more than my opinion.
Why did I state that last paragraph? Because we need to understand that there are two outstanding coaches who “the powers that be” will want to see UK meet. We need to be ready with our A game. If we play at that level, I have no doubt we can defeat both of these teams. If on the other hand the players decide to “show us how good” they are, we will probably lose. We will have to play as a team. That is not just the coach’s job, or the PG’s job to make that happen, but every member 1 through 20 on the team.
by Blueobsessed on Dec 26, 2008 11:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Politics ...
… is a subject you brought up, not me. None of my comments are directed to politics. Any feelings you have in that arena are yours, and best left to other fora.
Athletically speaking, there is nothing that can prevent fans from agitating for a coaching change, and your suggestion that we “not let that … happen again” is beyond naive, unfortunately. Would that we could. Here at A Sea of Blue, we fought against the disinformation being put out by others such as Dynasty Defenders, but ultimately, it was irrelevant, just as it would be if it happened again. Keep in mind that whatever you think of Tubby Smith, his detractors had some solid arguments against him. I would argue not solid enough by any means to dismiss him, but some of them were factual and irrefutable, and even though it may have been weak, they had a case. I think we can all agree, though, that the execution was ethically troubled, and we said so here … many, many times.
Tubby Smith should have no regrets, and the vast majority of UK fans, whether they wanted him gone or not, should have none. Wanting a coach replaced, for whatever reason, is an opinion people are entitled to hold, whether they can actually defend it or not. It comes with the territory.
If Minnesota were to play and beat us this year, absent injury, it will be because they have superior coaching. I have seen their team play more than once, and they are most certainly not superior to UK teamwise or talentwise. That leaves only one option besides pure luck. Yes, VMI and Gardner-Webb were both better teamwise than we were then. I don’t think they would find that the case if either were to come into Rupp Arena today. In fairness to UK and Gillispie, G-W was a case of a new coach who was having trouble with players buying in. The VMI loss was less defensible, but VMI was full of seniors and the ‘Cats would not slow down despite Gillispie’s instructions to do so. Call it a combination of coaching failure and youth.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 3:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just glad to be able to have a country and a forum where differing opinions can be voiced and still accepted.
All I ask is that all fans realize that no coach will meet everyone’s expectations and that therefore the coach will at one time or other be unacceptable and “need” to be replaced. Call me “beyond naive”, that’s fair, just don’t ask me to arrogantly “embrace the hate.” While a loyal UK fan for over forty years, I must respect the other basketball programs and at least not personally attack “journalists” who are anti-UK.
by Blueobsessed on Dec 24, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fair enough.
Just to clarify, I don’t think you are “beyond naive.” I was referring to the sentiment you were expressing, a sentiment that I totally agreed with no too long ago. That was before I learned that hopes and high ideals are often dashed on the rocks of reality and the stubborn refusal of many to consider other than a partial set of facts.
I completely agree with your statement that " … no coach will meet everyone’s expectations and that therefore the coach will at one time or other be unacceptable and "need" to be replaced."
Finally, “embracing the hate” may indeed be arrogant, in a way, but the alternative is to respond to every specious and poorly formed opinion out there.
Merry Christmas!
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 25, 2008 6:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tru, you are one of the best writers in this blog. Thank you for your honesty.
You write with passion about UK basketball. You intrigue and challenge me. While we disagree on some matters we are both “blueobsessed”. My hope for you is a wonderful Christmas. May you enjoy the hope of the seaon.
Thank you again for having such a great site where we can be “politically incorrect” and wish each other a Merry Christmas"!
by Blueobsessed on Dec 25, 2008 8:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You are kind ...
… perhaps too kind. :-)
Thank you, really. It is disagreement that makes this place what it is, and your thoughtful dissent was excellent. You are absolutely right, we are both “blueobsessed.”
May the blessings of the season be with you as well, my friend. I am glad you are a member, and you are appreciated.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 25, 2008 9:29 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks. Just a good old boy from western KY who is
surrounded by love in the form of three dogs two grandchildren, my daughter and son (no in-laws in this family) from Lexington and a great deal of chaos. Can’t wait for my other son and his family to arrive from Texas tomorrow. But more than anything else, I have an undying hope for the days ahead. I am TRUly blessed this season. Same to you and yours TRU! Go CATS!
by Blueobsessed on Dec 25, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Just a reminder that Pitino had superior talent to Minn. Was it the coach's fault they lost?
by Blueobsessed on Dec 24, 2008 10:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would have to say ...
… yes, in the sense that Smith did a better job.
Wouldn’t you?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 25, 2008 6:30 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino Is Not The Coach He Was In Mid 1990's
Quite a bit over the hill, it says here.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 5:39 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't think I would say ...
… “over the hill,” though. I think the program he is at makes a big difference.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 6:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why So?
It didn’t both Denny Crum being at Louisville. Why should it hurt Pitino?
His 1990’s style has passed him by. Coaches adjust, players adjust. He didn’t (or hasn’t yet).
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino WAS a Genius
Pitino was one of the first coaches to figured out how to take advantage of two very significant rules changes in the college game: the 3-point shot and the 35-second clock. (Most coaches at the time opposed the changes, and tried to ignore them.)
Pitino utilized full court pressure to keep opponents from getting good shots, and he was willing to trade baskets when the trade was 3 points for 2. 33% shooting from 3-point land gets you the same number of points as 50% shooting for 2-pointers. (10 for 30 treys gets you the same number of points as 15 of 30 twos.)
Pitino recruited athletes who could play full court defense and shooters who could hit the three at around 40%. (Do I recall that Denny Crum forbid his players from shooting 3s?) At any rate, Crum fought the rule change; Pitino figured out a way to exploit it. In general, other coaches were slow to adapt game strategy and the types of players they recruited to play the new game.
Pitino exploited a change in the rules of the game to win a national championship at Kentucky. By the time he had won, other coaches were figuring out how to get players who could beat the press and hit 3s.
Great coaches do two things: (1) they figure out the game under the current rules, and (2) they recruit athletes who can and will do what the coach tells them to do.
Pitino was a great coach at UK because he was ahead of his peers in adjusting to the new game, and he recruited players who would do what he told them to do. Pitino is not yet a great coach at UofL because everybody is onto his game strategy now — and because some of the players he has now seem to have their own agendas.
Smith did a great job of recruiting 5 years ago — if you count the stars — but in general — those players didn’t do what Smith told them to do.
Gillispie seems to have a group of athletes who are willing to do what he tells them to do. Patterson, Stevenson, Meeks, Porter, Harris — basically Smith recruits — plus Miller and recently Galloway, and maybe Liggins.
What’s not totally clear is Gillispie’s understanding of the game. It’s pretty clear that he views defense as the key — tough belly to belly man defense. Offensively, last year he was promoting the grind it out, run out the clock, let Bradley and Crawford go one-on-one offense. This week he is promoting the quick transition, quick shot offense. This is not necessarily a contradiction; it’s his judgment about what his players can do.
This may be the new genius of coaching strategy.
by Fortunatus on Dec 26, 2008 10:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
These are very interesting observations, which I enjoyed reading.
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 27, 2008 1:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino Isn't A Genius Any More
Tubby has beaten him 5 out of 7 this decade.
And Tubby’s players at Minnesota seem to be doing what he tells them to do. He is 32-14 there (coming off 9-22 before he arrived).
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Perceptions
You are correct that ‘perceptions’ can become ‘reality’ if enough people believe the ‘perceptions’ they are being fed by media sources to whom they ascribe credibility. We see this happen all the time. This is the essence of politics.
You are correct that UK’s basketball program will lose some credibility….at least temporarily….if UK loses a basketball game to Tubby’s Minnesota team.
You did not draw two other conclusions that are almost certainly valid:
1) The powers will soon force a basketball game between UK and Minnesota, because this kind of a game would draw high TV viewership and ratings. Most likely, this will be accomplished through seeding and bracketing to encourage such a match-up in the 2009 or 2010 NCAA Tournament. I imagine Mitch Barnhart will also receive feelers involving financial incentives for a November match-up.
2) How much recruiting credibility did Rick Petino lose as a result of being defeated by Tubby recently? It isn’t exactly the same question, since Petino hasn’t had a public conflict with Tubby. But it’s a fair and legitimate question.
Let me suggest that Billy Gillispie’s eventual reputation and legacy at UK will be determined by winning consistently, within the rules. Let’s remember, Gillispie was not Mitch’s first choice to replace Tubby. However, Gillispie is almost universally recognized by smart people who know a lot about D-1 basketball as one of the nation’s brightest young coaching talents. If Mitch had not locked up Gillispie, I can assure you that another major program would have done so in short order. For instance, I have been told that Gillispie at that time was #1 on Jeremy Foley’s contingency list to replace Billy Donovan.
Gillispie is a good fit for UK because he is willing to make the kind of commitment of his own personal energies that is needed to make UK basketball successful by the high standard that UK’s Administration and fan base have carried over on a historical basis.
In other words, when you have seven NCAA Championships, the standards for future success are rigorous. Mitch clearly understands this. Whether or not others outside the UK family understand that….well, I honestly don’t care.
Tubby himself may not have fully understood it. When he lived in Lexington, he did not behave as if he understood it. That’s why he is gone now. It isn’t about race, and it certainly isn’t about double standards. Maybe Tubby’s success at Minnesota….if it pans out….is driven by a different kind of motivation. I have always believed Tubby is a good tactical basketball coach, and I wish him well.
Meanwhile, Gillispie is being given….and will be given….all the support and resources he needs to succeed at UK. If he succeeds, then UK will soon be back in the Top Five, the Final Four, and so forth. If he doesn’t succeed, than that would happen only because he falls short (as Tubby did) of the high standards held by UK’s fan base (the ultimate custodian of a tradition that has won seven NCAA Championships).
There is a key philosophical difference here. Tubby likes to prosecute the baseline game in the half court with big guys like Bernard Cote, Shagari Alleyne, Lukasz Obrzut, Jared Carter, and Morakinyo Williams. Gillispie likes to exploit a more energetic style of play with long perimeter athletes like Darius Miller, Deandre Liggins, Kevin Galloway, Jon Hood, and Dominique Ferguson. There are caveats, of course, but I believe thess basic principles will prove true.
Gillispie has the passion UK fans want, and he recruits with a great deal more energy than Tubby recruited at UK. We know this to be true, whether or not media columnists grasp it. If Tubby’s energies are replenished at Minnesota, that does not change the facts of his prior recruiting methodology in Lexington. Quite frankly, I have talked to an experienced NBA executive who told me Tubby did not have the energy to perform even the most routine recruiting tasks while at UK. That’s why Chris Lofton played for Tennessee. It’s why Tubby missed, over and over again, on key UK recruiting targets. And that’s why Tubby isn’t at UK anymore. If he succeeds at Minnesota, good for him.
Ultimately, Gillispie will sink or swim at UK based on whether he can….within the rules….recruit and coach athletic talent well enough to restore UK to the top of the SEC, and get UK ranked again on a regular basis in the polls. These are the elements that will re-establish UK as a candidate for high March seeds, and create the kind of bracketing advantages that get a team to the Final Four.
Someday soon, a Gillispie-coached UK basketball team will face a Tubby-coached Minnesota team on the hardwood. If Tubby wins, the media will howl “I told you so”. But if Gillispie wins, they will shut up, and then go looking for another scapegoat. To quote Jim McKay….“the thrill of victory, and the agony of defeat”. That’s the bottom line.
by Messenger on Dec 25, 2008 8:28 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Very interesting thoughts ...
… and I find little here with which to disagree.
Particularly noteworthy is your comment:
Meanwhile, Gillispie is being given….and will be given….all the support and resources he needs to succeed at UK. If he succeeds, then UK will soon be back in the Top Five, the Final Four, and so forth. If he doesn’t succeed, than that would happen only because he falls short (as Tubby did) of the high standards held by UK’s fan base (the ultimate custodian of a tradition that has won seven NCAA Championships).
I would say that Smith didn’t always fall short, and in fact, a bounce or two of the ball would have changed his fortunes to a large degree, but perhaps little else.
But in the end, it’s hard to disagree with the observations that it is ultimately the fans that are the custodian of UK’s legacy, a legacy which has been passed from generation to generation. Smith did a good job here, but his inconsistencies recruiting harmed his own legacy. In the end, though, he still brought us what we covet most. That’s the part I choose to remember.
I am certain that the sports media crave a UK/UM matchup, and it would not surprise me at all to see it happen this year.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 25, 2008 9:46 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Interesting comments....
Thank you for your gracious comments.
The statement “Smith did a good job here” has been….and will be….debated for a long time by those who are motivated by such a debate. Crystallized to its essence, the UK-Tubby debate currently being carried out by columnists like Mark Bradley, Andy Katz, and Greg Doyel is centered on this very question. To wit: if Tubby did, in fact, do a “good job” at UK, then (in the end) the intolerance of UK’s fan base for Tubby MUST have been racially based. That’s their implicit message. It is an unsubstantiated slur on UK specifically, and on Kentuckians in a more general sense.
To candidly put it another way, some of these high-handed media types want to use their pulpits to convey the notion that we poor, dumb hillbillies are still living out the issues of the civil war. They were willing to smear Adoolph Rupp’s memory to make their point, and they are willing to destroy UK’s reputation now to cover their butts.
But, in the end, this is not about Tubby or Billy. As you correctly pointed out, it is about the very high standards for success that are nurtured and supported by UK’s fan base. In the final analysis, UK fans are the true custodians of that tradition. And Tubby is gone now precisely because he did not sustain his coaching performance at a level of success that was acceptable to rank-and-file UK fans.
Did Tubby do a “good job” at UK? In 1998, he certainly did a good job. He did a good job" in several other seasons in the early part of this decade, too. But three years outside the Top 25 is not a “good job” by traditional UK standards, and nobody in their right mind should expect UK fans to accept it. The rest is just sensationalistic journalism, written by people who don’t understand what it is like to be a lifelong UK basketball fan or a UK player….or UK’s AD.
by Messenger on Dec 25, 2008 11:57 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, He Did
He won 1 NC, made 4 Elite 8, 6 Sweet 16 in 10 years. All are right at UK historical standards in NCAA.
He won 76% of his games and 72% in NCAA games. Both right at UK historical standards.
He won 5 SEC titles and 5 SECT champs in 10 years. Again, right at UK historical norms.
But some folks think 1996-97-98 are UK historical norms. They are not.
UK won 1 NC in the 3 decades of the 1960’s – 70’s – 80’s. That’s 1 in 30 years.
UK made 4 FF in those 30 years, pretty close to 1 in 10 years.
Adolph Rupp had his “1996-97-98” run in 1940’s with 6 FF (3 NIT, 3 NCAA when the tournaments were simlar in prestige) and 2 NCAA plus 1 NIT title. That’s 6 FF and 3 national titles in 10 years.
Over the next 23 years, he won 2 NCAA titles and made 3 FF appearances. Quite a dropoff from the 1940’s.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 12:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
All true.
And that’s why I think he did a good job.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 9:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Have to look at the whole picture, and then understand what is expected at UK
Your recitation of the stats shows historical insight. Respectfully, though, you are climbing a slippey slope when you invoke an argument like “1996-97-98 are not the norm”. Of course, we all know UK will not win the NCAA Championship every year.
However, rank-and-file UK fans expect UK’s coaching staff to field a solid, athletic, highly competitive basketball every year, and for the staff to pursue that historical standard vigorously and professionally at every possible opportunity.
Frankly, the stats you cite would be stellar in many other places. But every UK basketball coach in the last 60 years except Eddie Sutton has won at least one NCAA Championship. I have no doubt whatsoever that Sutton himself would have joined that list if he had lasted at UK as long as Tubby lasted.
And let’s be clear about this. Tubby won his NCAA Championship with Rick’s players. The longer Tubby played in Lexington with his own recruits, the steeper the decline became.
Here’s the thing….and there is no getting around this. We can conclude quite a bit more from the stats. UK finished the 2004-05 season as the nation’s #10-ranked team. Then, in 2005-06 and 2006-07, the Cats were unranked. In fact, in 2006-07, the Cats didn’t even receive a single vote in the polls. Lest we forget….Tubby was working on long losing streaks to SEC East Division rivals Florida and Vanderbilt. In the meantime, many key recruiting targets were missed by Tubby’s staff. And as I already recounted on an earlier post, people all over the basketball world were aware that Tubby wasn’t recruiting vigorously.
Now, we can regurgitate all of Tubby’s early accomplishments at UK. We can also recall that while Merlene Davis, members of the Louisville clergy, and others were publicly catharsing and lambasting UK over Tubby in the early 2000s, Tubby himself sat back and drew his million dollar salary without ever uttering a single public word in defense of the employer who gave him every possible resource for success and made him one of the wealthiest coaches in NCAA basketball. Tubby is certainly entitled to his privacy, but the picture that is being painted about UK in the media now is very, very unbalanced.
Here’s the bottom line. In the end, Tubby’s two final UK teams were unranked because Tubby himself did not work hard enough to make them competitive. UK could not compete with Florida or Vandy, and was in the process of becoming a second-tier SEC program. Tubby may have reasons for not having been motivated, but UK’s basketball program deserved better. UK’s fans knew it. Mitch Barnhart knew it. Evidently, Tubby himself knew it, since he resigned.
Tubby may be reinvigorated at Minnesota. That’s wonderful. We wish him well.
But the notion that Tubby was treated with a double standard by the people of the Commonwealth and UK’s Administration is unmitigated nonsense. Basically, this is sensationalistic journalism at its worst. UK gave Tubby the opportunity of a coaching lifetime. As Tubby lost his enthusiasm over a decade in the spotlight….while pulling in millions in salary and perks….his teams gradually became less and less competitive. This is not an opinion. It is a matter of public record.
by Messenger on Dec 26, 2008 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
UK Was 131-40 (77%) His Last 5 Years At UK
Hardly a failure. Better than UK historical norm (76%) in fact.
The 2006 and 2007 teams were subpar compared to his 1998 thru 2005 teams. But many (perhaps most) UK fans wanted him gone in 2005 also.
Early 2000’s. SEC champions in 2000. SEC and SECT champions in 2001, NCAA Sweet 16. Another Sweet 16 in 2002. Undefeated SEC and SECT champions in 2003, #1 ranked team in AP poll. SEC champions in 2004, #1 overall seed in NCAA tourney.
Those 5 years comprise the Early 2000’s. Why apologize for the above?
The “Tubby Won 1998 NCAA With Pitino’s Players” argument is so absurd even Pitino disagrees with it.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 5:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Good points
Gillispie is winning now with Tubby’s players.
by Fortunatus on Dec 26, 2008 10:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Incorrect
Your statement is a distortion of the truth. Although this is only Gillispie’s second season at UK, five of the top eight Wildcats scorers (and five of the top nine Wildcats in terms of minutes played per game) are Gillispie recruits….
Patterson
Miller
Liggins
Harrellson
Galloway
by Messenger on Dec 27, 2008 1:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fairness ...
… Would require that we acknowledge Patterson probably would have been here regardless. Let us say it is 50/50, and since we are speculating here, it likely would have been more true had Jasper stayed — which would have unquestionably made us a better team.
So it is a distortion, but a minor one.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 27, 2008 7:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Respectfully, I do not agree
Fairness? You lost me there. I believe the truth is the fairest way to assess the issue.
Candidly, Pat Patterson would be a Florida Gator if Tubby had stayed at UK. Want evidence? Patterson himself was in the stands in Gainesville doing the Gator chop with the Florida crowd on national TV when then #4-ranked Gators defeated UK on March 4, 2007. I saw that with my own eyes, and so did Mitch Barnhart and scores of UK insiders. Patterson and his parents have been quoted on several occasions as confirming UK did NOT lead for Pat’s services until Gillispie’s in-home visit in May, 2007 (less than two weeks before he was signed by Gillispie). Prior to that, Pat’s mother made statements at times indicating her respect for Tubby. Some UK fans have spun Mrs. Patterson’s respect for Tubby into a false notion that UK was in the lead for Pat, but we now know that was not actually the case.
Bottom line: Tubby’s 2005-06 and 2006-07 UK teams were unranked. Tubby was making one of the highest salaries in D-1 sports, and UK’s Administration did not feel they were getting their money’s worth. When you get down to the nitty gritty, I guess Tubby must have agreed with them, because he resigned and went elsewhere. The rest of this discussion is collateral to the basic fact that Tubby is gone now of his own free will. I’m sure we all hope Billy Gillispie will do better.
And as for the purported racial issue….the fact that UK has an African-American football coach-in-waiting, an African-American defensive coordinator, and two African-American assistant basketball coaches pretty clearly blows that argument out of the water. Tubby is gone because he underachieved, and then resigned.
by Messenger on Dec 27, 2008 11:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
"Fairness ..."
… was a partial thought that got misdirected. Sorry.
We will never know about Patterson, but I am of the opinion, and have it on reasonable authority that he was likely to be a Wildcat either way. I am unwilling to press the point, we will never know for sure. Those same quotations you refer to did not identify anyone who led for Patterson’s services, so that argument is entirely unconvincing, as is the fact he was doing the Gator chomp. Any kid in his position might have done the same, and many recruits have said they were going to do one thing and then ultimately decided to do another. The fact that Patterson indicated closeness to home was a major factor is far more dispositive than any evidence you cite.
I challenge you to support your argument that “UK’s Administration did not feel they were getting their money’s worth.” I don’t think that is the case at all, and the money thing had nothing to do with it. Any coach in Smith’s position would have been making approximately the same salary. If you had said that they didn’t think Smith was getting the job done, I would be inclined to agree, but the two concepts are not the same thing.
Smith has said why he resigned. You can impute some other motivation, but that does not make it so. I join you in the hope Gillispie will do better, and I think he will do better than the last two seasons, anyway.
I don’t see anywhere in my comments where I brought up the racial issue. It was addressed in my main post, but I think I pretty much said the same thing you did.
Smith is gone because he resigned. He also underachieved in his last two years, at least. Whether or not the two are connected will remain forever speculation, unless Smith or someone else involved comes forward with facts.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 28, 2008 12:16 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well....
Of course the two are connected. That’s as clear as the blue sky. It’s the most obvious connection in this entire dialog.
The racial issue is the crux of the recent bruhaha in the media. I did not intend to imply that you fanned it yourself. If you took that implication, then please excuse my failure to clarify.
Due to my own obligations, I am limited what I can say here in public in response to your challenge. But there is no doubt about what UK officials have said directly to me. They had no reason to mislead me. In the larger picture, I suppose it doesn’t matter what we say about it now on an internet board.
That being said, your board does a good job with all of these dialogs, and I enjoy reading it.
Happy New Year.
by Messenger on Dec 28, 2008 12:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I would argue ..
… that isn’t necessarily the case that they are connected. Smith may well have decided that the crucible of coaching in Kentucky was more than he wanted, and wanted the opportunity to coach with his son, which would never have been granted here. It is entirely possible, and in fact likely that his actual reasoning might be at odds with the conclusions one could draw by simply connecting the dots. So I am reluctant to do so.
With respect to the racial issue, yes, that is truly what drives the media frenzy. I simply misunderstood where you were coming from. Sorry about that.
Vis a vis the revelations of sources, I would not dare suggest that you were misled. However, I am always skeptical of anyone claiming inside information, and in general, I reject it out of hand. We have no idea what officials you were speaking to, or what definition of “officials” you are using. I have had many people tell me many things assuring me that they got it straight from the horses’ mouth, and all of them cannot be correct since most are directly in conflict with each other. I therefore assume the truth must be somewhere in-between, as it often is.
As you suggest, in the end, it matters little. Thanks for coming by, you are always welcome here. You do a fine job over at Wildcats Thunder (if you are the same Messenger that posts and comments there) and I enjoy reading your work as well. It is outstanding.
Happy New Year to you as well.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 28, 2008 4:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not So
His parents told me he was UK bound had Tubby stayed. UK did CERTAINLY lead for Patterson in March 2007.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
that's not proof
no matter who may or may not have told you.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 29, 2008 2:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Certainly It Is
HIS PARENTS said that.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 3:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you say his parents told you
not proof.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 29, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's put it this way.
It’s not proof you are willing to accept. For the record, I don’t accept proof like that either. I acknowledge it, but in general, I reject all “insider” information. Not because I don’t believe people, but because I have been burned too many times — once bitten, twice shy.
So I remain skeptical no matter how high my opinion is of the person providing the data. I do believe that Forty is telling the truth, but that doesn’t reach the level of “proof.” Plus, I have heard others who claim to be in the know say the direct opposite. I can’t judge who is right and who is wrong, so I simply reject them all.
No offense intended to anyone involved.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 29, 2008 3:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
exactly
as i said below, i’m not debating whether 40 is right or not. i’m just saying what he considers to be fact, isn’t.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 29, 2008 3:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed.
Nobody really knows. I believe Forty is correct, but not because he says so. Rather, I take Patterson’s comments just after he committed to be dispositive.
But Forty’s conversation does support my view.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 29, 2008 3:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
not debating whether patteron would be at UK
just the validity of his proof. I think Patterson would probably hae come here anyway, but it’s not fact. and saying his parents told you doesn’t make it so.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 29, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I agree.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 29, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You Can't Prove What Might Have Occurred
But you CAN prove what would have occurred. Patterson and Lucas were UK bound in March 2007.
Give credit where due. Gillispie made a HUGE save to keep Patterson UK bound.
But Tubby was a big reason why he was interested in UK at all. (His own words, in quotes)
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clipped From 2007 Links
Patterson was near decision before Tubby’s departure (Mar23)
Patrick Patterson’s college decision hinged greatly upon Tubby Smith coaching Kentucky next season, his high school coach, Lloyd McGuffin, told the Kentucky Kernel. “Big, a real big factor,” McGuffin said in response to Smith’s influence on Patterson’s decision. The coach went on to say the McDonald’s All-American was nearing a choice before the news of Smith’s departure came about.
Decision on Tubby will affect Patterson (Feb27)
Heralded prospect Patrick Patterson, one of the most highly coveted recruits in UK basketball history, told the Herald-Leader that Kentucky coach Tubby Smith was the “main reason” he was considering Kentucky. If UK were to dismiss Smith as coach, “I’d be very disappointed,” Patterson said. “It’d affect my decision.” Asked whether he’d scratch Kentucky from his list of six schools, Patterson said, “Probably.” Patterson, a 6-foot-8 power forward and McDonald’s All-American from Huntington, W.Va., plans to narrow his list of schools to three by mid-March. He’s also considering Duke, Florida, West Virginia, Wake Forest and Virginia. He plans to make his college choice April 3.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 3:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
here's why this is frustrating
i’m not debating whether patterson would have been here or not, or if tubby was why he wanted to be here. not once have i said otherwise. i think he would have been here anyway.
the only thing i’ve said is that saying someone told you something (no matter who it is) isn’t the end all be all. it doesn’t make it fact. i hope you understand that this time.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 29, 2008 10:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Both SOMEONES Are Parents Of The Players
Pretty factual to me.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 30, 2008 6:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
but there is no reason for any of us to believe you.
i’m not saying you’re not truthful, but like tru says, anytime anyone says they know someone who told them something, most people take it with a grain of salt, or reject the insider info altogether.
that’s the part you don’t seem to understand in my viewpoint.
i’m done with it.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 30, 2008 9:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Fine
I happen to have connections to both.
One through my stepdaughter.
Another through a childhood friend who is lawyer in WV whose son played against Patterson in summer leagues.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 30, 2008 10:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Very good point.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 29, 2008 4:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
MESSENGER, you are precisely on the mark.
And I believe your observations are very much in line with the vast majority of UK fans around the world.
Thank you for taking the time to share them. It obviously takes a good chunk of time to think through all of that and reduce it to writing. I thank you for taking the time to do so.
Despite our best efforts, we cannot get Forty and the other professional Smith apologists to understand that it is not the early wins that we decry. It is the slow, painful decline from National Champion to unranked also-ran with single digit SEC wins for two consecutive years — after ten years on the job, and having every conceivable advantage in his pocket.
No other UK coach presided over such a decline, so don’t tell me that the Smith record is “very much in line with the historical record.” It is not.
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 27, 2008 1:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Agreed
I agree with you, Ken. It’s remarkable that people seriously suggest UK’s Administration and fans should have been satisfied with….
- a 6 game losing streak to Florida
- a 4 game losing streak to Vanderbilt
- unranked teams in 2005-06 and 2006-07, with 9-7 SEC records in both years
- watching former all state player Chris :Lofton achieve All American status at archrival Tennessee without ever having received a UK scholarship offer, or even the courtesy of a serious contact from Tubby’s staff
- watching Tennessee native Corey Brewer become MVP of the NCAA Tournament as a Florida Gator after never having received a UK scholarship offer from Tubby, despite the fact that Brewer has publicly said UK would have been his first choice
BTW, I have always maintained Tubby is a good tactical basketball coach. That’s not the issue. The issue is that player development was not satisfactory in the program, the style of play was narcoleptic, and the UK basketball program was becoming a second-tier SEC program. These conclusions are self-evident despite the fact that people can recount stats selectively to confuse the issue of the program’s diminished national stature.
by Messenger on Dec 27, 2008 1:55 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
These statements ...
… are only true from 2005 forward, of course. Prior to that, none of them were true.
Smith had two really bad years, primarily due to having insufficient developed talent in the program. It is hard to say why that is so, but it is arguably a combination of poor player behavior and a lack of communication between the coach and the players. I also blame a lot of it on a staff that I think lacked overall ability. Chris Lofton is not an issue and never ever has been. Only 20/20 hindsight can provide anything like an argument he should have been here considering the 2004 recruiting class. Corey Brewer was a judgment call, a bad one as it turns out, but every coach makes those from time to time.
We can blame Smith for inconsistent recruiting. We can question what happened with Randolph Morris and Joe Crawford, because clearly neither of those players reached their potential under Smith. In reality, though, Smith was a victim of circumstance, and his own hubris thinking that he could develop clearly inferior players. He was guilty of some failures here at Kentucky, but the program was only in a temporary decline. I am convinced, given his efforts subsequent to leaving and the development of his 2006 class that UK would have been back approximately where it is now had he stayed. But we will never know, and as far as I am concerned, it is irrelevant.
You are right about the fact that nobody should have been satisfied with the last two years, and hopefully, nobody was. But those years are behind us, and Smith is happily elsewhere — happily for him, and I think, happily for us. But we can’t rewrite history. Smith brought us some of the most enjoyable basketball we have seen at Kentucky in my view, as well as some of the worst.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 27, 2008 7:07 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wait a minute....
The point is PRECISELY that these statements ARE true from 2005 until Tubby resigned. I never suggested otherwise. How long do you expect UK to accept second-tier SEC basketball team and long losing streaks to SEC East Division basketball foes Florida and Vandy? Three years? Five years? How much is enough? Quite honestly, I think most rank-and-file UK fans had had enough by the time Tubby resigned.
And, truly, the postmortem is interesting but irrelevant. UK is clearly not a racist institution. Nobody will convince Joker Phillips and Steve Brown that UK is a racist institution.
by Messenger on Dec 27, 2008 11:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't ...
… accept the proposition that UK was ever anything other than temporarily down, which has happened at various times previous to Smith’s tenure. Your insistence that that UK was becoming a “second tier” SEC program does not ring true. Smith’s mistakes led to a down period. It is not the first time a coach has done that at UK.
I would agree with your comment that most rank-and-file fans had enough of Smith by the time he resigned. I was, quite frankly, one of them. I was happy to see him leave and even happier that it was an amiable parting.
I agree 100% that UK is not, and never has been, a racist institution. I can’t figure out why you keep telling me this as though I believed otherwise. Did you not read my commentary above?
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 28, 2008 12:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Again....
Accusations of racism permeate many recent media portrayals of UK in this context. They are probably the primary reason this discussion received enough attention for 200 replies. I did not intend to accuse you of promoting that point of view, and I regret you took it that way.
Secondly, it is less important whether you and I agree that UK’s basketball program was falling behind Florida, Vandy, and Tennessee on Tubby’s watch. It is far, far more important that thousands of rank-and-file UK fans understood this was in the process of happening. It is more important, still, that Mitch Barnhart and his senior staff understood this was happening. On that point, my source could not possibly be more authentic.
by Messenger on Dec 28, 2008 12:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Gotcha ...
on the racial thing, and agreed. Sorry I misread you.
I would agree with you that most UK fans probably drew that same conclusion. Whether that conclusion reflects reality is what I was attempting to address, and I don’t think that it actually does. I cannot speak to what Barnhart or those around him believed, as he has not been forthcoming on the issue. As I said, I remain skeptical of all “insider” information. No offense intended, it’s just that the lessons I have learned there have been hard-won and painful.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 28, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Morris And Crawford
Morris was 1st team All-SEC as junior, averaging 16 pts and 8 rebs.
Crawford was 3rd team All-SEC that year, averaging 14 pts.
Both were primed for excellent senior years. Each improved every year at UK.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:04 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Brewer
He had a poor workout in front of UK coaches. As a result, they wanted to see him again before offering.
He was 2004 HS class. UK signed the #1 class that year with its 4 available scholarships and “optioned” Adam Williams to prep school.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:02 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There were times ...
… when Smith arguably didn’t do a good job. My point in saying he did was my opinion that, on balance, the good outweighed the bad by a substantial margin. I do have difficulty seeing how anyone could rationally defend the alternative, and fortunately, few have tried.
Your point about columnists is also one I have made at length. In the end, I suppose, there is little to do but mock them. Trotting out the “racist” accusing finger and pointing it in any direction always generates outrage from the pointee, but I am done being outraged. I think the evidence is so far on our side in that debate that it amounts to little more than sour grapes or race baiting.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 9:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
OOPS! Here is where I wanted the compliment. Messenger this is great. Sorry Tru.
by Blueobsessed on Dec 25, 2008 1:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You got it right ...
… the first time. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 9:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Screw....
the rest of the country and what they “think” of us…..i could write several books of what I “THINK” of other schools and other coaches,,you think they give a rats behind of my opinion??? Neither do i theirs. Most are going to think or believe what that chose to believe despite what the truth is so why spend time trying to change or prove they are wrong? Its pointless. GO BIG BLUE
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Dec 26, 2008 10:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By the way ...
… I meant to link your original. Thanks for bringing that omission to my attention. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 7:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This story will not end for quite some time...
…and maybe never…
Every time Minnesota wins a big game or makes it farther in the tournament, someone is gonna want to rub it in Kentucky fans faces. There will always be haters and there will always be folks in the media that have their own agenda. Kentucky has always been a target for their success over all these years, much like Duke is. (oh God, I mentioned UK in the same breath as Duke! I hope Tru doesn’t kick me off the site)…
I notice Mr. Bradley did not attempt to link the Greg Doyle article… Oh wait, that’s something positive, never mind…
Just embrace the hate and laugh all the way down main street after we win our next title…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 8:40 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I love Kentucky fans
Because when somebody calls us out, we show up in droves. Just check out the feed to Bradley’s story. Sure, we argue with each other, but we don’t let outsiders question our program and get away with it.
You know what, I love A sea of blue too. Dang it, I love everybody. I think we all know our program is starting to turn the corner into becoming a real championship contender again. Sure, their will be bumps in the road, but I feel we are much closer now than we were Smith’s last two years. it takes awhile to reverse a train headed the wrong way, but it’s starting to happen.
Merry Christmas kids.
by daniel81 on Dec 24, 2008 9:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
Mark Bradley a Kentuckian?
Bradley may profess to be a Kentuckian but it is clear from reading his little piece that he knows so little about the Commonwealth that he probably considers bourbon a whisky. The horror.
Bradley and co. seem to believe the UK fans will only be happy if Tubby loses and Kentucky wins. Not true. It is my belief that Kentuckians wish no ill will upon Tubby, that they have little invested in the Minnesota program but to the degree that they do want him to win.
Lil’ Markie Bradley now joins other sportswriters known to Kentuckians not for insightful prose but a remarkable ignorance that borders on dereliction of duty.
As Bradley thinks that the UK program is “barely worthy of comment.” Well, I can think of one other thing that is “barely worthy of comment.”
Two months (!). Two weeks. Two pencils.
by Thomas Hunt Morgan on Dec 24, 2008 9:58 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
I couldn't agree more!
Good journalism is supposed to be unbiased; a concept Bradley doesn’t seem to grasp. He seems to think because he hails from our Big Blue state that he can freely generalize about the whole UK fanbase, even though he obviously is not a UK fan.
Tubby is a good coach and always has been. He did great things for UK, but after 10 years I think the pressure and the job were starting to wear thin on him. Sometimes people need change, and I think Minnesota was a good change for him. But the bottom line is you can’t compare Minnesota bball to UK bball…………EVER!
Most of these writers make it sound like we’re so impatient, and expect a Nat’l Championship every year. Come on, we’re not that unrealistic. We’ve had six coaches in the last 78 years…………..gosh, we’re so impatient. Our high expectations are based on years of tradition and excellence. What we do want is a team with a fire in their guts and chests swollen with pride because they play for Kentucky.
Saying BCG has turned UK into a program “barely worthy of comment” is one of the most ludicrous statements I’ve read in a while, and it actually made me laugh out loud. Opinions may be like assholes, but Brradley’s opinions seem to be what comes out of said asshole.
I will say this to Mr Bradley: “Don’t go on about how you’re from KY and then proceed to trash our program and fans with little pieces of fiction you call journalism. As far as I’m concerned you are not from KY and like Tru said, I just as soon you didn’t mention it ever again.”
by slidemank on Dec 24, 2008 11:00 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think I can
But the bottom line is you can’t compare Minnesota bball to UK bball…………EVER!
I decided to take you up on your offer and compare the two teams this year. One is undefeated and ranked nationally. The other has lost to VMI. One team just beat Louisville, a team that was in the top 10 nationally. The other team hasn’t beaten a top 10 opponent, or a ranked opponent at all for that matter.
Oooops, I guess the comparision of the 2008-09 season isn’t tilted in UK’s favor at this point.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 3:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LMAO
one year..? One year…?
And you get PAID to write..???
LMAO…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 3:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
If you have a different take on this year, I'd love to hear it.
That’s the problem with many UK fans. Many are stuck with their heads in the rear view mirror. The basketball landscape has changed. Looking at the present, I see no other valid comparison.
Wait, maybe there is one more comparison. One coach is full of class. The other orders his players to block FREE THROWS out of protest.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 3:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm sorry but there is just very little evidence
that Billy Gillispie is without class as you intimate. Indeed, there is a mountain load of evidence to suggest the man is generous including him breaking down at a fundraiser for pediatric cancer and paying the travel expenses so a daughter can attend her father’s funeral.
Also, if you are referring to the blocked FT in the UGA game, Gillispie did not order that blocked “out of protest.” He ordered it blocked, to get the ball back without anytime evaporating from the clock not knowing the action resulted in an automatic technical foul. You can accuse him of not knowing the rules, but to label him classless is disappointing..
Two months (!). Two weeks. Two pencils.
by Thomas Hunt Morgan on Dec 24, 2008 3:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Indeed.
Unfortunately, PJS has a bit of a thing for promoting Smith at Gillispie’s expense. We have had rather a lot of back and forth on that. He seems to have a lot of buy-in to what the Gillsipie and UK fan detractors have to say.
But I love it. To be hated is to be strong. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry, Tru.
The free throw thing and the recruiting games rub me the wrong way. And I usually stay quiet and just read UK fans blasting Smith ad nauseum. It’s not hate for you or UK generally. Know that. Just tiring of the venom still aimed at Tubby.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
C'mon, PJS. Let's be frank (or is it Frank?)
You want Gillispie to be a man of questionable character. I have seen this in your writing for a long time, and the fact that you rarely miss an opportunity to do so. There has been no Smith bashing in here that should have drawn your ire. You know I don’t allow that.
But I am untroubled. What you see through a mirror, darkly, many of us see up close and personal. And the two images are rather different.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 4:06 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The media filter presents him as a man of questionable character.
The links I provided below are two examples. ESPN wrote he “impishly tweaks the NCAA at every turn.”
And there is Smith bashing here, just not the angry type of Smith bashing that has existed elsewhere over the years. The Smith bashing here usually centers around recruiting. Has anyone here looked at his last two classes at MN? They are easily comparable to UKs.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Name 1 coach that doesn't tweak the system...
…I think it;s called, “staying ahead of the game”…
Mitch Barhart himself has stated numerous times that Billy G. always seeks approval for the UK compliance director before he acts…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The media ...
… bashes UK, Gillispie, Barnhart, and Rupp at every available opportunity. What’s new about this? Nothing. I have learned to have fun with it.
You and I clearly have different views of “Smith bashing.” Questioning Smith’s recruiting, based on his time at UK, is fair. I see nobody here questioning his recruiting at Minnesota. Part of it is due to the staff he had (he has a much better staff now than he did his last few years at UK), but it was Smith who put them there.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 4:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
UK Staff 2003 Through 2007
Tubby’s last UK staff was in place from July 2002 though March 2007.
They recruited the #1 class in 2004, Top 15 class in 2006, Top 20 class in 2003, #1 JuCo player in 2005, and were on the way to Top 10 class (Patterson, Lucas) in 2007.
They assisted Tubby to 131-40 (77%) record at UK. They assisted the first Undefeated Vs SEC Opponents team since 1956. They assisted the first #1 AP poll finish (2003) since 1978. They helped UK earn two #1 seeds and one #2 seed in NCAA tourney.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 5:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You give ...
Let’s examine that:
- 2002 — Below average class — only one UK starter in it.
- 2003 — No way Thomas, Orbzut, Perry and Allene were top 20, even if you count Sparks. I don’t care who says so.
- 2004 — Consensus #1
- 2005 — Rekalin Sims may have been the #1 ranked JuCo player, but he was an unqualified failure at Kentucky. The rest of that class consisted of Jared Carter and Adam Williams.
- 2006 — Very solid class. UK quality. Lacked a first-year impact player, but I wouldn’t complain about classes like that every year.
- 2007 — Patterson I will give you. Lucas, I don’t agree. I don’t care what you think you know. But Patterson alone would have made it a solid class.
My take is, in 20/20 hindsight, that only two recruiting classes out of the five that played for Smith was “UK caliber” — yes, I know that term means little, but indulge me.
We can argue about 2007, but that’s purely speculative at this point, and pretty much irrelevant. Smith, as much as anything, was a victim of bad timing. He surrounded good classes with weak ones, and had some tough luck in the tournament. Change either one, and I say he is still here.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 7:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2002 Class Not Recruited By That Staff
2003 class rated #18 by Rivals and #22 by Gibbons (for example).
2004 class. Best HS class since 1979. UK staff signed #1 group.
2005. Sims was highly rated. His second choice? Texas A & M, coach named Billy Gillispie. Tubby and staff snatched him away from TAMU that spring.
Carter was highly recruited. NCAA finalists UNC and Illinois offered him. So did ACC champion Boston College. And several other bigtime schools.
2006. Good class. Not every UK recruiting class has a first year impact player. I offer Joe Hall’s classes in 1972, 73, 75, 77, 81, and 85 as examples. None of them had one.
2007. Lucas even more so than Patterson. Florida didn’t even start recruiting him until March that year.
I’m quite certain that it’s much better for Tubby to be elsewhere. He’ll succeed at levels that will surprise many.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 8:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sims and carter? really?
you’re really going to stay with this, i guess…not many would still argue the merits of recruiting sims and carter at this point. who cares if they were highly rated or highly recruited? all that matters is how they did…i’d say, along with most others, they haven’t produced very much.
as for the ‘04 class, they may have been #1 when they came in, but not so much when they left. and i think what they did at UK matters much more than what they beforethey got here. and i’m a HUGE fan of crawford, bradley, and rondo.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 26, 2008 11:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2004 Class
Had 3 career 1000+ point scorers. Name another (recent) class that could make the same claim.
Gillispie LOVED Rekalin Sims as 2005 recruit and was (angry) that UK swooped in and signed him.
Carter was a gamble but a 7-foot gamble sought by many Div I schools like those i mentioned.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:12 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
thank you for repeating yourself yet again
did nothing to counter my points.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 29, 2008 2:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
2 In NBA, Another 1 Close To Getting There
Each had good UK careers. Rondo 2 years, Morrsi 3 years, Crawford and Bradley 4 years.
EVEN BETTER when they left than we they came in.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 3:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
now you're just ignoring my points
although i am glad to see you stop defending sims and carter.
also not sure why you’re telling me how long they played at UK…i know that, and not sure how it’s relevant.
but you’re right, those four guys had good individual careers, not so much team success (and that’s UK level sucess).
and the fact they they’re better now than before has nothing to do with my point. i was talking strictly their UK careers.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 29, 2008 3:25 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Why???
Is Lucas ALWAYS mentioned in the same breath as Patterson as a part of the 07 UK class? Did i miss something? Did he decommit AFTER tubby left? I dont get it? His name should never come up in the same breath as 07 UK class.
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Dec 26, 2008 11:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
His Father Told Me He Was UK Bound If Tubby Stayed
He knows my stepdaughter from her WNBA career and played against her Dad in their NBA days.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
then why did he not go to Minnesota with Tubby?
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 29, 2008 2:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
At The Time, Minnesota Had 0 Scholarships Open
The 2007 Gopher roster was full at 13 but 2 left the team over the summer.
He WAS UK bound, no doubt about it. Ask John (his Dad) the next time you see him.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Billy Clyde
Good for Billy G. concerning his fundraising work. He should be applauded.
But the perception of Billy G. is that he’s a slippery sort. Tubby has earned a reputation over the years as a class act. Billy G. has earned the opposite. It may or may not be deserved, but here’s just one example. The NCAA had to enact emergency legislation because of BG. There is also a long ESPN article I’ll try to find that frames Gillispie as a guy willing to find whatever hole in the rules to gain an advantage.
Some might like that, but I think it leads to the negative perception many outside of UK have of BG.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 3:59 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Who's perception?
Not mine. And I consider myself very fair when it comes to the sort of thing you are talking about.
The biggest problem, PJS, is that you really do want Gillispie to be a bad guy. That’s why finding fault with him is so easy for you. But trying to drag Gillispie down will not make UK fans regret Smith’s departure. We’re just an unforgiving bunch that way. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 4:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
This perception.
I don’t report on UK baskeball. I don’t create the way BG is viewed. This type of coverage does:
Kentucky coach Billy Gillispie, who impishly tweaks the NCAA at every turn, came under fire not once, not twice but three times in the past six months. First he lured a verbal commitment from an eighth grader, prompting the National Association of Basketball Coaches to recommend coaches refrain from making scholarship offers until after a recruit’s sophomore year of high school.
Then he moved Midnight Madness up one week, prompting emergency legislation from the NCAA Board of Directors to cement the Midnight Madness date.
And the day after that early madness he got a commitment from Daniel Orton, a top-10 player. Orton played for his father, Larry, on the Athletes First travel team. According to the Louisville Courier-Journal, Larry Orton pocketed $4,800 from Kentucky for 16 speaking engagements at Wildcats summer camps. Terrence Crawford, Daniel’s stepbrother, was paid $1,950 for nine talks he gave to Kentucky campers. It was all perfectly legal since coaches are allowed to be paid for speaking engagements, even if they also happen to be related to a recruit.
As a guy who loves—heck spends time away from loved ones to blog—about college hoops, I cringe when the game even has the perception of shadiness surrounding it. I understand all of the things listed above are above board and legal. But some coaches go further to find holes in the rules. Like it or not, articles like the one linked above lead to a negative perception of BG.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:07 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You do realize ...
… that Smith was complicit in a similar situation to Orton with respect to Jamaal Magloire? His coach, Simeon Mars? No?
Need to study a bit of Big Blue history, my friend.
As far as Gillispie’s determination to do everything within the rules to gain an advantage, I can only say that I find all but the paying of players’ parents to be completely fine. The whining from the NABC was purely self-serving. I have already disposed of the NABC complaints at length. I think quite convincingly, too.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 4:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Let's post both sides here...
Same source as you..a few paragraphs down.
“Larry Orton insists that Kentucky did nothing to sway his son’s decision. He also was paid to speak at camps at Oklahoma State and Kansas (attempts by ESPN.com to access records were denied since the camps are run privately and not funded by the universities) and Daniel attended elite camps at Oklahoma, Oklahoma State, Baylor and Connecticut.”
Are you still on the michael avery train? You say Uk fans can’t get over tubby smith, when in fact it seems you’re the one who can’t get over UK. I don’t see you even mentioning Billy Donovan or Mark Turgeon about their commits from young, 15 year old players. I have no met one UK fan AND I GO THERE that dispises Tubby Smith and want him to fail. rather, they hope he does well and know he will succeed there
by BleedinUKBlue on Dec 24, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Tim Floyd (USC)...
…has been recruiting 15 yr olds for years… I would be willing to bet that he recruited young at Iowa State as well, although I have no proof…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think you're right.
The majority of UK fans want Tubby to succeed at this point. I agree. Good for them. That is one thing, but it’s another to have “moved on.” And it’s too early for even many of the ASOB readers to have “moved on.” In many threads on this site there are critical references to Tubby’s recruiting at UK. Like clockwork, FortyYearCatFan responds.
Daniel81 wrote this above:
Tubby needs to learn the lesson Of how to recruit players who actually belong on a basketball court at the Div. 1 level. He was pushed out because of the product on the court and where the program was heading.
That’s not fair. It’s not accurate. It’s a cheap shot based on a blog-driven peception that Tubby couldn’t recruit. I’m sure 40 will back me up :-)
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:30 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
it isn't that Tubby coudn't recruit...
…It’s that he lost the desire to recruit top flight pampered prospects in his last few years at UK…
I think Carruth & Parker put a sore taste in Tubby’s mouth, which is very understandable…
But, PJS, you must realize that the players considered top flight at Minnesota, and top flight players at Kentucky, are totally different…
20 wins at Minnesota= GREAT
20 wins at UK= Change of coach
Just my opinion of course…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Look at Tubby's two classes at MN
… then compare them to UK standards. What’s the difference? Tubby’s 2009 class is top 10 nationally.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:41 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ok, but...
…you’re looking purely at media perception… Lets see how it all plays out in 2-3 years… The ranking of players is one thing, the attitude and ability to coach those players in a team setting is something else…
Billy found that out last year with Liggins…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
sorry, meant Legoin...
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, and that's kind of my point.
Tubby had a number of top-flight recruits by media standards at UK. Some of them panned out, some didn’t. Maybe that can be blamed on coaching. Maybe it’s just that recruiting isn’t an exact science.
Minnesota’s PG that Pitino jokingly said should transfer, was a generic 3-star recruit. He could be the Big Ten’s best PG this year.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
don't you find it a bit curious...
…that Tubby took none of his assistant coaches with him to Minnesota..?
none, not one, zero, zilch…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No
He wanted a coach with Minnesota ties. Vince Taylor.
He wanted his son on his staff. Saul Smith.
He wanted an associate coach with Div I experience. Ron Jirsa.
All make perfect sense to me.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 12:35 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
westbrook?
the guy who played well against absolutly terrible competion then showed up for a solid 2 points, free throws I might add, against an over ranked and over hyped (what else is new) UofL team? He is thus far their only competetion and he couldn’t deliver against those that are of simlar skill range. don’t go down this road
by BleedinUKBlue on Dec 24, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No, Al NOlen.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
ah
i did like him. he showed some poise. Good to see someone beat uofl. Hate those guys
by BleedinUKBlue on Dec 24, 2008 5:00 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dear God!
Tubby Smith is fully capable of bringing in great recruiting classes. As has been cited COUNTLESS times, he had the #1 ranked recruiting class in 2004. Before that he had a number of top 10 recruiting classes…irregardless, I tend to not care so much about how the recruiting classes are ranked so much as I care about how the players end up producing at UK by the end of their career.
The reason why people criticized Tubby’s recruiting so much was because it was sub-par to bad for 3 out of his last 6 recruiting classes at UK (regardless of what the classes were ranked. I don’t care how a class is ranked coming in, just how their “ranked” after they leave). That’s why Tubby’s last two years at UK were sub-par, by UK standards. Having one sub-par recruiting class is something that can be weathered, but having 2 or 3…well, that’ll drop a program down a peg or two, no matter how much tradition it has.
Even the most fervent Tubby supporters such as Dick Vitale would point out the vast talent gap between UK and other top programs over those last two years. They’d talk about the greatness of Tubby out of one side of their mouths, and then turn around and criticize the team for not looking like what a Kentucky basketball team should look like, in both talent and on-court energy. After tubby left, it was funny how UK haters would both make fun of us for running off Tubby despite the “great” job he was doing and then in the next breath make fun of the program for no longer being amongst the elite (Michael Wilbon, whom I love, did this repeatedly).
No elite program can have the following recruiting classes over the course of 6 years and expect to maintain “elite” status:
2001: Rashaad Caruth (kicked off team), Josh Carrier, Adam Chiles, Chuck Hayes
2002: Brandon Stockton, Bernard Cote, Antwain Barbour (juco transfer), Ravi Moss (walk-on, eventual scholarship), Kelenna Azubuike
2003: Shagari Alleyne, Lukasz Obrzut, Bobby Perry, Sheray Thomas (This class really hurt)
2004: Rondo, Crawford, Morris, Bradley, Sparks (transfer), Adam Williams (This class was obviously great)
2005: Jared Carter, Rekalin Sims (transfer)
2006: Harris (mid-season), Porter, Jasper, Meeks, Stevenson (very good class, so far)
The 2001 class, with the VERY notable exception of Chuck Hayes, OVERALL a disappointment. Neither Adam Chiles nor Josh Carrier nor Carruth had any real impact at UK (unless you count the cancerous impact Carruth had in his short stint). 1/4 had a MAJOR impact, and 3/4 had NO impact. That’s a disappointment to me.
The 2002 class had 2 impact players: Azubuike & Moss, while Stockton, Cote, and Barbour (despite being highly ranked) had very slight impacts. So, 2/5 of the class was impactful, which is also a disappointment in my opinion. Neither Stockton nor Cote were good enough to play at UK, in my opinion, and Barbour never lived up to his hype. Not sure if I can call this class disappointing, but even with Azubuike I think overall it was sub-par by UK standards.
The 2003 class was, well, bad. I hate to rag on Bobby Perry and Sheray Thomas, as they were great kids with great attitudes, but even as seniors I don’t think that Thomas would see the floor if he was on this current UK squad and Perry would only be coming off the bench for 10 minutes or less. Alleyne and Obrzut had their moments (Obrzut more than Alleyne), but honestly I don’t think either of them were talented enough to play at UK. Both Perry and Thomas were impact players by their junior and senior years, but due to necessity because of a lack of talented big men (other than Morris) for tubby’s last two years. This class was adisappointment and sub-par for UK.
All of the 2004 guys were impact players, except for Williams. Great class, but largely due to the poor recruiting classes that surrounded them, their results were less than great (on paper at least…I have a great fondness for Ramel and Joe, especially after last year, even if the record was one of the worst in recent UK history).
The 2005 class was small, and if you only have two scholarships to give at UK, you’d better make them count. Rekalin Sims had virtually no impact, and so far neither has Jared Carter (Although I’m rooting for the big guy!). As of now, I’d say this class was a disappointment and completely lacked any impactful players.
The 2006 class so far has been excellent. This was a good class…but it was too little, too late.
Tubby Smith and his staff, for whatever reason, were OVERALL very sub-par recruiters during the second half of his coaching career at UK. There have been many reasons given by many different people of differing levels of access for WHY the recruiting was sub-par (bad assistants, interference from other people within the program, unwillingness to play ball within the AAU system, unwillingness to bend rules or be ruthless against other programs, and so on). I don’t really care anymore, to be honest, nor do I care to know why Tubby has allegedly recruited better at Minnesota so far. I say allegedly because I judge classes not on how Rivals or Scout ranks them coming in, but how much of a positive impact the classes have during their time at the school. I’m not really much of a numbers guy, anyways. Tubby was not a consistently good enough recruiter at Kentucky, and the program suffered for it. Even if he signs the #1 recruiting class 5 years in a row at Minnesota, it doesn’t change what happened at UK.
I say all of this (which has turned out WAY longer than I ever thought it would be) as someone who really REALLY liked Tubby Smith. I supported him vehemently up until his final season, when I had to finally admit that what I was seeing on the court was no longer Kentucky basketball, and I could see no light at the end of the tunnel. I didn’t think he should be fired at the time, but I was certain that we would not be national championship contenders his next year or the year after, and if it had gone how I suspected it would go, then I probably would have wanted him fired by the end of this season (and maybe by the end of last year’s season).
I’m happy he chose to leave, both because it was obvious that the job was taking a toll on him and because in turn he was taking a toll on the program (the player’s lethargic play seemed to mirror tubby’s stressed and exhausted dimeanor on the sidelines and in the media). Tubby is a great coach and Minnesota will be very good with him at the helm.
And I’m spent. This is the first and last time I’ll post on Tubby Smith at ASOB…I think. I wish Tubby the best at Minnesota. I thank him for many great years at UK, but regardless of how well he does at Minnesota, I am glad he is no longer the coach of the University of Kentucky.
I wrote this late (on christmas eve no less), so I apologize for the poor sentence structure and layout.
Forty, you can respond with a bunch of stats if you wish, but I’ll just ignore them (-:
by BBallSophist on Dec 25, 2008 3:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
It may have been long ...
… but it was worth it. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 25, 2008 6:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1996 And 1997 UK Recruits
Both classes NR in Top 25. Just like 1991 and 1993 classes at UK – NR in Top 25.
That’s 4 of 8 classes NR in Top 25 at UK between 1990 and 1997.
4 / 8 = 50%
3 / 6 = 50%
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 12:33 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, but ...
Timing and the post-season had a lot to do with it. And Pitino seemed to do more with less, the perfect example being the Unforgettables and the classes surrounding them. Not only that, Pitino managed to get into the final eight and final four much more often than Smith. It really doesn’t matter what your recruiting classes look like if you do that.
Smith’s biggest problem was that he not just followed Pitino, but two of Pitino’s best seasons. Gillispie got a big break in that he followed two of Smith’s worst years.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 9:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I went through pains...
…to point out that I could care less about how the classes were ranked.
by BBallSophist on Dec 26, 2008 11:01 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Your point was obvious and well put. I enjoyed reading it.
Some fans are primarily rational, others are primarily emotional, and the former will never convince the latter that he is mistaken.
As the Good Book says, “There are none so blind as him who will not see.”
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 27, 2008 1:38 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
8 Of Tubby's UK Recruits Are 1000 Point Club
That’s 8 of the Top 50 scorers in UK history EVER were signed by Tubby Smith.
Several All-Americans. Numerous All-SEC players. 8 NBA players (and another drafted).
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1 or 2 Scholarships To Give
1981 Mike Ballenger, Troy McKinley. Neither had much impact, Ballenger transferred.
1985 Irving Thomas. Not much impact, transferred.
1989 Jeff Brassow, Henry Thomas. Brassow hampered by injury, Thomas even more so.
1996 Jamaal Magloire, Heshimu Evans. Both had impact at UK. But not In Kind replacement for Delk, Walker, Pope, McCarty leaving UK that year.
2005 Rekalin Sims, Jared Carter. Sims transferred. Carter hampered by injuries. Billy Gillispie really liked Sims and almost signed him at TAMU. I’d think BCG agreed with OTS on Sims.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 9:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I don't see your point
tubby wasn’t delivering. you can watch his tenure at UK. we went from national championship with pitino’s players to a steady and consistent downward spiral with tubby. UK moved on. The program moved on. Even ESPN, of all people, moved on. You appear to be trying to stir up emotions to catch someone saying something bad. Bend it enough and it will break.
by BleedinUKBlue on Dec 24, 2008 4:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My first comment here today way below ....
… was that UK hasn’t “moved on.” Yes, most UK fans wish Tubby well. That doesn’t mean they’ve moved on. Some of my opinions on the ethics of recruiting go way back to the late 90s. Remember the 1997 Final Four? Minnesota was there. Well, not technically anymore because of a disastrous academic fraud scandal. We like to forget about that in Minnesota, but that doesn’t mean what happened doesn’t shade our opinions of quality coaching today. Tubby couldn’t get away with in MN what BG has done—even if legal—at UK.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
then if you agree that...
…most UK fans have moved own, why are you not moving on..?
Not being mean, just asking…
I wish i never, ever had to reply on this issue again, but I will always defend my coach, as I defended Tubby when he was here…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Everything Tubby does ...
… or every success MN has is tied to UK. I don’t like it, but it’s just the way it is.
Blueobsessed wrote above, and I’m paraphrasing here, that successes Tubby has at MN withh be a detriment to UK’s reputation.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He did say that.
And he was incorrect.
The reality is, with every milestone Smith achieves at Minnesota, the media will want to say, “In your eye, UK fans.” Now, that isn’t our fault. But you seem to think that it is. Sure, we are going to respond — who wouldn’t? Myself, I am going to mock them and “embrace the hate,” but don’t you see that, to extent that some UK fans haven’t moved on, it’s primarily because of articles just like the one that began this conversation.
Do you think if by dint of some miracle UK gets to the Final Four this year that the media will write, “Well, I guess the UK fans were right to drive Smith off,” or “Looks like UK traded up,” or something similar? Don’t hold your breath. What you will see is something closer to, “We know he was cheating, just look — he offered 15-year olds scholarships and moved Big Blue Madness.”
The media won’t let UK fans move on. But we’re moving on anyway.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 5:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Even if legal
and what has BG down that is illegal?The problem appears to be “yours” more than “ours” .Now you are just making excuses for Tubby,who at this time does not need any.BG is ahead of the curve,and that’s EXACTLY what this UK fan is enjoying.BTW,Merry Christmas.
by -Zoso- on Dec 25, 2008 10:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Does PJS base his/her opinion
on what ESPN says? He/She doesn’t look into things for themselves? They only believe what others write? Well hell, I saw Tubby smoking reefer with my drummer just about a month ago. We were on tour up there and Tubby said he was a big fan and wanted to hang out with us. We lit some doobs up and he was chiefing like Geronimo. Our drummer was showing him some rolls and paradiddles while they shared a spliff. I still think he’s a really cool guy and a real class act, I don’t know how that story about him affects you but I really think he’s a great guy!!! Just because someone smokes a little Mary Jane don’t make them bad. Especially someone of Tubby’s caliber. You ever wondered where he got that bug eyed stare from? Hell yeah, it was the smoke!! You should have seen it when he was choking on a bong hit!! Boy did his eyes bulge!!! He was a lot of fun to hang around! Donna didn’t approve but hey, Tubby makes the money and didn’t flirt with any of the groupies. VERY RESPECTFUL!!!
I think PJS has a column to write now.
by bluecrip on Dec 27, 2008 1:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
LOL
That is ridiculously funny! This thread needed some humor!
But you got your point across to PJS.
by kykat51 on Dec 27, 2008 1:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I sure hope so. Damn instigators.
That’s all the media does is instigate our reactions. They know that if something negative is printed, broadcasted or even TTY’d about our Wildcats they will get a rise from a large portion of the fanbase. Because the fanbase is so large even a huge number of idiots posting looks as if the entire fanbase is in unison with their stupid comments. Freakin sad.
by bluecrip on Dec 27, 2008 10:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You have a better record at this point in the season...
end of your argument…
SOS
UK—124
UM—199
You’ve played (3) Quality teams (Louisville, Virginia, Col. St.), 1 of which was ranked (Louisville)
Uk has played (4) Quality teams (UNC, West Vir, Kan. ST., Miami). 2 of which were ranked…
OOC is as weak as ours, if not weaker…
The only think you have going for you is a love affair with the media…
Yea, you’re undefeated at this time and ranked in the top 25.. enjoy it, don’t rub it in our faces just because we are off to a slower start..
Why don’t you follow your coaches lead and show some class..
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Hey.
A little respect here, please. We welcome everyone here. Let’s not get personal.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 3:55 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I wasn't getting personal Tru...
…He stated that our coach had little class, so I ask him to show some…
is that wrong..?
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 3:57 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
I understand. Still, PJS is a really good guy, just a little Tubby-struck. We can forgive him that, I think. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 3:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
fair enough...
…but, this is after all a “Kentucky Athletics” fan base site..
I would think that one would be prepared for a strong backlash when they post that our coach has “class issues”…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Strong, yes.
Just not personal. Very important to stick to the facts and be nice.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
well said...
…I’m just one of those true blue, die hard fans that take EVERYTHING said about my head coach personal…
my bad,, lol
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No problem.
I do understand. We just try to set the highest possible standard around here, and I think we do a damn good job — you included.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 4:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
By that standard ...
… you are dead right. I make the argument that Minnesota is not the superior team based on years of observing college basketball. But that doesn’t make me right.
In the end, we will not know for a while how good Kentucky is. We’ll just have to wait and see how it goes. But keep in mind, UK has faced the #1 team in the nation, and a top 25 ranked team. The loss to VMI was a lesson in senior leadership and a coaching failure.
Minnesota has an SOS ranked at only 189, vs 90 for UK. If you compare the teams side by side, as right here, you will see that Minnesota has a superior record, but is superior in almost nothing else. Ken Pomeroy currently ranks UK at #26 and UM at #50.
So while you might have some crowin’ coming off your win against Louisville, the reality is that your team seems destined to lose, and likely lose far more often than Kentucky from here on out. The Big Ten this year is not a very friendly place to an up-and-coming team compared to recent years. The SEC, on the other hand, looks rather less challenging this year than in the recent past.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 3:37 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Looking at your numbers ...
A couple things stand out. MInnesota’s assist to turnover ratio is much better than UKs. The Gophers are averaging about two more steals per game. Minnesota’s strength of schedule is abysmal, no question about that. And the Big Ten looks very good. But this year was supposed to build for next year when Royce White, Rodney Williams and Trevor Mbakwe join a team that has every impact player back. A 10-8 conference record and an NCAA bid this year is ahead of schedule.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 3:46 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
You're counting your chickens man....
…that’s very dangerous…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 3:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
What I'm saying is this year's MN team is ahead of schedule.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 3:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
at this point int the season...
…. I would agree…
But you stated, and I quote…
A 10-8 conference record and an NCAA bid this year is ahead of schedule.
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 3:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I should have added a qualifer.
- would be ahead of schedule.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 4:10 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Please return
when March rolls around and we shall see just how far “ahead” you actually are.
by -Zoso- on Dec 24, 2008 5:14 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Heh.
Almost every team in the country has a better assist/turnover ratio than Kentucky. In case you hadn’t noticed, that has been the story on UK all year.
But I ask you — how many teams can win a two-game tournament against two of Pomeroy’s current top 20 teams with 56 turnovers between them? I’m saying one. :-)
As far as UM being ahead of schedule, no doubt that’s true, at least for the moment.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 3:53 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I Usually Agree With PJS But Not Here
Minnesota could / should have earned an NCAA bid with 2 or 3 more W last winter.
Tubby had his 14 year NCAA streak snapped as a result. His On Schedule was NCAA bid, NCAA W’s in 2nd year, and so on.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 9:03 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Welcome back Forty
I knew there was some reason you could not be here Christmas Eve day…you were in flight. Have fun in all that snow in Utah. I cannot remember that much snow in Ky since the winter of 77-78 when we had the blizzard. Never saw the ground until March.
by kykat51 on Dec 27, 2008 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Louisville Is A Superio Team To Minnesota
But the Gophers won the game anyway. The superior team doesn’t always W the game.
The Gophers face a MUCH tougher conference schedule (18 Big 10 games) than UK (16 SEC games). The Big 10 is much improved this year. The SEC is down a bit from last year.
End of the season, Gophers may have the tougher SOS as a result.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 12:18 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I think that's true.
The Big Ten, I think, is better than the SEC this year, top to bottom. I believe that UM will wind up with an SOS close to UK, maybe stronger, but we’ll have to see. UM didn’t play as many tough NC games as we did.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 9:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
you can't comapre programs based on one year
I wouldn’t say UK has a football team that compares to Michigan just because we have more wins then them this year. It’s a dumb comparison when looking at the programs historically.
GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!
by UKWildCatFanatic on Dec 24, 2008 6:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Not worthy of comment for a year?
So that means the last time he commented was probably after our wretched december last season.
I guess the 12-4 SEC record, Co-Coach of the year, Patterson freshman all SEC, The tornado in his new hometown, Crawford’s wonderful last game?tt
None of these he considers, “worthy of comment”?
He must be quite a journalist.
UK has the greatest fans in the world!
by GoCats on Dec 24, 2008 11:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
You can't pay any attention to Bradley
He was fired from the Cats Pause … his bitterness is obvious and has been for some time.
by Ken Howlett on Dec 24, 2008 12:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Had no idea
Didn’t know Bradley was fired from the Cats Pause. Certainly helps to put things in context.
I wish we could all be so lucky to get fired from a fan newspaper and land at the paper of record in the 9th largest city in the United States.
Two months (!). Two weeks. Two pencils.
by Thomas Hunt Morgan on Dec 24, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He wasn't just working for TCP, but the gist of your comment is still valid ...
… I compare it to former CJ writer Jerry Brewer, only Brewer is probably an inferieor writer to Bradley, but both have just as many inane “views” as any writer I know of who is paid to provide opinion and analysis.
Brewer left the CJ, I swear I thought he was fired, but he evidently moved of his own accord to the Seattle paper. I could not believe a professional sports town paper would hire him, he was terrible.
by Ken Howlett on Dec 25, 2008 9:22 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I didn't think that Brewer ...
… was a good writer, either. I don’t miss him at all.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 25, 2008 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
First of all Mr. Bradley,
Pitino has publicly stated, that the greatest place to ever coach was at the University of Kentucky. He truly regrets leaving the greatest coaching position in all of sports. I also remember my mother telling me when I was little, that jealousy is the root of all evil. It’s not the University of Kentucky fans that got you fired from The Cats Pause, but rather your ignorance and lack of a strong work ethic. But by living in the greatest country ever, even second rate journalists are given another chance. Although it is in a state that posesses (for the most part) mediocrity when it comes to sports. Except for the Georgia football program, the state of Georgia isn’t used to winning national titles. Even the Braves couldn’t bring the title home 7 times. So you should fit in nicely where there is no pressure, because you can’t handle pressure Mr. Bradley. I’m only 36, but I feel like I’ve been a part of UK basketball for over 100 years. I was like most UK fans, born into the madness. I grew up hearing about Rupp, Issel, Givens, Cotton Nash, and the list goes on. I remember my parents sending me to bed and making me turn my tv off on a school night, when the CATS were still playing. That didn’t stop me of putting a towel at the bottom of my door (to block out the light from the tv), and turning down the volume on the tv, while I listened to Cawood on my walkman. If you’re truly a Kentucky basketball fan, then you are so passionate that it is viewed as an illness or sickness by others. My wife is from Barboursville, WV and grew up a Marshall University fan. Don’t get me wrong, I love the Herd as well, but she just doesn’t understand my passion for the Big Blue. When a Kentucky game comes on, I have to have my game shirt on, my beer in my UK mug, and no other conversations will be tolerated except for the yelling at the TV screen. Go Big Blue! Damn, I wished they played everyday all year long…..
gobigbluecatsfan72
by gobigbluecatsfan72 on Dec 24, 2008 12:38 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Pitino
He was a lot better coach in the 1990’s than he is in the 2K’s regardless where he is coaching.
He has alos ublicly stated that he likes Louisville better than any other coaching spot he ever had.
I doubt the UK level of mid 1990’s would have continued year-after-year under him. We’ll never know.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He's been ...
… inconsistent about where he preferred to coach. He has also said he wishes he never left Kentucky. It really doesn’t matter anymore, though.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 9:45 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino
I NEVER listen to ANYTHING he has to say anymore..even the goofy tv ads hes on sometimes get muted at my house.
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Dec 26, 2008 11:58 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Well
I did watch his press conference today at the CJ. He is not a happy camper. That may have been the only time I saw him looking down all the time instead of at the cams. He is very unsatisfied with his players progress…even the veterans.
by kykat51 on Dec 27, 2008 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Pitino took advantage of the rules changes
Pitino is visionary. He took advantage of the rules changes — 35 second clock and 3 point shot — more quickly than any other coach. By the time Pitino left Kentucky other coaches were adapting. His advantages were neutralized.
In the history of college basketball, Rick Pitino will be right up there with Iba, Rupp, Wooden because he was an innovator. He was the first coach to figure out how to win under the new rules while all the old coaches are still playing under the old rules.
But that was 20 years ago. Today, all the coaches have been playing under the same rules for a long time. There is no new strategy that is going to surprise and prevail. Winning is about recruiting good player athletes who will do what you tell them.
Rick is having the same problems a lot of other coaches have. The kids won’t do what I tell them. If the NCAA changes the rules significantly, I can assure you Pitino will be one of the first to exploit the situation.
by Fortunatus on Dec 26, 2008 11:13 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Wasn't it originally a 45 second clock?
I thought the 35 second clock came in sometime in the early/mid 90’s.
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
by chirop1 on Dec 27, 2008 9:42 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
The Only Place Pitino Belongs With Rupp Or Wooden
Is in a public Men’s bathroom waiting in line.
He’s a flash in the pan. His primary success (greatness) was due to great recruiting by Billy Donovan and down cycles for both Duke and UNC in mid to late 1990’s.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
My God..!
Tubby is at Minnesota (and happy)
Gillispie is at UK (and happy)
Is seems like all parties involved have moved on, but the fans & media…!
good lord…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
by vinceuk1 on Dec 24, 2008 2:01 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
UK fans have not moved on
Tru, I think you’re a tremendous blogger and you give UK fans a great name, but in this one isntance I think you’re off a bit.
UK fans have not moved on. The Kentucky sports media has not moved on. The UK blogosphere has not moved on. As part of my effort to bring Minnesota Gophers fans information about our team I have Google Alerts and feeds set up to capture just about anything that is said about Tubby Smith. A good percentage of that comes from UK outposts. Sometimes it’s positive and sometimes it’s negative. And that’s all well and good. But I think it’s a stretch to say UK fans have moved on.
It’s kind of like the Aaron Rodgers-Brett Favre situation in Green Bay. That’s an obsessed fan base. And they will forever compare Rodgers to Favre. If Tubby continues to have success at Minnesota, the interest from the blue commonwealth won’t cease.
Tru, I believe you’ve moved on as have many others. But many others have not. Many UK fans root for Tubby to fail to say “I told you so.” I get some of the emails and comments at The Daily Gopher.
And for those that are criticizing Tubby in this thread on recruiting, …. have you looked at the rankings the last two years? His 2008 class with Ralph Sampson III and others was top 20. His 2009 class that includes two top-30 players is #9 nationallu last I looked. Give it up, his recruiting isn’t just good for Minnesota, it’s good for anywhere.
Finally, I’m not sure exactly how the jury isn’t out on Billy G. Ken Howlett penned a nice piece the other day raising some questions. And you just lost to VMI. I’d have questions about that.
Maroon and Gold Headquarters: The Daily Gopher
by PJS on Dec 24, 2008 3:05 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Thanks, for the compliment, PJS.
I will say that there are undoubtedly some fans that root against Smith. But if you noticed the poll I had up on the game, it ran 3-1 Smith over Pitino. Certainly not dispositive, but mine is one of the most read blogs on SBN and the Big Blue Blogosphere.
So I ask you, where is your evidence? :-)
With respect to the jury being out on Gillispie, I believe I said that in my piece, so there is no need to address that again. As to VMI, they are 9-2 and have beaten the normally excellent Winthrop, and gave Virginia a good game. That loss still looks bad, but not as bad as some might think.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 3:48 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
um ralph sampson?
Who was recruiting him? Don’t say Kentucky…I don’t know if you noticed but the minute tubby left, UK stopped his recruitment almost entirely. The others were maryland…a litlte bit of clemson…and minnesota. The fact is, when tubby was coaching in his final years, top players hardly ever consdiered UK and we got pretty much no one. Meeks is the only player left from the smith era that can play at this level. That is undeniable
by BleedinUKBlue on Dec 24, 2008 4:49 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
No it isn't.
I deny it. Certainly Stevenson can. Meeks, of course. Jasper could have, had he not been injured and transfered.
Let’s not go too far here.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 5:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sampson III
He was offered by UK and visited Midnight Madness 2007 but the offer was withdrawn when he didn’t commit.
His final choices included Maryland and Ga Tech (among other ACC and SEC schools interested).
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 25, 2008 11:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
PJS
This is from a UK fan that lives in Campbellsville, Ky. where Clem Haskins was born and reared and played at Taylor County High School many years ago for Coach Billy B. Smith.
Clem has retired back to his homeplace and you know what? All the people that knew him growing up respect him tremendously as the person he was years ago and still is to this day.
I don’t know the particulars of that academic cheating scandal UM encountered, I just know that Clem never pursued a counter attack against the NCAA because in his mind he thought it a waste of his precious moments in life.
by kykat51 on Dec 25, 2008 11:47 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Dana O'Neill of ESPN
Did an excellent article on him back in the summer I think. What she said was right on about Clem.
by kykat51 on Dec 25, 2008 11:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Here is the link
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/columns/story?id=3510729
People move on is the moral of the story.
by kykat51 on Dec 26, 2008 12:02 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Clem
I ran into him at a McDonalds one night in Hodgenville and i went over to speak to him, he was very, very nice. We talked about WKU,UM and about family and kids, pretty cool!
" I believe in pipedreams"
by Magnoliacat on Dec 27, 2008 12:25 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Doesn't VMI avergae
over 100 pts a game?
I guess we are not bringing up San Diego from last year. OMG! they turned out to not be half bad. They defeated UConn lastyear in the tournament, but there wasn’t a word about them then. VMI will be the same this year.
by BleedinUKBlue on Dec 24, 2008 4:06 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Who knows?
Who cares? We should have done better. I’m not trying to make excuses for losing those games, but we can’t just hang our heads in shame without examining some of the context, and the reality. Just as you point out.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 4:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
agreed.
i just don’t udnerstand what PJ is trying to say about us “moving on”. If people like him and that idiot bradley would stop trying to rub everyting tubby does in our face, there would be nothing. no drama, no nothing.
by BleedinUKBlue on Dec 24, 2008 4:45 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Well ...
… that was a point I made above. The biggest reason we are having these discussions even now is because the media are trying their best not to let UK move on. What provoked this discussion? Media article.
I rest my case, Your Honor. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 24, 2008 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Sorry I got into this late,
I was having an early Christmas with my grandkids, but it seems to me that our antagonist is coloring all of us with the “hasn’t moved on” brush based on what his google alerts have given him. Let’s say he’s seen 100 purported UK fans bashing Tubby. The question is: what percentage is that of the total Wildcat fan base? And, besides, only PJS controls the definition of “moved on.” In his mind, we ALL haven’t because of what SOME say. By that same logic, none of the UK fans could have been said to support Tubby when he was here because some Kentuckians, my late step-father included, hated him because he was black. Is PJS dragging us over the coals of the alleged Rupp racism again?
Final analogy, are all Minnesota coaches academic cheats? Probably not, but I could “Clem Haskins” them to death using PJS’ logic.
by oldcat'69 on Dec 24, 2008 9:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
By the way, I was, and am, a Tubby supporter.
I liked him while he was at UK, and I like him at MN. I thought he had some good years and some bad years recruiting and some good years and some bad years coaching. I was sorry to see him go, but, based on the excitement level I’ve seen the last two years, I’m not sorry to see him gone (if that makes sense at all). He’s as fine a gentleman as anyone in the game; he’s a very good, perhaps top 15, coach, but perhaps not a top 5 coach. Mark it as opinion, counselor, but I’m entitled to it, am I not?
by oldcat'69 on Dec 24, 2008 9:34 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Tubby's Numbers
He currently ranks 13th among active coaches in careeer W-L (%) record. Pitino ranks 12th now.
Tubby ranks 11th among active coaches in NCAA W-L (%) record. Pitino ranks 3rd now.
There are 330 (plus) Div I coaches so those coaches rate very highly with such numbers.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 26, 2008 12:10 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
There was supposed to be a per cent sign
after the 15 and the 5 in the previous post.
by oldcat'69 on Dec 24, 2008 9:35 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Gillispie
He’ll be fine. More so than any other UK coach in my lifetime, he is utterly centered (focused) on basketball. He seems to have no outside distractions on his time. He seems to feed on the pressures of bigtime college basketball.
Few schools can offer a string of 5 coaches like Rupp, Hall, Sutton, Pitino, and Tubby. None, really. UNC has Bill Guthridge and Matt Doherty. Duke has Bucky Waters. UCLA has Steve Lavin (et al). But every one of those UK coaches is a Big Success in college basketball.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 25, 2008 11:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
Very true.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Truzenzuzex on Dec 26, 2008 9:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Bill Guthridge!? Do you even watch any teams besides Kentucky play?
What in the world is your beef with Guthridge? He was the brains behind Dean Smith for thirty years, and his record as head coach was better than Dean Smith’s in nearly every way besides longevity. His winning percentage is better than Tubby’s as well, and he has more Final Fours.
Setting aside the fact that he was the shooting coach and primary developer of big men for UNC for thirty years, how many other coaches do you know who made the Final Four 67% of the time as head coach?
The 1997-1998 year in which Tubby took Rick’s boys to our 7th National Championship was Bill Guthridge’s first as a head coach. Guess who was selected the Naismith Coach of the Year? No, not Tubby — Bill Guthridge, who made the Final Four in his first year as a head coach.
Tubby, however, was never able to do it again. Bill Guthridge did.
Fast forward two years, to Guthridge’s third year as a head coach. Tubby is coaching UK as a 5 seed in the tournament, and humiliates us by losing in the second round. Guthridge takes UNC Chapel Hill as an 8 seed and against all odds goes again to the Final Four. The man was a remarkable coach by anyone’s reckoning.
Doherty was indeed a putz.
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 27, 2008 2:26 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs
1998 COY
I would think the coach who actually WON the NCAA title would earn the COY award that year.
Tubby won it (unanimously) in 2003 and won the Phelan (COY) Award in 2005.
I doubt many UNC fans would share your adoration of Guthridge. He was a TERRIBLE recruiter (which Doherty WASN’T) and it showed.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Seriously
Look up the career W-L record and achievements of Rupp, Hall, Sutton, Pitino, and Tubby.
Then look up Guthridge. He doesn’t compare to ANY of them.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 2:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
He has 2 FF
are you saying he made it to the Final Four with Dean Smith’s Players???
by -Zoso- on Dec 29, 2008 5:32 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
I'm Saying Those 5 Coaches Are More Accomplished Than Guthridge
I don’t measure everything by FF appearances. If I did, I’d be a UCLA or UNC fan. Because they have the most FF appearances.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 29, 2008 7:31 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
Win one for the GUTHIE!!!!!
UNC war cry.
by bluecrip on Dec 27, 2008 1:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs
I enjoyed the insanity of the Doherty years as I have enjoyed few other stretches in college basketball.
Tarheels missing the tournament (snapping the streak that replaced ours after the Sutton years), Doherty assaulting opposing team’s players on the court, losing his sh*t and cursing in press conferences, the fans all in an uproar — it was a magical time to be in North Carolina as a ’Cat fan.
Ah, the good old days…
The only bad thing about it was that Puke University in Durham won more than its fair share during that stretch.
by Ken Pomeroy on Dec 27, 2008 2:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs
TUBBY QUIT
Noone will ever read this post because I am way late in writing it. But I am giggling so here it goes:
I used to love Tubby. He was my coach. I used to love my ex-wife. Though I was always a loyal fan and husband, they both left me. Luckily I didn’t have to pay my wife $3 million to leave. F*** ‘em both! My new coach is better and my new wife has bigger…! IIn other words, I have moved on and I’m happy. GO CATS!
by LyricSmith on Jan 7, 2009 2:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs
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