30% of the way through the season, where do the Kentucky Wildcats stand?
Kentucky came in to the 2008-2009 season with high hopes, but also some glaring deficiencies. On the hopeful side was the return of Patrick Patterson and Jodie Meeks, the addition of a nationally ranked point guard prospect in DeAndre Liggins, former touted recruit and JuCo transfer Kevin Galloway and big-man transfer Josh Harrellson. Also back were Michael Porter, Jared Carter and Perry Stevenson from last year's team, all a year older and hopefully better.
On the down side, UK had no returning seniors seeing significant minutes. A lack of seniors is always a big deal, and any team that has none who see significant playing time and depend on sophomores and freshmen for most of their impact players has to be considered young. But the hope was that this team would be better defensively and ball handling-wise than last year's due to the addition and return of numerous bigger, more athletic players who had shown the ability to handle the ball at some level.
How have things works out with 1/3 of the season now gone? A few key statistics via Ken Pomeroy's site:
| Statistic | National Rank | |||
| 2007-08 | 2008-09 | |||
| Offensive | Defensive | Offensive | Defensive | |
| Efficiency | 81 | 44 | 87 | 16 |
| Effective FG% | 54 | 18 | 35 | 31 |
| Turnover % | 285 | 263 | 327 | 208 |
| Offensive rebound % | 207 | 153 | 113 | 136 |
| Free throw rate | 24 | 281 | 13 | 136 |
| 3-point FG% | 89 | 54 | 242 | 156 |
| 2-point FG% | 57 | 16 | 11 | 18 |
| Free throw % | 55 | 261 | 24 | 216 |
| Block % | 289 | 31 | 63 | 7 |
| Steal % | 98 | 162 | 268 | 192 |
| 3-point attempt/FGA | 239 | 143 | 276 | 185 |
| Assist/FG made | 192 | 73 | 48 | 14 |
Analysis:
First, a disclaimer: We are comparing partial season stats to complete season stats, so keep that in mind. Also, efficiency stats (both offensive and defensive) from Pomeroy are adjusted for competition, so the inclination to say "But we haven't played good teams!" should be avoided, at least for those particular numbers.
The colors in this chart kind of give you an indicator of how Kentucky is doing in each particular stat. The darker the green, the better. The darker the red, the worse. White indicates a middle-of-the-road value.
There are four stats, known as the "four factors," which provide the basic components of offensive and defensive efficiency. They are shooting, rebounding, turnovers and free throws. We'll be paying particular attention to those stats as we analyze what is before us.
Shooting
As you can see, 2-point shooting is a strength of this team both offensively and defensively, just as it was last year. 3-point shooting, however, is a different story. UK shoots the 3 poorly and does not defend the three particularly well. Fortunately, our 2-point shooting has been more than good enough to prevent this from hurting our effective FG%, which is even better than last year. Our shooting defense, however, is somewhat worse overall primarily due to our failure to defend the three as well.
Rebounding
Kentucky is a kind of middling team when it comes to offensive rebounds. We look slightly better than last year, but this stat is not really adjusted for competition and is cause for concern. We also do not do a very good job of keeping opposing teams off the offensive glass.
There is really no good excuse for this. Kentucky is a very tall team top to bottom most of the time. Patrick Patterson leads the OR chase with 11.6/40 minutes, and believe it or not, Josh Harrellson is second at 11.16/40 minutes. Perry Stevenson is third with around 10. But the problem is not with our front court, but our back court, in particular Jodie Meeks, who has done almost no rebounding this year at all on either end. In fact, both Porter and Liggins grab more rebounds per 40 minutes than Meeks does.
Turnovers
One glaring weakness which I actually thought would improve was in the area of turnovers. Last year, turnovers were a huge problem, and this year, they have gone from a major concern to a giant black hole that threatens to consume the Kentucky season. To give you an idea of the kind of company we are in turnover wise, UK is only slightly more careful with the ball than the New Jersey Institute of Technology, Delaware State, or Northwestern State. That's the bad news.
The good news is that our turnover percentage has been improving steadily from its high against Kansas State. The last three games, in fact, turnovers have been a very respectable 20, 18 and 18.5%, which would put us around 63rd if that were the season stat. That improved ballhandling, unsurprisingly, has coincided with the recent advent of DeAndre Liggins seeing major minutes at the point guard position.
Free throws
This year, as last, Kentucky is a very good free throw shooting team and gets to the line a lot. Free throw rate (which is a measure of how often a team gets to the line) is in the top fifteen this year and was top 25 last year. That has really aided our offensive efficiency.
We have also tended to foul significantly less than last year, which has the defensive side of this stat (this isn't "free throw defense," an oxymoron, but rather a measure of how often the opponent gets to the line) looking much, much better than last year, which has aided our defensive efficiency by hampering our opponent's offensive efficiency.
Some other stats of interest
Kentucky is doing a much better job blocking shots, and avoiding blocks, than last year. Last year UK was very poor at avoiding blocked shots. This stat will worsen as our competition gets tougher, but right now, it is a very impressive statistic.
Steals is another big blot, and steal percentage, to my mind, is a much more damning statistic than turnover percentage, because a higher percentage of steals lead directly to baskets than do generic turnovers, which include violations such as charges, and ball handling errors requiring the opponent to bring the ball all the way up the court.
In recent games, the steal percentage has likely decreased due to better overall ball handling, so we should see this statistic improve over time.
Amazingly, our free throw percentage is even better this year than last compared to everyone else, and last year it was a major reason for our success, particularly in the SEC portion of the schedule. This is nice to see after a few years of struggling at the line while Tubby Smith was coach. I don't think this has anything to do with coaching, though -- it is more about personnel.
Conclusion
Despite the concerns of me and many 'Cat fans about some micro issues in this team, the macro side of it looks significantly better than last year. There is no denying that this is a very efficient team defensively, and even though the offensive efficiency stat doesn't look particularly strong, it has been dragged down by just a couple of games (UNC and West Virginia) where Kentucky struggled to score due to excess turnovers. Last year, Kentucky's OE 9 games into the season was about 103, and this year it is about 105 and we have had two games with an OE under 85 vs. only one such last year. In the last 3 games, UK's OE has been around 116, and I expect that to rise as Liggins becomes entrenched as the major contributor at point guard.
So despite much fan frustration (including yours truly) the statistical picture of the season so far looks rather better than last year at this time, and of course, so does the record. Kentucky has missed some major opportunities to make a statement to the NCAA selection committee, but we will have others although this year, they may be relatively few. Even though UK threw in a clunker against Miami, the overall trend for this team is positive, and this week of practice will hopefully do much to solidify some of the recent hopeful trends we have seen.
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Free throw percentage
It’s very nice to see a good free throw shooting team. I agree that the marked increase in percentage under Gillespie is mostly due to personnel but it seemed to me that those last few years under Smith free throwing shooting became a camel on the teams back. Tubby talked about it quite a bit and I know the team practiced them a lot and I think it became a kind of mental block.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
The UK Team This Year
Is a good shooting team. They are not a good ballhandling team.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 10, 2008 9:52 AM EST reply actions
That is so ...
… although, as I indicate, the ballhandling appears to be improving. Whether or it it will reach a level that may reasonably be described as, “good,” is anyone’s guess.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
by Glenn Logan on Dec 10, 2008 10:45 AM EST up reply actions
NOT a good shooting team...
Tru, as you may recall, I have said that this was an issue for the team since the beginning. It may be semantics, but to me a good shooting team is judged by the 3-pt shooting percentage. The reason that UK is showing such a good 2-pt shooting percentage is a matter of the competition they are playing at this point and the lack of size of the competitions front court. I suspect that the 2-pt % is a result of offensive rebounding and ‘put-backs’. Its not because the Patterson’s, Stevensons, etc are better than average shooters. Of course, on the other hand, a mark of a good player is one who plays within their stengths…you don’t want PPat to be at the top of the key hoisting 15 footers….so good for him on his decision making capabilities.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Not true about the 2pt FG%
I agree this team is woeful when it comes to shooting behind the arc, though I think a lot of that has to do with taking bad shots rather than an inherent lack of ability. If UK would go inside-out with Patterson at the beginning of possessions, you would see much better shots off of kick-outs and a corresponding rise in 3pt FG%.
As for the 2pt FG%, UK is every bit as good as the stat would lead one to believe. UK hasn’t feasted against lesser competition to arrive at that mark. Consider their 2pt FG % against the three best teams they have faced:
- Against UNC they shot 51.5% (17/33). UNC currently allows 39.9%, 24th in the nation.
- Against KState they shot 70.8% (17/24). KState currently allows 43.6%, 67th in the nation.
- Against Wes Virginia they shot 41.2% (14/34). West Virginia currently allows 44.9%, 93 in the nation.
If you look at just those three games, UK has shot 52.7% (48/91). That number would be tied for 46th in the nation for 2pt FG% right now. Yes, it’s lower than their overall 57.7%, but not so much that you can attribute their success simply to competition.
As far as shots within the arc, UK gets a lot of looks close to the basket, but they also get a lot of jump shots from around the free throw line and Harrellson has hit a few shots from the old 3pt-line. I think it’s safe to say that UK doesn’t benefit any more than any other team from close shots.
"That's not a Sherman tank, it's Frank Thomas!" - Monkeyball
Shooting ...
… is a combination of both. 3-point shooting percentage is just a component of overall shooting percentage. This is not complicated.
Your assertion that Patterson and Stevenson are not “better than average” is a very strange argument. There are lots of things that go into getting the ball into the basket, including footwork, size, touch, positioning, etc. Of course they are better than average.
Shooting is putting the ball in the basket. Nothing more, nothing less. You are confusing shooting with long range shooting, as though people who are capable of consistently making shots in and around the paint don’t count. That seems totally absurd to me.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Any UK Team With FG % Over 50% Is Good Shooting Team
The 2009 team meets that (50%) mark so far. It is the highest % since the Joe hall teams of the 1970’s.
http://www.bigbluehistory.net/bb/statistics/1977-78.html This was a GREAT shooting team.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 10, 2008 3:41 PM EST up reply actions
Semantics?
Saying our disagreement on the definition absurd, is absurd itself. Wilt Chamberlain had a GREAT shooting percentage, but I don’t think anyone would call him a great shooter.
A poor shooting team can have a great shooting percentage. That may be attributed to smart decisions….and I think that is the reason (among the reasons I stated above) that UK has a good shooting percentage…that is if one is happy with being 46th in the nation.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
None Better Than Wilt
He was INDEED a great shooter. I saw him play IN PERSON multiple times.
His fallaway bank shot was money. He didn’t dunk everything. He was a GREAT shooter.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 11, 2008 11:18 AM EST up reply actions
Sure...
…I’d put him right up there with his team-mate, Jerry West as some of the great shooters in the game. Now that is absurd. Good grief….
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Absolutely
West shot from further out but Chamberlain WAS a better shooter than him.
http://www.nba.com/history/players/chamberlain_stats.html Led NBA in FG % nine (9) times and scoring (7) times.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 11, 2008 11:55 AM EST up reply actions
This is silly..
…Shaq was the 4th best shooter in the NBA last year based on FG%. Only a goof would claim that Shaq is a great shooter.
To quote Mark Twain, ‘…there are 3 kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics’. This statement refers to the persuasive power of numbers, and the use of statistics to bolster weak arguments.
Besides this entire issue may be moot given that JLev showed that the team’s 2-pt shooting was 46th in the nation at this point.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Agree
A dunk may equal a shot attempt on the stat line but it doesnt equate to a good shooter in my book.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Wilt
Not just a dunker. 12-15 ft turnaround, fallaway bank shots. Finger rolls.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 11, 2008 1:28 PM EST up reply actions
Shag And Wilt
Not even on the same planet.
Wilt could shoot, not just dunk.
Shaq can just dunk, not shoot.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 11, 2008 1:27 PM EST up reply actions
Shaq and Wilt Part II
Shaq is a better shooter than Wilt given that Shaq’s carrer FG% is 0.581 v. Wilt’s 0.511.
Sheeesh, FYCT….get you stats straight!!!! LOL!!!
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
My Point Is This
Shaq dunks. Wilt could shoot. No comparison at all.
Oscar Robertson called Wilt the best ever in the NBA.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 11, 2008 3:11 PM EST up reply actions
Not Mark Twain's quote.....
It is more commonly attributed Benjamin Disraeli, two-time British Prime Minister, decades before Twain popularized it in the US.
Well if you want to get picky...
…it’s not really Mark Twain, it’s Samuel Langhorne Clemens. Whatever.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
It is absurd, in my opinion ...
… teams have often been described as good shooting teams but not good perimeter shooting teams.
I don’t really care one iota how you define shooting, or what semantics you chose to employ. The rest of college basketball defines it the way I do, so I’m comfortable with my previous comments.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Well I hope...
…it’s not an absurd thought that we can still be friends, though.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
Not at all.
I get a little defensive sometimes. :-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
No seniors
is a significant problem. It seemed like Bradley and Crawford really turned their play up a notch last year when the team got into SEC play. Also this team does seem to be lacking in leadership. Also I don’t think Patterson’s play is yet back to 100% from his injury. However as the young guys improve as the season progresses I expect this team to definitely be better than last years team by the end of the season assuming no injuries.
Senior Guards
UK had 2 senior guards in 2008. They did well in SEC but only 18-13 overall.
UK had 2 senior guards in 2004. They were 27-5 overall and the #1 seed in NCAA.
UK was moderately successful in 2000 and 2001 with 1 senior on each of those teams.
UK has 2 junior guards in 2009. Neither is particularly a good ballhandler.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 10, 2008 11:21 AM EST up reply actions
NCAA championship teams. . .
I think usually tend to have at least some seniors on the team at some positon that significantly contribute to leadership. If I am making my picks in the NCAA tournament I will generally choose a senior laden team over a young team that are closely matched in the ratings. I know there are examples of championship teams without senior leadership but there are a lot more that had it.
Yes And No
Recent UK championship teams had a mixture of all 4 classes.
The 1978 Cats had sophs Kyle Macy and Jay Shidler plus junior Truman Claytor at G.
The 96 Cats had senior Tony Delk, juniors Jeff Sheppard and Anthony Epps, and frosh Wayne Turner at G.
The 1998 teams had senior Sheppard, junior Turner, senior Cameron Mills, and frosh Saul Smith at G.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 10, 2008 12:39 PM EST reply actions
First post
Hey guys, I just stumbled upon this site a couple of weeks ago and love it! So refreshing to find a place where folks “intelligently” discuss UK ball. I really enjoy the articles and you guys make great comments and bring up good points on a lot of things.
I agree this team is young and that is a factor with the ballhandling and turnover issues. A couple of other things that haven’t been mentioned but I think are important are the lack of agression and heart I’ve seen from this team so far. They react way too much (and often way too late) rather than take control.
I think that will improve as the year goes along. More consistency will also hopefully follow behind more experience. As long as BCG keeps giving Liggins more minutes at PG, we’re going to see better things happen. He’s still young and make mistakes but he does provide a big spark when he’s in the game.
Welcome to the site slidemank.
I too just happened to stumble across this excellent site last spring. It is by far the best on the www for UK sports and intelligent conversation.
Welcome ...
… and thanks for the comment. We’re pleased you enjoy the blog, and hope you will join in if you are of a mind.
We will surely improve, and that improvement is already reflected in the statistics. Our turnover percentage has returned to a reasonable number from the land of the intolerable, and hopefully stats like offensive rebounding and 3-point shooting will follow, at least to some extent.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Thanks........
for the warm welcome. Glad to join in.
I certainly agree. I’ve lost a little hair in relation to the offensive rebounding. There have been a number of times, for example, I’ve seen PPat rotate out to the hight post and as soon as he passes out……….boom, a bad three point attempt. Meanwhile he’s still out high and there is nobody, and I mean nobody, underneath to clean up.
Hopefully they’ll find better offensive patience and start exploiting the low post a LOT more. When they do that as they did in the last 14 minutes or so against MS Valley, they look like a different ball team. Patterson has got to post up hard like he’s capable of doing too. But if they can learn to be patient and break down the defense we’ll start seeing a much more fluid offense come to pass. And I don’t know about anybody else, but that would make me one happy camper!
There are definitely some good signs about this team
The defense in particular has been fantastic. It could be better if they could just force a few more steals, but I’m pretty comfortable with where it is right now. Defense is usually the tough part for new players to learn and that also is cause for optimism with this team. As good as it’s been, it very well could get better.
Offensively, the easiest thing to correct should be the type of 3pt FG attempted and this is something that should go hand-in-hand with getting the ball to Patterson. UK has shot a lot of their three pointers by just dribbling up to the line and shooting or taking a pass from up top. It’s better to take those shots when the ball is being passed back out from inside. Obviously this means the ball actually needs to go inside first, but this should have the dual benefit of giving Patterson more touches and if the shot isn’t there, kickouts for better 3pt attempts. This offense really could be top-50 in the nation in Offensive Efficiency with just some better shooting from behind the arc.
Turnovers also need to be improved, but that subject has been discussed to death.
"That's not a Sherman tank, it's Frank Thomas!" - Monkeyball
Hooray...
That’s a great article tru… I like it… I like it alot! I have believed that for quite a while now, although I have had my own doubts during certain games. I was really hoping that Liggins would come charging out of the gate and control the game like Trump works the back room at on Wall St., but alas I expected too much. However, he does seem to be accepting his role much better more recently. I think Liggins has a very bright future, and the outcome of the season weighs heavily on his own personal progress. I think the sky is the limit for this team, but Liggins needs to get out there and play like he’s possessed. This team’s confidence is waivering and someone has to step up and lead the way. Who better than the “Lead guard” to fill that role?
GO BIG BLUE!! Long Live Coach G (so long as he wears KY blue)!!!
I don't know if the ...
… ceiling for this team is really unlimited, but it could be quite a bit higher than most people suspect. The fact that we have no seniors playing major minutes is not going to be solved until next year.
As our point guard play improves, this team will gradually realize some of it’s promise — or so I hope.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Next Year = Close To 30 W
Everybody back. At least 2 recruits who will be in rotation.
UK had 1 senior in 1990 and 1 in 1991, then 4 in 1992.
29 W that year. Expect similar in 2010 season.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 10, 2008 4:29 PM EST up reply actions
Everybody back?
I hope you are right. However, I have my doubts about PP returning next year, especially if people are telling him that he is regressing, instead of progressing, under BCG’s tutelage.
Yes
I don’t see Patterson leaving unless he is lottery pick. And he’s not projected there (yet) this year.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 10, 2008 5:02 PM EST up reply actions
And he may not be.
Patterson has not been as impressive this year so far. But there is a lot of year left.
Still, if he is going to be a lottery pick, he is going to have to up his game quite a bit from where it is right now. His numbers look good, but his play has just been good, not great.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Agreed.
Word on the streets is that NBA scouts also agree.
by BBallSophist on Dec 10, 2008 5:58 PM EST up reply actions
Not surprised.
He may need another year. That injury cost him almost 8 months of development. Players have gone from undraftable to first-rounders in less time than that.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
NBAdraft.net
He’s projected at # 16 in 2009.
It also has BJ Mullens going # 4 and he’s been absolutely underwhelming thus far.
Other players of note in the 2010 Mock Draft:
1 – John Wall
4 – Derrick Favors
18 – Scotty Hopson
by mrmondaynite on Dec 10, 2008 7:59 PM EST up reply actions
That's Up From # 29
He dropped down that far.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 10, 2008 9:09 PM EST up reply actions
Regressing? What idiot told him that?
Let’s see, he didn’t have any physical acitivity leading up to the season other than rehabbing for six months.
He seems to be shaking off the rust quite nicely, and I would say he is beginning to resume his beastly ways. And he will continue to improve, as long as the team gets him the ball.
After-all he’s only shooting 72.5%, I suppose some call that regression, he’s averaging more boards, I suppose some call that regression, he is second on the team in assists, I suppose some call that regression …
I realize you, tooblue, didn’t say he’s regressing, so my response is not directed toward you. It just baffles me that some ‘fans’ are so obtuse!
How about some progressing?
Ken, I’m with ya there. I don’t believe he’s regressing at all. He just needs to progress by becoming a force again…………..for the full game I mean. There has to be more PPat/Liggins interaction and I hope BCG will see that. PP’s percentage is perfect, and if he is able to get more touches it will be even more perfect. It’s time to start breaking down thess zone defenses. We’re gonna see a lot of it. I patiently await the outcome,,,,,,,,
Re: slidemank -- "There has to be more PPat/Liggins interaction ... "
I could have thrown my Tuesday post in the garbage and just wrote what you wrote :)
It’s so early in the year; I think by mid-January or so the ‘Cats’ chemistry will be much better than it is now, which should result in improved shot selection, and overall improved play.
Liggins, to me, is the key. And he’s given me no reason thus far to think that he won’t be an outstanding point guard, which in the end will make everyone better.
by Ken Howlett on Dec 10, 2008 10:45 PM EST up reply actions
Liggins/PPat
It will happen when Coach sees an improvement in Liggins overall attitude and not be a smart …, Coach knew his attitude when he recruited him. Mr. Liggins needs an attitude adjustment. He has already tested Coach 2 times that I know of…the kid better grow up.
Coach has given him chances
To remain on the team. He had better realize that, accept the discipline and he will start.
Discipline and Attitude
I don’t know how many members here had to deal with teenagers growing up when same thought they knew everything and had no problem going against the rules of the household. Just to suffice to say that Hubby and I had plenty of problems with 2 of his kids and I was the “evil” stepmother during those years. They actually ended up being a model example for my 2 kids who were several years younger, because mine knew that nothing other than the rules would be accepted. “Tough Love” is very hard to execute as a parent when you love your kids so much. But from what I have experienced, it does reap rewards for the kids later in life.
Patterson is pacing himself
Last year as a freshman Patterson went all out all the time. What did it get him? A stress fracture that forced him to sit for 6 months.
This year he is pacing himself. When Liggins is in the game, he is running the court and getting easy baskets. In the half court, he’s not working hard because he knows he’s not going to get the ball in an advantageous position. He knows that when we really need a basket, coach will direct the guards to get the ball to him — and then he will work hard to get position.
He’s doing pretty much the same thing Rondo did his second year — showing flashes of ability — but not risking injury. He’s NBA bound — Billy said so — Orton is replacing him. If Patterson doesn’t go pro, then Billy has a scholarship problem.
This is all about money — not final fours and national championships.
So you think that PPat
Is limiting his aggressive play this year? Due to a possible injury? I don’t think that is his reason for his different attitude as to compared to last year. I do not think he is purposely doing this style of play, yes he may have in the back of his mind he may be injured again. But he has to know what the doctors have told him. As Forty has said so many times here. it takes longer for the mental to come back vs the physical. Anyway, if he is, I do not think it is intentional.
Speaking of regressing...
Whatever happened to Randolph Morris? Last I heard, he was traded to Atlanta, but I haven’t seen his name in Atlanta box scores for quite some time. Perhaps, as a public service to his former University, he should speak to the team’s curent players about the pitfalls of leaving school early to pursue an NBA dream.
Morris
On Atlanta roster but no PT lately.
He is earning NBA $ while pursuing his dream.
He very nearly went to the NBA straight from HS.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 10, 2008 5:04 PM EST reply actions
And probably would have been better off financially...
He would have gotten a massive rookie contract as opposed to the deal he’s operating under now. IMO
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
Which according to David Stern, on Charlie Rose last night, is why the NBA now has a 19 year age limit.
19 year age limit.
Not that anyone asked but that rule is garbage. It would be better for college basktball if they ran it the same way baseball does. Either declare for the draft or attend school for at least three years.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Interesting point, but ...
… Stern said that the college game’s wants and needs play no part in the NBA’s decision on an age limit.
They look at the age limit as a business decision. They don’t want the teams throwing away millions of dollars on unproven players. He went on to say that they want to be able to see the players play in the most competitive environment possible, alas, the 19 year old age limit.
I didn’t get the feeling that he (or the owners) were considering changing the requirement any time soon.
NBA
Its actually a great rule for the NBA. They not only get more proven better prospects but they also get built in fans when college fans now follow their favorite players to the NBA. This didnt happen quite as much when so many young high school players where jumping straight to the league. I think its a pretty bad rule for the NCAA.I dont like the one and done thing and while I will take whatever we can get within the context of the the current system I would like to see players stay several years.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
I'm with you. I like players to stay for at least three years.
From a fans perspective, losing a really good player after only a couple of years is disheartening … I begin to play the ‘what if?’ game. Plus, I like to see players succeed, and I think long-term success for most players depends upon them getting as much major-college time as possible. Witness Randolph Morris and many, many others.
Yes, you are probably right about the NBA Player’s Association, but I’m not sure the union is stronger than Stern. I guess we’ll find out.
I Sat In Front Of His Parents At Roundball Classic In Chicago (2004)
And I thought he would declare for the NBA draft based on what they were saying to other players’ parents. He / they were looking for Top 20 draft position.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 11, 2008 10:31 AM EST up reply actions
Morris and Dwight Howard....
were the top two HS big men that year. Both played in the Atlanta area, and ESPN televised a head-to-head match-up that year. There didn’t seem to be much difference in them in that game. They both looked ready at the time.
I saw that game ...
… and I thought Morris had a little bit better game. They both scored in the mid-20’s and gathered in a lot of rebounds.
Morris just seemed a little more fluid in his movements, and seemed to have a post move repertoire that was a little more complete. I was wrong — Of course making a judgment on a player after seeing him play only once is very difficult.
Highlights....
were shown again last night during the Bishop McGuinnis/Putnam City game on the U.
Of course this game was supposed to showcase Orton and Xavier Henry, but neither played due to injury.
But you are right Ken, seeing that much again, I was reminded that Morris seemed to have the advantage too.
One Game
Bobby Perry outplayed Randolph Morris at the Chick-Fil-A tournament back in 2002. He earned MVP and his stats dwarfed those by Morris.
One game is not enough.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 12, 2008 9:49 AM EST up reply actions
One game
Think of it as a pickup game you might be playing in.
I went lights out and scored 21 in a pick up game to 24 a couple of weeks ago.
I am not that good.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Many people
have the tendency to base their opinion of someone’s ability on their perfomance in a single game. I’ve been guilty of it. You sometimes are sucked in by the level of competition, as in this case. Morris was playing against the #1 ranked senior (Rivals). Morris was #10. He didn’t achieve that ranking based on that game, and the future certainly played out very differently for those two young men.
Players win games
Statistics tell us something about how teams win (or lose) games after the fact. But teams — players playing together — win games in real time. Our team this year is not playing very well together in real time against quality competition. The instigators (the guards) are not in sync with the terminators (Patterson, Stevenson). Meeks floats and squares up for threes, but he doesn’t seem to screen or pick much for other players. Liggins is good in the open court, but he’s not effective in the half-court set.
It’s hard to figure out what the UK offense is trying to achieve.
The offense ...
… is very strange. It isn’t motion, it isn’t plays, it just looks like a post guy posting and everyone else looking for an opportunity to shoot. Anyone can coach that.
To be fair, the offense looked weird early last year, then it began to make sense. Maybe this is just some kind of pattern with Gillispie-coached teams.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Exactly!
Very little motion and most times when they do pass it’s just around the perimeter. You’re not going to break down a defense by doing that. Tru, I like you just hope it’s a early season kind of thing that will get ironed out by the New Year.

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