Which 5 Year Period "Destroyed" UK Basketball?
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 1, 2008 7:29 PM EST
Email
Print94-37 (71.8%) and 1-3 in postseason play?
No, those are UK results from 1961 thru 65. UK made FF in 1966.
115-40 (74.2%) and 3-5 in postseason play, including 2 postseason L in Rupp Arena?
No, those are UK results from 1979 thru 83. UK made FF in 1984.
108-53 (67.1%) and 7-4 in postseason play?
No, those are UK results from 1985 thru 89. UK hired Rick Pitino the next year.
122-38 (76.3%) and 8-3 in postseason play?
No, those are UK results from 1990 thru 94. Rick Pitino finally succeeded after that.
131-40 (76.6%) and 9-5 in postseason play?
Some think Yes but I say No, those are UK results from 2003 thru 07.
If none of the first four 5 Year Periods destroyed UK basketball, why did the fifth do it?
45 comments
|
1 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
"Destroy"??????
You can’t destroy Kentucky basketball. That is absurd. It is also absurd that you won’t give it a rest. Just sit back and enjoy what is, man. We know you are sad that Tubby is gone, so are a lot of us, but pouting about it every week won’t bring him, or Saul, back. Please just look to the future, and try to see the light shining through. Grab a cold one, maybe some popcorn and enjoy the game. You’ll feel better if you do, and probably prevent that stree-induced heart-attack that you have coming.
That's My Point
The last 5 years didn’t DESTROY it, nor did any of those other 5 year periods.
The ABSURDITY is the oft repeated mantra that UK basketball is dead because of the last 5 or 10 or even 2 years.
His last 2 years. 44-25, 2-2 in NCAA. Great, no – OF COURSE NOT. But terrible, NO!
1960 and 61, 37-16 (1-1 in NCAA). 1981 and 82, 44-14 (0-2 in NCAA). 1989 and 90, 27-36 (0 NCAA games).
Many UK fans were spoiled by the mid 1990’s. I’m not. That level of success hadn’t been seen at UK since the late 1940’s and early 1950’s. I was born in 1951. NEVER IN MY LIFETIME had UK achieved what was done in 1996-97-98.
It's about the program
I think you hit the nail on the head when you said people got spoiled. You can’t expect that kind of success every year, but people expect it nonetheless. If you don’t get the success the fanbase expects, people are going to be unhappy – and that goes for anywhere. Ask Joe B. Hall about following a legend.
Like Dick Vitale said, “The NCAA Tournament is a MONSTER”. UK fans want to go to the Final Four and win National Championships, bottom line. UK fans want UK to be in the national conversation. This is why people say the program was in decline even if the win/loss record was excellent over the long term of Tubby’s tenure. UK fans think we are a premier program on the level of Kansas, UCLA, Duke, and UNC. The 5 great programs. Starting in 1999:
1999: Duke, Mich St, UConn, OSU
2000: Florida, UNC, Mich St, Wisconsin
2001: Duke, Maryland, Mich St, Arizona
2002: Maryland, Kansas, Indiana, Oklahoma
2003: Syracuse, Texas, Marquette, Kansas
2004: Oklahoma St, Georgia Tech, Duke, UConn
2005: Illinois, Louisville, UNC, Mich St
2006: LSU, UCLA, Florida, George Mason
2007: Florida, UCLA, Georgetown, OSU
2008: UNC, Kansas, Memphis, UCLA
Tally:
Big five:
Duke: 3
UNC: 3
Kansas: 3
UCLA: 3
Kentucky: 0
In other words, to be on par, we should have gone to 3 Final Fours in this span. We didn’t, we went to 0. This is over 10 years, it’s not a flash in the pan. Consistent NCAA Tournament success is what makes a good program. Is it reasonable to expect that UK will do as well as it’s fellow “top tier” schools on the national stage? I think so.
Little Brothers: (teams UK fans think we have a better program than:) a.k.a. salt on the wound
Louisville: 1
Michigan State: 4(!!! Two of which were beating UK)
Florida: 3
OSU: 2
UConn: 2
Syracuse: 1
If you think about it, Florida (1 Runner-Up, 2 NC’s) has kind of stolen our spot on the top tier, looking at things lately at least. We need to get that back. Michigan state is also up on the top tier there (3 FF, 1 NC), but they have some history at least. Kentucky fans don’t care for it either way.
This is why people think the Kentucky program is in decline.
Looking at “the program you built” (inertia):
Tubby’s 2nd year to 1 year after: 0 Final Fours (sub par)
Pitino 2nd year to 1 year after: 4 Final Fours (above par)
Like I said in the other thread, I think Tubby deserves the lion’s share of the credit for the National Championship in 1998. He’s a great coach and the best bench coach still coaching, IMHO. Would we have had a better year in 2008 if Tubby had stayed? I think so. But he didn’t stay and that’s his legacy, his choice.
But as for the doubters, they find no more Final Fours in the “House that Tubby Built”. If he had a couple of Final Fours with his program and maybe at least a Final Game or Championship in there like the competition, no one would be saying anything. But if you look at success in terms of Final Fours against who UK fans consider their program equal to and better than, you will see the heart of the discontent. UK fans want to be hanging banners. UK fans want to be in the National Championship conversation in the media. Look how mad people get when Jay Bilas says he doesn’t think Kentucky will make the tournament. Sticks and stones, but UK fans get really mad when the media disses the team or doesn’t think our team is a great one, just look at our forums. And all this continues post-Tubby. Gillispie gets a pass for a couple of years, then fans are going to be on him bigtime if he doesn’t show some improvement (and I think he will).
That said, no one ruined UK basketball. The last 3 years have been poor by UK standards, but that’s a very short run. Otherwise we’ve been competitve and had one National Championship caliber team, and a couple Final Four caliber teams in the last 10 years, just some bad luck. Think if Bogans hadn’t been injured and we won just those two elite 8 overtime games against Michigan St. Tubby would have been a major hero with another NC and 2 Final Fours under his belt. I think Tubby would have had a good 2008 and 2009 and 2010 building on his very good 2006 recruiting class, and I was sorry to see him go. But that’s not what happened so we just have to move on.
And as for the less rational fans, the last 3 years have been sub-par by UK standards. Some fans and certainly the media have short memories.
All that said, the program is fine. UK Basketball is more than a mere 10 years of tradition! Billy G is going to be a great coach for us and I’m excited about the future. Go Cats!
UK Averages 2 FF Per Decade
The NCAA tourney has been played 70 years. UK has been to 13 FF. That’s about 1 every 5 years or 2 per decade.
UK fell short in recent years. Like Rupp did his last 14 years at UK. Or Hall and Sutton did.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 2, 2008 1:08 PM EST up reply actions
Sub-par, OF COURSE
62-38 the 3 prior seasons. (Like 1963-64-65, only 52-25 then)
Only 2-3 in NCAA. (Like 1980-81-82, only 1-3 in NCAA then)
The UK program has struggled the past 3 years after having the #1 W-L (%) record (87-15) the 3 years prior.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 2, 2008 1:04 PM EST up reply actions
Forty, I love your logic! I'm only three years older and still "obsessed". This bluegrass
transplant to Western Kentucky loves your stuff! I may not always agree with you, but I KNOW you do your research.
On this subject, you and I agree! Expectations of the fans, including me, have been too high for this team this year. Come March, the team will hopefully be a contender that nobody wants to play. Certainly, next year, we should be a better team. We all want to be in the national championship game each year. Last year we might have been playing in the finals. Just think:
- Had Tubby stayed, had Morris stayed along with Bradley, Crawford, Meeks and Patterson; it would have been a formidable combination of a great floor coach and five great starters.
- Had we not suffered the injuries we had, we would have had an excellent bench with Jasper, Porter, Harris and Stevenson. Because of the great starters, they could perform with no pressure.
The fact is that it did not happen due to a number of causes, some of which the fans could have helped. Others were just bad decisions and bum luck. BUT YOU’RE RIGHT! KY BASKETBALL WAS NOT DESTROYED!
Coach G. may or may not be the answer for the current situation, but he does give me hope. He smiles a great deal on the sidelines, but he hates to lose. He is completely involved in basketball. It is his life and he wants to be successful at Kentucky. He will not give a poor effort. He is young and less experienced than Tubby, but both men are human and have and will make mistakes. We need to learn a little from the Tubby experience and give Coach G. room to breathe and enjoy his time with us on this earth. The victories will come. If the chips fall right, IMHO we are very, very close to picking up another championship. Even if we don’t win it all, Kentucky will always be THE premier basketball program.
by Blueobsessed on Dec 2, 2008 10:08 PM EST up reply actions
Gillispie Will Do Fine (In Time)
But he’s not going to recreate 1996-97-98 immediately.
It took Pitino 7 years to do that.
BOTH Tubby and Pitino are in better places for them.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 3, 2008 7:10 AM EST up reply actions
a couple of points...
1st, you can’t destroy Kentucky basketball.. what’s wrong with you…? (that was sarcasm)
2nd, Kentucky basketball was in a steady decline over the last 2-3 years and everyone seen… The fans, the players, the pundits, former players & coaches, hell I think even Tubby would admit that…
Blame it on coaching, recruiting, scheduling, whatever, the point is we were in a steady decline and EVERYONE knew it… It wasn’t like there was a light at the end of the tunnel… The top recruits just were not interested in playing for Tubby for whatever reason (style would be my guess).
3rd. your taking cheating Eddie years, to Tubbys last years (when whatever was their was created by him), that’s not a fair comparison…
plus, taking it a step further and you looking at Joe’s final years after a long and tenuous career…
and lastly, I’v never heard anyone, other then you, say that Tubby destroyed UK basketball, just that we were in a downward spiral, which is exactly where we were
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
Steady Decline?
35 W. 28 W. 23 W. 24 W. 22 W. 32 W. 27 W. 28 W. 22 W. 22 W. I see Up & Down – not steady up OR down.
UK had 2 subpar years in 2006 and 2007. And 1960 and 1961. And 1981 and 1982. And other 2 year periods also.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 2, 2008 1:06 PM EST up reply actions
you continue to look at everything in wins and loses
Your condescending post are obvious, but always remember.
Just because you say it, does not make it so…
Steelers fan 1st! UK is my 2nd love.
I Use Facts > Here Are Some More
I don’t see a continual decline.
UK was dominant from 1946 through 1954 but then entered a 40 Year Period Of Decline until 1993 through 1998. Does that make any sense?
Not to me. But UK was nowhere close to its dominance in the late 40’s and eraly 50’s UNTIL the mid 90’s. Those are facts.
MY OPINION based on the facts is that the Mid 1990’s at UK are an aberration, not the norm.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 2, 2008 1:59 PM EST up reply actions
Which is a cycle that repeats itself over time.....almost everywhere.......
no matter what the circumstances are, that bring it about (coaching, scheduling, recruiting, cheating, etc.).
I thought it fairly obvious this was sarcastic
Its just showing that if none of those other ‘dark ages’ destroyed UK basketball, theres no reason to think it will this time. Correct me if I’m wrong, but this is just showing how ridiculous the pessimism is.
Completely agree
It sucks when both of your teams let you down on a weekly basis. But you still gotta cheer for them. Go 'Noles. (Damn you UF) And Go 'Cats. (About time we had a seasonal tourney win, even if it was in Vegas)
by floundringaround on Dec 2, 2008 7:49 PM EST up reply actions
Agree with your basics, "Forty", but you're a little tough on Joe B.
After all, even though his win percentage wasn’t what Adolph’s was, he had 3 FFs and one NC in 13 years, and it wasn’t in his first year. I was on the freshman team his first year as an assistant (that’s right, I’m four years older than you!!), and can tell you he’s not the most dynamic personality on the planet, but he was maybe the best recruiter UK has ever had, and at worst, in the top two, with Pitino. Some of the younger guys ought to take a little longer perspective of “trends”
I Like Hall A Lot
But he had enormous talent in those middle years (of his career) with limited results.
He is SURELY the best UK recruiter ever. Absolutely better than Pitino.
His first year as UK assistant was 1965-66 so you were on the 1966 Kittens. The first semester grades hurt that team. Only 1 scholarship guy left after grades came out.
That was the year I switched from UC to UK as a fan. Or maybe better said Added UK To UC as a fan.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 3, 2008 7:14 AM EST up reply actions
Hey Tru...
Did you just happen to give out some ASOB business cards while at the tourney?
I have seen some new names on board in the past few days.
I was calling for some more “oldies but goodies” about a week ago. Thanks!
No.
My wife bragged to some Iowa fans that I ran a UK blog, but nobody else I know of.
Besides, my business cards don’t have the blog on them … yet. I have two sets of business cards. That’s enough for now. :-)
But I am always happy to see new members.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
UK Frosh Team In 1965-66
That’s what he said.
He may remember Alvin Ratliff, Phil Argento, Bobby Hiles (I think), and Jerry Guter as his teammates. Or he may be one of them himself.
For Those Who May Not Recognize Any Name But Argento
Alvin Ratliff was 6-5 star from Meade Memorial in the mountains of eastern KY. Never played varsity. All-state player in 1965. Second best in state behind Butch Beard.
Bobby Hiles was 6-1 guard from Maysville KY. Never played varsity either.
Jerry Guter was big forward (6-8) from Troy NY. Never played varsity but his HS team was one of the best ever in NY state history.
Argento played on UK varsity in 1967-68-69 and was star of the frosh team.
OK, you're (almost) all right
Argento, Hiles, Guter, Ratliff, etc, were on that team, but I’m not one of them. I was the original “white man disease” guy—6’1, good shooter and ball handler, but timed in the sprints with a calendar, and we got a day off from Harry when I got both feet off the ground one day in practice. Bill Rutledge by name, now retired from the Air Force and a bona fide PGA golf pro. Still think the Runts were the best ball-handling team ever, and I watched them practice every day. If they had high single-digit turnovers IN A GAME, Coach Rupp was on their asses the next day in practice—ask Larry Conley if that’s not the truth. And, Forty, Hiles actually made his grades first semester and played second semester, then transferred to Morehead. We ran the strangest offense you ever saw—a 1-3-1 with Argento and Hiles at the point and baseline handling the ball while the rest of us set a lot of picks. It was a very interesting year of big-time basketball education for a farm boy from Western KY. And thanks for the welcome to the blog, KYKat1; been reading you guys for a year or so and decided to get into the fray. It’s nice to read some opinions from people who understand and appreciate basketball. And, by the way, Guter was about 6-4 or 5, quick and fast, but his hands were so bad he couldn’t pick a basketball up off the floor without dropping it.
Guter
His Troy (NY) Central Catholic HS team was rated as good as (or better than) Lew Alcindor’s NYC Power Memorial HS team in 1965.
He was not the star. Luther Rackley was 7-footer who played at Xavier. Roosevelt Phillips was 6-5 guard who never made it to college (but may have been the most talented guy on the team).
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 3, 2008 7:35 PM EST up reply actions
Welcome
Nice to have some inside perspective of the program.Would love to hear some more Rupp stories,one of the greatest in the history of the game.
Rackley had sharp elbows!!
Beat them in Memorial Coliseum (with all the scholarship players; Ratliff played a good game) but got chopped to pieces on their court with all us walk-ons playing. Ever try to guard a guy 11 inches taller than you? HIs elbows are about ear high. Rackley played a couple of years for the Knicks, I think, but not real NBA material.
I really want to hear your stories
About your years with Rupp and Hall.
I was all about rearing 2 children in the early 70’s so at that time my priorities were not UK basketball. I love UK sports because my Dad instilled it, but I would love to hear more of your experience as a player.
6 Years
Rackley played 6 years in NBA.
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 4, 2008 12:00 AM EST up reply actions
There are many young members here
Who have no idea of UK tradition or Rupp. Many just remember the Pitino years.
And I Googled your name...
What I saw is very impressive…thank you for your service to the USA and continue to enjoy your retirement years and UK Basketball.
Don't know Stillcatwoman,
but “Hi” to her husband; I’m a “golf professional”, not a “professional golfer”. There’s a world of difference, mainly about 10 strokes a round :-)
Didn’t realize Luther Rackley was in the NBA that long. I’m not much of an NBA fan, except for where former UK players are concerned—speaking of, how ‘bout Rondo’s triple double last night?
Finally, if anyone really wants to hear some old, moldy stories about what I observed in two hours per day for only one basketball season, I’ll have to search around in my old, moldy brain for it. I do seem to remember a few interesting/funny stories about Coach Rupp at practice and in games—all first person observations by a farm boy who was in “Shock and Awe” at just being there.
Rupp Stories As Told By Russell Rice > Here's One
The Cats were traveling through Western KY on a bus and stopped for lunch. Rupp didn’t have enough $ so he paid by personal check.
When he signed the check and gave it to the owner, he said, “I guess you know who that name is on the check.”
The owner said, “I’m a-hopin’ it’s you!”
by FortyYearCatFan on Dec 4, 2008 7:34 PM EST up reply actions
Hey, Tru
If you’re still monitoring this thread, are you interested in posting some memories from 43 years ago (can the Runts actually have played that long ago? If so, how do I get them to you for posting?
I think I can speak for many
in saying we would love to hear such “old, moldy” stories : ) It’s a rarely-heard and really exciting perspective for a fan to get, to get to hear from inside the program like that, and as kykat said, many of us are younger (do I still get to qualify as younger at 31??) and don’t know much about the program pre-Pitino.
by blue kentucky girl on Dec 4, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions
I still qualify as young at 30...
So I don’t think one more year is the threshold!!! ;-)
Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."
whew!
Y’all are making be feel better : )
by blue kentucky girl on Dec 5, 2008 11:46 AM EST up reply actions
He definitely wants them
I’ll go ahead and speak for him. 8’)
We have had some good features already by some Classic players. They were very popular.
Absolutely!
Ken has done a bang-up job of getting some former players from the 1960’s and beyond to interview with him, so I am absolutely interested.
Just email me (the link is at the bottom) and we can talk about it. There are lots of ways to go.
I’d absolutely be interested in those memories. I know most of our members would, too.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
Community Guidelines
[UPDATED 01/18/2012]
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Certain photos copyright © 2012 by Associated Press or Getty Images. Any commercial use or distribution without the express written consent of Associated Press and Getty Images is strictly prohibited.
