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Are Texas and Ohio State better programs to coach at than Kentucky?

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Obviously, this piece is in response to a, "Dear Gary" email or letter written to CBS Sportsline contributor Gary Parrish, a guy I generally respect, which was identified earlier in this fanshot.  In his response, Parrish lists the top basketball programs in this order:

1. North Carolina
2. UCLA
3. Duke
4. Kansas
5. Ohio State
6. Texas
7. Kentucky
8. Arizona
9. Indiana
10. Connecticut

Obviously, many Kentucky (and as it turns out, non-Kentucky) fans blanched at this list, and in the opinion of this writer, rightly so.  Ohio State and Texas both are fine programs, to be sure, but better than Kentucky?

Before I go off with a tirade, let's see if Gary can defend himself:

Ohio State and Texas have endless resources and great recruiting bases.

Trust me, in basketball circles, those are now considered "great" jobs.

(Why do you think Rick Barnes didn't leave Texas for Kentucky?)

All that is true, but let's face it -- does "endless resources and great recruiting bases" really trump seven national championships and the winningest college basketball program in America?  I wonder if he really means to make that argument, or if he is just trying to convince himself that the ease of staying at schools with obviously inferior basketball traditions, results, and, well, programs is really why Rick Barnes announced his intention to stay in Austin?  It is also a fact that Barnes was never offered the Kentucky job, and likely would not have been, at least until after Gillispie turned it down (which as we all know, didn't happen).

Scrolling further down, we find this attempt to revise and extend his argument:

I actually think the tempered passion for basketball at a place like Texas or Ohio State makes the job more attractive.

At OSU, you can lose to Gardner-Webb in November and nobody really cares because Beanie Wells is still playing.

Try that at Kentucky, and the fans want to kill you.

On another note, the natural recruiting bases for Texas and OSU are better than the natural recruiting base for Kentucky. So all things considered, I think I'd rather have the Texas job or the OSU job more than the Kentucky job because even though they are less prestigious they would probably give me the best chance to succeed at a high level (and without the day-to-day pressures I might deal with at Kentucky).

Again, this is all subjective, I know.

But that's how I would state my case for Texas and Ohio State over Kentucky.

So here, Parrish uses the contradictory to prove his point, i.e. that because Texas and Ohio State care less about basketball (and they do) than football, their basketball jobs are better.  But the weird thing is, he ranks North Carolina and UCLA above Ohio State and Texas as if their fans wouldn't care about a Gardener-Webb loss, and as if their fans were as forgiving of the failures of Matt Dougherty and Steve Lavin, respectively, as the UT and OU fans would be of such a debacle. 

Not only that, but Parrish's argument would seem to just as strongly support a claim that Florida is a better job than Kentucky for precisely the same reasons.  Florida's argument using Parrish's reasoning should be resoundingly stronger in that they not only have all the advantages Parrish advances as justification for Texas and Ohio State, but they have won more championships in the modern era and arguably have a better basketball tradition over the last decade than either Texas or Ohio State, yet they are unranked and unmentioned by Gary.

Parrish is right that listing teams like this is subjective, but it's not that subjective.  His subsequent claim isn't just baseless, it's unworthy of any thinking person and can't be rationally defended.  For a fact, he doesn't even try to approach the problem rationally, but with some weird claim that easier local recruiting bases and dispassionate fans make for a better job than wildly passionate fans, a peerless tradition and a national recruiting reach.  Absurd, I know, but what if we just throw reason aside for some kind of wacky "feel-goodism," this is the sort of result you can expect.

Love ya, Gary, but sorry.  This one is as much of a blowout as UK vs. UMSL, and you are way, way down on the short end.

0 recs  |  Comment 36 comments |

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are you kidding me???

let’s ask Parrish what he thinks in 3 years when the Wildcats are back to the “elite” level.

by goinss1 on Nov 5, 2008 12:08 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

We never left the elite level

Unlike OSU, our tourney streak is still intact. This stuff never surprises me, I think it’s stupid, but not surprising. We are easily the most hated program in the country in basketball. It’s a product of our success. The networks know it, fans from other teams know it, look at last year. We were horrible most of the year and still had more national tv games than Floriday, the two-time defending champ, because we sell out every game and they can’t even fill up their stands coming off great success. It’s kind of like how everybody hates the Yankees. It’s good to be hated. They can say we haven’t won a championship in ten years and all that, but they know UK will always be a crown jewel. Not saying we are on UNC and Duke’s level right now, but I think we will soon return. Yes our fans are crazy and we better stay that way. Call me when OSU or Texas wins a nat’l title game any time soon.

by daniel81 on Nov 5, 2008 12:26 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

"Most hated"?

I think on a national scale that title goes to Duke.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 5, 2008 1:14 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Maybe...

I live in Marshall County, so I know what it’s like to be hated (that one’s for you Doc).

But being from Southern Illinois originally, I know many people that watch UK games who tune in just to see if UK loses. UK fans do that to Duke games, but I’m not so sure that it is as widespread among other college hoops fans. Many are watching Duke or UNC to see a good coach and a good team.

by racercat98 on Nov 5, 2008 1:53 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Ha!

Good stuff.

And as long as we’re mentioning Duke hate… I’ll throw out this video that I first saw linked on this site over a year ago now.

is decidedly NOT work safe, nor is it for people who do not care for swearing.[/end disclaimer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYOgC2Qbqh4

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 5, 2008 3:09 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Bwah ha ha ha aahhh haaa

Great video! Failed Dukies and soccer moms at 19…yep that’s why they suck!

by bluecrip on Nov 5, 2008 3:24 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

A must see...

at least twice a year. It still kills me.

by racercat98 on Nov 5, 2008 4:15 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Rabidity Has Its Drawbacks

UK should definitely be in Top 5 but in today’s world of agents, short contracts, exposure to 24/7/365 evaluation and criticism, unrealistic expectations, economic pressures, etc., the rabidity of UK fans is not near the total positive it once was and it could be a negative to a coach as described by Parrish. Fortunately, it appears that early in the process Gillispie is a personality that thrives on such demands. In addition I think the decline of UK to a lower position of prestige is indicative of the program’s overall slippage in last few years as reflected in recruiting, rankings, post-season performance, etc.

by Wild Weasel on Nov 5, 2008 1:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

IMHO...

I think that maybe the biggest problem with this article is that the question was about “best places to coach” and he answered it with “best programs”. His criteria here is quite contradictory in that he states many things that would be included in the “best places to coach” answer, but then continues to defend on the basis of “best program”.
If we could seperate the two comparisons, the lists might have mostly the same programs but in a slightly different order. One glaring deficiency that I notice in the argument of " best places to coach" would be stress level. It amazes me that all of these writers love to comment on this category, but can’t ever seem to quantify it so that all comparisons can be equal. Of course equality isn’t really what they are going for here, so that shouldn’t really come as a surprise…should it?

GO BIG BLUE!! Long Live Coach G (so long as he wears KY blue)!!!

by bluebloodtoo on Nov 5, 2008 2:14 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ohhh... one other thing....

I’m just wondering how in the world G. Parrish could think that any school has more resources for it’s beloved basketball program than UK. Can someone please post the athletic budgets for these schools? I’m pretty sure that if Rick Barnes and Billy G had a meal together, Barnes would let Billy G pay…. why don’t we ask Billy G if he thinks he could get more resources at Tex ass or Ohio Slate. Oh why bother, we all know the answer to that!

GO BIG BLUE!! Long Live Coach G (so long as he wears KY blue)!!!

by bluebloodtoo on Nov 5, 2008 2:17 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I'm sorry but...

OSU is the largest university in the country by enrollment – about 2 UK’s. They are very wealthy as well (as is Texas). They both could put up vastly more money than UK for basketball if they wanted. But they don’t want that, that’s party of why they’re not better basketball programs than UK.

by EEWildcat on Nov 5, 2008 7:49 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

NCAA mens BB budget subtotal...

per http://www2.indystar.com/NCAA_financial_reports/revenue_stat/show_field_rank
1. U of L – 18.5M
2. Arizona – 16.9M
3. UNC – 15.2M
4. UK – 13.7M
5. Indiana – 12.5M
 
7. Texas – 11.9M
11. (the) OSU – 11.4M

Hmmm… the statistics don’t lie Gary….

GO BIG BLUE!! Long Live Coach G (so long as he wears KY blue)!!!

by bluebloodtoo on Nov 5, 2008 2:25 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

year?

what year is this for? i only ask because i’m sure UK has been spending more money since Coach Gillispie has arrived with the addition (and frequent use) of a private jet, and other things i’m surely forgetting. the jet just sticks in my mind…

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Nov 5, 2008 2:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

good question...

on the google search results this database had a reference to 2006 and I could not find anything stating otherwise on the database page. I wish I could say for sure, but I can’t. Also, I noticed after posting those numbers that they were strictly revenue numbers. If you go to the linked page and click on the “Expense” tab, you will see the other side of the story including a balance line.
That balance line was quite interesting for OSU… it was about $120,000. Which is quite small when compared to most other schools who have their profit margins listed in the millions. There is something a little fishy there, but most balance sheets are fishy anyway.

GO BIG BLUE!! Long Live Coach G (so long as he wears KY blue)!!!

by bluebloodtoo on Nov 5, 2008 5:55 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Kentucky is basketball

Texas and OSU’s tree doesn’t extend through the game like UK’s. If you love college hoops, you’ve either come through UK, want to be at UK or will never win a nat’l title…see Ricky Barnes…

by daniel81 on Nov 5, 2008 4:13 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Maybe some coaches

Would not feel comfortable with the scrutiny and intense passion of the fan base that UK has. But Coach G has embraced it and loves it…365 days a year as he described the passion for basketball in Kentucky. He loves the game as much as the fans and when one watches him on the sidelines you can see that focus he has on every play.

by kykat51 on Nov 5, 2008 6:32 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

WHY...

… waste an once of time or bandwidth on anything that Parrish writes..?? Makes no sense to me. The guy has had distaste for Kentucky Basketball and it continues… I wish this thread would be taken down and Tru, why would you ever post a link to this kind of idiocy?

Looking forward to the game Friday night..! Also, Nov 18th, UNC… OH BABY!!!!!!

by vinceuk1 on Nov 5, 2008 7:21 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

I respectfully disagree ...

… Parrish has been very fair to UK and UK fans since he began writing for CBS a couple of years ago. He happens to be wrong on this point, but not because of a dislike for UK.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 5, 2008 11:10 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

ok, I'll take it back... if...

…you can show me 1 link where he has written something positive about UK… Just 1… I know I haven’t read one yet, but I am open to the proof.

by vinceuk1 on Nov 6, 2008 12:10 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

here's a couple

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10982653
i like this one beacuse of the comments from vols fans, unc fans, and hoosier fans.

http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10404753

i’m sure there are more recent ones, bu i just googled this instead of going through his archive.

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Nov 6, 2008 1:22 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

As I see it..

Both of those articles were sardonic at best. Look, Parrish may throw UK a bone from time to time, but "most" of his writings are back-handed "Kentucky fans are idiots" slaps in the face. But, that’s just my opinion, and I choose not to read any of his works.

Thank you for the links my friend…

by vinceuk1 on Nov 6, 2008 10:04 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

parrish

while i think he’s mostly pretty fair to UK, he’s not a writer I find myself reading on my own…just whatever links i see on here.

the only writer i completely refuse to read is jeff goodman…in my opinion, he’s never written anything that can’t be considered worthless drivel.

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Nov 6, 2008 10:31 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Parrish is a lot like Gregg Doyel

also at cbs sportsline—I don’t think they’re “against” UK by any means, although they do sometimes write things that seem kind of negative (or at least designed to increase traffic from insult-sensitive Kentucky fans). I think their whole thing is they’re trying to foster a snarky, contrarian kind of vibe over there—hence the snarky contrarian, against-common-sense assersion that Texas and Ohio State are more desirable coaching jobs than Kentucky (or Florida, for that matter). Like anything in a crowded market, sports journalists have to carve out their own niche to be relevant, and I think this is kind of provocative piece fits right in with what they’re going for with the identity they’re going for.

Granted, the list is absurd, and it doesn’t even work by it’s own weird internal logic (as Tru pointed out with Florida’s bizarrely absence)—but I think Parrish MUST have been going for a provocative, attention-getting and not-logical here.

by blue kentucky girl on Nov 6, 2008 12:57 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I have neither the time nor inclination to research Parrish's columns or blog, but ...

… I did an interview with him a couple of months ago - here’s the link - Scroll down toward the bottom of the interview where I ask a couple of UK related questions.

It’s okay if you don’t care for him, but he is not anti-UK.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 6, 2008 5:35 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Awesome rebuttal Tru

Great point about Florida! How can they be rated below Texas and OSU? Ridiculous.

by EEWildcat on Nov 5, 2008 7:45 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah ...

… that sort of shoots his whole argument in the foot all by itself. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 6, 2008 7:34 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

The BIG HAMMER

is what Tru brought when he mentioned Florida!

by -Zoso- on Nov 6, 2008 7:01 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Just remember:

Most MSM rankings of things like these have a curveball or two in them to generate interest and discussion. The Texas and OSU bumps were easy due to recent publicity, but putting them above Kentucky added a hook to get people talking about it.

In a case like this, disagreement is better than agreement. It keeps people around. I’m not saying that’s necessarily what he did, but it smells of bait. One week into the regular season, nobody will really care about this ranking. We’ll have real games to discuss instead.

by Hooper on Nov 6, 2008 11:43 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

It's true ...

… that you never know if that was an attempt to bait readers, or what he really thinks.

Quite honestly, motivation is almost impossible to discern. I sometimes post contrarian viewpoints that might look like an attempt to generate hits and discussion, but I have never actually done it for that reason. I’m not quite willing to impute that motivation to Parrish, although it is certainly possible.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 7, 2008 8:42 AM EST up reply actions   0 recs

I know you haven't.

I tend to think the MSM guys do it less than we tend to accuse them of it, but it’s just something I keep in the back of my head. Every once in a while, it’s clearly the most plausible scenario.

But you’re the basketball guru on this one, not me.

by Hooper on Nov 7, 2008 4:08 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Where is my preview of Oachita Baptist!!!!

We are now 5.5 hours away! I must know what kind of a threat they will pose!!!

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 7, 2008 1:30 PM EST reply actions   0 recs

Ooops... wrong thread... meant to put this in Ken's guard breakdown.

Oh well… this works too.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 7, 2008 1:30 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

It will be coming up around 6:00

I have scheduled it as an open thread.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 7, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Awww... but I'll be away from the office by then

How am I supposed to waste time now??

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 7, 2008 2:27 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

Heh.

Good question … :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 7, 2008 3:42 PM EST up reply actions   0 recs

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