Kentucky Basketball 2008: Looking at "Floor Value"
Whenever I get into a basketball season, I start questioning authority. I usually reconcile myself to dealing with the conventional wisdom, but sometimes I feel unsatisfied with what conventional basketball stats tell us. So I find myself trying to invent new measures to describe trends that I think just might be relevant.
Today, I have invented a new "stat" called "Floor Value." Floor value is a weighted combination of several statistics: Offensive rebounds, turnovers, steals and assists. Why did I do this, you ask? Well, I got to thinking -- what is more valuable, a steal or a turnover? Generally speaking, steals lead to a possession change in which the defense is seriously disadvantaged -- i.e. they are set up for offense, and then possession is changed creating a transition play which favors the team that just got the steal.
Case in point -- on a turnover resulting from a violation, for example a walk, a palm, a double-dribble, 3-seconds, etc., the defense always has a chance to set, forcing the offense into the half court. On steals, the reverse is true -- the defense has to hustle to make a play, making scoring easier for the stealing team.
Additionally, I considered offensive rebounds. For some reason, the fact that the formula for calculating possessions from box scores always bugged me in that they consider an offensive rebound a continuation of the same possession. Now, that does make sense, except when you consider a non-trivial number of OR's occur very near the basket and result in a point-blank score. An offensive rebound, therefore, would seem to increase the chances of a successful possession significantly.
Putting all this together, what I have done is essentially multiply by a fudge factor to each of the statistics where there is added value in whichever direction. In the case of turnovers, I calculated the percentage of turnovers resulting from steals, averaged them, and adjusted the value of turnovers accordingly. This methodology is somewhat arbitrary, but produces an interesting result. What this really is intended to measure is who is doing the "little things" that add significant value to the team effort, but are hard to quantify specifically.
So let's look at my new creation, and see what it tells us:
| Name | OR/40 | Steal/40 | TO/40 | Asst/40 | Floor value |
| Patrick Patterson | 2.44 | 1.83 | 2.14 | 4.58 | 7.32 |
| Perry Stevenson | 4.23 | 1.15 | 1.92 | 2.69 | 6.88 |
| Josh Harrellson | 5.22 | 0 | 0.87 | 1.74 | 6.78 |
| Darius Miller | 3 | 1 | 4 | 3.5 | 3.79 |
| Michael Porter | 1.58 | 1.58 | 5.26 | 5.26 | 3.25 |
| DeAndre Liggins | 0 | 2 | 8 | 8.5 | 2.18 |
| Ramon Harris | 2.14 | 1.79 | 4.64 | 1.43 | 1.01 |
| Jodie Meeks | 0.57 | 1.43 | 4.86 | 1.71 | -1.2 |
| A.J. Stewart | 3.33 | 3.33 | 13.33 | 0 | -6.7 |
What I have done here is calculated each statistic as a "per forty-minutes" stat and multiplied each value-variable statistic such as steals, turnovers and offensive rebounds by a fudge factor. Assists are then simply added to the resultant calculation (turnovers are obviously negative) and the result is the floor value derivative statistic.
What is interesting about this is that big men have an advantage in this statistic, primarily because of two factors: They handle the ball less and are therefore less susceptible to turnovers, and they get more offensive rebounds. I have also discarded any players who have less than 10 minutes played so far in the season.
What I wonder is why players like Meeks and Liggins are so low down the totem pole. In Jodie's case, it is two major issues -- he has little value as an offensive rebounder and he turns the ball over a lot. Worse, Jodie is not a particularly effective defender when it comes to steals -- Michael Porter, DeAndre Liggins and Patrick Patterson all get more steals than Meeks. Meeks' overall floor value is far and away the lowest of any starter, or for that matter, significant bench player. I actually think this is a problem that needs some attention.
As far as Liggins is concerned, he has no offensive rebounds at all this year, which is not really a bad thing for a point guard -- his main responsibility is to provide defensive balance, not rebound. Liggins' main fault is an inordinately high number of turnovers, by far the most on the team other than A.J. Stewart, who we will discuss later.
Patrick Patterson's stats are interesting in that his assists vs. turnovers is extremely high, the highest on the team. Of course, we all knew that Pat was a very good passing big man, but just how good is illustrated here. Where Pat is not getting the job done is on the offensive glass. Perry Stevenson, though, is picking up that slack, almost doubling Patterson's OR output.
Josh Harrellson is a bit of a surprise in the higher reaches of this stat, but he is there primarily because he has turned the ball over so little and leads the team in offensive rebounds/40 minutes played. It is somewhat significant, though, that Harrellson has the lowest minutes played of anyone considered other than Stewart, and most of his time has been garnered against inferior competition.
Another surprise is how high Darius Miller is. He is contributing more overall in these "hustle" stats than any other non-front court player, and now we see why Gillispie has been so high on him.
Michael Porter also surprises a bit -- he is just below Miller on the wing-player totem pole. So while we have all been hard on Porter, in reality, he has only truly struggled in the North Carolina game. The other side of that coin is that Porter has yet to prove himself against high D-I competition.
A.J. Stewart is last on the list, and the reason is obvious -- turnovers. A.J. has an unacceptably high turnover rate per 40 minutes, and if he expects to get on the floor, he is going to have to fix this broken statistic. According to my measurement, both he and Meeks subtract value with their floor game, but Meeks offsets that by scoring lots of points. A.J. does not. To be fair, though, A.J. barely makes the cut minutes-wise with 12, and his relatively small number of stats are exacerbated because of that. In other words, it looks worse than it probably is.
So there we go. I have invented a stat that shows ... well who knows what, but it does seem to have some significance in the areas I consider important. Patrick Patterson and Perry Stevenson have inarguably played very good basketball. Ramon Harris winds up farther down this list than I expected, but that is because of his high turnover rate and relatively few assists. Harris does many good things that don't show up in the stat sheet, like forcing turnovers and getting deflections. My perception is that he does these things better than anyone, but there is no way for a layman like me to measure those intangibles. Jodie Meeks is offsetting some of his great work scoring by doing the little things poorly. Those are the extremes, and everyone else is somewhere in-between.
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I have said it before
all the guards need to cut down on their turnovers. Liggons in particular has had some long dangerous passes on numberous occations that are just plain unnecessary. However I believe Liggons needs to continue to get plenty of playing time while they are coaching him on how to improve.
Darius Miller definitely plays more like an upperclassman than a freshman which is what they said about Patrick Patterson last year.
Floor value
not so sure about this one simply becuase steals aren’t the be all end all of defense.
AI usually has averages quite a few steals per game but that doesnt make him a good defender. It makes him a defender that likes to gamble in the passing lanes and gets burned quite a bit making his bigs behind slide over to help and causing the defense to become off balance.
I like the idea behind floor value and think that the offensive rebound and turnover categories are quite telling but there is just no way to quantify good defense with anything other than steals and it IMO is not a very realistic picture of someone’s value on the defensive side of the ball. Tay doesnt pick a lot of pockets but he does play extremely good deny a good shot defense.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
That's true ...
… But I didn’t intend it to be. There are also blocks, which could be added in as a stat. The thing about blocks is that their value is harder to estimate.
What this is supposed to demonstrate isn’t so much the absolute value of a person’s presence on the floor, but approximate how well they are doing things other than scoring in a single statistic weighted to value things that either help or hurt scoring. It isn’t intended to measure things like defense or intangibles such as leadership, deflections, “hustle” (for example, it is valuable for a player to get back quickly in transition and force an offensive reset), etc.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Stats
Interesting concept for “Floor Value”.
On the topic of stats, I thought it was interesting that in the Davidson game last night Curry(the leading scorer in the nation) scored 0 in a 30 point blowout of Loyola. They played a triangle and two with a double team on Curry. He pretty much just stayed out of the way while his teammates played 4 on 3. The stats can’t really show that.
Exactly.
There are so many things that stats don’t show. That’s why we watch the games.:-)
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Floor value...
…seems a misnomer for this statistic. To really evaluate a player’s value of being on the floor you would need to add DR/40 and points/40. Moreover, the assists per 40 and turnovers per 40 normally only tell you how much a player is handling the bad. A statistic that better evaluates a player’s overall effectiveness at ballhandling is TO/Asst ratio. So if you subtracted the TO/40 and Asst/40 and simply added the TO/Asst ratio. I image a very different picture of the true value of these players would emerge if you did these things.
Del Tha Funky Homosapien
formerly known as senowen
by Mr. Bob Dobalina on Nov 26, 2008 3:28 PM EST reply actions
I didn't ...
… mean it to indicate the value of the player just for being on the floor, so perhaps you are right. A better analog for this statistic are “things that lead to or detract from scoring.” There is a whole other set of things that could be looked at were they kept, such as deflections, leadership, how fast they get back in transition, how many times they cause a fast-break reset or take a charge.
This wasn’t meant to be a catch all, and no statistics ever accurately describe game play. I wasn’t trying to re-invent the wheel, just come up with a single stat that took many things into account, not everything. :-)
Assist/Turnover ratio tells you plenty about ball handling, but that isn’t what I was trying to capture. I was trying to capture the things that players do to contribute to scoring or the things they do that have a negative impact on scoring. Besides, A/TO is in fact captured inside this statistic (it doesn’t vary because it is a ratio), so I don’t really know exactly where you are trying to go here.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
I see...
…where you are going with this now. In that case I think you are to something. I still think having assists and turnovers as separate quantifiers may be over-weighing them. Using just the the A/TO ratio as one quantifier might help the skewing that seems to favor the post players.
Del Tha Funky Homosapien
formerly known as senowen
by Mr. Bob Dobalina on Nov 27, 2008 1:01 AM EST up reply actions
The fact that
Porter shows a higher floor value than Meeks reveals this “Floor Value” measure is meaningless. Porter’s own mom would admit as much.
Lots of reasons this indicator is not meaningful; sample size is small so outliers have a big impact, the factor of playing time and job assignment. Meeks is not asked to crash the boards. I wouldn’t want Meeks crashing the boards. Anyway, it is interesting to explore stats and sometimes they are relevant and other times not.
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Nov 26, 2008 4:50 PM EST reply actions
I disagree ...
… for several reasons.
In the first place, as I explained above, this measure wasn’t meant to approximate the value of the player to the team.
In the second place, it is inarguable that Porter is doing some things better than Meeks. That is beyond dispute.
Third, keep in mind that while scoring is important, it isn’t the only important thing in team basketball. There is no good reason why Meeks should not be crashing the boards whatsoever. It is the job of the point guard to maintain defensive balance, as I discussed before, and Meeks is capable of getting more offensive rebounds than the paltry .57/40 minutes played. Joe Crawford averaged over twice that many per 40 minutes last year, and so did Derrick Jasper.
Furthermore, Meeks A/TO is abysmal — much worse than Porter’s or even Liggins and Darius Miller, both freshman. That fact is indisputably hurting the basketball team, and Meeks’ ballhandling is having a negative impact on team performance.
Now, your point about sample size is not correct, since 100% of the minutes played for each player are accounted for. This is the statistical picture as it is right now, i.e. a snapshot in time. It will obviously change over time, and it will likely (but not necessarily) change more quickly and by a greater magnitude for the guys who have played the least minutes so far (i.e. Stewart and Harrellson. The sample size argument would be applicable only if I had accounted for only a portion of the minutes played for each player (i.e., a "sample"). Note also that we aren’t drawing correlations here, or trying to prove that one player is better than another. This is just a measure of actual performance over the four games UK has played so far.
We would expect (and even hope) for many of these stats to improve as the players become more comfortable, have more experience in the college game, etc. But that fact does not invalidate the existing statistics, or their derivatives.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
Interesting..
you are arguing points I never even mentioned.
Anyway, I don’t expect you to be well educated in statisitcs but I will make this simple so you can understand it. With so few games under each players belt, any abboration will be magnified when reporting statisitcs. As more games are played the sample size increases and there is a natural smoothing function. Maybe this will help, as you increase from a small sample size, the margin of error will decline.
The more Meeks has the ball in his hands and the less Porter has it in his is all the better; so much for “floor value.”
by MyBloodRunsBlue on Nov 27, 2008 3:08 PM EST up reply actions
Thanks...
For being so exquisitely condescending … And making the exact same point as I just did whip failing to acnowledge your own error.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
On the contrary
Meeks has indeed been asked to crash the boards by the head man himself in a public forum.
DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!
Additional Stats
cthorn touched on a nice point I thought. Some things just do not show up in the stat sheet. I like the discussion the Floor Value concept brings up but to expound: In order to truly measure the value of a player being on the floor it would be necessary to mathematically devise a way to assign values to every instance when a defensive rotation was missed or someone did not get out on a 3 point shooter or someone was not occupying the proper space on offense, or someone took a bad shot. The things that dictate winning are making the right plays. Blocking out is sometimes more valuable than a rebound. Taking the charge when that is available, blocking the shot when available but standing your ground and getting position when that is appropriate. Also points need to be assigned to drives into the paint that can often result in someone being open. Moving offensively without the ball- valuable. The list is almost endless. With all that said, I do understand that the Floor Value system is just a course measure and I find it interesting and with merit. I would be curious to see how it would come out applied to another team for a baseline comparison. Maybe the 98 Wildcats.
Kansas State Breakdown
There is a good breakdown of the Kansas State Wildcats on straitpinkie.com. They usually breakdown the Cats’ opponent pretty good. I would advise checking it.
I Have A Good Friend On K-St Staff
They haven’t played “anybody” yet but they are a pretty good team. He thinks Meeks is the key to W or L.
by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 27, 2008 8:04 AM EST up reply actions
Hmm...
… I think it is guard play in general. If we do a good job defending the three, keep turnovers under twenty and feed the post, I think we will be right there.
A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan
The Film Doesn't Lie
My friend watched a lot of UK film. He noted that guard play is Make Or Break for UK. The K-St guards are quick and good defenders as well as scorers.
by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 27, 2008 9:12 AM EST up reply actions
I'm lovin' the thinking around this...
As a Bull’s fan, a stat that they use or at least track (although they don’t really publish) is around points scored v. points allowed. They track what each player scores and then how many points their defended opponent scores. Up here the average fan often complains that Ben Gordon doesn’t play enough…but if you know this statistic, it is known that the player he defends scores more than he does (it doesn’t help that he is offensive minded and he is only 6’2"…and that height is debateable). It would be interesting to see how Meeks would look using this stat. Obviously, this stat is pointless when a team uses the zone, but I don’t think BCG uses a zone much anyhow.
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
One more thing...
Doesn’t Pitino track defensive touches?
'..when they bring a knife, you bring a gun...that's the Chicago way..'
yeah, hozeking, I thought of that too when I saw this post--
Pitino’s staff used to track “deflections,” right? Defensive rebounds, steals or near-steals, anytime a player got their hands on the ball on the defensive end. He may still do that for all I know, but when he was at Kentucky I’m sure I remember talk of that. It’s a kinda similar concept to this.
by blue kentucky girl on Nov 27, 2008 10:57 AM EST up reply actions

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