VMI 111 Kentucky 103: Post Mortem -- Two Years In a Row

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 14, 2008 9:52 PM EST in Basketball Comment 98 comments

First things first. Congratulations to the VMI Keydets. They deserved to win this game, and even though they have had my respect from the beginning, they have significantly more now. Well done.

I don't know what to think about this. Yes, I know I predicted much of what happened, but I never ever believed that VMI could possibly beat Kentucky in Rupp Arena. I said so in the game thread, and I was very much mistaken.

This is just like the Gardener-Webb loss, and is quite frankly inexcusable. I know this is a young team, and I know VMI plays a frenetic style that is capable of pulling big upsets when everything falls. But this was a perfect example of how not to play basketball against a high-possession team.

What went wrong? Well, the list is long, but not particularly distinguished:

Turnovers -- I warned that turnovers would be a problem if they happened, and they really happened in spades.
Giving an inferior team hope -- This is the one thing that the Kentuckys and the Dukes and so forth cannot do -- give an inferior team hope. It makes them better than they are.
Play the game the opponent wants you to play -- I remember thousands of times when UK was the up-tempo team and the opponent tried to do what we do, it went very badly for them. History has a way of repeating itself.
Offensive rebounds -- we allowed far to many, and I have no idea a this point how many that was. UK had a chance to win this game, and offensive rebounds essentially cost the 'Cats the opportunity.
General pathetic play -- This is a catch-all term for failure to defend, failure to rebound, failure to make free throws, failure to do anything useful. Kentucky excelled in GPP tonight, and even though I was convinced that the Keydets could not beat us in a 40 minute game, once again I have been proven rather less than omnipotent.

I want to criticize Gillispie pretty badly right now. It isn't really acceptable for a Kentucky coach to tank a game like this in his second year. He gets a pass in his first year, but this is not something that I can excuse, especially not at this instant. I don't know what he told the team, but I do know this -- telling them to slow down the game and avoid the track meet we saw should have been #1 on his list. Either it wasn't, or nobody on the team thinks enough of him to listen. Either way, it is an epic failure of coaching. I know some of you will want to make excuses for him -- resist the urge -- he gets paid to take the heat, and he has some coming here.

I know some of you who don't hang here a lot will be tempted to post hostile, angry, profane stuff. Don't. I will either delete it or ban you outright, depending on my mood, and right now, my mood is foul. So take a deep breath, compose yourself, and make good, quality arguments and respect your fellow members. If you have had a few too many, take my advice -- type an angry, profanity-laced tirade, and delete it before posting. You'll feel better for having written it and better for having deleted it.

I would like to tell you all to take heart, and in reality, this was a bizarre game played in a way we will never likely see again this year or any other (unless we want to make it an annual thing to play the Keydets). Yes, they were beyond hot, and yes, the stars were perfectly aligned. But this was a black eye for the program, and I don't think we have enough makeup to hide the damage. So hang your head in shame and believe me when I say that it is absolutely warranted. Tomorrow, perhaps, we will wake up and find that Armageddon has not yet come, even though at this precise moment, I would welcome it. On the off chance the world does not end tonight, I may have more to say tomorrow.

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Can’t argue with anything you said — it pretty well sums up my feelings right now. Unfortunately, I don’t think this one will feel any better tomorrow…

by mhl6493 on Nov 14, 2008 10:10 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Good analysis

Good analysis of a very bad performance. As a UK fan I am very displeased in the teaching ability of Mr. Gillispie. It would be interesting to see how he handled these types of situations at A&M.

by shview on Nov 14, 2008 10:12 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I do not agree that this was "a very bad performance."

It was very disappointing, but one cannot let emotion trump intellect.

If you told me that the other team would score 40+ points from behind the three point arc, that we would commit 27 turnovers, and that Pat Patterson would have attempted only 4 shots all night, there is no way I would believe that the game would be tied at 97, or in doubt with less than a minute to play. But it was. And by golly, I know at least one fan who was excited.

What I saw was a very well-coached VMI team of upperclassmen shoot a percentage from 3 that was better than any team in the country averaged last year, while at the same time flustering our younger hodge-podge of a team into 27 turnovers in the first game of the season, facing a strange if not freakish style of play that they have never seen before, and likely will never face again. It did not help that we were ice cold from three ourselves (something that had very little to do with anything VMI did on defense).

It happens.

And by the way, our hodge-podge of a team just scored 103 points in its first official game in Rupp (as a team). I am aware that the Keydets do not concentrate on defense, but no team scores 100 points without doing something right, especially when it is cold from three. Good things did happen — we actually had our way with them in the half court offense (or what passed for the half-court offense).

I did not see “very bad” defense. Yes, I saw many mistakes, but if the opposing player is going to dribble down the floor and pull up at 25 feet and hit nothing but net (which I DID see, unfortunately), the fact of the matter is that there is not a whole lot you can do about it other than hack him, or hope his luck eventually runs out. There is such a thing in this world as a great shooter, and every now and then a coach gets a bunch of them on one team, especially when (as is the case with VMI) that is what he recruits primarily for.

I truly did not see their excellent shooting percentage as a function of our bad defense. It was primarily a function of the fact that they are great shooters, pure and simple, and to beat a great shooting team when it is hot and everybody is hitting, you have to protect the ball and hit free throws — we did neither of those things in this particluar game. It is hardly the end of the world, nor is it a harbinger of disaster for the year.

I do not agree with those who say that BCG was “hiding his emotions” at the press conference. The bottom line is that he is simply not as disturbed by early or even mid-season losses provided he thinks his teams are on the right path to improve. In all of his public appearances and interviews I have never once heard him talk about “winning games” as a goal in itself. He speaks always about “winning championships.” That means peaking at the right time (something he also speaks of often), and using the first of the year to prepare for the final portion. After GW and Vandy last year he basically adopted the position that “this was just one loss,” and “we’ll get better.” And we did then, and we will this year.

I have the strong sense that BCG looks at every game not as an opportunity to get another win at all costs, but rather as an opportunity to try to coach his team into being able to play the next game better, to their fullest potential. Sometimes that means awkward losses, but if your coach knows what he’s doing (and BCG certainly does), it also means that when the nets are being cut down, your team has the highest possible chance of being the guys standing on the ladders. That is the kind of coach I want.

Yes, certainly Coach could have instituted a different game plan to try to match up better with the unique and somewhat gimmicky style VMI implements, but he probably thought it would be a waste, with Chapel Hill coming in less than a week. When are we going to see another VMI this year? We’re not, and if we do, I doubt we’ll shoot 22% from three to their 45%.

Put this game behind us, and let’s go to Chapel Hill and take on the only unanimous pre-season Number 1 team ever, with the reigning National Player of the Year and five starters returning from a Final Four year.

In their house.

Go ’Cats.

by Ken Pomeroy on Nov 16, 2008 4:33 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I agree with much of what you write ...

… I wrote on another thread that early season losses have never bothered me, especially since they started playing games that count in mid-November.

I also agree with your assessement of Gillispie and his emotions. I know UK fans are upset when the ‘Cats lose, regardless of what the calendar says, but I don’t see this type of loss, to this type of team, as being something for Gillispie to rage about.

Regardless of UK’s less than stellar defense, and VMI’s being unconscious from the outside, and Patterson only taking four shots, and Clyde playing only seven players (plus Harrellson for 6 minutes) if UK takes care of the basketball the ’Cats win going away.

UNC Tuesday should be interesting, to say the least, but even if UK loses by 20, I won’t be too upset or change how I feel about how this season will unfold (I think UK will be very good with time).

by Ken Howlett on Nov 16, 2008 5:50 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It's probably a foolish thought, but I do wonder what would have happened ...

if Coach had tried (even for three or four minutes) to fashion a quicker, smaller, sharp-shooting line-up that more nearly matched what VMI had on the floor. I don’t know that we could have beaten them at their own game just because of our allegedly superior athletes and deeper bench (Tru has already pronounced his opinion that this would have been foolhardy) , but I am among those who wish it had been given a few minutes of effort — especially when it began to appear that outrebounding them and scoring 2’s at will wasn’t necessarily going to be enough.

I can’t help but wonder what might have happened if Coach had put guys like Slone and Krebs into the game with Meeks and Harrellson and told them all to bomb away.

by Ken Pomeroy on Nov 16, 2008 8:42 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought the same thing ...

… it certainly would have been entertaining.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 18, 2008 7:39 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, bravo, Ken P!

I don’t agree with much of what you wrote, I agree with each and every incredibly well-written word of it!

I have been trying to make sense of all the thoughts running through my head about the VMI loss for the last two days — but damn was it ever hard to get all my emotions in check and just put together something even remotely resembling a coherent post. I can confidently say that you have articulated my thoughts in this post of yours so very well. Thanks. ; )

btw, I agree with you too Ken H, but then again, I almost always agree with you. : )

GO ’CATS!!!!

by BigSkyCat on Nov 16, 2008 6:40 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I need to intoduce you to my wife. If you always agree with me, she would find you befuddling :)

by Ken Howlett on Nov 18, 2008 7:40 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

What I would disagree with ...

Is a couple of things.

I truly did not see their excellent shooting percentage as a function of our bad defense.

“Bad” is probably not a great description. Our defensive effort was pretty good, what was bad was our execution. It’s important to separate the two. A lackadaisical effort is certainly worthy of condemnation, but poor execution is generally a combination of poor preparation and/or a lack of understanding of the plan, which goes back to the coaching staff.

In all fairness, the Keydets shot above their heads. It happens. If they had shot their normal 3-point percentage, as I said above, we would have won. If UK had shot a normal 3-point percentage, we would have won. It was the combination of a very high % by VMI and a very low % by UK that made their victory possible.

In spite of all this, UK could have won the game in the end if Meeks hadn’t directly disobeyed Gillispie’s instructions and left his man wide open for a three, which he made. For some reason, the coach just didn’t get through to his charges on this one, and it cost us the game.

I do not agree with those who say that BCG was "hiding his emotions" at the press conference. The bottom line is that he is simply not as disturbed by early or even mid-season losses provided he thinks his teams are on the right path to improve. In all of his public appearances and interviews I have never once heard him talk about "winning games" as a goal in itself.

I didn’t see his press conference, but I would disagree with this. There is no reason for him to talk about “winning games,” as this is understood. We all hide emotions, and Gillispie is no different — if he wasn’t embarrassed by this loss, we have the wrong coach, in my opinion.

Yes, certainly Coach could have instituted a different game plan to try to match up better with the unique and somewhat gimmicky style VMI implements, but he probably thought it would be a waste, with Chapel Hill coming in less than a week. When are we going to see another VMI this year? We’re not, and if we do, I doubt we’ll shoot 22% from three to their 45%.

I don’t think the plan was the problem, but the execution of it. Gillispie is not going to go zone or something just because a team plays a style that makes our normal defense tricker. Kentucky doesn’t practice a zone defense, and I agree that Gillispie shouldn’t be designing exotic defenses for unconventional offenses. What went wrong here was a failure to execute on defense and a failure to control the tempo. You can play fast without playing wild, frenetic offense like we did the other night. Long, diagonal cross-court passes getting picked and general craziness. That was simply a lack of discipline on the part of a young team.

We have no choice but to move on, and I’m sure the team will learn from this. I expect us to do much better against more conventional teams, and UNC certainly is one.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 16, 2008 7:16 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh,

I definitely think Coach Gillispie hides his emotions at times, but I really didn’t feel that THIS was one of those times.

From watching the press conference (a link), I didn’t get the sense from him that he was hiding anything at all this time. Sure, BCG had the Vandy-in-Nashville post-game press conference "smirk" (I’m certainly not an expert at reading people but to me that "smirk" is indeed a tell-tale sign that he is indeed hiding something) at times during the VMI post game press conference, but not throughout the entire 11 minutes of this press conference.

I’m not sure what some (I’m not exactly saying you, Tru, but some others have mentioned the emotions in other threads) would have him do? Cry? Scream? Throw things? What? To me, press conferences are not the time to go all crazy-football-coach-from-OSU (sorry, I forget his name) and behave like an emotional wreck or completely fall apart. That kind of behavior at a press conference isn’t exactly going to instill confidence in his players and quite frankly isn’t what I want to see from my head coach at a press conference. Sure, I do want to know that he is disappointed with the outcome of an L, but he did say that he "didn’t like gettin’ whipped too much" and that is quite good enough for me right now.

by BigSkyCat on Nov 16, 2008 9:29 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I'M A MAN!!

I’M FORTY! COME AFTER ME! I’M A MAN…I’M FORTY!

The OSU coach is Mike Gundy…I just watched that clip again. It made me smile.

the rant: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoMmbUmKN0E

the rant as a Coors commercial…this was pretty funny: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyTQUWEKx0o

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Nov 17, 2008 12:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I ...

… for one, am thankful he controls his emotions.

Very thankful. As to why, see UKWildCatFanatic’s comments just below.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 17, 2008 9:04 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kudos

This back-and-forth between Tru and the Kens (“Ken squared”?) is great stuff. I was tempted to write some of my thoughts in a fanpost after the game, but when these guys say it so much better, I’m almost embarrassed to put my stuff out there. I sure do appreciate this kind of balanced analysis after a loss; it keeps me from being in such a bad mood like I used to pre-ASOB.

On to Chapel Hill, where last time I checked, the score was 0-0. Go Cats!

by Acdixon on Nov 16, 2008 10:11 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

National champs...

VMI beats ANY ONE in the country tonite and if they are indeed that great of a 3pt shooting team, they will be national champs…and no i HAVE NOT been drinking.

" I believe in pipedreams"

by Magnoliacat on Nov 14, 2008 10:19 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I believe you. :-)

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 14, 2008 10:22 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

post game show does not help.BG says we have to play tougher.Excuse me,but we had more talent,deeper bench,and HUGE homecourt advantage.We lost to a much inferior team,and had no answer to wide open 3’s and uncontested layups.Gardner -Webb part deux.

by -Zoso- on Nov 14, 2008 10:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

I would be careful about referencing as a "much inferior team" anybody who consistently shoots 45% from three.

by Ken Pomeroy on Nov 16, 2008 4:34 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Heh.

True. Maybe they were athletically inferior and individually less skilled, but as a team, they were the best one on the floor Friday night.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 16, 2008 7:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes inferior

VMI ranked 277 by Sagarin coming into the game.Here is a disturbing number.UK basketball budget, #1 in the nation 9.2 million per year.VMI ranks #339 at 99,000 per year(per KSR,take it for what it’s worth).This loss was the result of poor guard play,being outhustled,and poor coaching(lack of preparation,inability to execute,or make defensive adjustments).I give VMI 100% credit,they did not “sneak” a win,they flat out beat our ass.

by -Zoso- on Nov 17, 2008 6:34 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Actually UK won the offensive rebounding battle 19-11

by Ken Howlett on Nov 14, 2008 10:30 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

And

this ius a team of midgets.

by -Zoso- on Nov 14, 2008 10:31 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Why they lost ...

… is actually quite simple — VMI 14-31 threes, UK 3-16 threes

VMI – 14 turnovers, UK- 25 turnovers

Both teams took 72 shots.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 14, 2008 10:33 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Porter v. Liggins

Porter played 18 dreadful minutes= 5 to’s and 1 assist

Liggins played 27 slightly less dreadful minutes = 7 turnovers and 5 assists

Where’s that Pomeroy when you need him?

by Ken Howlett on Nov 14, 2008 10:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My boy stunck up the joint.

by Ken Pomeroy on Nov 16, 2008 4:35 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Hopefully that was first game jitters, and playing against an 'unusual' opponent.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 16, 2008 5:38 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He will ...

… have better days. It happens. But he does need to be more confident in his ballhandling. That’s what’s costing him.

Bringing the ball up the floor against pressure requires a cool head and confidence in your teammates as well as yourself. Porter lacks confidence in his ability to handle the ball against pressure, and if he ever wants to reach his potential, he needs to trust his ability.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 16, 2008 7:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's the mark of a good commenter

I know Ken P is a lot higher on Porter than some of the rest of us, but at least he can admit when the guy has an off game. In the exhibition games, I actually started watching Porter closer thanks to Ken’s comments, and I’ve got to admit that he’s better than I gave him credit for initially. I still think speedy guards are going to be a real problem for him, but by the time we’re seeing those on a consistent basis, I expect Liggins to be able to come in and even the odds.

Ken may make a Porter-believer out of me yet! :)

by Acdixon on Nov 16, 2008 10:15 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

12 turnovers out of the Point Guard slot in 35 minutes of play is a huge chunk of our problem right there.

As with the previous game, the turnovers came fast and furious early in the game (16 in the first half), then moderated as the boys got settled (9 in second half — still too many, but again, VMI is among the tops in the nation perrennially in steals, and there will be more TO’s in a faster paced game, just because of the additional trips up and down the floor).

There were some crazy bad passes that I hope never to see again.

by Ken Pomeroy on Nov 16, 2008 9:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Amen.

I do think that will be addressed. I pray …

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 17, 2008 9:05 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

So

this team was sub .500 in joke league conference play.There are no excuses for this loss.

by -Zoso- on Nov 14, 2008 10:37 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

kick porter off

porter is horrible. dont ever defend that pathetic excuse for a basketball player again. he is the worst point guard ive seen in uk history. it is his fault we lost this game. if liggins had been in the game i feel like we could have pulled off a full comeback which is pathetic that we had to comeback in the first place. im so pissed off. Call me crazy but i have a feeling we going to make some noise in chapel hill. we have sooo much talent and i think this loss will really fire up everybody and put up a good game against the heels. oh and it doesent hurt that hansbrough might not play and if he does, not at 100%. anyways i think im going to figure out if its possible to kick both porter and lones sieber off their respective teams

by hummer11092 on Nov 14, 2008 11:00 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Sure you're pissed,

and you’re probably one of the fans heckling our own players from the stands too.

by BigBlue87 on Nov 15, 2008 1:11 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

fine piece of analysis

it’s absolutely porter’s fault that we gave up 111 points and lost the game, especially in light of everyone else playing lights out.

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Nov 15, 2008 1:47 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

LOL!

by Ken Howlett on Nov 15, 2008 3:12 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

not the worst

he isnt really a point guard either. Thats part of his problem.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Nov 14, 2008 11:03 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Time Out

After we got the lead late in a fast-paced game, did UK’s coach call time out to instruct his team on game management? If he did, I missed it.

I though Meeks & Stevenson played like crazy the whole game. Harris really came on at the end.

Patterson seemed to be more interested in displaying his new hair-do than in playing basketball. That’s what happens to sophomores who had really go freshman years.

The VMI coach had a game plan, and his players executed it. Our coach did not have a game plan. Our players improvised on the court with no help from the coach.

At the end of the game, when our players needed guidance and focus, did our coach call a time out? I don’t think so.

What is he going to do against North Carolina?

by Fortunatus on Nov 14, 2008 11:07 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Gillispie

Sadly, the comments you are making about Gillispie’s lack of coaching are the exact same comments we had at this same time last year.

Its amazing to me. Is this really the same guy who won SEC coach of the year? Is this the same guy that I thought performed one of the best coaching jobs I’d ever seen pulling off the mid-season turnaround?

I’m stunned.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 9:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't Overlook The Loss Of 2 Senior Guards

Bradley and Crawford are missed.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 9:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Very much so

But that doesn’t excuse an apparent lack of coaching last night.

As noted, either Gillispie didn’t tell them to slow the game down or the team didn’t listen… either one is a failure of coaching that is unacceptable at this point.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 10:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

He's Still Learning (Too)

He’s only in his 7th year as head coach. It’s not easy.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 10:37 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha!

Forty defends Gillispie from my unjust criticism!

Did you ever think you’d see the day!!??!!

Thanks for keeping things in perspective. I still think there were some obvious adjustments that could have and should have been made last night.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 10:58 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

It's Just 1 Game

As Jay Bilas said (back in 2007), UK may be getting a better recruiter (as its new caoch) but not necessarily a BETTER coach.

Gillispie is a promising young coach who is still learning.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 11:14 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

3-Point Shooting

VMI shot incredibly accurately from 3-point range largely because of horrendous defense on our part. Anyone who acts like they out-performed from long-range didn’t read any scouting reports. The perimeter defense was atrocious against a team known for 3-point shooting. THAT is why they hit so many, not because the stars are aligned or any other rationalizations.

by BBallSophist on Nov 14, 2008 11:21 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Open 3's all night

Whit the ability, if needed to pack our middle with Pat, P-Steve and Josh there is no reason to not extend out and MAKE them drive and take on that tall group.

I have a 3 year old girl with strep so I could not watch the whole thing but every chance I had to catch a bit of the game all I saw was THEM all alone for open 3’s and THEM over playing the lanes and getting TO after TO.

When we should have forced them out of their tempo, we decided to run full court with a team that runs 3/4 of the court (base line to 3 point line)

I don;t know what to think other than going and checking on the girl and letting other real life issues not let me get too upset right now.

2 positives to take away and that is all. Meeks 39 and UK 103 total. The other team had 111 but I am still taking away the fact that we rang the 100 bell again. The great BCG D needs to show up and that 103 gets nasty for a few teams down the road.

Changing how you think will change what you think.

by wilson452 on Nov 14, 2008 11:40 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Different perspective

I know I’m in the minority(by a lot), but early season losses don’t really bother me, especially when they started playing games that count less than a month after the start of practice.

Even considering the open shots allowed, if UK doesn’t turn the ball over, they win the game rather easily. Gillispie probably should have tried to slow the pace (I would have), but it doesn’t really bother me that he didn’t.

I’m not trying to make anyone feel as I do, but I can’t seem to muster outrage.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 14, 2008 11:58 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Missed assignments

Billy and the team need to go back to boot camp. This game was ridiculous from the start. No defense? Coach does get paid the big bucks and he said in his post game that this was his fault. Well, that’s nice but WHAT was his fault? Did he not see what the Keydets were doing? Did he not tell the players what to do? I didn’t get to see the game but listening to it it sounded like the biggest deficiency was their defense on the perimeter and giving the ball up to the other team.

I applaud Coach for scheduling such a tough team early on (senior laden, high scoring, frenetic style of play) but I don’t understand how the team got out of position so often. The late run was expected once they dug themselves in a hole but a twenty point spot is inexcusable. I could have seen VMI getting a ten to twelve point spot but twenty is suicide.

It’s a tough loss especially when you expect to win but it’s early and not gonna kill us in the long run. I hope this leaves an aspirin taste in the teams mouth. They have got to realize that scouting and execution are vital. Sure it’s great to have the talent and height and hustle but if you don’t understand your opponent then you have only luck as your ally in defeating them. Luck doesn’t always show up as we all are aware.

I am not outraged. Disappointed, yes. I still expect UK to beat UNC next week, but I am nonplussed at the idea.

by bluecrip on Nov 15, 2008 12:18 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

You need to quit drinking

No way we go into Chapel Hill and win. I’d be surprised if it’s even close – should be MUCH worse than the Indiana beat down last year. UNC does everything VMI did, only much, much better. This is gonna be ugly.

C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!

by NYCCats on Nov 15, 2008 8:53 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The road diverges ...

Kentucky can take the road of hard work and prep, and come out of this the stronger for it, or they can go the way that UT’s football team went after the UCLA loss, and slowly sink into the tarpit of obscurity. That’ll be the thing to watch this coming week. Fortunately, the first 10 games of the season are effectively meaningless, so long as you don’t completely eliminate yourself from the NCAA tourney.

Tough one tonight for you, but I’m sure that this will be the low point for your season. At least it’s out of the way, right? :-D

by hooper on Nov 15, 2008 12:26 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

It did come tonight, and the world did end

It’s hard to find any humor in such a horrible defeat, but I thank you for the comment below. It sums all of it up so very succinctly.

“Tomorrow, perhaps, we will wake up and find that Armageddon has not yet come, even though at this precise moment, I would welcome it. On the off chance the world does not end tonight, I may have more to say tomorrow.”

I don’t expect to wake up in the morning, or at least I don’t want to.

by longtime on Nov 15, 2008 12:54 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

no...

no ur wrong i dont heckle the players from the stands, im just saying hes not ky material and thats why im saying it here, not to his face, bc yea that would be messed up.

by hummer11092 on Nov 15, 2008 2:01 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

NO WAY!!!!!!!!

No way, at no time, on no planet big and blue is this despicable loss in any way, shape or form acceptable.
Our athletes are being overtrained and unnecessarily fatigued by our clueless Head Coach.
You didn’t believe me last season, you might not believe me now, but if you witnessed this inexcusable debacle in our coveted home arena, you might want to consider that a team that BCG proclaimed in exceptional physical condition just two days ago does NOT need a rigorous full-speed brutal practice on the day of or the day before a game that counts toward our all-time lead in total victories.
You saw a bunch of elite athletes who had no focus. No ability to find the correct spots on the court. No intensity on defense and none whatsoever on rebounding. No leadership, no direction and turnovers that HS teams don’t make.
Do you think this is all just a coincidence?
Have you ever been an elite athlete?
Do you comprehend the concept of rest and recovery following intense physical exertion?
I applaud you if you do.
I submit that the Head Coach of The University of Kentucky has less than no clue about the fact that overtraining your young men will absolutely and inevitably lead directly to the dismal results that now include: Gardner-Webb, Houston, UAB and VMI.
Look for more turnovers. Count on more injuries. Write it down that, like last season, Meeks, Patterson, Harris and others will spend time in the training room that should be spent on the hardcourt.
We have a highly paid coach who simply does not understand the word:BALANCE.
You work out. You practice your living asses off. BUT, then you rest and recover and fine-tune your fast-twitch fibers and motor genius skills to the task of defeating, if not humiliating, your inferior opponent.
If our Coach continues to wear down each and every athlete under his command to the point where they have no chance to exhibit their innate abilities, do not be surprised, shocked or outraged when basketball teams we have barely heard of come into OUR house and humiliate our vaunted Wildcats.
Billy, this one is ALL on you.
There is nowhere to run or hide.
Let them rest and recover and they will blossom and excel.
Continue to treat every day like a boot camp and you will be on your way sooner than later and our historic program will be all the better for your absence.
Wake up and taste the Dr. Pepper, Coach.
That deer-in-the-headlights look on the faces of our players does not coordinate with the blue and white on their much-ballyhooed uniforms.
“Fatigue makes cowards of us all” — Vincent Lombardi
Billy, do you understand what that means?
I didn’t think so.

by ukfastcat on Nov 15, 2008 2:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

ukfastcat is correct

I’ve been saying the exact same thing since this time last year. BCG is completely clueless about overtraining. I’ve tried to tell the people over on Wildcatnation and they just don’t get it. Not only is he overtraining them they’re getting into the habit of going at a slower pace so they can survive the workouts. I have no doubt that they’re working hard in practice but they’re working hard for too long which prepares them to play for 120 minutes, not 30-35 per man.

You nailed it with this post. I’m glad somebody else gets it.

by Danvillecat on Nov 15, 2008 11:08 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

As much as I respect this opinion ...

… I think it is incorrect.

I played basketball in my time (still do, in fact), and many times played twice per day. With the pace of the modern game and the number of commercials and timeouts, I don’t accept the argument that they are fatigued by a game day practice.

Ukfastcat makes a compelling argument, but my experience suggests that it just isn’t much of a factor.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 15, 2008 11:49 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

My Experience With A Stepdaughter Who Played 10 Years Of Pro Basketball Paints Another View

It is possible for coaches to overwork their players in practice and workouts.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 12:18 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

From WebMD.com "Aerobic Exercise for Teenagers"

But Avoid Overtraining
While regular aerobic exercise is necessary for optimal health, overtraining increases your chance of injury or even illness. Symptoms might include a high resting heart rate, sleeping difficulties, and exhaustion. If your exercise seems excessive, cut back on the time and/or the intensity. Be kind to your body and give it a chance to recover.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 12:21 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Gillispie ...

… is not overtraining this team. The UK team showed no signs of extraordinary fatigue. They just played poor basketball.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 15, 2008 12:27 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fatigue

This one was missed defensive assignments, not fatigue.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Nov 15, 2008 1:52 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 15, 2008 2:08 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

The Two Are Not Mutually Exclusive

Fatigue can contribute to missed assignments.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 5:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

That's true ...

… of course. I don’t believe that was the case here, except maybe at the very end where everyone on both teams were sucking wind due to the ridiculous pace.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 15, 2008 5:54 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

true, but...

they probably weren’t fatigued from the start.

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Nov 15, 2008 7:05 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

kentucky 103 gardner-vmi 111

it is getting a little old being upset like this and 1 thing i know for sure we all bashed poor tubby smith, but i never remember him getting beat by gw, sdu , and vmi or any team like them but im not ready to bash billy g yet i mean give the guy a break dont be like ut fans here and try to throw the coach under the bus because the players screw it up. yes, i agree we are better than vmi and we have more talent, more size, and more speed. but every team that comes into rupp arena has 1 of 2 things on their mind: dont get blown out by thirty or we are going to play our ass off and try to pull a huge upset and it looks like gardner-webb and san diego and vmi thought they could go in there and win and they did. its like everbody circles uk on the calendar when the schedules first come out. and why does kentucky let 1 man beat their brains in. loften for ut a couple of times vaden for uab last year and 1 of those twins chavis this year for vmi . i mean my god if a mans on fire hes on fire and either you put a lock down defender(your best defender) on him or hes going to keep kicking your ass, and for some reason players or coaches dont do a damn thing about it , and there is more than the names i mentioned i cant count how many. and yes i agree 103 points is great without 26 turnovers, a boat load of missed freethrows and against a better team. michael porter is horrible i mean everytime he gets the ball its almost a gauranteed turnover or a badly missed three and did i miss the memo or am i way behind but where in the hell is derek jasper. and god help us against unc next tuesday. dont get me wrong i think hansbrough or not we have an outside shot of pulling a vmi on them but we are definitely going to have to play better defense than last night that was just rediculous. my grandma could make some those shots we gave them last night. please someone tell me what happened to kentucky after they came all the way back to take a 2 pt. lead and then basically gave vmi 9 points that i counted a wide open 3 and 3 wide open layups it makes me sick . thank god kentucky has a big football game tonight against vandy which i think we’ll win and tennessee we’re beating you this year you can make book on that people. but i do think kentucky in basketball will make the ncaa tournament for the 18th staight time after last season it cant get much worse and its kinda hard to keep us out of the tourney after last seaon. dont worry or panic yet its just november if their playing like this in february then we got problems. yes it is another tough loss to take but remember if we can get through last season i think we can take this one on the chin and bounce right back up.

by wild on Nov 15, 2008 7:27 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Tubby

I didn’t bash him so we ALL didn’t.

His UK teams had disappointing L too.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 12:24 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

You have got to be kidding me.

That did not happen. Not again. No way.

Orange and Blue Hue: The World through GATOR-colored Glasses -- http://www.orangeandbluehue.com

by Gatorpilot on Nov 15, 2008 7:34 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

as for the rough training how do think championships are won. how do you think rick patino trained. just ask pelpherey, farmer,mashburn, feldhouse, and the boys they’ll tell you and if it wasn’t for the “overtraining” as you called it we wouldn’t have even came close to beating duke in ‘92 and remembe 2 championships in ’96 and ’98 and in ’98 rick patino might as well have won it we all know that was his team he built it. and he almost won it in ’97 and if it wasn’t for hard training kentucky wouldn’t have even made that comeback last night.

by wild on Nov 15, 2008 7:46 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Pitino

His Boston Celtics won no championship in 1998.

The premise that he might have won in 1998 after losing in 1997 with a stronger team and weaker final opponent is simply inaccurate.

The FULL credit for the 1998 title goes to the UK coach that year, not the Celtics coach that year.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 12:20 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Will agree with 40

It may have been Pitino’s players… but only Tubby could have coached that team to the championship.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 12:23 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Disappointing L Indeed

I’m not sure Patterson is fully recovered.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 9:14 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Meeks' limp

Was there any word in the post game press conference on Meeks limping?

I know I thought the season ended right then and there when I saw it.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 9:28 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Ouch

A headline on ESPN’s frontpage says:

VMI hands once proud Kentucky stunning loss.

Emphasis mine, but that stings. The worst part of it is the fact that I find nothing inaccurate in that statement.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 9:44 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

The Uniforms are to Blame

My dad, a UK alum and huge fan, and I were talking about the game earlier this mourning. One of the things he was really upset about is how the players must have been tripping over the uniforms and looked like clowns out on the court. I’ve seen the photos and such from events and I think those pants are just ridiculously big. Its absurd.

by McDawg on Nov 15, 2008 10:07 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Uniforms

They aren’t as bad in action as they look in the still photos… but they are too big.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 10:20 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Introduction

Patterson 3-4 FG in 27 min
………boys let me intoduce you to Patrick Patterson, he’s on our team, get him the damn ball.

by TrueBlue92 on Nov 15, 2008 10:41 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Gutwrenching, horrible loss

That said, Tubby had some teams start out 1-3 and 2-4 and such IIRC (against harder competition, true) that turned out to be pretty decent teams.

Lots of talent, but no one is playing basketball. Ugh.

by EEWildcat on Nov 15, 2008 10:49 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

I Don't Think It's Fair To Compare The Two (Yet)

But the 2001 UK team had more talent and depth than the 2009 team.

It won the SEC title, SECT championship, and made Sweet 16.

Finished 24-10 after starting 3-5.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 15, 2008 11:19 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Well, that was a kick in the groin

I’m much more rational now than I was last night, but I still don’t see any excuse for how UK played. I was relegated to listening to the radio, but I have a question for those who watched the game. In the first half, did they fail to get the ball to Patterson inside because of how he was defended, or because they got so caught up in the pace they didn’t look for him?

One more thing: last year’s team would not have been capable of catching up to VMI to take a lead. That’s not a silver lining or a moral victory or any other trite positive phrase, just an observation.

"That's not a Sherman tank, it's Frank Thomas!" - Monkeyball

by JLeverenz on Nov 15, 2008 10:50 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

There was never anything resembling an offensive set

Part of the problem was PPat’s foul trouble. He got two quick ones and sat. Otherwise, they were taking shots early in the clock without ever establishing a low post game at all.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 10:59 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Definitely the pace

No idea why they didn’t slow the pace down and try to run some sets. Of course, trading three-for-two with them wouldn’t have been good either, but it beats the heck out of trading three for a turnover!

by Acdixon on Nov 15, 2008 11:09 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

But some of that is on Patterson too

If he’s the leader of this team, he’s got to demand the ball. He seemed completely passive.

C! A! T! S! CATS! CATS! CATS!

by NYCCats on Nov 15, 2008 11:31 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

JMO

lots of problems last night,not just one thing.First,VMI brung alot of intensity to both sides of the ball.Jumped all over us,and we could not match the energy level.Players were out of positon,not coming out aggressively covering the perimeter,leading to open shots,and they were hitting EVERYTHING early in the game beyond the arc,really a thing of beauty to watch.You could see the frustration in our players.VMI controlled tempo entire game.BG either made no adjustments or the players did not listen,not sure which.I figured they would wear down,and they did,but UK still not good enough to win.I was just curious,looked up the Sagarin ratings, VMI #277.I thought Miller showed alot of promise last night,and Meeks scored 39,but even today,this is about the most ASHAMED of a loss in Rupp in my life.

by -Zoso- on Nov 15, 2008 11:50 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Fast play

The result of not having a steady option at the point, which hurt us last year too. You can have all the athletes you want but you have to have someone who can get them the bal without all the turnovers. Plus you have to defend the three point shot better, granted VMI will probably never shoot that well again, but still.
Fans also have to take some blame. Teams aren’t scared to play at Rupp anymore, it’s boring and quiet, even when the team is playing well. The energy at Commonwealth usurps Rupp, which is sad considering the history.
Billy G will take a lot of flack, and should. But I think VMI deserves more of the credit for shooting unbelievably. I don’t think many teams could of beat VMI last night the way they were shooting. It was encouraging to see Meeks play well.

by daniel81 on Nov 15, 2008 11:36 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Energy at Rupp

Don’t you think that some of that has to do with style of play?

In our glory days at Rupp, we were running up and down the court with fervent energy. Its hard not to stand up and cheer at that kind of game as a fan. Under both Tubby and Gillispie we have played a more deliberate style of basketball. It can be just as (if not moreso) effective, but does not encourage fan participation the way a fast paced style does.

For evidence, look at last night’s crowd during our 16-0 run to close the gap in the game. That place was rocking.

Of course its difficult, its a shortcut... if it was easy it'd just be "the way."

by chirop1 on Nov 15, 2008 12:19 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

I have had time ...

… to analyze this in detail now. New post up top.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 15, 2008 11:51 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Unbelievable!

What disappoints me the most is our perimeter defense and turnovers. Everyone knew VMI was an up-tempo, free shooting basketball team. Open three pointers all night. Where was the defense opening the game and coming out of the half? Twenty point deficits are hard to overcome at any level!

I thought the turnover bug was a thing of the past. These guys are elite athletes with a lot of skill. When will they decide to value the ball?

by Iam4UKinMI on Nov 15, 2008 12:20 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

Read ...

… my analysis above and you will have your answers.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 15, 2008 12:28 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Kentucky

Well, I will agree with alot of of your post but I disagree with the black eye part. The black eye is not there yet. Lets see what happends on Tuesday. Black eye’s take more then one game this early in the season. Its just one game. The very first game. VMI was a good team last night. I don’t think its time to turn throw the towel in yet. We will be fine.

by tenken on Nov 15, 2008 6:50 PM EST reply actions 0 recs

A lot of redemption ...

… could be had by upsetting UNC, that’s for sure.

A Sea of Blue -- Kentucky Sports for the Discerning Fan

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 15, 2008 7:36 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Simple

If you cant guard them in a man to man….change to another defense (I would have played a match-up zone). If the object of the game is to work your offense to get matchups that are favorable to your team…then seeing Patterson guarding Sparks 22 foot from basket showed which coach won that battle……Beucomp out-coached Gillespie…simple as that. Come on Billy G don’t be so indignant that you will win “my way or lose” instead of putting the kids in a situation that they can win with. Such as how the Keydets coaching staff had their players. Coach to win instead of coaching to teach lessons.

by east ky blue blood on Nov 16, 2008 1:31 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

while this sucks...

i’ll take a loss in the first game, as long as it means a win in the last game. :-)

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Nov 16, 2008 2:16 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Only Happened Once

UK lost its first 2 games in 1975-76 season but rallied to win their last 10 games that year (and NIT title).

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 16, 2008 8:27 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

ok

i hope it happens again.

GO BIG BLUE!! GO BIG BLUE!!

by UKWildCatFanatic on Nov 16, 2008 10:06 AM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Why?

Why are so many people trying to predict this season on one loss at the beginning of the season. Yes I know we are Kentucky, but for me as a former ball player, you work out the kinks in the first few games. It could be a precursor to a bad year but I highly doubt it. I do hate that NC is the second game. That is scarey to me and I don’t understand scheduling that, but I still believe that these Cats can do well. BG showed us last year that he can make a TEAM. Sometimes you just must have faith in your coach. What he did with Kentucky last year-he deserves some patience. Oh and don’t go saying stuff about our record and first round loss but this team was in turmoil after Smith left. They were in turmoil going into SEC play. He turned it around. After all the crappy rumors spread about him durningt the losing part……yall he deserves our patience.

by tenken on Nov 16, 2008 11:25 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Politely But Firmly Disagree

UK was in turmoil last November and December (2007) because of the coaches THEN, not the prior staff.

UK responded nicely during SEC play but THAT (12-4, 75% W-L record) showed their capabilities.

UK struggled in postseason games (L in SECT and NCAA) due to injuries.

The 2008 Cats were capable of better than 18-13. They didn’t get there because of poor coaching early on and injuries later on.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 16, 2008 1:01 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Not a smack

This wasn’t a smack on Tubby saying that it was in turmoil. Smith is a fine coach. I was sorry to see him leave. Whenever you have such a difference in coaches personalities you are going to have some turmoil. Its inevitable. That is why contrary to popular opionion,,, what Smith did his first year hear was outstanding.

Considering the injuries………..the completly different style of previous coach versus new coach,…..the crap handed to BG by the fans……..tougher practices……..no real leaders(yes crawford and bradley become leaders but before they weren’t) I would say we were pretty darn lucky to be 18-13 considering where we were in January.

by tenken on Nov 16, 2008 10:17 PM EST up reply actions 0 recs

Turmoil

I don’t remember much (if any) in 1972, 1985, 1989, or 1997 in terms of having a new coach.

The 2008 UK team was EASILY capable of 25 W. The OOC schedule was not strong and 0-2 in postseason games was UK’s worst effort since 1987.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 17, 2008 7:05 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

Are you serious?

Ok, I wasn’t alive in 1972. But hall was an assistant with Rupp wasn’t he? Wasn’t he being groomed for the job? 1985……Don’t remember. I was eleven and had moved to Flordia, so I don’t remember the transition but 1989? Are you serious? Farmer almost quit. He hated Pitino that year until he learned it was good for his bball skills. 1997, again former assistant coming to UK. Little bit easier transition. Have you played bball under two different coaches? I have. There is uncertainty there. There is turmoil. Its called transition. Its part of the process. You could not have more different coaches then BG and TS. My whole point is this ……..last year was a pass and we didn’t underperform for a “normal” program. For Kentucky yes but any other school it was a “successful” season. Who got coach of the year in the SEC? And why?

by tenken on Nov 17, 2008 10:00 AM EST reply actions 0 recs

1972

Rupp recommended Gale Catlett (not Hall) as his successor. But the transition to Hall was seamless anyway. SEC title in 1972 (Rupp) and 1973 (Hall).

No turmoil in 1985. UK was 32-4 in 1986 with virtually the same team that was 18-13 in 1985.

1989, no turmoil with Pitino. It was positive from Day 1 and only got better until he left. The turmoil existed in 1988 and 1989 under Sutton (of course) but that left when he did.

No one in 1997 had played for Tubby Smith in 1990 or 1991. No turmoil for the players. 35-4 in 1998 compared to 35-5 in 1997 despite losing 4 key players from 97 team.

Gillispie was terrible in OOC play, then very good in SEC play, but not good in postseason games. I doubt he’ll brag about the 2008 season anytime soon.

by FortyYearCatFan on Nov 17, 2008 5:14 PM EST reply actions 0 recs