A Sea Of Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Spencer Hall's Sports Meme Power Rankings

Is football recruiting getting better at Kentucky?

In the many times we have discussed football here at A Sea of Blue, I can't think of a single time the need to upgrade our recruiting efforts in football wasn't raised as a major component of increasing the success of our football program.  So I began wondering, "Is the coaching staff upgrading our recruiting efforts?"  So I gathered data using the Rivals recruiting service and analyzed it in aggregate.

First off, a discussion about recruiting service "star" ratings.  Debate has raged for years about how viable and accurate recruiting "star" rankings are as a qualitative measure of player skill.  There have been many analysis done, and there is evidence to support both sides of the debate.  Instead of recreating that debate for you, I'll summarize some recent work done by excellent bloggers on this point.

First of all, we have a blog post done just yesterday by Messenger at Wildcats Thunder blog analyzing football recruiting services star rating.  Messenger looks at the "star" ratings of some recent UK players since about 2002, and demonstrates that a number of players rated 2-star and below have gone on to All-SEC careers here at UK.  Messenger takes the position that the people doing the rating of the recruits often are echoing the work of others, and have never actually seen these recruits in action:

Star-divide

In fact, many of their "star" ratings may simply reflect what they have read about the kids on the internet! IMO, that is the "dirty little secret" behind internet ratings. For that reason, their evaluations of HS prospects are not as fundamentally sound as evaluations done by UK's coaches (who have actually seen these kids play football).

Messenger may well be right about this, and based on the evidence he provides, his argument seems pretty defensible.  But there is another side to the coin.

Outside the Sidelines, an Alabama blog who's owner has now joined our SB Nation sister site Roll 'Bama Roll did this analysis on whether or not recruiting rankings matter.  In it, he does an empirical analysis of the subject, looking at how each team performed versus its rank on the recruiting services.  His conclusion:

It's quickly obvious that there is a very high correlation between good recruiting classes and future wins. If you run the numbers, there is a .8 correlation between Scout.com average recruiting finish rankings and future winning percentage rankings. And there's actually a little higher correlation for Rivals, Inc. as it crunches out at a robust .818.

In addition, OTS did yet another analysis, specifically looking at 4 and 5 "star" recruits.  Once again, he crunched the numbers in his spreadsheet, and came up with this conclusion:

Much like with recruiting rankings, as you can see, where you rank in terms of how many four and five star recruits you sign, compared to the rest of the conference, strongly correlates with overall winning percentage on down the road.

To be specific, the correlation between recruiting rank and winning percentage rank was a robust .7202. That's not quite as strong as the .8 that we saw between overall team recruiting rankings and winning percentage, but it's still very strong.

So there you have two points of view about the value of recruiting rankings as a measure of player quality.  Where you shake out on this kind of depends on how you look at the world in general -- those who prefer an analytical approach are likely to feel drawn to what OTS did, and those who operate more on "feel" will probably prefer Messenger's take.  I am not going to say that one is better than the other, just that I think it's wise to take both into consideration.  Messenger makes a good case that lower ranked players can become high-quality SEC players, and OTS demonstrates a statistical correlation essentially between "star" ratings and success on the field.

Now that we have disposed of that, let's take a look at how all this applies to UK's current recruiting, and my question "are we upgrading our recruiting?"  What I have done for my first spreadsheet is look at 4 SEC schools, including Kentucky, that I consider "peer" institutions when it comes to football.  Some may make an argument that I haven't chosen well, and I'll try to defend that as best I can, but first, let's look at 2008's data:

School Total recruits offered Rivals "star" rating


5* 4* 3* 2* 1* NR AVG
Ole Miss 203 3 42 92 46 0 20
Points 15 168 276 92 0 10 2.76
South Carolina 114 6 37 63 6 0 2
Points 30 148 189 12 0 1 3.33
Kentucky 54 0 9 22 19 0 4
Points 0 36 66 38 0 2 2.63
Arkansas 87 0 19 47 17 0 4
Points 0 76 141 34 0 2 2.91









Points - 1 point for each "star". NR players get 0.5 points each

As you can clearly see based on offers so far, Kentucky lags the other schools in overall "star" value.  Now, whether or not you buy Messenger's argument or that of OTS, it is obvious to me that the coaches DO care about the star rating based on this data.  Note that Spurrier, in particular, is very averse to recruiting players under 3 stars.  Only Ed Orgeron at Ole Miss is anywhere near as willing to go after sub-3 star recruits as Kentucky, 33% to 42% for UK.  Please do note that these are "offered" recruits only, and some of them have accepted scholarships from teams other than the ones above.  I included them because, as we all know, football revolves heavily around one signing period, and lots of minds get changed between now and then, so verbals are not even considered.  But I should point out that most of the verbals that have been given to schools other than above have been by highly ranked players, and my guess is that these are somewhat more likely to hold up.

So let's look at UK actual recruiting over the last 6 years.  I included the two Morriss years just for reference, but we do have to keep in mind that he was badly hampered by sanctions visited upon the program by the NCAA due to violations discovered under the Mumme regime:

Coach Year Total 5* 4* 3* 2* 1* NR Avg
Brooks 2007 29 0 1 9 18 0 1
Points 0 4 27 36 0 0.5 2.33
Brooks 2006 30 0 3 10 17 0 0
Points 0 12 30 34 0 0 2.53
Brooks 2005 26 0 0 4 22 0 0
Points 0 0 12 44 0 0 2.15
Brooks 2004 28 0 1 10 16 0 1
Points 0 4 30 32 0 0.5 2.38
Morriss 2003 22 0 1 9 12 0 0
Points 0 4 27 24 0 0 2.5
Morriss 2002 15 0 1 1 12 1 0
Points 0 4 3 24 1 0 2.13










Points - 1 point for each "star". NR players get 0.5 points each

So there it is, the numbers according to the Gospel of Rivals.  I think I can make an argument that our recruiting, at least by using Rivals star rankings, has not improved significantly under Brooks' stewardship.  Kentucky manages to get very few 4-star recruits, and virtually no 5-star recruits in the last six years.  When we take it all into consideration, it really isn't a surprise that we often find ourselves the doormat of the SEC, or that we have rarely won more than one or two conference games in recent years.  In order for us to truly move up from the lower tier, I would argue that our recruiting success has to show a star ranking average of at least 2.5 or higher, year in and year out.  We have only accomplished this two years out of the last six.

Is Brooks going to be able to get the job done?  I don't know.  It looks to me like he is rather behind right now, as we don't even have one 3-star commitment for 2008.  I'm sure we will get some, but by all appearances, Brooks hasn't really upgraded our recruiting at all.  Maybe he has upgraded our coaching -- we'll have to wait and see about that, but from a recruiting standpoint, it looks to me like things haven't changed.

0 recs  |  Comment 20 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

Stars
I think that you are correct.  We cannot improve further without recruiting better players.  Just looking at the top dogs in the conference - they have more 4-5 stars than we have 3's and above.  Maybe we have better evaluators than they have, get serious.  If ours were that good, they would have been hired away by now.  Money talks.

What does it take to get higher ranked players?  Win the games, convince recruits that we are for real.

If you were arrested and charged with being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?

by Seymour on Aug 26, 2007 9:59 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I agree.
We must at least get more 3-star recruits. It isn't that hard to recruit 2-stars in the SEC, but we get entirely too many for my comfort. Spurrier, for example, barely even considers 2-star and below. I don't think we are to that point yet, but you would like to see at least a 50/50 mix.

by Truzenzuzex on Aug 26, 2007 10:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Morris
I have too much basketball on the brain.  When I read "I included the two Morris years just for reference" my initial reaction was "What does Randolph Morris have to do with football recruiting?"
Looking for a rock to wind a piece of string around.

by JLeverenz on Aug 26, 2007 10:12 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Haha!
I know, and basketball coverage will still continue. Although unfortunately, there just isn't all that much to comment on basketball wise right now. But soon, more will be out there.

by Truzenzuzex on Aug 26, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Morriss
Two esses in Guy Morriss...

The Online home of Big Blue Nation ...

by JL Blue on Aug 26, 2007 5:12 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thanks, JL ...
That's what he gets for only staying around 2 years -- a misspelled name.

by Truzenzuzex on Aug 27, 2007 8:46 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

FB Recruiting
I measure recruiting success, not by an internet site or a magazine, but by wins on the field of play. Whether it be basketball, football, or baseball.

Perhaps someone would like to research how highly rated Rafael Little, Moe Williams, Artose Pinner, Jacob Tamme, Bill Ransdell, George Adams, or any other present or past UK star.  

Yes, I believe ratings serve a purpose, but to rely completely on the star ratings is short sighted, and not without flaws.

Excellent piece, Tru.

by Ken Howlett on Aug 26, 2007 11:46 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well ...
I think Wildcat Thunder illustrated your point perfectly -- several All-SEC performers for the Cats have been under 3-star level recruits, like:

*Glenn Holt - 2 stars
*Mike Aitcheson - 2 stars
*Roger Williams - 2 stars
*Trevard Lindley - 2 stars
*Aaron Miller - 2 stars

You could also make the case, obviously contingent on this year's success, that Brooks is doing more with less than other coaches in the SEC.

Immediately, though, that makes me thing "Just think what he could do if he upgraded the talent."

by Truzenzuzex on Aug 26, 2007 11:54 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Re: Tru
I think the UK Head Coach better be a master of finding a diamond in the rough.

Unforturnately, UK is not in the same position as UL 10 years ago. Drilling inferior competition on Thursday nights is not an option for UK. UK must compete, both on the field, and in the living room, against the best coaches and programs in America. Until UK begins to win 5 and 6 games in the SEC, they will struggle at the dinner table.

But if they can't sign the 4 and 5 star studs, how do they compete on a regular basis. It's a "chicken or the egg" quandary.

Finding the Derek Abneys, Craig Yeasts, Marc Logans, etc. is the key to UK's success AT THIS POINT. If the recruiting staff continues to uncover unheralded, but talented players, winning seasons will continue to happen, hopefully resulting in the 4 and 5 stars giving UK more than a giggle. Bowl Games, and national TV exposure are what turns the heads of recruits, and their mommas. Also, staying off of the NCAA's Infractions Committee radar would help tremendously.

We are only beginning to make headway. The race for respectability and top talent is a marathon, not a dash.

by Ken Howlett on Aug 26, 2007 12:20 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Addendum to the above post.
If one wants proof positive that there are many, many players available who go unrecognized by the major powers, just research the rosters of NFL teams. They are full of players who attended schools whose football tradition isn't exactly gilded.

The list of unheralded high school players who now play for pay in the NFL is long and illustrious.

by Ken Howlett on Aug 26, 2007 12:31 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

We really ...
don't have to upgrade recruiting all that much to reach U of L's level.  It isn't as if U of L is competing with Alabama, Southern Cal and Florida for recruits -- they aren't.  U of L's recruiting is not as good as South Carolina's, if you look at the star level only.  

Looking at South Carolina, you could say that they are somewhat underachieving for the level of recruits they get.  Given Spurrier's reputation, that had better change pretty soon.  

Of course, playing in the SEC is vastly different than playing in the Big East.  But my whole point here is that UK doesn't have that far to go to reach U of L's level.  If we could put three bowl seasons together in a row, we may be able to achieve a measure of parity with Louisville, recruiting-wise.  But even if we do, it will do no more than make us a middle of the pack SEC team.

Which, frankly, would be quite an accomplishment.

by Truzenzuzex on Aug 26, 2007 1:29 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree 100 percent Mr. Howlett....
I've even posted on here before that I think ratings are way overrated.

Actually if you look at the recruiting charts closely enough there have actually been more 2 to 3 star recruits that have succeed here than 4 to 5 star recruits.  

Well at least one 4-star recruit panned out for us Thank God:  Andre Woodson.

Other than him really U of Kentucky hasn't really had much success with the 4 and 5 star athletes that have played football for us.

I know most will disagree with me on this but I think we are doing just fine thank you very much with the recruits we already have.

That said I do wish we would land some 4 to 5 star recruits from time to time.  In order to succeed in the SEC we will need to least recruit a least a handful of them occassionally to least be somewhat more competitive in the brutal SEC.

by ukcatfan191 on Aug 27, 2007 12:47 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tru
Exzcellent post but I disagree that Brooks has done nothing to upgrade recruiting. If that were the case I dont think last years results would have been what they were.

I think Brooks does a great job finding the diamonds in the rough not doing more with less as some have put it. Does he have much more improvement to make? Totally but I dont think you can got out there and get the five stars without some basis of success, which he is building. The true test for this question will come next season once Woodson and Co. have gone on the the NFL.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Aug 26, 2007 1:55 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Well ...
I don't think I said that he had "done nothing" to upgrade our recruiting.  What I said was that based on the Rivals star ratings, he hasn't really upgraded it on paper.

That doesn't mean he isn't trying, and other factors come into play.  He has clearly done reasonably well at uncovering "diamonds in the rough", which don't show up on my analysis.

Recruiting has not slipped, by any means, and it could be argued without much effort that it is becoming more consistent.  Prior to the last couple of years, it was up and down pretty substantially.

If he can beat the "every third year" curse that seems to be developing and produce a good class this year in the 2.4-2.5 range using my scale, one could argue that recruiting is moving in the right direction.  We should never have classes below 2.3, in my opinion.

If he can develop a consistency that has eluded UK over the last 7 or 8 years, we will improve on the field if not necessarily in the record.  The SEC is a brutal place to try to improve a program, a point I have made before.  I think we should start with consistency.

by Truzenzuzex on Aug 26, 2007 3:11 PM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Tru
I would agree with your assesment according to the rivals scale. Im not big on the whole star system becuase I think it misses a ton of good players. I do think that we need more 4-5 stars though becuase players ranked that high are obviously good and we need more of that. I dont think that the higher rankings are really that off I just think a lot of good players are missed.  

When you morris my first thought was of Big Rand too.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Aug 26, 2007 7:24 PM EDT reply actions   0 recs

I think the big thing ...
about 4 and 5 star players is that they are often ready to play in the SEC right away.  3 stars and below usually need a redshirt year.

If you look at Auburn's recruiting, you'll find that it is a cut below Alabama, Florida, Tennessee and LSU.  Yet over the last 5 years, Auburn has surpassed all SEC teams in conference victories.

It's not all about recruiting highly ranked players, but they do help a lot.

by Truzenzuzex on Aug 27, 2007 8:59 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Recruiting
Winning is the one aspect of recruiting we haven't touched on as of yet.

If UK performs well this year, and by "well", I mean 7-8 wins plus a Bowl victory, then I believe recruiting success will follow. The job that Brooks and Co. have done to this point leads me to believe a triumphant season will open the floodgates, resulting in an avalanche of positive national press. ESPN, instead of showing how many straight years UK has lost to UT, will be trumpeting UK's victory over the loud, disdainful, orange clad Rocky Toppers. (Gawd, I hate that song!) Instead of ESPN going on and on about how UK has never beaten a Spurrier coached team, they will have bountiful highlights of the ol' ball coach chucking his visor into the 10th row in response to another UK touchdown.

This, and more, will supply UK with the ammunition needed to sway some fence-sitting 4-star, mega-athlete to wear blue and white, instead of less tasteful colors.

Pete Caroll, be afraid, be very afraid.

by Ken Howlett on Aug 27, 2007 9:47 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Recruiting...
...  it's the toughest thing to improve for teams which don't offer a marquee opportunity for big-name prospects.

Andre Woodson going into the NFL as a first-round draft pick will award some attention to Kentucky and also paint the picture for recruits that UK is a viable football school.

Probably the number one, most common refrain amongst football recruits is, "I want to to a school with a great NFL pipeline."  That's why Florida State recruits well despite not having the greatest facilities or even playing in a very competitive conference.  They send a lot of guys, especially on defense, to the NFL.

Same for Florida (both sides of the ball, though.)  And LSU.  And Auburn.

Not that many get piped out of Kentucky at present.

It's an incremental process and will require more wins, on a more consistent basis, before Kentucky can land more of those elusive 4 and 5 star recruits.

Orange & Blue Hue http://www.orangeandbluehue.com

by Gatorpilot on Aug 27, 2007 9:58 AM EDT reply actions   0 recs

Consistency ...
to me, is the key.  If we can find a way to get ourselves consistently in the middle of the SEC pack, we can incrementally upgrade our recruiting.

by Truzenzuzex on Aug 27, 2007 10:44 AM EDT up reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

An exciting community-driven SBNation blog, by and for fans of the Kentucky Wildcats.

Community Guidelines
[UPDATED 3/31/2009]
Start posting about the Wildcats »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recommended FanPosts

Small
Guess The Outcome Game 2009 #00

Recent FanPosts

Harold-the-dog_small
Dawgs vs Cats Prognostications
Small
Milestones
Home_view_small
For Those That Complain
Small
GOG 2009 #04
Small
another Big Blue basketball news site.
128_small
The SEC In Bowls
Small
Small Rotation...
Small
GOG 2009 #03
Miners__2__small
UK football notes, 11/18
Uk_logo_blue_small
The Tournament Lasts All Year This Year

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

Twitter Widget -- Follow me!


Managing Editor

Tru_small Truzenzuzex

Editor

Small Ken Howlett

Author

Diane-black_heels_small BigSkyCat

Official Partner of CBS Sports