A Sea Of Blue: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: Want to help build SB Nation? We're hiring! Bar-right-arrows



The Hyping of Leonard Washington and Other Basketball Trivialities

This whole Leonard Washington thing is getting way out of control.

I have been carefully watching some of the larger UK sites and I am a bit baffled.  By the conversation that is taking place, you would think this Washington guy is Patrick Patterson on steroids.  Now, nobody understands how the Big Blue Nation can get wound up about recruits like I can -- I have been living in this world for quite a while, and I truly understand how people can get carried away.

But there are a couple of things we should be aware of here.  Leonard Washington has a checkered past of starting fights and general troublemaking.  His academics, as of now, are not in order.  He is only ranked a 3-star on recruiting services, which we all know doesn't mean that much, but reality must intrude -- he is unlikely to be a program changer.  Many people are hyping him as a low-post beast, but the truth of the matter is, he is only 6'6"/225, and although those are Chuck Hayes-like vital statistics, he is still very raw by all accounts.  He may be slightly more able to make an impact than AJ Stewart, but only slightly.

Would Washington help us?  Maybe, maybe not.  His attitude doesn't appear to be what UK would want, but that could be turned around by determined coaching.  The thing is, he just isn't really good enough to get all this hype.  He may develop into a UK player one day, but as of right now, he wouldn't really improve our recruiting class at all, and in my opinion would make a limited impact on the team.  Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy who scouts player via news and Internet reports -- I have never seen him play in person and don't know what kind of player he would be.

Still, for a team that is as short on players as Kentucky is at the moment, it's easy to understand why so many UK fans want Washington to come.  Personally, I would rather save the scholarship for a better player.  Your mileage may vary.


As we cruise along toward our next game with Liberty after a 14 day lay-off, some news is beginning to trickle out.  Last night on his call-in show, Gillispie said the following:

  • Players:
    • Jasper is running some, and improving.  Running yesterday for the first time in a while.
    • Harris is doing better, Meeks is out and will be out for a while;
    • Some bumps and bruises, but players are handling it well;
    • Carter is doing better, but has a long way to go and is nowhere near where he needs to be.  Not about condition, it's all about toughness and competitiveness;
    • Meeks -- 4-6 weeks.  Won't play him injured.  Not going to push him and risk losing him.
    • Seniors -- "selfish" criticism is unjust.  Thinks they are trying too hard, and try to do too much.  Doesn't look like selfishness to the coach;
      • Joe is coming along, missed a lot of conditioning, behind.  Trying to figure each other out.  Still haven't seen results he wants yet.
    • Patterson -- going to be great.  Very smart & tough, pays attention to coaches and very smart.  Great leader, but has been deferring to seniors.
    • Alex Legion -- Going to be a good player, knows how to score and has improved tremendously.  Has a long way to go, but is getting better.
    • AJ Stewart -- needs to pay more attention to detail.  Very athletic, competitive.
  • Liberty:
    • Likes to control tempo;
    • Likes to back door;
    • A lot like G-W [Nooo! - ed.]
  • Team:
    • The team is improving in all aspects of the game;
    • Noted we are shooting free throws, and said they don't practice them much.  Said it was mostly mental.
    • Player rotation -- wants to get into a fixed rotation, but now isn't the time -- don't know enough.
    • Practice, practice, practice over the Holidays.  Never reach the 20 hours allowed, mainly because of class schedules.
    • There is no one particular thing the team is working on, there are "about a million".
    • Working on overall improvement.  Doesn't think that players are reverting to previous system.  Thinks they go back to competitive roots, and we just aren't competitive enough.
    • Preventing G-W type breakdown requires ball pressure, and forcing the ball into particular lanes.  Practices for particular teams as well as just running UK's defense.
  • General:
    • Gillispie generally in favor of early season tournaments like Maui Invitational.  Thinks they have allowed too many exemptions, and are allowing too many events to start too soon.  Doesn't think it's good for college basketball.  Would prefer to start after 5 weeks of practice.  Thinks he might be in minority, but believes that the season is just too long in the first place.
    • Pressure of coaching at Kentucky -- Thinks people "overplay" how much pressure there is.  Thinks coaches are tougher than many people give them credit for.  Understands fan interest, passion and responsibility, but feels no pressure.
    • His contract -- Personal matter, keeping it that way.  No comment.
    • Rupp Arena crowd being too sedate -- should be sedate when we lose like we did.  Confident they will be loud when time comes.
  • Recruiting:
    • Will be signing other players this year, but they will not be playing this year.  [re: Washington? -ed.]
    • Excited about DeAndre Liggins and Darius Miller.  Targeted both guys.  Says Millier is maybe 6'8" now and very strong.  Darius does a lot of extra practice, Gillispie loves that.
    • DeAndre Liggins -- can play a bunch of positions, not a good shooter yet.  Very competitive, loves UK tradition.

So just in case you haven't had a chance to listen to the show, there you go.  You can listen to the program here if you have the time.

0 recs | Comment 34 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

G Show
I listened to a lot of the show and i really think the season is going to turn out ok after the GW debacle.

I do think the BBN overplays the whole "pressure coaching at UK" card. Every coach is pressured to win especially at the major D-1 programs. I think the whole pressure situation is a self fulfilling prophecy type situation and the BBN needs to cool it with this particular issue.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Nov 20, 2007 1:46 PM EST   0 recs

Panic
Many of the BBN are freaking out about the injuries and the immediate need. Tru you said it, weigh the real ramifications of

a) spending a scholarship
b) risking a "team turmoil" with a bad egg

We need to let BCG keep working and if we take lumps this year tough. We all thought we would anyway. Like the football cats, we went in praying for 7 wins and when we went 6-1 we only WANTED more so now the season is a bust.

Please! Fair weather fans!

by wilson452 on Nov 20, 2007 2:09 PM EST   0 recs

Thank you.
I thought I was the only one who thought the breathless anticipation of a kid who can't even get ELIGIBLE for college was a lot over the top.

I mean, he's no Ramon Harris. Doesn't everyone remember how he was going to save last season?

The Online home of Big Blue Nation ...

by JL Blue on Nov 20, 2007 2:54 PM EST   0 recs

Tru.... Regarding Washingtion
You said, "The thing is, he just isn't really good enough to get all this hype.  He may develop into a UK player one day, but as of right now, he wouldn't really improve our recruiting class at all, and in my opinion would make a limited impact on the team."

Here's the single-most important question behind the question regarding why so many are following Washington so closely:  If he were to come onboard (a la Razor Ramon), would he be an upgrade over the Coury Flurry?  Over Perry Stevenson?  Over our four-buttcheeked Center-by-Folding-Chair Bench Committee?

I would venture a guess and say YES.  We have all witnessed what our frontcourt is (and isn't) for this season; and outside of Patterson, it's downright frightening.  So the thought of adding another quality post player to the mix is worth getting excited over.

Is LW the second coming of Sir Charles?  Probably not.  Is he (at least) the second coming of Kovotney Barber?  Yep.  

That's plenty to have me salivating at the thought of an early recruiting Christmas present under the tree before SEC play begins.

by vickster3 on Nov 20, 2007 2:55 PM EST   0 recs

Well ...
I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this.  Washington isn't an upgrade over anyone, particularly since he won't be in playing shape in the foreseeable future.  By the time he is, the guys you dissed there in your second paragraph might be quite a bit better.

Give me a better player.  We are not ready to contend for the title this year, anyway -- too much youth, new system, too many injuries that are likely to hold players back all the way to February.  Besides, I am concerned about Washington's attitude and his grades.  We can do better, and he won't help enough to justify his recruitment at this point.

I say, take the long view.

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 20, 2007 5:31 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Lw
You are wrong about Leonard.  If you would do a little research about why he was ranked a three star you would change your opinion.  I found that he was much higher ranked until he commited to USC.  They stop ranking you at that point.  He didn't grow as tall as they thought he would so they down graded him as well for that.  He also did not hob nob with the people who do the rankings and they did not like that and snubbed him for that.  Marc Maggard was told this from a ranking official.  Leonard plays way bigger than he really is.  Is is as good as PP and way better than any other post person we have now.  He is a beast.  Take a second and watch some tape on him if you cant see what this guy has you are crazy.  Where ever he goes he will be a force.  

by patrijak on Nov 21, 2007 4:01 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Also
He has been said to be as good as anyone in the class...Anyone.

by patrijak on Nov 21, 2007 4:03 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

This is simply ...
 ... not true. Where has anyone not named bigblueballs or something similar said this in print?

Several high school evaluators have noted he has skills and baggage. That you have decided based on some web clips he is the second coming is not the same as this statement actually being true.

By the way, every high school star looks like a man-imal in edited clips. Even Shagari.

The Online home of Big Blue Nation ...

by JL Blue on Nov 21, 2007 10:04 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re:
It is not true that the services quit ranking a player when he orals. At least not any services that I know of.

In my opinion, Washington is not in the same class as Patterson, ability wise.

I do like his "physicality" though.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 21, 2007 1:18 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

vickster
has a point.

If it wasnt for the complete ineptitude of the rest of our frontcaourt save Patterson the BBN wouldn't be as excited about this guy.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Nov 20, 2007 3:05 PM EST   0 recs

Washington
My two cents.  Washington, right now, is better than 60% of our current team....better than Harris, better than Porter, better than Stevenson, better than Coury, better than Carter, better than Williams, and better than the walk-ons.  Starting fights?  Okay, let's get a guy who has an attitude.  I think of Jamal Magloire.  Also, BCG tried very hard to get him this past summer and unfortunately, the academics did not work out.  Tipton mentions the negative...Maggard, who has watched him continuously says he is better than what people think.  If you have not seen him play, then you need to trust BCG.  BCG has signed 2 five star and 2 four star players since arriving.  He knows what he is doing.  If LW is offered, it will be worth it...if not, then he is not good enough. Again, my two cents worth.  

by Chuck Alexinis on Nov 20, 2007 7:12 PM EST   0 recs

Honestly
I think, were Washington to become UK's newest addition, BCG wouldn't have much of a problem with stripping the boy's attitude problems.

However, I don't think he'd step up and be, offhand, a better player than Coury.

| ride | the | lightning |

by paralyzer on Nov 20, 2007 8:24 PM EST   0 recs

"honestly" response
Please remember that Coury is a walk on....A WALK ON!!  He may have played well in pick up games and in early games, but if he was that good he would have been a scholarship player to begin with........yes, Washington is a better player than Coury.  No comparison really.  None.

by Chuck Alexinis on Nov 20, 2007 9:08 PM EST   0 recs

Comparison
CA while I might agree with you on most things there really is no comparison between Coury and Washington.

LW hasnt played one second of D1 ball so I really dont think you can tell if he would bring more to the team at this juncture than Coury would. Down the road though Im sure he would be much better.  

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Nov 20, 2007 9:46 PM EST   0 recs

Comparison
Wrong.

by Chuck Alexinis on Nov 21, 2007 4:35 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Coury Update
...well....tonight Coury did very little....AJ Stewart got more playing time.....ouch.

by Chuck Alexinis on Nov 22, 2007 8:39 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

I think ...
AJ really earned that time.  He had a breakout, and I hope this means he will be a factor in coming games and not a bench warmer.

If so, that would be a great thing.

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 22, 2007 11:47 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

The Great Debate
What a terrific back and forth.

What's interestsing about this debate is that both "sides" are, to a point, right. In my opinion.

I have seen maybe, 15 minutes of video footage of Washington. I have read many pundits thoughts on his ability, and liabilities.

From this I have gleaned that Washington has a non-stop motor, and is very physical. He is a bit undersized for a 4, as Tru points out. He is though, an interior presence, who doesn't wander outside often.

If, and that's a big if, he were to get his academic house in order, would he provide help to this years team? I would have to say yes, for a couple of reasons: He is much more of a physical presence than Stevenson, Stewart, or Coury. He would offer superior rebounding skills, as well as an ability to create space for himself when attacking the boards. He uses his body very well, somewhere along the line a coach has taught him well in that area.

Secondly, I think this team could use a dose of attitude. And I'm not talking Bradley "attitude".
I mean a take no prisoners, take no grief, kick some ass, attitude. Washington could be the impetus for an attidue adjustment within the team.

But, he could also create more problems than he solves. He could become a cancer to the development of the team. Does the name Carruth mean anything to anyone?

That's the dilemma Clyde is faced with. Talent wise I think he has the "goods". Tim Floyd at USC would not have offered Washington if he couldn't play. Floyd is in the middle of an overhaul at SC, good players are all he's after, and he's having pretty good success signing a good number of them. So for me, the question is not about his basketball abilities, it's about his questionable decision making up to this point.

Refusal to reenter a high school game, starting a brawl that nearly became a riot. There have been a few indiscretions along the way.

But, which one of us is without fault?

Does Clyde think he can handle Washington, does he think Washington will bend his own "will" to meet the coaches demands? Does he even want to deal with these issues, on top of all of the other problems facing him at this moment?

Those are questions only Coach Gillispie can answer.

At this point it seems as if Gillispie is backing off Washington. If that is how he plays it, I have no problem. He's the only one of us who can make judgments regarding character issues among possible recruits. He's much closer to the situation than any of us.

He also knows his own limits as a coach.  

If Gillispie feels the kid is worth giving a chance to, I'm all for it. If he decides to pass, I won't have a problem with that either.

I truly believe the UK fan base, myself included, are going through a bit of wish fulfillment regarding this recruit. We want badly for the kid to be a help to this years team. He offers hope, where before, there was a black hole.

If he doesn't come, which he probably won't, Stevenson, Coury, and Stewart simply need to grow fundamentally, and take in the coaching of the staff. All three have shown signs of being solid contributors. Consistency is what is lacking. But, hell it's only mid-Novemnber. Practice started 5 weeks ago today.

Patience. Patience. Patience. I know it's difficult, but try we must.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 20, 2007 11:39 PM EST   0 recs

Gillispie HAS to back off of Washington....
until he is 100% qualified and verified by the clearinghouse.  No scholarship offer can be extended.  So we'll just have to wait and see if/when LW "officially" becomes recruitable what UK will do.

by vickster3 on Nov 21, 2007 9:58 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Backing Off
There is no rule that states a coach "must" back off an unqualified recruit.

I have heard, and read quite a bit about Gillispie's reservations regarding Washington. I think the combination of his size, and problematic past have resulted in a less than rosy outlook regarding Washington's UK future.

His academic issues are also a concern, but I have seen many, many players who were academic question marks become solid to great students once they are introcduced to a structured scholastic environment.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 21, 2007 1:24 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Awesome
Very well said!  

by patrijak on Nov 21, 2007 10:15 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

True
It has been reported on several occasions in print!  That Washington is underrated and the reasons why.  M. Maggard is a scout and has reported such.  Wait and see he is for real.

by patrijak on Nov 21, 2007 10:12 AM EST   0 recs

He has too much baggage ...
for my money, regardless of his skills.

I am not sold on Tim Floyd as an evaluator of talent, and the fact that he offered Washington doesn't carry much weight with me.

Washington's game is ill suited for the SEC at his size.  I remember endless bitching about offering power forwards who were undersized for the SEC, and this, to me, is just a Marshall Moses redux.  I admit to have been one of those who really wanted Moses, but events have proven his detractors more right than Moses' supporters.  Since then, I have become a bit more skeptical of hype.

As JL said, everybody looks like a world-beater in Internet footage.  But Gillispie knows what he is doing, and if he think Washington is worth the gamble, I'm all in.  I just think we can do better.

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 21, 2007 10:38 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Floyd's Skills
Tru, I certainly respect your questioning Floyd's evaluation skills, but when one looks at what he accomplished at Iowa St., and what he is doing at USC, impressive is the word that comes to my mind.

Moses was never considered a Top 50 player. While Washington, at one time, was a Top 25 prospect.

His game being considered "ill-suited" for the SEC is a bit too broad of statement for me. There have been a myriad of examples of undersized, yet physically gifted 3's and 4's experience success in the SEC. But conversely, there have been many in the same category who did not enjoy success.

One never knows until they lace them up. But one hopes the coach involved is talented enough to tell the difference between a legit player, and a pretender.

I tend to agree with your thoughts regarding finding someone "better". By better, I mean without the baggage, and with 2 extra inches added to the height column.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 21, 2007 1:34 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Fair points, Ken, but ...
Tim Floyd did not impress me with the Bulls, and I will reserve judgment on his talent evaluation.  He is a good recruiter, though -- more so because of his former Association connections.

You are right that there are a number of examples of undersized power guys in the SEC.  The problem is that they are becoming increasingly rare.

As for his top 25 status, how does one drop from a 5 star to #117 in one year?  I'll tell you how -- he was being dominated by bigger, quality four men in the camps.  I doubt that he is underrated at all, personally.

Washington is an athletic talent, no question.  He could be a coveted football recruit with his athleticism and size, but he is in love with basketball.  The problem is, he doesn't have the skills or size to play his position in college right off the bat.

As Chuck Hayes has amply demonstrated, the right attitude and fearless determination can overcome both skill and physical limitations in basketball.  Far be it from me to say Washington won't succeed wherever he ends up, that is folly and demonstrably wrong.  

But I do think we can do better.  There are always quality players who decommit for various reasons after the season.  Patience, I think, is better.

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 21, 2007 3:25 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Re: Tru
I, like you, don't think Washington is underrated.

What precipitated his drop in the ratings is up for debate, but I think a combination of what you write, and his serious lack of solid decision making, contributed to his free-fall.

It may not be true in this instance, but rucruiting gurus tend to look at what a kid can't do, rather than what he can do. As an example, Chris Lofton rose no higher than the mid-130's in most recruiting ratings. (After his senior year he was 88 in Rivals) The Morrison kid from Gonzaga never entered the Top 200.

The knock on Lofton was his lateral speed. Or lack thereof. Never mind the fact that the kid could, and can, shoot better than 99.99% of all guards in the country. Morrison's diabetes may have played a part in his low ranking, along with his slow foot speed. Never mind the fact that he has an uncanny talent at putting the ball in the basket, which is only the object of the game.

The gurus seem to have gotten their respective rankings right this year. Love, Mayo, Beasley, Koufos, Singler, Rose, Bayless, and Gordon all seem to be tremendously talented players. One and done will be the theme of this years Top 10 class. Singler may be the only one of that group who matriculates to his sophomore year.

To be honest, as much dialogue that has taken place on this subject, it is probably all for naught. I don't see Washington ever playing for UK. My hope is that he doesn't attend Ole Miss, and become a great player. That would suck.

The fact that Gillispie did not offer Stutz tells me he isn't interested in filling the void, just for the sake of filling the void. He is looking for a particular type of player. Perhaps a player better suited to come in right away and give help. This is why I feel he did not offer Pettigrew. I wanted Pettigrew in a UK uniform (For a variety of reasons), but his ability to make a difference in the near-term was not as evident, as say Legion and Patterson.

My rule is to trust the coach, until he gives me reason not to.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 21, 2007 4:08 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

I ...
don't think I can disagree with any of that, Ken.

Well done.

by Truzenzuzex on Nov 21, 2007 4:55 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

LW Response
We can do better for sure.......but not in the short term.  At UK, everyone expects wins and progress in a very short period of time.  So, right now, LW brings a great deal to the table.  If he does not qualify and becomes a 2008 recruit, then there are other options.  I say we take him if he becomes available as there has been little progress so far with Stevenson and Carter (who psychologically may be ruined).  

Hey......this has been a great thread!  Great job.

by Chuck Alexinis on Nov 21, 2007 4:38 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Different .. .
... saying he is underrated and saying he is "possibly the best player int he class" are totally different things, hence my point being made.

And as for Maggard, whom I do not know and certianly appreciate how hard he works, calling him a scout is akin to calling me a porn star.

I may have sex from time to time, but there's no one there holding the boom mic.

The Online home of Big Blue Nation ...

by JL Blue on Nov 21, 2007 10:50 AM EST to parent up   0 recs

Boom mic?
That is all overdubs by ugly people with sexy voices.

And for the record, I say take a pass on the kid and wait for a legit big timer for the seat.

by wilson452 on Nov 21, 2007 12:42 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Great analogy
That may be the best analogy I've ever heard!

by chirop1 on Nov 21, 2007 5:16 PM EST to parent up   0 recs

Washington
Im not really hung up on LW but I dont mind the fact that he would be a 6'6 power forward in the SEC.  I dont know much about him but if G want him Im all for it  I would take a rough tough undersized power forward any day of the week in college basketball. I think we are getting hung up on the size issue because if this kid wants it he could really bring something to the table. The qualifying statement is that he has to want it though.

RE: Morrison. He can put the ball in the basket but his ranking may have had to do with the fact that he cant keep a fifth grader from scoring on him.

I dont know that any of you can say LW is overated  underated or that we can or cant do better. Has any of us really seen this kid play enough to know? I say we forget him for now and wait and see if G brings him in or not.

DEEETROIT BASKETBALLL!!!

by davw83 on Nov 21, 2007 5:34 PM EST   0 recs

Re: davw
I'm not sure how much defensive ability plays into player rankings. 95% of college freshmen have no concept of defense.

But, what you write speaks to his slow-of-foot disease.

by Ken Howlett on Nov 21, 2007 6:42 PM EST   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

An exciting user-driven SBNation blog, by and for fans of the Kentucky Wildcats.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Me_small
Legion coming back??
Small
A Favor To Ask (For Erik Daniels' Mom)
Bball0_small
Patterson now projected as a lottery pick
Small
Looking for Game Film from 1986-1987
Small
Where have all the "players" gone?
Small
Looking toward January . . . a change in the lineup Part II
Dj_small
UK vs. U of L/Momentum Shifter
Small
Turnover Improvement: Real or Mirage?
Small
Dan Issel Was Not UK's First Choice In 1966
Img_1595_small
Opinions on whether Slone might transfer

Post_icon New FanPost All FanPosts Carrot-mini


Managing Editor

Tru_small Truzenzuzex

Editor

Small Ken Howlett

ad

Site Meter